The lack of spell slots is a little annoying but it actually is quite fair(especially if you make a couple of spell scrolls with your first bit of gold) I think they should either get one more cantrip at lower levels and/or the list for replicate magic item be improved. the lack of the All-purpose tool really bugs me.
I barely played 1e, and never played in the Al-Qadim setting, so I cannot speak to those with any authority. I still say that Bards should be 6/10 casters like Artificers and not full casters. As full casters, they put other full casters to shame in some ways, (especially their Cha-caster counterpart the Sorcerer). They get full caster progression and a whole suite of features, more than any other full-caster. I lrvls the features though, so I think it would be more balanced if they only had C-5th-Level spells and 4 subclass feature levels like the rest of the classes get. If you disagree with my opinion, that’s your prerogative. But it’s no reason to tell me my opinion is invalid.
As for the Artificer, I agree with you that it would be nice if they did more magic item stuff and maybe not so much on the Spellcasting. Y’know, like they did in 3e. 😜
You are the one that brought up older editions as a basis for compariison.
If we stick to 5e then, I agree PHB bards do make the PHB and XGtE sorcerers look bad. Then throw in the other bard subclasses and its even worse in comparison.
3e had crafting rules that worked for that edition with a constant magic item churn. This edition seems to expect characters to make it to 20th level with 3 permanent magic items and a bunch of single use ones.
You’re the one who has a problem comparing things from 5e to their older edition iterations, not I. 🤷♂️
Actually, this edition expects people to make it to 20th level without any magic items whatsoever, that’s how CR and the Adventuring Day are all balanced.
This edition expects basic magic weapons. Otherwise most of the martial classes drastially drop in effectiveness beginning around 6th level. Depending on the enncounter they may have nothing to contribute except taking attacks while the casters actually take out the enemies.
This edition expects basic magic weapons. Otherwise most of the martial classes drastially drop in effectiveness beginning around 6th level. Depending on the enncounter they may have nothing to contribute except taking attacks while the casters actually take out the enemies.
Not according to Jeremy Crawford. 🤷♂️ The only magic items they actively expect and balance for are potions of healing.
I didn't say it was balanced. If they wanted balanced they should have dropped +1,2,3 weapons completely and gone with effect ones like wounding or flame tongue, or magic poison.
It is thrown into stark contrast in organized play where everyone can get a +1 weapon at 5th level so those classes can still be effective.
Take a mid tier 2 fighter, ranger, barbarian, or rogue into combat without a magic weapon and watch them struggle to do anything. Tier 3 is even worse in that quiet a few are resistant and some immune to nonmagic attacks.
Actually there is at least one poison "treated as magical" but it literally has no benefit because nothing is immune/restistant to non- magical poison. (Harvested poison from a beastmaster pet.)
I will also add that when poison gets mixed into the game Martals get a severe boost. (assuming no immunity or resistance)with enough access to poison the damage numbers can triple or quadruple baseline numbers (at level 5). Now I looked it up and roughtly 35-40% of creatures that have legendary actions are immune. that means the ""free"" damage will at least boost a martal fighting a legendary 60% of the time. (and many have minions that poison will also work on)
Now enemies have spell responses but they have to know to prep them or use them in combat. I find this to be interesting play .. making the pieces work together.
now one interesting bit is that artificers magic is "unique" in that it sometimes works better when supporting other classes or by sharing. an alchemy jug can fill the roll of harvesting. but your dm will have to decide if it only produces basic poison which is a lot harder to use than harvested ones.
I like the unique space an artificer works in with strong tank and support options. I just find myself a little bored in combat because (at least pre level 5) once I settle on a combat strategy I could almost run on "auto mode." a IMo extra choice of an attack cantrip would help and I didn't even take mending like a smart person.
What boost do martials get by mixing in poison? Unless you took poisoners kit as a tool proficiency you risk poisoning yourself to use poison. Applying takes an action (again unless feat or maybe some subclass) and the poison is only viable for one minute and only works on 1 strike, not round. Most creatures have decent con saves. And if the monster is immune to non-magic attacks and the martial doesn't have one then there is no delivery mechanism.
What boost do martials get by mixing in poison? Unless you took poisoners kit as a tool proficiency you risk poisoning yourself to use poison. Applying takes an action (again unless feat or maybe some subclass) and the poison is only viable for one minute and only works on 1 strike, not round. Most creatures have decent con saves. And if the monster is immune to non-magic attacks and the martial doesn't have one then there is no delivery mechanism.
