Valor bard is Swords bard without the flourishes and strictly better due to shield proficiency, cantrips instead of attack, combat inspiration and battle magic. Funny that if you use 2024 base bard with swords bard - only thing you would be better at is being a tank due to defensive flourish stacking with shield spell.
New Valor Bards vs Sword Bards comes down to are your Inspiration for you or for others.
What I mean is the New Valor Bards can not give Inspiration to one's self. It is still for others only.
Mind you I do not have the book yet so I am going of what I have seen online.
inspire others through words, music, or dance.
A creature that has a Bardic Inspiration die from you can use it for one of the following effects:
These 2 parts from the play test show you are not giving the Defence or Offence to your self since you can not Inspire your self with this. The Swords is using it on their own attacks. I just hope when Swords get a update they also get the cast a cantrip option that I think all gish builds should have.
I think the dance bard is more competition to the swords bard as an alternative to the valor bard.
At 3rd level the swords bard get medium armor, scimitar, a fighting style feat, and flourishes. The dance bard gets dazzling footwork for AC and extra unarmed attacks.
At 6th level the swords bard gets extra attack. The dance bard gets inspiring movement and tandem footwork. Bonus initiative and repositioning are pretty nice when the dance bard already has those extra attacks from dazzling footwork. The swords bard did get an added benefit in the ability to fuel flourishes by using spell slots to recover bardic inspiration, though.
When both were put forth as mobility I think inspiring movement is better than the swords bard 10' bonus movement using flourishes.
At 14th level the swords bard gets low end flourishes that don't expend bardic inspiration. The dance bard gets evasion and the ability to share that evasion with others who are close to them.
I don't think the dance bard makes the swords bard obsolete by any means, but if mobility was a consideration in choosing the college I'd probably go dance bard. The extra attack feature is still good compared to a limited number (even if that limit is a lot) of extra unarmed attacks.
The valor bard has a shield, extra attack, can also use a weapon as a focus, and can mix cantrips in with the extra attacks. The swords bard still has a mobility advantage with flourishes and a fighting style. I prefer how the valor bard can mix spells and combat, and is focused on inspiring others, but I can see see the swords bard having their place.
I'll add that I like the changes to the glamour bard too.
So I've been looking at the College of Swords bard and comparing to 2024 College of Valor in preparation for a campaign I'm starting up soon. Glad I found this thread.
To me, the College of Swords is still pretty good, but needs a few changes.
Rename the college to "College of Blades" (which funny enough is closer to the old Blade kit)
3rd level - Allow the following Fighting Styles: Dueling, Two-Weapon Fighting, Thown Weapon Fighting (possibly even Blind Fighting)
Flourishes are all pretty good. Don't think there is need to change
6th level extra attack - still great no changes needed
14th Master's Flourish - This one is not that great. With how many Bardic Inspiration Dice you get and how you can get them back quickly I don't know why you would want to not spend them to get only a d6. Not sure what to replace with though, I'm thinking something like on of the following:
Reroll the die if it is a 1 or below a certain number like CHA mod.
Allow to spend two Bardic Inspiration Dice for the extra damage.
So I've been looking at the College of Swords bard and comparing to 2024 College of Valor in preparation for a campaign I'm starting up soon. Glad I found this thread.
To me, the College of Swords is still pretty good, but needs a few changes.
Rename the college to "College of Blades" (which funny enough is closer to the old Blade kit)
3rd level - Allow the following Fighting Styles: Dueling, Two-Weapon Fighting, Thown Weapon Fighting (possibly even Blind Fighting)
Flourishes are all pretty good. Don't think there is need to change
6th level extra attack - still great no changes needed
14th Master's Flourish - This one is not that great. With how many Bardic Inspiration Dice you get and how you can get them back quickly I don't know why you would want to not spend them to get only a d6. Not sure what to replace with though, I'm thinking something like on of the following:
Reroll the die if it is a 1 or below a certain number like CHA mod.
Allow to spend two Bardic Inspiration Dice for the extra damage.
I agree on changing the name of the college to Blades.
New College of Blades should change the Level 14 ability so that your ability to unlimited Flourish uses 2d4 instead of 1d6. By level 14 PCs are facing stuff like mummies, giants, slaads, and demons/devils/yugoloths on the regular. College of Blades needs that bit of extra power since they will be casting spells less than the typical Bard.
So I've been looking at the College of Swords bard and comparing to 2024 College of Valor in preparation for a campaign I'm starting up soon. Glad I found this thread.
To me, the College of Swords is still pretty good, but needs a few changes.
Rename the college to "College of Blades" (which funny enough is closer to the old Blade kit)
3rd level - Allow the following Fighting Styles: Dueling, Two-Weapon Fighting, Thown Weapon Fighting (possibly even Blind Fighting)
Flourishes are all pretty good. Don't think there is need to change
6th level extra attack - still great no changes needed
14th Master's Flourish - This one is not that great. With how many Bardic Inspiration Dice you get and how you can get them back quickly I don't know why you would want to not spend them to get only a d6. Not sure what to replace with though, I'm thinking something like on of the following:
Reroll the die if it is a 1 or below a certain number like CHA mod.
