Though it could be cool to discuss some of possibilities for what could be done with a level 3 dip into artificer when combined with other classes.
I've mostly looked at the Armorer so far because I'm going to be playing one in an Icewind Dale campaign. I just recently got Tasha's and so I was browsing the Rune Knight as well and immediately I thought they were a good fit.
It got me considering other classes that could be a fun fit with artificer options. As a caveat to start this out, yes there are multiclassing restrictions but as long as you've got the minimum intelligence it should work out fine. Here we're going for the ways that an artificer can supplement with ONLY the three levels to get the specialization.
A LOT of builds can benefit from getting the Arcane Armor because the Infiltrator model gives you an undroppable ranged weapon and either cancels out disadvantage (perfect for Fighters, Paladins, Clerics or Barbarians who wear heavy armor) or gives you advantage. So your character either stops being a complete stealth liability or starts to be able to keep up with rangers. Melee builds that don't require a lot of bonus actions could use the arcane cannon of the artillerist to either increase their damage output or get a continual buffer of temporary hp.
Depending on when you take the dip you could get access to magic weapons and armor quickly and can spread some of that benefit across your party as needed.
Spellcasters could benefit from easy access to heavier armor and the enhanced arcane focus infusion as you can buff spell attack rolls. Doesn't do much for DC based spells, but if you plan spell choices properly it could be viable.
Crossbow builds are a natural fit for the artificer as you can use an infusion to copy the most crucial part of the Crossbow Expert feat and without sacrificing an ability score increase.
Those are some of the big bucket items that I can see working. There are some other considerations for more specific classes.
Arcane Archer - if I was DMing and someone wanted to play this with an artificer I'd house rule to allow for the armor ranged weapon to be used instead of the bow. More flavor than effectiveness, but still feels fun, particularly when considering how to re-skin some of your "shots".
Gunslinger - Again this is entirely DM dependent since right now it's either Matt Mercer's gunslinger build or a homebrew set. Alternatively if your DM is just letting you have a fighter with firearm proficiencies the Artificer gives you a *free* magical reload option. There's also the obvious dovetailing with the Artillerist in having a wandering cannon buddy.
Rune Knight - in addition to the thematic coolness of having rune-carved armor you get some additional skills and tools that can be buffed..
Psi warrior - synergies given the optimal psi warrior build has a higher int. If you're creating say a level 6 character you could have an effective INT based fighter right from the start.
I know for my character, I'll be mixing Wizard with Armorer, both for lowering the squishiness of the Wizard, and giving more spellslots to the Artificer.
A great pick for a multiclass dip is the battlesmith. from a mechanical standpoint you can get a build that doesn't depend on multiple different Ability scores to only depend on INT and CON (and maybe a bit of DEX or STR). Many of those you mentiones work great with the Battlesmith,too and work especially great when you don't have another bonus action.
Another great Multiclass I think should be considered is Rogue builds multiclassing with either 3 or 5 Battlesmith.
I don't actually think the Battlesmith is a great investment in terms of a 3 level dip. Yes you can use INT for magic weapons and you get some bonus proficiencies, but the Steel Defender is one of the main features of the Battlesmith and its hitpoints are completely dependent upon your Artificer level. So if you're a level 3 artificer it's going to have at most 22 HP (base two plus assuming a +5 from maxed Int and 5 * 3 class levels). While you can resurrect it after combat easily, you're burning one of your three Artificer spell slots for a weak minion. Yes, being able to use INT for melee attacks works great for a pure battlesmith, but for most classes it doesn't make a lot of sense since they're not INT based. The Bladesinger wizard sounds like not the worst fit, but if you don't have a high dex to boost your AC you're going to be in trouble since you can only effectively use that class while wearing light armor.
I really can't see why the rogue would go well with battlesmith. It seems like it'd make sense with a flanker you control to give you sneak attack, but again even with a level 5 dip into battlesmith you're only going to have 32 hp for your minion.