Poison doesn't make up for a basic magic weapon.
contact and injury poisons all can be applied out of combat not action required. they last until washed off (unless a specific exception is made which is only [item]Basic poison[item]). Poison a whole quiver and your good to go. poison all your weapons at least once and your good for one hit.
Poison is basically an elemental damage type so monsters are either immune/resisted or they are not. even if a monster is resistant or immune to Non-magic BPS They still can take poison damage. As far as i can tell taking 0 slashing/piercing Damage is still a delivery mechanism.
EDIT: JC has a tweet to the contrary about zero damage. this is one of the very few times I Disagree with his stance but it does exist. so only contact poisons not injury ones.
Sill my claim wasn't that magic weapons weren't needed. I only claimed that the ability to add extra damage(and riders) on some enemies is balanced out against no damage (without assistance) against some.
now for martials collecting poison. (I am including some artificer subclasses as martials because they focus on weapons over spells for a significant portion of their attacks)
There are 3 main routes
purchased/ crafted (*Must make contacts and have money)
collected. every poisonous creature can be harvested period. "the risk" can be mitigated via lots of boons. ranger or rouge gets expertise and advantage or reliable talent. spells can add resistance, immunity or assist the skill via guidance or enhance ability. * artificer in perticular has flash of genius built into the class making harvesting attempts actually quite high. they can even take poisoners kit as their "tools" and still cast normal spells through it.
Now full casters all the time are looking for free ways to enhance damage spells but martials who use weapons have so many they usually dont even need to investigate options(aka poison) to get optimal damage out of their attacks. This is why I think the artificer rides the line between martials and caster just like how ranger does.
After rechecking, the basic poison is the one that is only good for a minute. The others are only good for 1 attack (or 3 pieces of ammunition). The ones easily available are really low DCs (basic 1d4 DC 10, serpent 3d6 DC 11). Even enemies that aren't resistant or immune will save most of the time.
Then think tier 2 where multi-attack comes into play and a martial hits may do a few dice of extra damage on their first strike, then either give up their next round action to re-apply or just give up on doing anything more than 1/2 damage against something with resistance.
There are only 2 contact poisons in the DMG and one cost 200GP/dose and the other 400GP/dose - this one is really campaign dependent; but from experience not worth it.
While there are many venomous / poisonous creatures each harvest only nets you 1 dose. Generally in 5e poison just isn't worth the effort involved.
An interesting alternative approach if you were going to have more spell casting for an Artificer would be to require them to learn their spells, but not like a wizard. Instead, they have to invent their spells through research or uncover schematics from other artificers. That would limit their spells known to avoid giving them too much of an advantage.
Personally, I love the idea of artificers generating all effects from gadgets or physical effects, and I think that’s how they should be flavored. I’d also take the trade of more limits on spells available and spell slots if it meant more infusions could be used at one time and magic items could be created more quickly and easily at earlier levels (maybe only common consumables at level 3, other levels would bring up the rarity tier and allow permanent items, etc.).
After rechecking, the basic poison is the one that is only good for a minute. The others are only good for 1 attack (or 3 pieces of ammunition). The ones easily available are really low DCs (basic 1d4 DC 10, serpent 3d6 DC 11). Even enemies that aren't resistant or immune will save most of the time.
Then think tier 2 where multi-attack comes into play and a martial hits may do a few dice of extra damage on their first strike, then either give up their next round action to re-apply or just give up on doing anything more than 1/2 damage against something with resistance.
There are only 2 contact poisons in the DMG and one cost 200GP/dose and the other 400GP/dose - this one is really campaign dependent; but from experience not worth it.
While there are many venomous / poisonous creatures each harvest only nets you 1 dose. Generally in 5e poison just isn't worth the effort involved.
Buy a flying snake and keep it with your party supplies. 3d4 crittable poison ignoring your Con save is no joke. Note that one of the multiple house rules a DM needs to come up with to patch WOTC's laziness is how frequently you can harvest from a creature - if your DM sticks to strict RAW there's no listed limit and your damage output will skyrocket.
After rechecking, the basic poison is the one that is only good for a minute. The others are only good for 1 attack (or 3 pieces of ammunition). The ones easily available are really low DCs (basic 1d4 DC 10, serpent 3d6 DC 11). Even enemies that aren't resistant or immune will save most of the time.
Then think tier 2 where multi-attack comes into play and a martial hits may do a few dice of extra damage on their first strike, then either give up their next round action to re-apply or just give up on doing anything more than 1/2 damage against something with resistance.