Allow to spend two Bardic Inspiration Dice for the extra damage.
100% agree with both the name change and adding Thrown Weapon Fighting to the list, as I think it fits the theme of the subclass while also expanding on how it can be used. I also agree that Master's Flourish needs a change now that there are so many ways to refresh Bardic Inspiration die. I think a consistent damage increase is the best solution for this.
I also think there are a couple of other things we can do for College of Blades to further set it apart from College of Valor and College of Dance, while still keeping Swords' focus on weapon damage, defense, and mobility in place. So here's my recommendation for changes:
Level 3: Blades Training: You gain proficiency with Rapiers, Scimitars, and Shortswords, and training with Shields. In addition, you can use a weapon you're proficient with as a Spellcasting Focus to cast spells from your Bard spell list.
I like the idea of this subclass being skilled with every bladed Finesse weapon, so adding Rapiers and Shortswords into the mix seemed like a good idea (since Bards don't get those proficiencies from the start anymore).
I'm dropping the Medium Armor proficiency. Restricting the College of Blades to Light Armor helps separate it from Valor and puts the focus on finesse and mobility, but adding Shields training ensures that you can trade offhand attacks for an extra source of AC if you prefer a more defensive playstyle.
Level 3: Fighting Style: You gain a Fighting Style feat of your choice from the following options: Dueling, Two-Weapon Fighting, or Thrown Weapon Fighting.
Again, Thrown Weapon Fighting feels like a great option for this subclass, especially if you like the idea of being a dagger-juggling showoff.
Level 3: Weapon Mastery: Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of two kinds of weapons of your choice with which you have proficiency, such as Rapiers and Daggers. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the mastery properties of Scimitars and Shortswords.
This feels like a great way to incorporate the updated 2024 rules while helping to give College of Blades a distinct advantage over Valor when it comes to weapon use. College of Blades is all about being a studied master of these weapons, so it makes sense that you'd know how to make the most of them.
Level 3: Blade Flourish: You learn to conduct impressive displays of martial prowess. Once during each of your turns, when you attack a creature using a weapon with which you're proficient, you can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to deal bonus damage to the target, whether you hit or not. The damage equals the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration die, and can be either Psychic damage or the weapon's normal damage type (your choice). You can also choose one of the following additional effects:
Defensive Flourish: You add the number rolled on your Bardic Inspiration die to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Slashing Flourish: You also deal the bonus damage to any other creature of your choice within 5 feet of you.
Mobile Flourish: You push the target up to 5 feet away from you, plus a number of feet equal to the number you rolled on your Bardic Inspiration die. Until the end of your turn, your walking speed also increases by 10 feet, and you don't provoke Opportunity Attacks against any creature you attack.
ThreeIMPORTANT changes here:
YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO SUCCESSFULLY HIT THE TARGET TO USE YOUR BLADE FLOURISH. This is the biggest and probably most controversial change I'd like to introduce, but I think it helps to make Blade Flourish much more consistently helpful. It fits into the narrative that this is Bard is EXTREMELY skilled with these weapons (which, to be fair, typically do less damage than most Martial weapons), and even if you aren't able to hit with the attack, your Bardic Inspiration is putting in the work to make your turn useful to some extent. Not having to actually hit the target is also especially important when considering the change I've made to Extra Attack.
You choose between either Psychic damage or the normal weapon damage type. Allowing the Psychic damage option plays into the idea of these flourishes being impressive, confusing displays that aren't necessarily direct attacks, and also gives a way to circumvent certain resistances.
The extra 10 feet of movement speed is now only granted if using Mobile Flourish. This ensures that there's a distinct movement speed advantage of using Mobile Flourish. And I liked the idea of bringing in the old "Mobile" feat's anti-opportunity attack bit in there, so that going on the offense still grants some degree of extra defense against targeted enemies. I also removed the "move up to your speed to the target" thing. With the extra speed and ignoring Opp Attacks, you'll be able to do that in most cases anyway. Removing it also helps keep the ability from sounding so complicated, and further separates it from the Barbarian's Forceful Blow option for Brutal Strikes.
Level 6: Extra Attack: You can attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. In addition, when you use your Action to cast a spell using a weapon with which your proficient, you can use your Bonus Action to use your Blade Flourish against a creature that is within 5 feet of you.
This is how I figured we could expand on the Extra Attack feature without just duplicating the version that Valor gets. It gives you a way to use your Blade Flourishes even when casting a spell, and again, with the change of not requiring you to actually hit a target, it's just a matter of selecting a target within melee range to use your Blade Flourish against.
