2 by 2 for me. Most of the class is solid. but the pseudo caster alchemist needs more tools, more slots, or more elixir/action economy for that. (Alternatively it could lean in the opposite and get more cantrip friendly combo damage)
armorer imo is great but does have some trouble with too little durability for the "durable subclass" (i.e. not enough free temp hp nor something liek shield spells)
I like the Artificer concept, but the alchemist feels like the worst subclass (though other people have said it plays better than it looks on paper). Still...
I remember an old unearthed arcana that has an alchemist that was pretty different and had the ability to create alchemist's fire as well (or a spell-like effect that replicated it, can't remember the details). I think this version may have needed a lot work but I did like the concept. Then when the actual alchemist came out it was....even worse.
Changes I would like for the alchemist:
Get rid of the random element. Random can be fun in some cases, but it doesn't make sense here at all.
The ability to create flasks that can be thrown for damage. Examples are alchemist's fire, flasks of acid, smoke bombs etc. These should scale in some way
More uses of the ability to create potions, flasks and elixirs.
1) Note that only the free flasks are random. When you make additional flasks by spending your spell slots you get to choose the effect. 2) They can make alchemists fire etc just fine using the rules in Xanathar's. You can make one dose of {thing} per long rest without a check, and can probably ask your DM to make a check for more at a time.
I know the random element is only part of it. What I'm saying is: get rid of that random part. Its annoying mechanically - I want to always get what I want and not be subjected to an unwanted chance effect. It makes no sense thematically - an alchemist spends every day slinging random **** together and still can't work out how to guarantee an effect?
And by alchemists fire I didn't mean the standard item version that any proficient character can make with gold and time. I wasn't clear on this. I meant that the Alchemist subclass can produce a variety of throwable flasks as well as imbibable potions. And that these flasks can produce effects identical to alchemists fire (except scalable) as well as other effects like acid bombs, smoke bombs etc
I know the random element is only part of it. What I'm saying is: get rid of that random part. Its annoying mechanically - I want to always get what I want and not be subjected to an unwanted chance effect. It makes no sense thematically - an alchemist spends every day slinging random **** together and still can't work out how to guarantee an effect?
They DID work out how to guarantee an effect. Did you misread what I wrote?
And by alchemists fire I didn't mean the standard item version that any proficient character can make with gold and time. I wasn't clear on this. I meant that the Alchemist subclass can produce a variety of throwable flasks as well as imbibable potions. And that these flasks can produce effects identical to alchemists fire (except scalable) as well as other effects like acid bombs, smoke bombs etc
The way to get scaling bombs etc is by refluffing your spells. You're casting them from the alchemist's supplies, so that's what you're doing when you cast firebolt or flaming sphere etc.
2 by 2 for me. Most of the class is solid. but the pseudo caster alchemist needs more tools, more slots, or more elixir/action economy for that. (Alternatively it could lean in the opposite and get more cantrip friendly combo damage)
armorer imo is great but does have some trouble with too little durability for the "durable subclass" (i.e. not enough free temp hp nor something liek shield spells)
I like the Artificer concept, but the alchemist feels like the worst subclass (though other people have said it plays better than it looks on paper). Still...
I remember an old unearthed arcana that has an alchemist that was pretty different and had the ability to create alchemist's fire as well (or a spell-like effect that replicated it, can't remember the details). I think this version may have needed a lot work but I did like the concept. Then when the actual alchemist came out it was....even worse.
Changes I would like for the alchemist:
Get rid of the random element. Random can be fun in some cases, but it doesn't make sense here at all.
The ability to create flasks that can be thrown for damage. Examples are alchemist's fire, flasks of acid, smoke bombs etc. These should scale in some way
More uses of the ability to create potions, flasks and elixirs.
1) Note that only the free flasks are random. When you make additional flasks by spending your spell slots you get to choose the effect. 2) They can make alchemists fire etc just fine using the rules in Xanathar's. You can make one dose of {thing} per long rest without a check, and can probably ask your DM to make a check for more at a time.
1) Spending a spell slot to forgo the randomness is a spell slot tax that straight up feels bad when compared to how the other Artificer subclasses interact with their 3rd level subclass feature.
