So in a recent game our barbarian ran out of rages and was trying to convince the party to take a long rest in a dungeon. Im not against this idea but it didnt really make sense at the time. We were trying to get through this place quickly and most of the party was doing alright. We werent 100% but the only person who would have greatly benefeited from a long rest was the barbarian. The party decides to take a short rest and move on. Down the hallway we have a small encounter with a necromancer and some undead. The barbarian decides to runthrough a crowd of undead before our cleric can use turn undead... The barbarian then goes down and our cleric is immediatly trying to do her best to keep the barbarian alive. The rest of the party manages to deal with the encounter just fine but afterwards the barbarian is pissed and insists on taking a long rest. My question is, were we being ******** for not taking the long rest originally and how bad is it for a barbarian to not be able to rage?
It isn't so bad, and they should manage their rages better. The rage is their greatest strength, not their only one. This is also why they added in the rules a line that says that you can't benefit from more than one long rest in 24 hours. Otherwise, people would just blast all their resources and then sleep, never caring about running out of them. Besides, a non-raged Barbarian is still a melee fighter with advantage on attacks (possibly and with risk), advantage on dex saves (most of the time) and more, depending on what levels (I assume you're not level 1, but if so then both of the things I listed are not available yet).
However, it sounds to me that no one else used their resources, which seems to be the problem because:
1. The fights where he used his rage were easy ones, wasting his rage too early. 2. These fights where he used his rage were very dependant on him and all of you just refrained from using your resources leading to the result to which you got.
Either way, it's their choice when to use their rages, but they can't expect you to long rest every 2 fights.
However, you must remember and remind that player that your level 1-2 characters are still weak, running without thinking will often be a bad idea.
But, one last thing, also remember he's a Barbarian. I assume he has a low Int score. Maybe that's his character. That is fine, and approaching the problem through RP is the best solution. Have one of the CHARACTERS talk to their character, explaining that they are not tired yet, or telling them that they shouldn't run into a fight if they feel like they can't fight at their full strength at the moment.
Yeah this sounds like poor rage management. What level are you? I'm guessing they have between 2-4 rages. Even at 4 it's quite easy for a DM to exhaust that finite a resource through multiple small encounters. If rage was meant to be used every combat they would have given it different scaling. It's meant to be a balancing act. If that is going to be something the DM does on a fairly consistent basis it might be nice for the DM to talk with the barbarian player about expectations of raging every combat.
They also didn't have to play that last encounter like a buffoon. Making bad decisions and then blaming it on class abilities is lame. Hopefully they can learn that Barbarian is not a totally mindless class, and does benefit from some cost/benefit analysis.
There was nothing wrong with all of you not taking a long rest. Not only is it really disruptive to the pacing/excitement of the mission, it simply makes no sense to try and camp out in the middle of a hostile dungeon environment.
I agree with the other posts here: He was careless to just burn through all his rages, and he was an idiot to just run into combat unthinking and get himself killed (it sounds like he was acting like a spoiled child having a tantrum, although that may not be correct).
I think, as a DM in that situation, I may have allowed the long rest that once (or some other mitigation), with a warning that it was a one off and he needed to manage his resources better. This would be the same as a spellcaster running out of slots: I'd probably allow them one "gimme", but after that, they are stuck with the consequences of their actions. Over time, they will learn to balance what to use when (although if the game suddenly changes, say you go from 2-3 combats per day to a dungeon with half a dozen, a warning would be a good idea).
The "gimme" is a great point. It's nice when a DM gives a break to a newer player because this game is so vast you're bound to not account for everything when you're learning. This player does sound quite new to the game based on their actions/reactions.
Communication is the key here. Players need to know they're being cut a little slack one time because the game is punishing, but that they are expected to learn and adapt and not count on anything like that again. I was playing with a couple new players in my last campaign and my DM made great use of this policy. It helps keep people engaged before they're entrenched in the game, and when done right, can even make the stakes feel higher than ever.
A barbarian without rage is pretty much only a weak fighter. it's a resource to be managed though, he shouldn't be raging every fight.
Something to remember when you're asking him to not rage every fight...is that when he chooses to not rage, he's only a weak fighter. People make barbarians because they want to rage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
A barbarian without rage is pretty much only a weak fighter. it's a resource to be managed though, he shouldn't be raging every fight.