Level 14: Master's Flourish: When you deal bonus damage with your Blade Flourish, add your Charisma modifier to the damage dealt.
Simple and straightforward. Since the Blade Flourish damage is now wholly separate from your actual weapon damage, I think just giving the user a flat damage increase for your Blade Flourishes is the best solution.
To sum it all up, adding in Weapon Masteries, making Blade Flourishes more consistently usable, and simplifying Master's Flourish would all help to make College of Blades feel unique from Valor or Dance, while also helping it stay competitive with those options in both melee and spellcasting.
So, wondering if people think the new Valor Bard will overshadow the sword bard or not
Valor bard is Swords bard without the flourishes and strictly better due to shield proficiency, cantrips instead of attack, combat inspiration and battle magic. Funny that if you use 2024 base bard with swords bard - only thing you would be better at is being a tank due to defensive flourish stacking with shield spell.
I noticed, I think the use of sword as a foci is the only real advantage on sword...
Cantrip with extra attack probably makes it the better subclass.
New Valor Bards vs Sword Bards comes down to are your Inspiration for you or for others.
What I mean is the New Valor Bards can not give Inspiration to one's self. It is still for others only.
Mind you I do not have the book yet so I am going of what I have seen online.
inspire others through words, music, or dance.
A creature that has a Bardic Inspiration die from you can use it for one of the following effects:
These 2 parts from the play test show you are not giving the Defence or Offence to your self since you can not Inspire your self with this. The Swords is using it on their own attacks. I just hope when Swords get a update they also get the cast a cantrip option that I think all gish builds should have.
I spell Goodly.
I think the dance bard is more competition to the swords bard as an alternative to the valor bard.
At 3rd level the swords bard get medium armor, scimitar, a fighting style feat, and flourishes. The dance bard gets dazzling footwork for AC and extra unarmed attacks.
At 6th level the swords bard gets extra attack. The dance bard gets inspiring movement and tandem footwork. Bonus initiative and repositioning are pretty nice when the dance bard already has those extra attacks from dazzling footwork. The swords bard did get an added benefit in the ability to fuel flourishes by using spell slots to recover bardic inspiration, though.
When both were put forth as mobility I think inspiring movement is better than the swords bard 10' bonus movement using flourishes.
At 14th level the swords bard gets low end flourishes that don't expend bardic inspiration. The dance bard gets evasion and the ability to share that evasion with others who are close to them.
I don't think the dance bard makes the swords bard obsolete by any means, but if mobility was a consideration in choosing the college I'd probably go dance bard. The extra attack feature is still good compared to a limited number (even if that limit is a lot) of extra unarmed attacks.
The valor bard has a shield, extra attack, can also use a weapon as a focus, and can mix cantrips in with the extra attacks. The swords bard still has a mobility advantage with flourishes and a fighting style. I prefer how the valor bard can mix spells and combat, and is focused on inspiring others, but I can see see the swords bard having their place.
I'll add that I like the changes to the glamour bard too.
So I've been looking at the College of Swords bard and comparing to 2024 College of Valor in preparation for a campaign I'm starting up soon. Glad I found this thread.
To me, the College of Swords is still pretty good, but needs a few changes.
I agree on changing the name of the college to Blades.
New College of Blades should change the Level 14 ability so that your ability to unlimited Flourish uses 2d4 instead of 1d6. By level 14 PCs are facing stuff like mummies, giants, slaads, and demons/devils/yugoloths on the regular. College of Blades needs that bit of extra power since they will be casting spells less than the typical Bard.
100% agree with both the name change and adding Thrown Weapon Fighting to the list, as I think it fits the theme of the subclass while also expanding on how it can be used. I also agree that Master's Flourish needs a change now that there are so many ways to refresh Bardic Inspiration die. I think a consistent damage increase is the best solution for this.
I also think there are a couple of other things we can do for College of Blades to further set it apart from College of Valor and College of Dance, while still keeping Swords' focus on weapon damage, defense, and mobility in place. So here's my recommendation for changes:
Level 3: Weapon Mastery: Your training with weapons allows you to use the mastery properties of two kinds of weapons of your choice with which you have proficiency, such as Rapiers and Daggers. Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change the kinds of weapons you chose. For example, you could switch to using the mastery properties of Scimitars and Shortswords.
Level 3: Blade Flourish: You learn to conduct impressive displays of martial prowess. Once during each of your turns, when you attack a creature using a weapon with which you're proficient, you can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to deal bonus damage to the target, whether you hit or not. The damage equals the number you roll on the Bardic Inspiration die, and can be either Psychic damage or the weapon's normal damage type (your choice). You can also choose one of the following additional effects:
To sum it all up, adding in Weapon Masteries, making Blade Flourishes more consistently usable, and simplifying Master's Flourish would all help to make College of Blades feel unique from Valor or Dance, while also helping it stay competitive with those options in both melee and spellcasting.