I mean doing eldritch blast would require having enough Charisma to actually hit stuff. Which would mean a direct detriment to either HP or Defense. I don't really see much of a use for Hexblade in general. Other than you get a lot for 1 level dip in terms of a bonus action damage booster and normal warlock dip stuff. Though I suppose not a lot of bonus action competition there.
They don't just leave you alone and go after others?
Well, in the session (and it may be different when the rest of the group plays) the other two PCs were Gloomstalkers. At night. Shooting zombies and other undead. From the jungle.
Meanwhile, I was out there with a torch standing as bait. And I could do respectable damage myself.
We actually took down an undead T-Rex with that plan because of Protection from Evil and Good gave the T-Rex disadvantage against my 22 AC. We were Level 4.
I'm currently trying to find either a series of one shot, or a new game to play a pure one from level one. (based off of Roll Caskett from Megaman Legends-will snag humculucs as Data) (well pure until I get bored anyway). I've only tried out in various one shots, not long term. Did feel like I reallly lacked options. but most of the one shots were l ower half of the levels. Might be different above 8. but it also takes a not insignificant amount of time to get to those.
AFter the above stuff, I've generally worked a multiclass for "style or fun" options. built a kobold one that might pick up sun soul for "blaster breath" because it sounds so cute and tiny blaster mouth (pairs well with Bonfire and if I can get it, Chill Touch. They drink a draught from alchemy and fire a blast). Though rogue theif for trap laying in battle (hunter traps are soo weighty though) could also be flavorful fun.
Do wish Alchemist at least got Theif Hand's ability, and the explicit line of being allowed to use elixirs with it
I do the same thing as artillerists, lol. The actions are the same except the alchemst does it with better AC, attack rolls, and saving throws using elixirs.
The difference is in the bonus actions where the artlllerist uses the canons while the alchemest uses (mass) healing word, flaming sphere, or the homunculus.
Both spam cantrips.
So far I am finding alchemists working well. Level dipping/MC delays good abilities and I do play into epics so would never give up that artificer capstone.
Artillerist and battle smith have some nice combat options but lack the healing and versatility of the alchemist so it's different as opposed to worse.
The cantrip spam comment I found a bit silly because artillerists would also cantrip spam and battle smiths weapon attack spam. ;-)
Not really the same IMO. Having played both. TLDR: Passive playstyle vs Active playstyle difference. and its ahuge one for player enjoyment. Additionally several alchemist abilities work in antithesis of base artificer class norms. but mainly the passive boosts compared to active. Would love suggestions on how to be more involved in things.. .which was the main focus of this thread~
Artilriist still gets dynamic action with its Turrets-which can be switched out via 1 turn and 1 spell. 1 spell gets them a whole turret for 1 hour or until death. Additionally, their Cantrip Bonus item works in tandem with other class features (EAF infusion+ Arcane Firearm is quite potent). Also they tend to have far better Defense as well, or can. Because they can rock a shield + Arcane Focus (combo as mentioned above). And of course, because their spell slots go soo very far with one use, they can use their slots for other interesting spells (in and out of battle). Functionally, (in most people's experience so far) Alch will rarely have enough slots to rock a flamming sphere that often. Just in the particularly dense or hard looking battles. Also just the entertainment value of using the turret each round adds a fair bit of interaction with the battle and enjoyment.
The alchemist can't really rock the shield + alchemist tool. Unless it g ives up its open hand for administering Elixirs/potions/Healing Kits. If it wanted to use EAF and its focus it takes both hands--because they must use Alchemist Tools only as a focus for the bonuses. (EAF doesn't have to be used as the focus, just held for its bonus). So alchemist has to choose between Shield (defense) + Alchemy kit bonus + Open Hand for item usage + EAF for +hit/bypassing cover. Though its fairly easy to drop several of these and go shield + alchemy kit. But then you have less to hit ability, which is the only thing you'll be doing. Shield + alch Kit and using acid splash isn't too bad though. The comment about better AC and elxiirs, do you mean if they feed it to themselves? Well. thats 1 slot per 1 elixir, which last 10mins or less (sans speed one). So, thats probably one maybe two quick sucession battles. For.. most of the slots you had in the day.