The whole idea of the battlesmith/rogue is to use ranged weapons (heavy crossbow with repeating shot) and attack at range with your INT. Since you can wear medium Armor you don't NEED a really high DEX (14 is enough) for AC and with the 5 levels you'll get 2 attacks and a pet that can enable your sneak attack. Sure each level you don't take artificer the Iron Defender doesn't get HP but each hit it takes is a hit nobody else takes. I somehow overread that it takes a spellsot to get the defender back up, but I think that one 1st level slot won't be that much of an investment compared to taking one more hit.
The Build might work better the other way around with only a dip in rogue (maybe 1) but I think I can see it.
Okay, I can see what you're going for, but it feels strange to say "let's build a rogue with crappy dexterity" since you're going to be less effective at a lot of the skills rogues are designed for. I also still think that while yes the Iron Defender can soak up a hit or two, at higher levels it's also going to be easily wiped out by AOO spells. Even a basic level 3 fireball can completely destroy it in one shot if the roll comes just a hair above average (since 8d6 averages out to 32 hp) It's certainly workable, but from a gameplay standpoint I think there are much better ways of building a higher DPS ranged character.
If you want to go rogue, armorer gives you advantage on stealth (which is great for using the 'hide' bonus action to get sniping options even without having someone else to supply sneak attack) and a free ranged weapon. Yes, it's only 1d6 base damage which isn't as much as the heavy crossbow, but you get a bonus to one attack every round: "Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with it, you can deal an extra 1d6 lightning damage to that target." The major source of damage for the rogue comes from sneak attack, not really from the weapon.
But depending on the nature of your campaign and how common magic is I can see this build working decently well and I can appreciate the flavor of a rogue who is a bit more intellectually focused.
Yea the more I think about it I think my build idea should be used the other way around - artificer with a dip in rogue. I currently play an artificer battlesmith with a crossbow and I thought about multiclassing into rogue for Expertise and Sneak Attack, but will probably stay full Artificer for now. But it seems it could be a great dmg boost for the ranged battlesmith
If the major purpose is to increase your damage output, three levels of ranger with the hunter and colossus slayer choice will give you a free 1d8 once per turn without need for ally positioning on sneak attack, plus three castings of hunter's mark which is +1d6 to each hit as well as access to the archery fighting style (which despite the name applies to all ranged attacks).
Two levels of artificer is really awesome for a thrown weapon battle master. Picking up the return infusion for your weapon completely alleviates the magic weapon problem thrown weapon fighters always have. And in the multiclass progression it comes online only one level after classes like the beast barb make their attacks magical. If you use a Dart for thrown weapon style + archery style + sharpshooter you can make a Yondu telekinetic arrow build.
I honestly haven't even explored what the various subclasses could do for a build like that. Been looking at the order of scribes wizard and various new rangers A LOT and I just haven't gotten around to much artificer research.
Any ideas on what the best subclass for a battle master thrower with an artificer dip would be?
You could go pretty much any subclass - armorer for a better Armor(duh.), Battlesmith for a mini-Steel Defender, Artilerist for a turret that could be helpful and thematic.
I just don't like that the Battlesmith and Artillerist have main features that scale by level. I'd probably go armorer, but there I don't like that the attacks granted are mostly never going to get used. After doing research I'm honestly not sure if the third level is worth it on the battle master thrower. Might be better to return to fighter or multiclass again into ranger.
I really like the idea of picking up infiltrator armor to build in a secondary "sneaky guy" role. I just hate when I don't use the entire buffalo if you know what I mean. Getting those lightning attacks and never using them will just feel bad to me.
I really like the idea of picking up infiltrator armor to build in a secondary "sneaky guy" role. I just hate when I don't use the entire buffalo if you know what I mean. Getting those lightning attacks and never using them will just feel bad to me.
That's the same reason why I dislike multiclassing into Battle Smith to get Battle Ready as an Arcane Trickster. You get the nice "Intelligence for attack and damage rolls" and magic weapon/armor, but also are stuck with a Steel Defender and other artificer specific features.