An Artillerist doesn't need to expend a spell slot to choose what kind of Eldritch Cannon they summon the first time in a day. An Armorer doesn't need to expend a spell slot to choose which kind of Armor Model they make when they first activate their Arcane Armor or change it's type the first time in a day. A Battlesmith doesn't need to expend a spell slot when they command their Steel Defender to take an action instead of rolling dice to determine it's first action of a day randomly. The Battlesmith also doesn't need to expend a spell slot to choose which weapon to wield instead of rolling a 1d6 to choose their first weapon of the day randomly.
None of those three subclasses have to do that to CHOOSE what to do with the first day freebie they get with their 3rd level subclass feature. Why? Because that requirement would be completely ludicrous game design in the context of those abilities.
Why then, does the Alchemist, already a half caster trying to act like a full caster, need to expend a spell slot in order to make the first effect of their subclass feature a choice instead of a roll of the dice? This has NEVER been adequately answered for me. The closest response I get is "Oh, you could come up with some sort of flavor to explain the randomness" or "Oh, the breadth of your options totally justifies your mechanic being random" which is an assessment I've never agreed with.
THIS is what people mean when complaining about the randomness. It's about the insult to injury of a hastily designed mechanic. It's almost NEVER about not reading the feature description well enough. And I'm sick of the reading that explanation whenever it comes up. As if the only reason we can be dissatisfied with this mechanic is that we just aren't reading the text closely enough.
Anyway, sorry to explode. I know you likely meant well in your explanation.
Spending a first-level slot for a guaranteed 10 minutes of concentration free flight feels bad? Not buying that, sorry.
I'm not saying that the Alchemist is perfectly designed or anything, but expecting an alchemist class without any randomness at all feels to me like expecting a Wild Mage with no randomness. Mad science and concoctions doing unexpected things feels pretty thematic.
Look, I'm not saying you can't complain, complain away. I was just objecting to the "they didn't figure out a way around the randomness" statement, which is just false.
Spending a first-level slot for a guaranteed 10 minutes of concentration free flight feels bad? Not buying that, sorry.
If you feel "10 minutes of concentration free flight that's 1/3 of average walking speed for one creature" is fundamentally worth more than "1 hour of concentration free 1d8 + INT temp HP for all creatures within a 10 foot radius that refreshes every turn for the duration" that's a fair opinion to have. Not one I share, mind, but fair.
But one of those effects costs a 1st level spell slot to guarantee (the first time in a day). The other one doesn't. That's the part that feels bad. The structure of how the mechanics operate feels bad. The effects of some specific elixirs feel fine, good even. Especially when you cherry pick the best ones. :P
In fact the freedom to cherry pick 1 of them per day without having to expend a spell slot to do so would feel very good indeed.
I'm not saying that the Alchemist is perfectly designed or anything, but expecting an alchemist class without any randomness at all feels to me like expecting a Wild Mage with no randomness. Mad science and concoctions doing unexpected things feels pretty thematic.
I've stated the following elsewhere but if the Experimental Elixir were MORE random, like Wild Magic Sorcery table roll a d100 levels of random, I'd be way more excited for Experimental Elixir! If they had gone that route, where perhaps only a small subset of the results (say 6 of them) could be guaranteed with 1st level slot. That would feel justified.
But 1d6 is a half-assed and disappointing amount of random results that might as well not exist.
If you feel "10 minutes of concentration free flight that's 1/3 of average walking speed for one creature" is fundamentally worth more than "1 hour of concentration free 1d8 + INT temp HP for all creatures within a 10 foot radius that refreshes every turn for the duration" that's a fair opinion to have. Not one I share, mind, but fair.
All the temp HP in the world can't get you or your allies past a chasm or wall, especially not while concentrating on something else at the same time. There's more to this game than combat.
If you feel "10 minutes of concentration free flight that's 1/3 of average walking speed for one creature" is fundamentally worth more than "1 hour of concentration free 1d8 + INT temp HP for all creatures within a 10 foot radius that refreshes every turn for the duration" that's a fair opinion to have. Not one I share, mind, but fair.
All the temp HP in the world can't get you or your allies past a chasm or wall, especially not while concentrating on something else at the same time. There's more to this game than combat.
And likewise having one creature being able to fly sans concentration isn't that much help when you're underground in a ten foot hallway. Look at that we can both pick the most optimal scenario that makes the other option look better in context! (this is pointless)
And likewise having one creature being able to fly sans concentration isn't that much help when you're underground in a ten foot hallway. Look at that we can both pick the most optimal scenario that makes the other option look better in context! (this is pointless)
Scenarios where 10 minutes of flight are good, especially at level 3 when very few other classes have it, are pretty common.