Something to remember when you're asking him to not rage every fight...is that when he chooses to not rage, he's only a weak fighter. People make barbarians because they want to rage.
I don't agree at all. At-will advantage on attack rolls, advantage on Dex saves, extra movement, etc. These are all pretty darn good abilities. The base fighter gets some good things as well, but i don't think it would be the runaway winner, even if you take away rage from the barbarian.
Ugh. Reckless Attacks. I hate to love it. Such a beautiful ability but it's such a bummer it makes AC stacking on a Barb questionably useful. It heavily incentivizes the use of resistance as your defense, which then heavily incentivizes bear totem. I don't think bear totem would be so pervasive if Reckless Attack wasn't designed the way it was. But enough griping.
I agree the Barbarian has plenty going for it outside of rage but it is definitely not as good as a fighter when not going into hulk smash mode. I believe we hold it at about the same power level SeanJP. It's similar to a Paladin not using smites. Non-rage Barb and Non-smite Pally both have plenty going for them, but their highs have lows. The fighter is much more steady with its power throughout an adventuring day.
Reckless Attacks works just fine. The whole point of Rage granting those common resistances (even against magical attacks) is to survive enemies having advantage. When you functionally have double or more HP than anyone else, you can suffer a few more hits. Especially when any healing is efficient. And at higher levels, the resistances matter less as more magical tools are added to the game.
Bear is great, but it's mostly a resource saver. I find eagle and wolf to be the more attractive 3rd-level options in the PHB because they're proactive and can be used more consistently.
Reckless attack is great, but you are far more likely to be hit and be hit with a critical. Those extra HP don't last long if you are hit with every attack and can't reduce the damage.
Reckless Attacks works just fine. The whole point of Rage granting those common resistances (even against magical attacks) is to survive enemies having advantage. When you functionally have double or more HP than anyone else, you can suffer a few more hits. Especially when any healing is efficient. And at higher levels, the resistances matter less as more magical tools are added to the game.
You seem to not understand my point. I wasn't saying reckless attack doesn't work. And then you repeat what I said about resistance as the best defense for reckless attacks but as a reasoning why Reckless Attack works, which again, wasn't my point to begin with.
Bear is great, but it's mostly a resource saver. I find eagle and wolf to be the more attractive 3rd-level options in the PHB because they're proactive and can be used more consistently.
You are in a very small minority. Bear Totem has the best defenses of any barbarian hands down. The competition isn't close because reckless attack undermines the AC stacking of a non Bear Totem barbs trying to keep up.
There are 13 damage types. Bear Totem gives you resistance to 9 of them. Bear Totem is used with a high degree of consistency. Wolf is good but Eagle is a bad joke. C'mon. You cannot compare their power levels. Bear Totem is on a completely different level.
Reckless attack is great, but you are far more likely to be hit and be hit with a critical. Those extra HP don't last long if you are hit with every attack and can't reduce the damage.
The extra HP is the reduced damage. Damage resistances functionally double your hit points against that damage type or types. Reckless Attacks is great when the barbarian has is using Rage. Under other circumstances, they're better off with a one-handed weapon and shield.
Reckless attack is great, but you are far more likely to be hit and be hit with a critical. Those extra HP don't last long if you are hit with every attack and can't reduce the damage.
The extra HP is the reduced damage. Damage resistances functionally double your hit points against that damage type or types. Reckless Attacks is great when the barbarian has is using Rage. Under other circumstances, they're better off with a one-handed weapon and shield.
This is what I was trying to imply. Reckless without Rage is not a good idea.
Golaryn: It seems to be a pattern of repeating what others say but framing it as a disagreement. Confusion or intentional? Who knows lol
I've never actually played a Barbarian in 5e but I could imagine rage "budgeting" could be quite tiresome. I don't miss the various rage cycling mechanics that were so pervasive in 3.5 and pathfinder, but I don't know. Something lacking for me in the way rage was designed in conjunction with the rest of the barb kit.
I certainly understand why the situation in the OP happened.
Reckless attack is great, but you are far more likely to be hit and be hit with a critical. Those extra HP don't last long if you are hit with every attack and can't reduce the damage.
The extra HP is the reduced damage. Damage resistances functionally double your hit points against that damage type or types. Reckless Attacks is great when the barbarian has is using Rage. Under other circumstances, they're better off with a one-handed weapon and shield.