On top of which, 1 slot gets them 1 elixir, which only hasts for 10 mins (excluding the speed one) or less. They're more likely the off healer, meaning they also need to retain some slots for healing the main healer if they get in trouble, or to suppliment through a bad moment. So they have even less spell slots to do something interesting with.
Humucluus shouldn't be factored either. Its open to all 3, and it takes up an Infusion slot. All three can get a lot of use out of it as well. Even without usuing the bonus action for Help. As it can let them suppliment healing to someone carrying the humucluus, or leave it to cast spells like Snare or other long cast time spells while they do something else.
Ultimately what all of us are getting at by the term "cantrip spam" is that generally speaking you have little to no other options available. Unlike the other subclasses. If you have played an Alchemist.. what exactly in battle do you do that's interesting? I would love to hear to adapt it for myself. I love my alchemists but ultimately in battle they can get boring. Passive support and little to no battle options. Out of battle, tons of fun, supporting others gratifying. But sitting in a corner flinging fire bolts or acid splash, or bonfiring the entry door is not really involved in the combat narrative. (Heck could have less if you picked up utility cantrips because you're a support method class). both other subclasses get tools that have narritive impact. While the Alchemist has tools that help other's narrative impact. (i.e. giving an elixir pre battle, or healing word once or twice). most alchemist players so far agree that it ends up being fairly boring in battle. Great support and effective. generally end up with no choices but Cantrip Spamming. Until level 11. effectively most of what you do you could do without leaving camp. (all you contribute is a bit of damage, and a nother body to target. and a healing words if you saved some instead of using elixir or buffs)
The artillerist action does not change in comparison. The cantrips are the same and using the arcane firearm as the focus carries the same restrictions as using alchemist tools as a focus because those tools do not require two hands to use.
IME the cannons are used for temp hp most of the time. This is incredibly useful but does not add damage. Meanwhile, canons die, either costing slots to recreate or actions for mending cantrips.
The cannons always cost the bonus action. So it's true any articifer can also take the homunculus it's less likely the artillerist will spend the bonus action to use the homunculus. It's also true the homunculus costs an infusion but so does arcane focus empowerment, which the alchemist does not need. It's the artillerist who would be down an infusion taking it and not the alchemist.
Yes, the elixirs apply to the alchemist. And anyone else to whom they are given. EAP applies to one character ever because of the infusion restrictions.
Elixirs give versatility. They use a first level slot for any of those effects to grant combat bonuses or out of combat use. Using those slots to create cannons is more limited to the cannon options while both still have access to the artificer list as alternatives.
The alchemist gets temp hp and healing bonuses via elixirs and casting flaming sphere for bonus action damage while the artillerist is using cannons for one or the other, and flaming sphere can be upcast for more bonus action damage.
They are different but not as much as you might think. ;-)
hmm, having played both. I'd have to disagree. While written out they sound the same "fire cantrips " and "shield + focus" in play, due to their rolls and their extra features, and the limited spell slots per day. They play very differently, and they act differently. (ALso not being able to use EAF makes you hit noticably less than the artificer. due to cover and bounded accuracy. Or the lack of shield to pull it off, and being a possibly being viewed as a healer by the enemy makes you a tasty target).
But, if it doesn't result in less than fun, "i have no options, and I gave elixirs out earlier so I have only 2 slots left for healing words-so I guess I'm autobattling and haven't much narritive power for the rest of today's combats" situations in your experienced. That's wonderful.
hmm, having played both. I'd have to disagree. While written out they sound the same "fire cantrips " and "shield + focus" in play, due to their rolls and their extra features, and the limited spell slots per day. They play very differently, and they act differently. (ALso not being able to use EAF makes you hit noticably less than the artificer. due to cover and bounded accuracy. Or the lack of shield to pull it off, and being a possibly being viewed as a healer by the enemy makes you a tasty target).
But, if it doesn't result in less than fun, "i have no options, and I gave elixirs out earlier so I have only 2 slots left for healing words-so I guess I'm autobattling and haven't much narritive power for the rest of today's combats" situations in your experienced. That's wonderful.