And likewise having one creature being able to fly sans concentration isn't that much help when you're underground in a ten foot hallway. Look at that we can both pick the most optimal scenario that makes the other option look better in context! (this is pointless)
Scenarios where 10 minutes of flight are good, especially at level 3 when very few other classes have it, are pretty common.
Cool. I'm just not interested in a forever back and forth of more and more specific scenarios.
So, if I may surmise your stance from your arguments here: The d6 roll is mechanically justified for experimental elixir because you feel one of the options is too good to be allowed to pick without expending some kind of additional resource other than the resource granted by the feature? If instead it were some other weaker option would you still be opposed to the concept of the Alchemist being able to pick the free elixir without rolling? Or if there were fewer options, etc. Because for me, it's about the mechanic more than then the specific things it gets you.
So, if I may surmise your stance from your arguments here: The d6 roll is mechanically justified for experimental elixir because you feel one of the options is too good to be allowed to pick without expending some kind of additional resource other than the resource granted by the feature? If instead it were some other weaker option would you still be opposed to the concept of the Alchemist being able to pick the free elixir without rolling? Or if there were fewer options, etc. Because for me, it's about the mechanic more than then the specific things it gets you.
What I actually said was that some degree of randomness is thematically appropriate for a mad scientist archetype. I'd be fine with buffing any/all the options and retaining the free-elixir-is-random element to preserve that theme, but buffs to the elixir aren't actually needed; the elixir isn't the Alchemist subclass's main problem. You have the means at your disposal to pay for specific effects if you want them, and the price for doing so is appropriate.
Ignoring the flight option since you're stuck on that, the remaining ones are:
Longstrider (empirically worth a 1st-level slot)
2d4+Int healing (actually slightly better than 1st-level Cure Wounds)
Alter Self (10 minutes, but concentration-free)
Shield of Faith (Half-strength, but concentration-free, stacks with Infusions)
Bless (Single-target, but concentration-free, stacks with Infusions)
So which of those are you saying isn't worth spending a 1st-level slot on?
So, if I may surmise your stance from your arguments here: The d6 roll is mechanically justified for experimental elixir because you feel one of the options is too good to be allowed to pick without expending some kind of additional resource other than the resource granted by the feature? If instead it were some other weaker option would you still be opposed to the concept of the Alchemist being able to pick the free elixir without rolling? Or if there were fewer options, etc. Because for me, it's about the mechanic more than then the specific things it gets you.
What I actually said was that some degree of randomness is thematically appropriate for a mad scientist archetype. I'd be fine with buffing any/all the options and retaining the free-elixir-is-random element to preserve that theme, but buffs to the elixir aren't actually needed; the elixir isn't the Alchemist subclass's main problem. You have the means at your disposal to pay for specific effects if you want them, and the price for doing so is appropriate.
Ignoring the flight option since you're stuck on that, the remaining ones are:
Longstrider (empirically worth a 1st-level slot)
2d4+Int healing (actually slightly better than 1st-level Cure Wounds)
Alter Self (10 minutes, but concentration-free)
Shield of Faith (Half-strength, but concentration-free, stacks with Infusions)
Bless (Single-target, but concentration-free, stacks with Infusions)
So which of those are you saying isn't worth spending a 1st-level slot on?
I'm stuck on that??? You're the one who brought it up the flight elixir in the first place!
I never said ANY of those things weren't worth spending a 1st level spell slot on. Holy shit.
They're all worth spending a 1st level spell slot! It's just that I feel the freebie shouldn't be random.
Naming the feature "Experimental" is not enough to justify it being a 1d6 roll.
I wasn't intending to say ANY bloody thing about any of the specifics elixirs, but you drew the argument into those weeds. I've said repeatedly said. It's about how the mechanic works that makes it feel bad.
Look I'll quote myself:
THIS is what people mean when complaining about the randomness. It's about the insult to injury of a hastily designed mechanic.
But one of those effects costs a 1st level spell slot to guarantee (the first time in a day). The other one doesn't. That's the part that feels bad. The structure of how the mechanics operate feels bad. The effects of some specific elixirs feel fine, good even.