There are only 2 contact poisons in the DMG and one cost 200GP/dose and the other 400GP/dose - this one is really campaign dependent; but from experience not worth it.
While there are many venomous / poisonous creatures each harvest only nets you 1 dose. Generally in 5e poison just isn't worth the effort involved.
Buy a flying snake and keep it with your party supplies. 3d4 crittable poison ignoring your Con save is no joke. Note that one of the multiple house rules a DM needs to come up with to patch WOTC's laziness is how frequently you can harvest from a creature - if your DM sticks to strict RAW there's no listed limit and your damage output will skyrocket.
That's fantastic. 5% of the time you will roll a 1 on your animal handling check to harvest and probably take a bite from the snake or something.
I'm all for creative play, but if something is super easy then you have to ask why everyone else isn't doing it. If you can just buy an exotic snake and milk it you shouldn't need to because a dozen people in town will be selling the venom. The simplest answer would be that like many other exotic animals they do poorly in captivity. That could give PCs an advantage. If the only way to keep one healthy in a cage is to cast cure wounds on it every day then most people and most organizations wouldn't be able to spare the magic but for PCs a single first level spell slot isn't a deal breaker. It's just a high enough cost to discourage anyone from setting up a snake farm.
This edition expects basic magic weapons. Otherwise most of the martial classes drastially drop in effectiveness beginning around 6th level. Depending on the enncounter they may have nothing to contribute except taking attacks while the casters actually take out the enemies.
Not according to Jeremy Crawford. 🤷♂️ The only magic items they actively expect and balance for are potions of healing.
That isn't my experience from playtesting pre-release or the modules afterwards. We did lots of prerelease, but only a couple of modules OotA, & PotA).
And Perkins reply assumes certain party builds that 5e isn't supposed to enforce.
After rechecking, the basic poison is the one that is only good for a minute. The others are only good for 1 attack (or 3 pieces of ammunition). The ones easily available are really low DCs (basic 1d4 DC 10, serpent 3d6 DC 11). Even enemies that aren't resistant or immune will save most of the time.
Then think tier 2 where multi-attack comes into play and a martial hits may do a few dice of extra damage on their first strike, then either give up their next round action to re-apply or just give up on doing anything more than 1/2 damage against something with resistance.
There are only 2 contact poisons in the DMG and one cost 200GP/dose and the other 400GP/dose - this one is really campaign dependent; but from experience not worth it.
While there are many venomous / poisonous creatures each harvest only nets you 1 dose. Generally in 5e poison just isn't worth the effort involved.
Buy a flying snake and keep it with your party supplies. 3d4 crittable poison ignoring your Con save is no joke. Note that one of the multiple house rules a DM needs to come up with to patch WOTC's laziness is how frequently you can harvest from a creature - if your DM sticks to strict RAW there's no listed limit and your damage output will skyrocket.
That's fantastic. 5% of the time you will roll a 1 on your animal handling check to harvest and probably take a bite from the snake or something.
I'm all for creative play, but if something is super easy then you have to ask why everyone else isn't doing it. If you can just buy an exotic snake and milk it you shouldn't need to because a dozen people in town will be selling the venom. The simplest answer would be that like many other exotic animals they do poorly in captivity. That could give PCs an advantage. If the only way to keep one healthy in a cage is to cast cure wounds on it every day then most people and most organizations wouldn't be able to spare the magic but for PCs a single first level spell slot isn't a deal breaker. It's just a high enough cost to discourage anyone from setting up a snake farm.
a Beastmaster can guarantee it stays with the party safe and sound. This is why beastmaster rangers are one of the best at it But artificers and rogues can do it well by staying on top of skill checks.
Also it is an active part of the lore that Zhentarim keep flying snakes as pets and messengers. they also don't care about local laws. So it does happen. as for selling well its a high priced item with low demand so finding a buyer is more dangerous than just keeping and using it.
And it is still only 3d4 (7.5) poison damage on one attack. If your character is really into poison then you could switch weapons and have a dose on each. Which if you are into the whole harvesting and poisoner's kit go for it. But it doesn't make up for a simple magic weapon, especially at later tiers.
Using the Warlock spell progression: This is exactly how they should have approached it. They should feel very limited spellcasters resource-wise to improve balance, but not less competent learners of the arcane mysteries than a wizard.
Cutting Artificer spell capabilities feels just weird conceptually cuz even with all their features, druids and wizards will surpass them after lv 5. No question about it.
I think people often forget infusions are also tied to lv, attunement rules and more often than not the infusions feel behind the current party lv since their spell progression is somewhat what determined by the lvl of magical items and abilities the artificer can get.