EAF makes little difference. It would normally matter about once in twenty attacks when six combats at three rounds on average would be less than twenty attacks even attacking every round. It would usually make a difference once or twice maybe in an adventuring day but never during an important combat because that's the time to drink a boldness elixir. Fighting the major fights means +1d4 to hit from the elixir is better than EAF.
The shield spell might make a difference on a particular round but it eats slots fast with any repeated use while artillerists are either also using slots to create cannons (which do not last the day due to duration or die to damage) or are saving those slots for the important fights as well.
The artillerist can only have one cannon at a time until 15th level. The cannon is definitely useful in combat but that's about it. Transformation elixir or flight elixir are useful outside of combat. They can eat through slots too handing them out and using them but they last all day until used and several can be made at once. In combat, adding 1d4 to hit is something I mentioned for the alchemist but giving that to the fighter who wants to take a -5 hit penalty for +10 damage bonus using the great weapon master feat is really what we're comparing to 2d8 damage from the cannon, which favors the elixir. Except the alchemist still has the bonus action to also use after enabling the fighter to land those big hits better.
As I said earlier, however, the artillerist often ends up going with protector cannon for the temp hit points instead of the bonus damage. At lower levels the artillerist loses actions to mending the cannon in combat to help keep it from getting destroyed. That's less of an issue as the hit points increase later because it's easy to top up hit points using the cantrip after the fights. Using mending in combat and protector both drop damage output from the artillerist.
As I said earlier, however, the artillerist often ends up going with protector cannon for the temp hit points instead of the bonus damage. At lower levels the artillerist loses actions to mending the cannon in combat to help keep it from getting destroyed. That's less of an issue as the hit points increase later because it's easy to top up hit points using the cantrip after the fights. Using mending in combat and protector both drop damage output from the artillerist.
RAW Mending has a casting time of one minute. If you're casting it in combat it's costing you 10 entire rounds not just one action. It effectively takes the artillerist out of the dang fight not really worth it except in very specific combat encounters where it was already unnecessary for the artillerist to be attacking.
I've been looking at infusions and spells for bonus action options the Alchemist could use below level 6 (and in general). One of the more interesting options I found was the Rope of Climbing. It takes an action to animate (though it's not specified how long it remains animated) but a bonus action to command it to extend 10 feet in a direction of your choice and/or do one of the following: fasten/unfasten itself to an object, knot/unknot itself, or coil itself for carrying.
Two things to note here.
There's no stated limitations of objects it can fasten itself to. Logically it would be anything you can tie a rope around but this could include things being worn or carried.
If you command it to fasten itself to an object then next turn command it to coil itself if that object is free to move then logically it would get dragged towards you (or you to it depending on weight or how securely that object is in place).
This kind of makes the rope of climbing a slower (but longer range), bonus action controlled mage hand that can tie itself to an opponents armor, clothing, weapons, spellcasting foci, shields, etc. There's no real direct way to do damage with this and it's heavily dependent on DM allowance, plus Artificer's don't often focus on things like strength... but it can give you something interesting to do and it's an infusion you can have as early as level 2.
Huh. Ropep of climbing is amusing thought there. Depending on the GM you could havea fair bit of fun with it.
interestingly I can't tell if its 1 bonus actin and it moves towards whatever you specify. or if its a bonus action reupping each round to keep it going. Seems like it auto moves until new command is given. Wonder if it slithers or f lies.
As a sidenote, with a willing GM and Tavern Brawler, it would be rather hilarious improvised weapon. Can only coil/knott objects not people, but that still affords options. Also could probably be useful for traps occasionally. be easy to break since its Silk Rope. but as an infusion you could probably still Mend the base rope back together, then reinfuse the next day.
I still say a 3 level dip into Rogue for the Arcane Trickster is a good idea as a MC option for Alchemists. Much like Thief you would get Expertise, a minor Sneak Attack (2d6, but hey, it’s better than a kick in the 8@115), and Cunning Action, ‘nuf said.
But unlike Thief, the actual Subclass features you get at level 3 for the Trickster mesh better with the Alchemist IMHO. Mage Hand Legerdemain seems very good for administration of Elixirs, and the extra Cantrips are nice too. A few more spells known as well, since once you learn a spell you know it. And overall you would only have to sacrifice 2 “caster levels” instead of 3 because of how multiclassing works. (And you can learn Find Familiar if you want as an alternative/addition to the Homunculus if you like having critters.)
