We are starting a game soon where my artificer is going to be the main tank. Its a party of 4, with monk, rogue and warlock as the other classes.
I'm starting to plan which sub-class to take at level 3 to act as the tank. I initially really liked the look of the armorer sub-class, but am now finding it hard to look past the battlesmith as a better tank class. The main advantage of armorer is full plate, being able to don armour as a single action, armour cant be removed, mirror image and thunder gauntlets imposing disadvantage. Disadvantage of the sub-class is the fact that you cant use picked up magic weapons and cant infuse the gauntlets until level 9, which reduces damage output.
The Battlesmith has a respectable AC (half-plate and 14 Dex), has an extra HP sink/ target (steel defender) that also imposes disadvantage (as a reaction - not needing to hit), has shield spell and heroism and can use any magic weapons picked up. The defender also cant be surprised and makes for a good guard. The ability to repair with mending after every fight is also great, which means it starts every fight at max HP.
I'm also planning on a 2 level dip into Wizard (war magic) once the armorer gets to level 5.
I'm just not sure being able to wear full plate and thunder gauntlets is good enough to outweigh the Battlesmith advantages and was wondering if anyone has any insights/experiences to share. Also please vote on your preferred tank sub-class, just so I can see what people think.
Yeah, my backstory can go either way. Just wanted to make sure that, as the only tanky character and with little healing in the party, I'm picking a sub-class thats going to do the job.
Yeah I would go Battlesmith...Armorer is interesting thematically but ultimately is not the best if you want to use the guardian feature as a tank.
I actually like the Armorer infiltration option myself.
Honestly of the Tasha's options the Twilight Cleric ends up being the best tank option overall....that channel divinity is just bonkers for THP and helping the entire team be better tanks.
If I had to chose between Battlesmith and Armorer to be a tank, for that group, I would chose Battlesmith.
You'll still be able to get amazing AC as a Battlesmith
You can use Booming Blade with any magical weapon (and get +INT to att/dam) to help control the battle field, more-so if you get War Caster.
Not trying to start the "Thunder Gauntlets can/not be used with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade" argument again. Just stating the Battlesmith versatility in weapons is greater than the Armorer.
The Steel Defender can be another punching bag, another pawn to help control the battle field, and helps grant Disadvantage to attackers
As another creature, the Steel Defender can also attune to magic items which may be enhance the Steel Defender further.
Heroism at L3, Warding Bond at L5, and Aura of Vitality at L9 help mitigate damage when healing is otherwise sparse. Shield is also great but you said you will be dipping Wizard so figured you may get Shield with that if you go Armorer.
Arcane Jolt at L9 will also help mitigate damage (or recover as Stoutstein said)
The Armorer is better at keeping an enemy's attention on you because of the Thunder Gauntlets, and you can stack both Mirror Image and Blur to keep yourself, which is great. And you can switch back and forth to Infiltrator like Stoutstein said so if Stealth is a thing for your group then Armorer may be better. My opinion is just that for a traditional tank role the Battlesmith has an edge over Armorer due to the healing/damage mitigation it provides.
Another factor is what level this game is planning to reach. Personally I think the battle Smith is a better subclass in the first half of the game but the armorer takes the cake later on with it's extra infusions and revolving advantage/disadvantage ability of the infiltrator model.
I definitely agree with this point. I think the Armorer at level 9 gets a huge power boost while the Battle Smith I think just maintains being pretty decent at all levels.
Although lets not discount Thunder Gauntlets especially if you end up playing with multiple melee allies.
With this party composition I'd be more worried about recovery than mitigation. Based on that the battle smith edges out due to action friendly healing and the extra HP sink with the SD.
I also agree with this point too. Having more healing might be better for your team comp.
The table I play at rules a SD can’t use magics items.
The stat block describes the SD as a construct rather than a creature, which is great for not getting exhausted and being immune to charm and poison but also means they can not use or attune to magic items, I’m ok with that personally and I think it’s a fair trade off.
I mean table rules are table rules, but the Steel Defender IS a creature and a construct. Those two are not mutually exclusive. A creature is about anything that moves. Construct is just a type of creature like beast or humanoid.
Yeah, I should have clarified that my meaning was to just check with your DM as mileage may vary!
I’ve seen a few examples where ‘constructs’ don’t benefit from the same things ‘creatures’ do such as they can’t be healed but they can be mended etc. Just thought I’d mention it as I’ve seen that as a common interpretation of a construct and wouldn’t want anyone being disappointed in the long run finding that view point out the hard way.
Both are good, I prefer the Battle Smith since it opens up for a better action economy with the Steel Defender. I'd also say that the BS is slightly more SAD if you want to use actual magic weapons and not just what you get from your subclass.
As for multiclassing, ask yourself if you really want to. The artificer is one of the classes that doesn't need to and that loses out on a lot of fun stuff each level. Not getting the capstone is a great loss. If you just want the bonus to initiative the alert feat is better.
Personally, i'd go Artillerest as tank. Turrets are great for drawing mobs to you, and add survivability from damn near infinite temp HP.
Between BS and Armorer, i prefer BS. SD can help a lot with survivability and adds a little extra damage. If your toon is a small creature you can ride it as a mount and get it a saddle of the cavalier.
Armorer is a defensive tank. Between Sanctuary, Blur and Thunder Gauntlets, anything you hit will be suffering disadvantage on future attacks, but your damage output stays a bit lower than the Battle Smith. Battle Smith has more weapon options, plus smite(s).