Also tbh, bards exist. Why should artificers be less competent magic users than them? Feels really weird to me. Sure.... like some random guy with a lute has more understanding of magic than a guy dedicating their life to the study of magical infusions....? How does this hold up?
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The lack of spell slots is a little annoying but it actually is quite fair(especially if you make a couple of spell scrolls with your first bit of gold) I think they should either get one more cantrip at lower levels and/or the list for replicate magic item be improved. the lack of the All-purpose tool really bugs me.
That’s why they get Magical Tinkering as the Cantrip Equivalent of Infusions.
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You are the one that brought up older editions as a basis for compariison.
If we stick to 5e then, I agree PHB bards do make the PHB and XGtE sorcerers look bad. Then throw in the other bard subclasses and its even worse in comparison.
3e had crafting rules that worked for that edition with a constant magic item churn. This edition seems to expect characters to make it to 20th level with 3 permanent magic items and a bunch of single use ones.
You’re the one who has a problem comparing things from 5e to their older edition iterations, not I. 🤷♂️
Actually, this edition expects people to make it to 20th level without any magic items whatsoever, that’s how CR and the Adventuring Day are all balanced.
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This edition expects basic magic weapons. Otherwise most of the martial classes drastially drop in effectiveness beginning around 6th level. Depending on the enncounter they may have nothing to contribute except taking attacks while the casters actually take out the enemies.
I like the idea of an Alchemist to be a full caster like how a Warlock is a full caster (they have limits but also additions).
However, I do see the Artificer(as a whole) as a 3/4 caster (not as good as a Sorc or Wiz, but better than a Ranger and Pald)
Not according to Jeremy Crawford. 🤷♂️ The only magic items they actively expect and balance for are potions of healing.
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I didn't say it was balanced. If they wanted balanced they should have dropped +1,2,3 weapons completely and gone with effect ones like wounding or flame tongue, or magic poison.
It is thrown into stark contrast in organized play where everyone can get a +1 weapon at 5th level so those classes can still be effective.
Take a mid tier 2 fighter, ranger, barbarian, or rogue into combat without a magic weapon and watch them struggle to do anything. Tier 3 is even worse in that quiet a few are resistant and some immune to nonmagic attacks.
Actually there is at least one poison "treated as magical" but it literally has no benefit because nothing is immune/restistant to non- magical poison. (Harvested poison from a beastmaster pet.)
I will also add that when poison gets mixed into the game Martals get a severe boost. (assuming no immunity or resistance)with enough access to poison the damage numbers can triple or quadruple baseline numbers (at level 5). Now I looked it up and roughtly 35-40% of creatures that have legendary actions are immune. that means the ""free"" damage will at least boost a martal fighting a legendary 60% of the time. (and many have minions that poison will also work on)
Now enemies have spell responses but they have to know to prep them or use them in combat. I find this to be interesting play .. making the pieces work together.
now one interesting bit is that artificers magic is "unique" in that it sometimes works better when supporting other classes or by sharing. an alchemy jug can fill the roll of harvesting. but your dm will have to decide if it only produces basic poison which is a lot harder to use than harvested ones.
I like the unique space an artificer works in with strong tank and support options. I just find myself a little bored in combat because (at least pre level 5) once I settle on a combat strategy I could almost run on "auto mode." a IMo extra choice of an attack cantrip would help and I didn't even take mending like a smart person.
What boost do martials get by mixing in poison? Unless you took poisoners kit as a tool proficiency you risk poisoning yourself to use poison. Applying takes an action (again unless feat or maybe some subclass) and the poison is only viable for one minute and only works on 1 strike, not round. Most creatures have decent con saves. And if the monster is immune to non-magic attacks and the martial doesn't have one then there is no delivery mechanism.
Poison doesn't make up for a basic magic weapon.
contact and injury poisons all can be applied out of combat not action required. they last until washed off (unless a specific exception is made which is only [item]Basic poison[item]). Poison a whole quiver and your good to go. poison all your weapons at least once and your good for one hit.
Poison is basically an elemental damage type so monsters are either immune/resisted or they are not. even if a monster is resistant or immune to Non-magic BPS They still can take poison damage. As far as i can tell taking 0 slashing/piercing Damage is still a delivery mechanism.
EDIT: JC has a tweet to the contrary about zero damage. this is one of the very few times I Disagree with his stance but it does exist. so only contact poisons not injury ones.