If you prefer to have a little more focus on combat specifically, a 3 level dip into Fighter for Eldritch Knight would work just as well as an alternative for many of the same/similar reasons. A fighting Style like Defense or Protection, Second Wind and Action Surge, a few d10 Hit Dice, plus the Cantrips, spells known, and spell progression.
You could always go he blade instead of fighter, keep all your short rest resets plus eldritch blast!
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I mean doing eldritch blast would require having enough Charisma to actually hit stuff. Which would mean a direct detriment to either HP or Defense.
I don't really see much of a use for Hexblade in general. Other than you get a lot for 1 level dip in terms of a bonus action damage booster and normal warlock dip stuff.
Though I suppose not a lot of bonus action competition there.
Me? My AC is very high.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
They don't just leave you alone and go after others?
Well, in the session (and it may be different when the rest of the group plays) the other two PCs were Gloomstalkers. At night. Shooting zombies and other undead. From the jungle.
Meanwhile, I was out there with a torch standing as bait. And I could do respectable damage myself.
We actually took down an undead T-Rex with that plan because of Protection from Evil and Good gave the T-Rex disadvantage against my 22 AC. We were Level 4.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
oooh that sounds like an awesome group set up
I've been DMing Dungeon of the Mad Mage for the group, so our tactics are razor-sharp. If anything, we're a bit too overconfident.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
Is anyone playing a pure alchemist or did everyone level dip or multi-class in order to do something in combat?
I'm currently trying to find either a series of one shot, or a new game to play a pure one from level one. (based off of Roll Caskett from Megaman Legends-will snag humculucs as Data)
(well pure until I get bored anyway). I've only tried out in various one shots, not long term. Did feel like I reallly lacked options. but most of the one shots were l ower half of the levels. Might be different above 8. but it also takes a not insignificant amount of time to get to those.
AFter the above stuff, I've generally worked a multiclass for "style or fun" options.
built a kobold one that might pick up sun soul for "blaster breath" because it sounds so cute and tiny blaster mouth (pairs well with Bonfire and if I can get it, Chill Touch. They drink a draught from alchemy and fire a blast). Though rogue theif for trap laying in battle (hunter traps are soo weighty though) could also be flavorful fun.
Do wish Alchemist at least got Theif Hand's ability, and the explicit line of being allowed to use elixirs with it
I do the same thing as artillerists, lol. The actions are the same except the alchemst does it with better AC, attack rolls, and saving throws using elixirs.
The difference is in the bonus actions where the artlllerist uses the canons while the alchemest uses (mass) healing word, flaming sphere, or the homunculus.
Both spam cantrips.
So far I am finding alchemists working well. Level dipping/MC delays good abilities and I do play into epics so would never give up that artificer capstone.
Artillerist and battle smith have some nice combat options but lack the healing and versatility of the alchemist so it's different as opposed to worse.
The cantrip spam comment I found a bit silly because artillerists would also cantrip spam and battle smiths weapon attack spam. ;-)
Not really the same IMO. Having played both. TLDR: Passive playstyle vs Active playstyle difference. and its ahuge one for player enjoyment. Additionally several alchemist abilities work in antithesis of base artificer class norms. but mainly the passive boosts compared to active.
Would love suggestions on how to be more involved in things.. .which was the main focus of this thread~
Artilriist still gets dynamic action with its Turrets-which can be switched out via 1 turn and 1 spell. 1 spell gets them a whole turret for 1 hour or until death. Additionally, their Cantrip Bonus item works in tandem with other class features (EAF infusion+ Arcane Firearm is quite potent). Also they tend to have far better Defense as well, or can. Because they can rock a shield + Arcane Focus (combo as mentioned above). And of course, because their spell slots go soo very far with one use, they can use their slots for other interesting spells (in and out of battle). Functionally, (in most people's experience so far) Alch will rarely have enough slots to rock a flamming sphere that often. Just in the particularly dense or hard looking battles.
Also just the entertainment value of using the turret each round adds a fair bit of interaction with the battle and enjoyment.