The artificer is a good class, but it's so specific in theme that multiclassing into it changes your character in mechanics and theme more than most classes do. I'm not complaining, it's just a kind of annoying part of multiclassing.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I'm building a Warforged Artificer Armorer / Rogue Inquisitive... although I still haven't decided which class will be primary and which will be the 'dip.' Both are pretty compelling...
Yeah Third_Sundering, I'm not about that low hp defender. And as someone that doesn't like asking for homebrew, I'd be stuck with a main feature I'm not excited about. I was hoping alchemist wasn't going to be so weak the second time I read it but that was a fool's errand. I'm pretty sure that my battle master thrower will be sticking to two levels.
I'm building a Warforged Artificer Armorer / Rogue Inquisitive... although I still haven't decided which class will be primary and which will be the 'dip.' Both are pretty compelling...
Armorer is definitely the best artificer subclass for a dip. It just so happens that on my particular battle master thrower, none of them are appealing. If you're building a character where you can use the armor's attack options as your main offense, then it's a great option I think. I would go armorer 5/ inquisitive x. I think you want to pick up extra attack and second level spells. 5 levels is not really a dip anymore, but I do like constructing builds in this way. Take a class to extra attack and then multiclass out for abilities you could not otherwise get.
Yeah... I've been thinking along the same lines. Although switching to Rogue dip (maxing at 3 or maaaaybe 4) and getting the Armorer 10 options holds some draw as well.
I could see you starting with one level of rogue for skills and expertise and then picking up levels two and three after artificer 5, or starting with artificer, going to 5, and then dipping into rogue. Either way you'll be left with armorer 5/inquisitive 3. I personally wouldn't plan the build past there. See how it plays and what you end up wanting out of the campaign. Character goals can change and you have more than enough of a skeleton to work off of with an 8 level build plan.
You may end up wanting to go back to artificer, or you may want to continue inquisitive. I think that will be best answered after you play the character through the formative part of its career.
Though it could be cool to discuss some of possibilities for what could be done with a level 3 dip into artificer when combined with other classes.
I've mostly looked at the Armorer so far because I'm going to be playing one in an Icewind Dale campaign. I just recently got Tasha's and so I was browsing the Rune Knight as well and immediately I thought they were a good fit.
It got me considering other classes that could be a fun fit with artificer options. As a caveat to start this out, yes there are multiclassing restrictions but as long as you've got the minimum intelligence it should work out fine. Here we're going for the ways that an artificer can supplement with ONLY the three levels to get the specialization.
A LOT of builds can benefit from getting the Arcane Armor because the Infiltrator model gives you an undroppable ranged weapon and either cancels out disadvantage (perfect for Fighters, Paladins, Clerics or Barbarians who wear heavy armor) or gives you advantage. So your character either stops being a complete stealth liability or starts to be able to keep up with rangers. Melee builds that don't require a lot of bonus actions could use the arcane cannon of the artillerist to either increase their damage output or get a continual buffer of temporary hp.
Depending on when you take the dip you could get access to magic weapons and armor quickly and can spread some of that benefit across your party as needed.
Spellcasters could benefit from easy access to heavier armor and the enhanced arcane focus infusion as you can buff spell attack rolls. Doesn't do much for DC based spells, but if you plan spell choices properly it could be viable.
Crossbow builds are a natural fit for the artificer as you can use an infusion to copy the most crucial part of the Crossbow Expert feat and without sacrificing an ability score increase.
Those are some of the big bucket items that I can see working. There are some other considerations for more specific classes.
Arcane Archer - if I was DMing and someone wanted to play this with an artificer I'd house rule to allow for the armor ranged weapon to be used instead of the bow. More flavor than effectiveness, but still feels fun, particularly when considering how to re-skin some of your "shots".