Sill my claim wasn't that magic weapons weren't needed. I only claimed that the ability to add extra damage(and riders) on some enemies is balanced out against no damage (without assistance) against some.
now for martials collecting poison. (I am including some artificer subclasses as martials because they focus on weapons over spells for a significant portion of their attacks)
There are 3 main routes
Now full casters all the time are looking for free ways to enhance damage spells but martials who use weapons have so many they usually dont even need to investigate options(aka poison) to get optimal damage out of their attacks. This is why I think the artificer rides the line between martials and caster just like how ranger does.
After rechecking, the basic poison is the one that is only good for a minute. The others are only good for 1 attack (or 3 pieces of ammunition). The ones easily available are really low DCs (basic 1d4 DC 10, serpent 3d6 DC 11). Even enemies that aren't resistant or immune will save most of the time.
Then think tier 2 where multi-attack comes into play and a martial hits may do a few dice of extra damage on their first strike, then either give up their next round action to re-apply or just give up on doing anything more than 1/2 damage against something with resistance.
There are only 2 contact poisons in the DMG and one cost 200GP/dose and the other 400GP/dose - this one is really campaign dependent; but from experience not worth it.
While there are many venomous / poisonous creatures each harvest only nets you 1 dose. Generally in 5e poison just isn't worth the effort involved.
An interesting alternative approach if you were going to have more spell casting for an Artificer would be to require them to learn their spells, but not like a wizard. Instead, they have to invent their spells through research or uncover schematics from other artificers. That would limit their spells known to avoid giving them too much of an advantage.
Personally, I love the idea of artificers generating all effects from gadgets or physical effects, and I think that’s how they should be flavored. I’d also take the trade of more limits on spells available and spell slots if it meant more infusions could be used at one time and magic items could be created more quickly and easily at earlier levels (maybe only common consumables at level 3, other levels would bring up the rarity tier and allow permanent items, etc.).
Buy a flying snake and keep it with your party supplies. 3d4 crittable poison ignoring your Con save is no joke. Note that one of the multiple house rules a DM needs to come up with to patch WOTC's laziness is how frequently you can harvest from a creature - if your DM sticks to strict RAW there's no listed limit and your damage output will skyrocket.
That's fantastic. 5% of the time you will roll a 1 on your animal handling check to harvest and probably take a bite from the snake or something.
I'm all for creative play, but if something is super easy then you have to ask why everyone else isn't doing it. If you can just buy an exotic snake and milk it you shouldn't need to because a dozen people in town will be selling the venom. The simplest answer would be that like many other exotic animals they do poorly in captivity. That could give PCs an advantage. If the only way to keep one healthy in a cage is to cast cure wounds on it every day then most people and most organizations wouldn't be able to spare the magic but for PCs a single first level spell slot isn't a deal breaker. It's just a high enough cost to discourage anyone from setting up a snake farm.
Chris Perkins also mirrored this opinion.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/how-was-5e-balanced-in-regards-to-magic-items/
That isn't my experience from playtesting pre-release or the modules afterwards. We did lots of prerelease, but only a couple of modules OotA, & PotA).
And Perkins reply assumes certain party builds that 5e isn't supposed to enforce.
a Beastmaster can guarantee it stays with the party safe and sound. This is why beastmaster rangers are one of the best at it But artificers and rogues can do it well by staying on top of skill checks.
Also it is an active part of the lore that Zhentarim keep flying snakes as pets and messengers. they also don't care about local laws. So it does happen. as for selling well its a high priced item with low demand so finding a buyer is more dangerous than just keeping and using it.
And it is still only 3d4 (7.5) poison damage on one attack. If your character is really into poison then you could switch weapons and have a dose on each. Which if you are into the whole harvesting and poisoner's kit go for it. But it doesn't make up for a simple magic weapon, especially at later tiers.
Using the Warlock spell progression: This is exactly how they should have approached it. They should feel very limited spellcasters resource-wise to improve balance, but not less competent learners of the arcane mysteries than a wizard.
Cutting Artificer spell capabilities feels just weird conceptually cuz even with all their features, druids and wizards will surpass them after lv 5. No question about it.
I think people often forget infusions are also tied to lv, attunement rules and more often than not the infusions feel behind the current party lv since their spell progression is somewhat what determined by the lvl of magical items and abilities the artificer can get.
Also tbh, bards exist. Why should artificers be less competent magic users than them? Feels really weird to me. Sure.... like some random guy with a lute has more understanding of magic than a guy dedicating their life to the study of magical infusions....? How does this hold up?