The alchemist can't really rock the shield + alchemist tool. Unless it g ives up its open hand for administering Elixirs/potions/Healing Kits. If it wanted to use EAF and its focus it takes both hands--because they must use Alchemist Tools only as a focus for the bonuses. (EAF doesn't have to be used as the focus, just held for its bonus).
So alchemist has to choose between Shield (defense) + Alchemy kit bonus + Open Hand for item usage + EAF for +hit/bypassing cover. Though its fairly easy to drop several of these and go shield + alchemy kit. But then you have less to hit ability, which is the only thing you'll be doing. Shield + alch Kit and using acid splash isn't too bad though.
The comment about better AC and elxiirs, do you mean if they feed it to themselves? Well. thats 1 slot per 1 elixir, which last 10mins or less (sans speed one). So, thats probably one maybe two quick sucession battles. For.. most of the slots you had in the day.
On top of which, 1 slot gets them 1 elixir, which only hasts for 10 mins (excluding the speed one) or less. They're more likely the off healer, meaning they also need to retain some slots for healing the main healer if they get in trouble, or to suppliment through a bad moment. So they have even less spell slots to do something interesting with.
Humucluus shouldn't be factored either. Its open to all 3, and it takes up an Infusion slot. All three can get a lot of use out of it as well. Even without usuing the bonus action for Help. As it can let them suppliment healing to someone carrying the humucluus, or leave it to cast spells like Snare or other long cast time spells while they do something else.
Ultimately what all of us are getting at by the term "cantrip spam" is that generally speaking you have little to no other options available. Unlike the other subclasses.
If you have played an Alchemist.. what exactly in battle do you do that's interesting? I would love to hear to adapt it for myself. I love my alchemists but ultimately in battle they can get boring. Passive support and little to no battle options. Out of battle, tons of fun, supporting others gratifying. But sitting in a corner flinging fire bolts or acid splash, or bonfiring the entry door is not really involved in the combat narrative. (Heck could have less if you picked up utility cantrips because you're a support method class).
both other subclasses get tools that have narritive impact. While the Alchemist has tools that help other's narrative impact. (i.e. giving an elixir pre battle, or healing word once or twice). most alchemist players so far agree that it ends up being fairly boring in battle. Great support and effective. generally end up with no choices but Cantrip Spamming. Until level 11.
effectively most of what you do you could do without leaving camp. (all you contribute is a bit of damage, and a nother body to target. and a healing words if you saved some instead of using elixir or buffs)
The artillerist action does not change in comparison. The cantrips are the same and using the arcane firearm as the focus carries the same restrictions as using alchemist tools as a focus because those tools do not require two hands to use.
IME the cannons are used for temp hp most of the time. This is incredibly useful but does not add damage. Meanwhile, canons die, either costing slots to recreate or actions for mending cantrips.
The cannons always cost the bonus action. So it's true any articifer can also take the homunculus it's less likely the artillerist will spend the bonus action to use the homunculus. It's also true the homunculus costs an infusion but so does arcane focus empowerment, which the alchemist does not need. It's the artillerist who would be down an infusion taking it and not the alchemist.
Yes, the elixirs apply to the alchemist. And anyone else to whom they are given. EAP applies to one character ever because of the infusion restrictions.
Elixirs give versatility. They use a first level slot for any of those effects to grant combat bonuses or out of combat use. Using those slots to create cannons is more limited to the cannon options while both still have access to the artificer list as alternatives.
The alchemist gets temp hp and healing bonuses via elixirs and casting flaming sphere for bonus action damage while the artillerist is using cannons for one or the other, and flaming sphere can be upcast for more bonus action damage.
They are different but not as much as you might think. ;-)
hmm, having played both. I'd have to disagree. While written out they sound the same "fire cantrips " and "shield + focus" in play, due to their rolls and their extra features, and the limited spell slots per day. They play very differently, and they act differently. (ALso not being able to use EAF makes you hit noticably less than the artificer. due to cover and bounded accuracy. Or the lack of shield to pull it off, and being a possibly being viewed as a healer by the enemy makes you a tasty target).
But, if it doesn't result in less than fun, "i have no options, and I gave elixirs out earlier so I have only 2 slots left for healing words-so I guess I'm autobattling and haven't much narritive power for the rest of today's combats" situations in your experienced. That's wonderful.