This is what I was trying to imply. Reckless without Rage is not a good idea.
Gotcha. For a second I thought you meant they should use Reckless Attacks sans Rage. Good to know we're on the same page.
all in all id have to agree and disagree, managing rages is a big deal with barbarians as a lot of the class features that make them behemoths come from rage. even if they are trying to blow through the dungeon at a fast pace you might run out of rages, at that point have the barbarian stick next to squishy people as some protection and maybe buff them with a spell to make them better in combat. A barbarian looses their entire subclass without rages, along with resistance, which is the reason they can stay in battle for so long. If your barb is level 5 they'll have 2 attacks that they can take risky advantage on, adv on dex saves, and are a little faster than others and that's it.
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So in a recent game our barbarian ran out of rages and was trying to convince the party to take a long rest in a dungeon. Im not against this idea but it didnt really make sense at the time. We were trying to get through this place quickly and most of the party was doing alright. We werent 100% but the only person who would have greatly benefeited from a long rest was the barbarian. The party decides to take a short rest and move on. Down the hallway we have a small encounter with a necromancer and some undead. The barbarian decides to runthrough a crowd of undead before our cleric can use turn undead... The barbarian then goes down and our cleric is immediatly trying to do her best to keep the barbarian alive. The rest of the party manages to deal with the encounter just fine but afterwards the barbarian is pissed and insists on taking a long rest. My question is, were we being ******** for not taking the long rest originally and how bad is it for a barbarian to not be able to rage?
It isn't so bad, and they should manage their rages better. The rage is their greatest strength, not their only one. This is also why they added in the rules a line that says that you can't benefit from more than one long rest in 24 hours. Otherwise, people would just blast all their resources and then sleep, never caring about running out of them. Besides, a non-raged Barbarian is still a melee fighter with advantage on attacks (possibly and with risk), advantage on dex saves (most of the time) and more, depending on what levels (I assume you're not level 1, but if so then both of the things I listed are not available yet).
However, it sounds to me that no one else used their resources, which seems to be the problem because:
1. The fights where he used his rage were easy ones, wasting his rage too early.
2. These fights where he used his rage were very dependant on him and all of you just refrained from using your resources leading to the result to which you got.
Either way, it's their choice when to use their rages, but they can't expect you to long rest every 2 fights.
However, you must remember and remind that player that your level 1-2 characters are still weak, running without thinking will often be a bad idea.
But, one last thing, also remember he's a Barbarian. I assume he has a low Int score. Maybe that's his character. That is fine, and approaching the problem through RP is the best solution. Have one of the CHARACTERS talk to their character, explaining that they are not tired yet, or telling them that they shouldn't run into a fight if they feel like they can't fight at their full strength at the moment.
Varielky
Yeah this sounds like poor rage management. What level are you? I'm guessing they have between 2-4 rages. Even at 4 it's quite easy for a DM to exhaust that finite a resource through multiple small encounters. If rage was meant to be used every combat they would have given it different scaling. It's meant to be a balancing act. If that is going to be something the DM does on a fairly consistent basis it might be nice for the DM to talk with the barbarian player about expectations of raging every combat.
They also didn't have to play that last encounter like a buffoon. Making bad decisions and then blaming it on class abilities is lame. Hopefully they can learn that Barbarian is not a totally mindless class, and does benefit from some cost/benefit analysis.
There was nothing wrong with all of you not taking a long rest. Not only is it really disruptive to the pacing/excitement of the mission, it simply makes no sense to try and camp out in the middle of a hostile dungeon environment.
I agree with the other posts here: He was careless to just burn through all his rages, and he was an idiot to just run into combat unthinking and get himself killed (it sounds like he was acting like a spoiled child having a tantrum, although that may not be correct).
I think, as a DM in that situation, I may have allowed the long rest that once (or some other mitigation), with a warning that it was a one off and he needed to manage his resources better. This would be the same as a spellcaster running out of slots: I'd probably allow them one "gimme", but after that, they are stuck with the consequences of their actions. Over time, they will learn to balance what to use when (although if the game suddenly changes, say you go from 2-3 combats per day to a dungeon with half a dozen, a warning would be a good idea).
