If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
I think you're underestimating the spell lists of wizards, clerics, and druids. Yes, bards get a nice list, but it's not THAT good.
When I planned out my nightmare bard based on Alice Cooper I didn't even touch another list until 17th level. Everything I was taking through the leveling process was already on the bard list or the bard spell prep mechanic was preventing me from taking more spells anyway.
The only really spectacular thing about magical secrets is it gives access to wish. Other than that one 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell is generally similar in power to another 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell. There's no doubt that a bard has a lot to choose from, but there's still only so many they get to actually choose. ;-)
The 2014 bard could only get 6 spells from other lists total, the 2024 can get way more than that.
That's where you're moving into "that's not accurate" territory.
The 2014 bard gained access to 6 spells through secrets and 4 (also good) bard spells for 10 high level spells. The 2024 bard has to select the bard spells they want from among the 8 spells they get instead of 10, and those last 2 don't come until 19th and 20th level. A class trait that doesn't really give an advantage until 19th level doesn't come online soon enough to call it an improvement when the magical secrets structure from 2014 within the class progression gave more sooner.
We can get more but we're still giving up spells to do it and we could already do the from the (also good) bard list.
Getting back to my Alice Cooper inspired bard, I did want dark vision but couldn't fit it in until 19th level because the limited spell selection was full of spells I still wanted and needed for the concept.
Saying that a spell that you picked before was desirable, and therefore trading it off is "sidegrading with little benefit" is completely wrong.
It's absolutely not wrong. Bards only prep so many spells and it's not hard to find spells we want. Just because more options become available doesn't mean the options we already had became less desirable.
It is very possible that the reason you chose that spell is because you didn't have anything better on your list. Well, now you do, so now that spell isn't so desirable anymore.
That's some massive conjecture going on there. ;-)
Are you trying to convince me the bard spells are full of junk but bards have this powerful ability because they don't use their own spell list? And WotC doesn't give them spells they want or need until 10th level when they suddenly have more options? Bards are OP because their spells aren't as good as other classes? Bards are OP because they have the ability to not take as many spells from another class than that class can take on it's own?
Where's the logic there? It looks like you're saying magical secrets is so good because bard spells aren't worth comparing to another class. ;-)
And maybe some spells were good back then, but not as good anymore at higher levels.
Lotta maybe going on. Maybe those spells are still desirable? Maybe?
So trading them off is also a big benefit.
Which spells are you talking about that give this big benefit?
There's a reason why other casters can also replace their spells. Sometimes they're good when you learn them, but not so much later. The cleric, druid, and particularly wizard lists have really powerful and useful spells. Replacing bard spells with those is far from "sidegrading with little benefit".
Bards can replace their spells as they level too for the reason you just gave. The 2014 version of sleep outlived it's usefulness and was often replaced. Magical secrets isn't needed for that.
Those powerful spells are already graded by an estimated power level in the spell levels. Bards have up to 9th level spells just like clerics, druids, and wizards. Those other classes have powerful spells that a bard might want, but they aren't more powerful in general than what a bard has. What they might do is serve a function not available or fit a design concept.
The only thing I do by adding fireball and giving up suggestion is add one spell that does damage and lose one spell that useful in other ways.
You're also underestimating how good it is to get spells earlier. It's actually really good.
That's why it's an overall nerf in 2024. The 2024 magical secrets doesn't grant higher level spells earlier. Bards already got higher level spells at the same levels as other casters. It only grants limited access to other lists earlier. But the 2014 magical secrets granted more spells prepared sooner, which is where your own argument comes in.
Having a powerful spell a whole level earlier can have a big impact in a campaign. Not to mention that not all of them are one level earlier. 7th and 9th are, but 8th is 3 levels earlier. That's not a small thing. Same with 6th level spells, they come 3 levels earlier.
Nope. Bards already have worthwhile 6th level spells to take at 11th level. It's in their own list. But at 10th level they only get 1 spell instead of 2 now. That's a loss.that carries forward. The difference between 10th level thru 14th level is 6 spells known (4 secrets) in the 2014 version and 3 spells known in the 2024 version.