EAF makes little difference. It would normally matter about once in twenty attacks when six combats at three rounds on average would be less than twenty attacks even attacking every round. It would usually make a difference once or twice maybe in an adventuring day but never during an important combat because that's the time to drink a boldness elixir. Fighting the major fights means +1d4 to hit from the elixir is better than EAF.
The shield spell might make a difference on a particular round but it eats slots fast with any repeated use while artillerists are either also using slots to create cannons (which do not last the day due to duration or die to damage) or are saving those slots for the important fights as well.
The artillerist can only have one cannon at a time until 15th level. The cannon is definitely useful in combat but that's about it. Transformation elixir or flight elixir are useful outside of combat. They can eat through slots too handing them out and using them but they last all day until used and several can be made at once. In combat, adding 1d4 to hit is something I mentioned for the alchemist but giving that to the fighter who wants to take a -5 hit penalty for +10 damage bonus using the great weapon master feat is really what we're comparing to 2d8 damage from the cannon, which favors the elixir. Except the alchemist still has the bonus action to also use after enabling the fighter to land those big hits better.
As I said earlier, however, the artillerist often ends up going with protector cannon for the temp hit points instead of the bonus damage. At lower levels the artillerist loses actions to mending the cannon in combat to help keep it from getting destroyed. That's less of an issue as the hit points increase later because it's easy to top up hit points using the cantrip after the fights. Using mending in combat and protector both drop damage output from the artillerist.
RAW Mending has a casting time of one minute. If you're casting it in combat it's costing you 10 entire rounds not just one action. It effectively takes the artillerist out of the dang fight not really worth it except in very specific combat encounters where it was already unnecessary for the artillerist to be attacking.
I've been looking at infusions and spells for bonus action options the Alchemist could use below level 6 (and in general). One of the more interesting options I found was the Rope of Climbing. It takes an action to animate (though it's not specified how long it remains animated) but a bonus action to command it to extend 10 feet in a direction of your choice and/or do one of the following: fasten/unfasten itself to an object, knot/unknot itself, or coil itself for carrying.
Two things to note here.
This kind of makes the rope of climbing a slower (but longer range), bonus action controlled mage hand that can tie itself to an opponents armor, clothing, weapons, spellcasting foci, shields, etc. There's no real direct way to do damage with this and it's heavily dependent on DM allowance, plus Artificer's don't often focus on things like strength... but it can give you something interesting to do and it's an infusion you can have as early as level 2.
Huh. Ropep of climbing is amusing thought there. Depending on the GM you could havea fair bit of fun with it.
interestingly I can't tell if its 1 bonus actin and it moves towards whatever you specify. or if its a bonus action reupping each round to keep it going. Seems like it auto moves until new command is given. Wonder if it slithers or f lies.
As a sidenote, with a willing GM and Tavern Brawler, it would be rather hilarious improvised weapon. Can only coil/knott objects not people, but that still affords options. Also could probably be useful for traps occasionally.
be easy to break since its Silk Rope. but as an infusion you could probably still Mend the base rope back together, then reinfuse the next day.
I still say a 3 level dip into Rogue for the Arcane Trickster is a good idea as a MC option for Alchemists. Much like Thief you would get Expertise, a minor Sneak Attack (2d6, but hey, it’s better than a kick in the 8@115), and Cunning Action, ‘nuf said.
But unlike Thief, the actual Subclass features you get at level 3 for the Trickster mesh better with the Alchemist IMHO. Mage Hand Legerdemain seems very good for administration of Elixirs, and the extra Cantrips are nice too. A few more spells known as well, since once you learn a spell you know it. And overall you would only have to sacrifice 2 “caster levels” instead of 3 because of how multiclassing works. (And you can learn Find Familiar if you want as an alternative/addition to the Homunculus if you like having critters.)
If you prefer to have a little more focus on combat specifically, a 3 level dip into Fighter for Eldritch Knight would work just as well as an alternative for many of the same/similar reasons. A fighting Style like Defense or Protection, Second Wind and Action Surge, a few d10 Hit Dice, plus the Cantrips, spells known, and spell progression.
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You would be surprised at how strong silk is. I would imagine silk rope to be quite strong.
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