Gunslinger - Again this is entirely DM dependent since right now it's either Matt Mercer's gunslinger build or a homebrew set. Alternatively if your DM is just letting you have a fighter with firearm proficiencies the Artificer gives you a *free* magical reload option. There's also the obvious dovetailing with the Artillerist in having a wandering cannon buddy.
Rune Knight - in addition to the thematic coolness of having rune-carved armor you get some additional skills and tools that can be buffed..
Psi warrior - synergies given the optimal psi warrior build has a higher int. If you're creating say a level 6 character you could have an effective INT based fighter right from the start.
I know for my character, I'll be mixing Wizard with Armorer, both for lowering the squishiness of the Wizard, and giving more spellslots to the Artificer.
A great pick for a multiclass dip is the battlesmith. from a mechanical standpoint you can get a build that doesn't depend on multiple different Ability scores to only depend on INT and CON (and maybe a bit of DEX or STR). Many of those you mentiones work great with the Battlesmith,too and work especially great when you don't have another bonus action.
Another great Multiclass I think should be considered is Rogue builds multiclassing with either 3 or 5 Battlesmith.
I'll be multiclassing a Bladesinger with Armorer.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I don't actually think the Battlesmith is a great investment in terms of a 3 level dip. Yes you can use INT for magic weapons and you get some bonus proficiencies, but the Steel Defender is one of the main features of the Battlesmith and its hitpoints are completely dependent upon your Artificer level. So if you're a level 3 artificer it's going to have at most 22 HP (base two plus assuming a +5 from maxed Int and 5 * 3 class levels). While you can resurrect it after combat easily, you're burning one of your three Artificer spell slots for a weak minion. Yes, being able to use INT for melee attacks works great for a pure battlesmith, but for most classes it doesn't make a lot of sense since they're not INT based. The Bladesinger wizard sounds like not the worst fit, but if you don't have a high dex to boost your AC you're going to be in trouble since you can only effectively use that class while wearing light armor.
I really can't see why the rogue would go well with battlesmith. It seems like it'd make sense with a flanker you control to give you sneak attack, but again even with a level 5 dip into battlesmith you're only going to have 32 hp for your minion.
The whole idea of the battlesmith/rogue is to use ranged weapons (heavy crossbow with repeating shot) and attack at range with your INT. Since you can wear medium Armor you don't NEED a really high DEX (14 is enough) for AC and with the 5 levels you'll get 2 attacks and a pet that can enable your sneak attack. Sure each level you don't take artificer the Iron Defender doesn't get HP but each hit it takes is a hit nobody else takes. I somehow overread that it takes a spellsot to get the defender back up, but I think that one 1st level slot won't be that much of an investment compared to taking one more hit.
The Build might work better the other way around with only a dip in rogue (maybe 1) but I think I can see it.
Okay, I can see what you're going for, but it feels strange to say "let's build a rogue with crappy dexterity" since you're going to be less effective at a lot of the skills rogues are designed for. I also still think that while yes the Iron Defender can soak up a hit or two, at higher levels it's also going to be easily wiped out by AOO spells. Even a basic level 3 fireball can completely destroy it in one shot if the roll comes just a hair above average (since 8d6 averages out to 32 hp) It's certainly workable, but from a gameplay standpoint I think there are much better ways of building a higher DPS ranged character.
If you want to go rogue, armorer gives you advantage on stealth (which is great for using the 'hide' bonus action to get sniping options even without having someone else to supply sneak attack) and a free ranged weapon. Yes, it's only 1d6 base damage which isn't as much as the heavy crossbow, but you get a bonus to one attack every round: "Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with it, you can deal an extra 1d6 lightning damage to that target." The major source of damage for the rogue comes from sneak attack, not really from the weapon.
But depending on the nature of your campaign and how common magic is I can see this build working decently well and I can appreciate the flavor of a rogue who is a bit more intellectually focused.