Armorer is a defensive tank. Between Sanctuary, Blur and Thunder Gauntlets, anything you hit will be suffering disadvantage on future attacks, but your damage output stays a bit lower than the Battle Smith. Battle Smith has more weapon options, plus smite(s).
But your defender invokes DIS with it's reaction anyway...
Also you get Shield Spell and artificer already gives you sanctuary and blur so really it's not that much better and battlesmith is better offensively.
Truth is Armorer just got the shaft and it's only really worth it for the versatility of the armor change and extra infusion
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We are starting a game soon where my artificer is going to be the main tank. Its a party of 4, with monk, rogue and warlock as the other classes.
I'm starting to plan which sub-class to take at level 3 to act as the tank. I initially really liked the look of the armorer sub-class, but am now finding it hard to look past the battlesmith as a better tank class. The main advantage of armorer is full plate, being able to don armour as a single action, armour cant be removed, mirror image and thunder gauntlets imposing disadvantage. Disadvantage of the sub-class is the fact that you cant use picked up magic weapons and cant infuse the gauntlets until level 9, which reduces damage output.
The Battlesmith has a respectable AC (half-plate and 14 Dex), has an extra HP sink/ target (steel defender) that also imposes disadvantage (as a reaction - not needing to hit), has shield spell and heroism and can use any magic weapons picked up. The defender also cant be surprised and makes for a good guard. The ability to repair with mending after every fight is also great, which means it starts every fight at max HP.
I'm also planning on a 2 level dip into Wizard (war magic) once the armorer gets to level 5.
I'm just not sure being able to wear full plate and thunder gauntlets is good enough to outweigh the Battlesmith advantages and was wondering if anyone has any insights/experiences to share. Also please vote on your preferred tank sub-class, just so I can see what people think.
Totally the last sentence Stout said. You won't go wrong with either (apart from the comparably small HP pool the Artificer has). I'd suggest looking up the builds of Yurei (click me I'm a link) and maybe mine (I'm a much more humble link since it's self advertisement, but you still might want to click me) from the Throwdowns. There is a lot of evil shit in there.
Yeah, my backstory can go either way. Just wanted to make sure that, as the only tanky character and with little healing in the party, I'm picking a sub-class thats going to do the job.
Yeah I would go Battlesmith...Armorer is interesting thematically but ultimately is not the best if you want to use the guardian feature as a tank.
I actually like the Armorer infiltration option myself.
Honestly of the Tasha's options the Twilight Cleric ends up being the best tank option overall....that channel divinity is just bonkers for THP and helping the entire team be better tanks.
I have toyed with the idea of a forge cleric to tank instead, but havent played an artificer yet and like the look of it.
If I had to chose between Battlesmith and Armorer to be a tank, for that group, I would chose Battlesmith.
The Armorer is better at keeping an enemy's attention on you because of the Thunder Gauntlets, and you can stack both Mirror Image and Blur to keep yourself, which is great. And you can switch back and forth to Infiltrator like Stoutstein said so if Stealth is a thing for your group then Armorer may be better. My opinion is just that for a traditional tank role the Battlesmith has an edge over Armorer due to the healing/damage mitigation it provides.
I definitely agree with this point. I think the Armorer at level 9 gets a huge power boost while the Battle Smith I think just maintains being pretty decent at all levels.
Although lets not discount Thunder Gauntlets especially if you end up playing with multiple melee allies.
I also agree with this point too. Having more healing might be better for your team comp.
All in all I think you'll be happy either way.
I didnt even think that the steel defender could use magic items...
Which means the Homunculus can also attune to magic items. And Tiny Servant.
The table I play at rules a SD can’t use magics items.
The stat block describes the SD as a construct rather than a creature, which is great for not getting exhausted and being immune to charm and poison but also means they can not use or attune to magic items, I’m ok with that personally and I think it’s a fair trade off.
I mean table rules are table rules, but the Steel Defender IS a creature and a construct. Those two are not mutually exclusive. A creature is about anything that moves. Construct is just a type of creature like beast or humanoid.
Yeah, I should have clarified that my meaning was to just check with your DM as mileage may vary!
I’ve seen a few examples where ‘constructs’ don’t benefit from the same things ‘creatures’ do such as they can’t be healed but they can be mended etc. Just thought I’d mention it as I’ve seen that as a common interpretation of a construct and wouldn’t want anyone being disappointed in the long run finding that view point out the hard way.
Both are good, I prefer the Battle Smith since it opens up for a better action economy with the Steel Defender. I'd also say that the BS is slightly more SAD if you want to use actual magic weapons and not just what you get from your subclass.
As for multiclassing, ask yourself if you really want to. The artificer is one of the classes that doesn't need to and that loses out on a lot of fun stuff each level. Not getting the capstone is a great loss. If you just want the bonus to initiative the alert feat is better.
Personally, i'd go Artillerest as tank. Turrets are great for drawing mobs to you, and add survivability from damn near infinite temp HP.
Between BS and Armorer, i prefer BS. SD can help a lot with survivability and adds a little extra damage. If your toon is a small creature you can ride it as a mount and get it a saddle of the cavalier.
Armorer is a defensive tank. Between Sanctuary, Blur and Thunder Gauntlets, anything you hit will be suffering disadvantage on future attacks, but your damage output stays a bit lower than the Battle Smith. Battle Smith has more weapon options, plus smite(s).
But your defender invokes DIS with it's reaction anyway...
Also you get Shield Spell and artificer already gives you sanctuary and blur so really it's not that much better and battlesmith is better offensively.
Truth is Armorer just got the shaft and it's only really worth it for the versatility of the armor change and extra infusion