Because for me, it's about the mechanic more than then the specific things it gets you.
Lo and behold. I meant exactly what I typed.
In my opinion Experimental Elixir ought to work in one of two ways.
A) Go whole hog down the Mad Scientist route (More randomness than a single d6 roll, possibility of accidents, explosions, etc.)
OR
B) Remove the unsatisfying d6 roll that makes the feature feel bad mechanically.
my biggest gripe with the alchemist is that its mid asf the elixirs are good for the first few levels and while some of them are limited and feel like half a spell slot for the price of a full one they dont get any better on their own the only scaling you get for them is class features your potions are the same at level 3 as they are at level 20
In my opinion Experimental Elixir ought to work in one of two ways.
A) Go whole hog down the Mad Scientist route (More randomness than a single d6 roll, possibility of accidents, explosions, etc.)
OR
B) Remove the unsatisfying d6 roll that makes the feature feel bad mechanically.
What's so unsatisfying about it? It's a bit of randomness where all the effects are at least decent, that you can bypass by spending a small resource. Is it really worth all these histrionics?
I've explained why I think the d6 is there, though I'm not Crawford so all we can do is guess. If they got rid of it one day I wouldn't lose any sleep, but thematically I get it.
In my opinion Experimental Elixir ought to work in one of two ways.
A) Go whole hog down the Mad Scientist route (More randomness than a single d6 roll, possibility of accidents, explosions, etc.)
OR
B) Remove the unsatisfying d6 roll that makes the feature feel bad mechanically.
What's so unsatisfying about it? It's a bit of randomness where all the effects are at least decent, that you can bypass by spending a small resource. Is it really worth all these histrionics?
I've explained why I think the d6 is there, though I'm not Crawford so all we can do is guess. If they got rid of it one day I wouldn't lose any sleep, but thematically I get it.
I've already explained this, multiple times. In this thread. Today.
Artillerist gets free summon of their cannon, they get to choose instead of rolling 1d3, then spends spell slot to re-summon additional cannons. I just want that parity with that for the Alchemist.
1d6 is not a satisfying representation of Experimentation. It's just an obstacle in the way. An experiment is repeatable without being more expensive the 2nd time. An experiment that only has 6 possible outcomes all suspiciously beneficial becomes quickly pointless to run on repeat, every day. There's nothing to learn about running whatever experiment the 1d6 from Experimental Elixir represents.
If they want to make a more mechanically satisfying version of Experimental Elixir. I'm all for it, but a single 1d6 roll after a long rest is NOT it.
The Artificer is an excellent class in my opinion, it just feels substandard in those situations where another class might perform better. The Artificer has a lot to offer to a D&D campaign, but they get overshadowed a lot. I've been playing a lot of Team Fortress 2 lately and was inspired to make a magic item to give the Artillerist a sidegrade, so to speak. I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to do in this situation, as I don't want to basically repost the (ignored) thread here but it has all the stats, so my solution is this quote linking to it. I could use some feedback on it from you guys, as I think it provides a nice alternative to the typical Artillerist "haha extra damage go brrr" playstyle.
The Gunslinger (requires attunement by an Artificer with the Artillerist subclass): Built by Dell Conagher with the guidance of notes and diagrams from past Conaghers, the Gunslinger is an incredible feat of both mechanical and magical craftsmanship. The Gunslinger is a prosthetic that replaces your right arm, starting halfway down the forearm. It is similar in appearance to its form in Team Fortress 2, if not completely identical. It functions like the Prosthetic Limb found in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, with the following features:
Handyman: The Gunslinger can function as a set of tinker’s tools. Since you are an Artificer, you can use it as an arcane focus, and it’s eligible for the Arcane Firearm feature. Standard rules for arcane focuses still apply. The Gunslinger has a number of charges equal to a third of your Artificer level (rounded up), and they recharge fully after a long rest. You gain the following options:
Quick Fix: If one of your Eldritch Cannons takes damage that would destroy it, you can use your reaction to move up to half of your speed towards that Cannon. If you are within 5 feet of it at the end of this movement, you can expend a charge as part of the same reaction to restore hit points to the Cannon equal to 3 times your Artificer level.