Yea the more I think about it I think my build idea should be used the other way around - artificer with a dip in rogue. I currently play an artificer battlesmith with a crossbow and I thought about multiclassing into rogue for Expertise and Sneak Attack, but will probably stay full Artificer for now. But it seems it could be a great dmg boost for the ranged battlesmith
If the major purpose is to increase your damage output, three levels of ranger with the hunter and colossus slayer choice will give you a free 1d8 once per turn without need for ally positioning on sneak attack, plus three castings of hunter's mark which is +1d6 to each hit as well as access to the archery fighting style (which despite the name applies to all ranged attacks).
Two levels of artificer is really awesome for a thrown weapon battle master. Picking up the return infusion for your weapon completely alleviates the magic weapon problem thrown weapon fighters always have. And in the multiclass progression it comes online only one level after classes like the beast barb make their attacks magical. If you use a Dart for thrown weapon style + archery style + sharpshooter you can make a Yondu telekinetic arrow build.
I honestly haven't even explored what the various subclasses could do for a build like that. Been looking at the order of scribes wizard and various new rangers A LOT and I just haven't gotten around to much artificer research.
Any ideas on what the best subclass for a battle master thrower with an artificer dip would be?
You could go pretty much any subclass - armorer for a better Armor(duh.), Battlesmith for a mini-Steel Defender, Artilerist for a turret that could be helpful and thematic.
I just don't like that the Battlesmith and Artillerist have main features that scale by level. I'd probably go armorer, but there I don't like that the attacks granted are mostly never going to get used. After doing research I'm honestly not sure if the third level is worth it on the battle master thrower. Might be better to return to fighter or multiclass again into ranger.
That's a cool idea, I do think all you need is two levels if you're just going for a free magic/returning thrown weapon.
I really like the idea of picking up infiltrator armor to build in a secondary "sneaky guy" role. I just hate when I don't use the entire buffalo if you know what I mean. Getting those lightning attacks and never using them will just feel bad to me.
That's the same reason why I dislike multiclassing into Battle Smith to get Battle Ready as an Arcane Trickster. You get the nice "Intelligence for attack and damage rolls" and magic weapon/armor, but also are stuck with a Steel Defender and other artificer specific features.
The artificer is a good class, but it's so specific in theme that multiclassing into it changes your character in mechanics and theme more than most classes do. I'm not complaining, it's just a kind of annoying part of multiclassing.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm building a Warforged Artificer Armorer / Rogue Inquisitive... although I still haven't decided which class will be primary and which will be the 'dip.' Both are pretty compelling...
Yeah Third_Sundering, I'm not about that low hp defender. And as someone that doesn't like asking for homebrew, I'd be stuck with a main feature I'm not excited about. I was hoping alchemist wasn't going to be so weak the second time I read it but that was a fool's errand. I'm pretty sure that my battle master thrower will be sticking to two levels.
Armorer is definitely the best artificer subclass for a dip. It just so happens that on my particular battle master thrower, none of them are appealing. If you're building a character where you can use the armor's attack options as your main offense, then it's a great option I think. I would go armorer 5/ inquisitive x. I think you want to pick up extra attack and second level spells. 5 levels is not really a dip anymore, but I do like constructing builds in this way. Take a class to extra attack and then multiclass out for abilities you could not otherwise get.
Yeah... I've been thinking along the same lines. Although switching to Rogue dip (maxing at 3 or maaaaybe 4) and getting the Armorer 10 options holds some draw as well.
I could see you starting with one level of rogue for skills and expertise and then picking up levels two and three after artificer 5, or starting with artificer, going to 5, and then dipping into rogue. Either way you'll be left with armorer 5/inquisitive 3. I personally wouldn't plan the build past there. See how it plays and what you end up wanting out of the campaign. Character goals can change and you have more than enough of a skeleton to work off of with an 8 level build plan.
You may end up wanting to go back to artificer, or you may want to continue inquisitive. I think that will be best answered after you play the character through the formative part of its career.
I was thinking along the same lines... although I may go more like this (for story reasons - it's far from optimal)
There's definitely something to be said for getting Artificer 5 sooner though...