The "gimme" is a great point. It's nice when a DM gives a break to a newer player because this game is so vast you're bound to not account for everything when you're learning. This player does sound quite new to the game based on their actions/reactions.
Communication is the key here. Players need to know they're being cut a little slack one time because the game is punishing, but that they are expected to learn and adapt and not count on anything like that again. I was playing with a couple new players in my last campaign and my DM made great use of this policy. It helps keep people engaged before they're entrenched in the game, and when done right, can even make the stakes feel higher than ever.
A barbarian without rage is pretty much only a weak fighter. it's a resource to be managed though, he shouldn't be raging every fight.
Something to remember when you're asking him to not rage every fight...is that when he chooses to not rage, he's only a weak fighter. People make barbarians because they want to rage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I don't agree at all. At-will advantage on attack rolls, advantage on Dex saves, extra movement, etc. These are all pretty darn good abilities. The base fighter gets some good things as well, but i don't think it would be the runaway winner, even if you take away rage from the barbarian.
Ugh. Reckless Attacks. I hate to love it. Such a beautiful ability but it's such a bummer it makes AC stacking on a Barb questionably useful. It heavily incentivizes the use of resistance as your defense, which then heavily incentivizes bear totem. I don't think bear totem would be so pervasive if Reckless Attack wasn't designed the way it was. But enough griping.
I agree the Barbarian has plenty going for it outside of rage but it is definitely not as good as a fighter when not going into hulk smash mode. I believe we hold it at about the same power level SeanJP. It's similar to a Paladin not using smites. Non-rage Barb and Non-smite Pally both have plenty going for them, but their highs have lows. The fighter is much more steady with its power throughout an adventuring day.
Reckless Attacks works just fine. The whole point of Rage granting those common resistances (even against magical attacks) is to survive enemies having advantage. When you functionally have double or more HP than anyone else, you can suffer a few more hits. Especially when any healing is efficient. And at higher levels, the resistances matter less as more magical tools are added to the game.
Bear is great, but it's mostly a resource saver. I find eagle and wolf to be the more attractive 3rd-level options in the PHB because they're proactive and can be used more consistently.
Reckless attack is great, but you are far more likely to be hit and be hit with a critical. Those extra HP don't last long if you are hit with every attack and can't reduce the damage.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You seem to not understand my point. I wasn't saying reckless attack doesn't work. And then you repeat what I said about resistance as the best defense for reckless attacks but as a reasoning why Reckless Attack works, which again, wasn't my point to begin with.
You are in a very small minority. Bear Totem has the best defenses of any barbarian hands down. The competition isn't close because reckless attack undermines the AC stacking of a non Bear Totem barbs trying to keep up.
There are 13 damage types. Bear Totem gives you resistance to 9 of them. Bear Totem is used with a high degree of consistency. Wolf is good but Eagle is a bad joke. C'mon. You cannot compare their power levels. Bear Totem is on a completely different level.
Only Bear Totems have functionally double HP.
The extra HP is the reduced damage. Damage resistances functionally double your hit points against that damage type or types. Reckless Attacks is great when the barbarian has is using Rage. Under other circumstances, they're better off with a one-handed weapon and shield.
This is what I was trying to imply. Reckless without Rage is not a good idea.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Golaryn: It seems to be a pattern of repeating what others say but framing it as a disagreement. Confusion or intentional? Who knows lol
I've never actually played a Barbarian in 5e but I could imagine rage "budgeting" could be quite tiresome. I don't miss the various rage cycling mechanics that were so pervasive in 3.5 and pathfinder, but I don't know. Something lacking for me in the way rage was designed in conjunction with the rest of the barb kit.
I certainly understand why the situation in the OP happened.
Gotcha. For a second I thought you meant they should use Reckless Attacks sans Rage. Good to know we're on the same page.
all in all id have to agree and disagree, managing rages is a big deal with barbarians as a lot of the class features that make them behemoths come from rage. even if they are trying to blow through the dungeon at a fast pace you might run out of rages, at that point have the barbarian stick next to squishy people as some protection and maybe buff them with a spell to make them better in combat. A barbarian looses their entire subclass without rages, along with resistance, which is the reason they can stay in battle for so long. If your barb is level 5 they'll have 2 attacks that they can take risky advantage on, adv on dex saves, and are a little faster than others and that's it.