Turret Whip: While within melee range of your Cannon, you can expend a charge as a bonus action to deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage to your Cannon. This damage cannot reduce the Cannon below 1 HP, but it also cannot be prevented. In exchange, the next time your Cannon is activated, it gains a damage bonus equal to your Intelligence modifier, and the number of dice rolled for its effect are doubled. The number of damaging d8’s rolled increases at 9th level (2d8) and 15th level (3d8).
Frontier Justice: If one of your Cannons that has dealt damage to an enemy or or has been hit by Turret Whip but not benefited from it yet is destroyed, you can expend a charge to gain advantage on your next attack roll against its destroyer, and this attack is a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.
ADHD Aussie (17M) with too many ideas and not enough time! Always up to chat!
Disclaimer: I'm not an optimizer. If I say something that's not fine-tuned to perfection, that's on purpose. D&D isn't an online tournament, it's a TTRPG where your imagination and the DM's compliance are the limits. I don't do "metas". If I can have fun with my thematically cool and still viable (both in and out of combat) concept, I'm happy. I'm not going for optimal stats; I'm going for optimal fun.
In my opinion Experimental Elixir ought to work in one of two ways.
A) Go whole hog down the Mad Scientist route (More randomness than a single d6 roll, possibility of accidents, explosions, etc.)
OR
B) Remove the unsatisfying d6 roll that makes the feature feel bad mechanically.
What's so unsatisfying about it? It's a bit of randomness where all the effects are at least decent, that you can bypass by spending a small resource. Is it really worth all these histrionics?
I've explained why I think the d6 is there, though I'm not Crawford so all we can do is guess. If they got rid of it one day I wouldn't lose any sleep, but thematically I get it.
Late jumping into this conversation but I get that it seems to fit a theme, although I don’t really think of the Alchemist as a “mad scientist” though it can be RP’d that way, But what I don’t feel fits is after 20 levels they still can’t quite figure out how to consistently make a potion on purpose without spending a spell slot. Especially for a LR feature.
Compared to other 3rd level features I don’t see a problem with letting them choose what their freebie is. Even the OH Monk gets to choose how to use their 3rd level feature (push, prone, remove reactions) lol.
I've already explained this, multiple times. In this thread. Today.
Artillerist gets free summon of their cannon, they get to choose instead of rolling 1d3, then spends spell slot to re-summon additional cannons. I just want that parity with that for the Alchemist.
1d6 is not a satisfying representation of Experimentation. It's just an obstacle in the way. An experiment is repeatable without being more expensive the 2nd time. An experiment that only has 6 possible outcomes all suspiciously beneficial becomes quickly pointless to run on repeat, every day. There's nothing to learn about running whatever experiment the 1d6 from Experimental Elixir represents.
If they want to make a more mechanically satisfying version of Experimental Elixir. I'm all for it, but a single 1d6 roll after a long rest is NOT it.
The artillerist's cannon does not have nearly the utility of the elixir., so I don't think that comparison holds water. It does damage or doles out temp HP, that's it.
Late jumping into this conversation but I get that it seems to fit a theme, although I don’t really think of the Alchemist as a “mad scientist” though it can be RP’d that way, But what I don’t feel fits is after 20 levels they still can’t quite figure out how to consistently make a potion on purpose without spending a spell slot. Especially for a LR feature.
They can make potions on purpose without spending spell slots; they are proficient with alchemist's supplies.
I know the random element is only part of it. What I'm saying is: get rid of that random part. Its annoying mechanically - I want to always get what I want and not be subjected to an unwanted chance effect. It makes no sense thematically - an alchemist spends every day slinging random **** together and still can't work out how to guarantee an effect?
And by alchemists fire I didn't mean the standard item version that any proficient character can make with gold and time. I wasn't clear on this. I meant that the Alchemist subclass can produce a variety of throwable flasks as well as imbibable potions. And that these flasks can produce effects identical to alchemists fire (except scalable) as well as other effects like acid bombs, smoke bombs etc
They DID work out how to guarantee an effect. Did you misread what I wrote?
The way to get scaling bombs etc is by refluffing your spells. You're casting them from the alchemist's supplies, so that's what you're doing when you cast firebolt or flaming sphere etc.
1) Spending a spell slot to forgo the randomness is a spell slot tax that straight up feels bad when compared to how the other Artificer subclasses interact with their 3rd level subclass feature.
An Artillerist doesn't need to expend a spell slot to choose what kind of Eldritch Cannon they summon the first time in a day.
An Armorer doesn't need to expend a spell slot to choose which kind of Armor Model they make when they first activate their Arcane Armor or change it's type the first time in a day.
A Battlesmith doesn't need to expend a spell slot when they command their Steel Defender to take an action instead of rolling dice to determine it's first action of a day randomly. The Battlesmith also doesn't need to expend a spell slot to choose which weapon to wield instead of rolling a 1d6 to choose their first weapon of the day randomly.
None of those three subclasses have to do that to CHOOSE what to do with the first day freebie they get with their 3rd level subclass feature. Why? Because that requirement would be completely ludicrous game design in the context of those abilities.
Why then, does the Alchemist, already a half caster trying to act like a full caster, need to expend a spell slot in order to make the first effect of their subclass feature a choice instead of a roll of the dice? This has NEVER been adequately answered for me. The closest response I get is "Oh, you could come up with some sort of flavor to explain the randomness" or "Oh, the breadth of your options totally justifies your mechanic being random" which is an assessment I've never agreed with.
THIS is what people mean when complaining about the randomness. It's about the insult to injury of a hastily designed mechanic. It's almost NEVER about not reading the feature description well enough. And I'm sick of the reading that explanation whenever it comes up. As if the only reason we can be dissatisfied with this mechanic is that we just aren't reading the text closely enough.
Anyway, sorry to explode. I know you likely meant well in your explanation.
Spending a first-level slot for a guaranteed 10 minutes of concentration free flight feels bad? Not buying that, sorry.
I'm not saying that the Alchemist is perfectly designed or anything, but expecting an alchemist class without any randomness at all feels to me like expecting a Wild Mage with no randomness. Mad science and concoctions doing unexpected things feels pretty thematic.
Look, I'm not saying you can't complain, complain away. I was just objecting to the "they didn't figure out a way around the randomness" statement, which is just false.
If you feel "10 minutes of concentration free flight that's 1/3 of average walking speed for one creature" is fundamentally worth more than "1 hour of concentration free 1d8 + INT temp HP for all creatures within a 10 foot radius that refreshes every turn for the duration" that's a fair opinion to have. Not one I share, mind, but fair.
But one of those effects costs a 1st level spell slot to guarantee (the first time in a day). The other one doesn't. That's the part that feels bad. The structure of how the mechanics operate feels bad. The effects of some specific elixirs feel fine, good even. Especially when you cherry pick the best ones. :P
In fact the freedom to cherry pick 1 of them per day without having to expend a spell slot to do so would feel very good indeed.
I've stated the following elsewhere but if the Experimental Elixir were MORE random, like Wild Magic Sorcery table roll a d100 levels of random, I'd be way more excited for Experimental Elixir! If they had gone that route, where perhaps only a small subset of the results (say 6 of them) could be guaranteed with 1st level slot. That would feel justified.
But 1d6 is a half-assed and disappointing amount of random results that might as well not exist.
All the temp HP in the world can't get you or your allies past a chasm or wall, especially not while concentrating on something else at the same time. There's more to this game than combat.
Yes, it's almost as if being able to choose the effect you want is more powerful than it being random and therefore carrying a cost. Imagine that...
"There is one effect here that is good and that mean the entire subclass is good."
And likewise having one creature being able to fly sans concentration isn't that much help when you're underground in a ten foot hallway. Look at that we can both pick the most optimal scenario that makes the other option look better in context! (this is pointless)
Who said the subclass is good? Can you quote the post?
Scenarios where 10 minutes of flight are good, especially at level 3 when very few other classes have it, are pretty common.
Cool. I'm just not interested in a forever back and forth of more and more specific scenarios.
So, if I may surmise your stance from your arguments here: The d6 roll is mechanically justified for experimental elixir because you feel one of the options is too good to be allowed to pick without expending some kind of additional resource other than the resource granted by the feature? If instead it were some other weaker option would you still be opposed to the concept of the Alchemist being able to pick the free elixir without rolling? Or if there were fewer options, etc. Because for me, it's about the mechanic more than then the specific things it gets you.
What I actually said was that some degree of randomness is thematically appropriate for a mad scientist archetype. I'd be fine with buffing any/all the options and retaining the free-elixir-is-random element to preserve that theme, but buffs to the elixir aren't actually needed; the elixir isn't the Alchemist subclass's main problem. You have the means at your disposal to pay for specific effects if you want them, and the price for doing so is appropriate.
Ignoring the flight option since you're stuck on that, the remaining ones are:
So which of those are you saying isn't worth spending a 1st-level slot on?
I'm stuck on that??? You're the one who brought it up the flight elixir in the first place!
I never said ANY of those things weren't worth spending a 1st level spell slot on. Holy shit.
They're all worth spending a 1st level spell slot! It's just that I feel the freebie shouldn't be random.
Naming the feature "Experimental" is not enough to justify it being a 1d6 roll.
I wasn't intending to say ANY bloody thing about any of the specifics elixirs, but you drew the argument into those weeds.
I've said repeatedly said. It's about how the mechanic works that makes it feel bad.
Look I'll quote myself:
Lo and behold. I meant exactly what I typed.
In my opinion Experimental Elixir ought to work in one of two ways.
A) Go whole hog down the Mad Scientist route (More randomness than a single d6 roll, possibility of accidents, explosions, etc.)
OR
B) Remove the unsatisfying d6 roll that makes the feature feel bad mechanically.
my biggest gripe with the alchemist is that its mid asf the elixirs are good for the first few levels and while some of them are limited and feel like half a spell slot for the price of a full one they dont get any better on their own the only scaling you get for them is class features your potions are the same at level 3 as they are at level 20
What's so unsatisfying about it? It's a bit of randomness where all the effects are at least decent, that you can bypass by spending a small resource. Is it really worth all these histrionics?
I've explained why I think the d6 is there, though I'm not Crawford so all we can do is guess. If they got rid of it one day I wouldn't lose any sleep, but thematically I get it.
I've already explained this, multiple times. In this thread. Today.
Artillerist gets free summon of their cannon, they get to choose instead of rolling 1d3, then spends spell slot to re-summon additional cannons.
I just want that parity with that for the Alchemist.
1d6 is not a satisfying representation of Experimentation. It's just an obstacle in the way. An experiment is repeatable without being more expensive the 2nd time. An experiment that only has 6 possible outcomes all suspiciously beneficial becomes quickly pointless to run on repeat, every day. There's nothing to learn about running whatever experiment the 1d6 from Experimental Elixir represents.
If they want to make a more mechanically satisfying version of Experimental Elixir. I'm all for it, but a single 1d6 roll after a long rest is NOT it.
Oh, so NOW you're interested in what people *actually* said and meant, huh? Figures.
The Artificer is an excellent class in my opinion, it just feels substandard in those situations where another class might perform better. The Artificer has a lot to offer to a D&D campaign, but they get overshadowed a lot. I've been playing a lot of Team Fortress 2 lately and was inspired to make a magic item to give the Artillerist a sidegrade, so to speak. I'm not entirely sure what I'm supposed to do in this situation, as I don't want to basically repost the (ignored) thread here but it has all the stats, so my solution is this quote linking to it. I could use some feedback on it from you guys, as I think it provides a nice alternative to the typical Artillerist "haha extra damage go brrr" playstyle.
ADHD Aussie (17M) with too many ideas and not enough time! Always up to chat!
Disclaimer: I'm not an optimizer. If I say something that's not fine-tuned to perfection, that's on purpose. D&D isn't an online tournament, it's a TTRPG where your imagination and the DM's compliance are the limits. I don't do "metas". If I can have fun with my thematically cool and still viable (both in and out of combat) concept, I'm happy. I'm not going for optimal stats; I'm going for optimal fun.
Late jumping into this conversation but I get that it seems to fit a theme, although I don’t really think of the Alchemist as a “mad scientist” though it can be RP’d that way, But what I don’t feel fits is after 20 levels they still can’t quite figure out how to consistently make a potion on purpose without spending a spell slot. Especially for a LR feature.
Compared to other 3rd level features I don’t see a problem with letting them choose what their freebie is. Even the OH Monk gets to choose how to use their 3rd level feature (push, prone, remove reactions) lol.
leave the randomness to the wild magic types
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The artillerist's cannon does not have nearly the utility of the elixir., so I don't think that comparison holds water. It does damage or doles out temp HP, that's it.
They can make potions on purpose without spending spell slots; they are proficient with alchemist's supplies.
You're the one who jumped in with a total non sequitur, not me. Nobody in this whole discussion said "the entire subclass is good."