We can't argue that 3 high level spells prepared is somehow better than 6; just being from another list doesn't cut it.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. That's a different topic. Both have good and bad things compared to the other. But you make it sound like the 2014 is objectively better, and the improvements of the 2024 one are minimal, and that's simply not true. Being able to get WAY more spells from other lists and getting them earlier is a really big benefit.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
I'm not gonna reply to each point because this is getting ridiculous. And also, discussing with someone who uses arguments as "MY bard didn't touch another list until level 17" is getting in the realm of "I like the bard list, therefore having access to other lists isn't a big deal". We could argue pointlessly if we both do what you're doing, and I replied "The spells I used the most often, by far, were the ones of other lists." Pointless argument, so I'll ignore it.
It's a build example that demonstrates my point. This response does not demonstrate your point, but I'd be happy to go into more detail or you can show a build that demonstrates your point.
It's fine if you like the bard list so much that you don't want other spells, but saying that nothing is a big deal until Wish is simply not true. Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Clone, Maze, Heal, Holy Aura, Conjure Minor Elementals, and others, they're all very powerful spells. If your bard decided they didn't like it, fine, but that's a very weak argument against these spells. The 2014 bard could only get 6 of them, and most of them at later levels.
It's not that they are weak spells or that they aren't liked. It's that other spells also have priority. It's that they are all spells that can already be covered by wish and once that's in place there aren't enough levels left to switch many of them back.
The 2014 version allowed for taking those as well but I can also take force cage, teleport, scrying, power word stun, foresight, animate objects, and mass suggestion. Those are powerful and useful spells too. You're ignoring the opportunity cost inherent to the selection process.
Your argument is one of "quantity > quality", which I think is very questionable when it comes to spells. Nobody says bards don't get good spells, of course they do. But saying that their list is good enough to basically ignore all these spells and all others from these lists is ridiculous. "Bards can finds spells they want." Of course, every class does. You look at your list, see which ones are good enough for you, and then pick them. That doesn't mean the list is just as good as the other lists. It simply means that the list has spells that you'd like to cast. If your bard could learn spells from every list since level one, would you strictly stick to the bard list anyway? Apparently, yes, but you'd be a tiny minority, and for good reason.
Your argument of quality is an unproven statement. Quality exists inside and outside of the bard list. It's not like anyone says suggestion or hypnotic pattern are bad spells.
I would love to open up every list from level 1 because there are other spells I would also want. But that isn't how either version works. There still has to be a spell to give up and a spell to take, and it has to take a priority over other spells, and it has to be done at the rate allowance at those levels.
But yeah, this has all come down to "I don't think the spells of those 3 lists are good enough to make me want to pick spells other than the ones in the bard list, except for Wish." Which is your opinion, and you can play your bard however you want. But saying that the power and usefulness of the bard list is basically the same as the wizard, cleric, and druid combined is something very few people will agree with.
Those lists are irrelevant. We don't pick the lists, we pick spells from those lists and those spells are of a very limited quantity regardless. Bards have to pick and choose which ones at which times and that delay in adding high level spells is very impacting because of it.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
I think you're underestimating the spell lists of wizards, clerics, and druids. Yes, bards get a nice list, but it's not THAT good.
When I planned out my nightmare bard based on Alice Cooper I didn't even touch another list until 17th level. Everything I was taking through the leveling process was already on the bard list or the bard spell prep mechanic was preventing me from taking more spells anyway.
The only really spectacular thing about magical secrets is it gives access to wish. Other than that one 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell is generally similar in power to another 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell. There's no doubt that a bard has a lot to choose from, but there's still only so many they get to actually choose. ;-)
The 2014 bard could only get 6 spells from other lists total, the 2024 can get way more than that.
That's where you're moving into "that's not accurate" territory.
The 2014 bard gained access to 6 spells through secrets and 4 (also good) bard spells for 10 high level spells. The 2024 bard has to select the bard spells they want from among the 8 spells they get instead of 10, and those last 2 don't come until 19th and 20th level. A class trait that doesn't really give an advantage until 19th level doesn't come online soon enough to call it an improvement when the magical secrets structure from 2014 within the class progression gave more sooner.
We can get more but we're still giving up spells to do it and we could already do the from the (also good) bard list.
Getting back to my Alice Cooper inspired bard, I did want dark vision but couldn't fit it in until 19th level because the limited spell selection was full of spells I still wanted and needed for the concept.
Saying that a spell that you picked before was desirable, and therefore trading it off is "sidegrading with little benefit" is completely wrong.
It's absolutely not wrong. Bards only prep so many spells and it's not hard to find spells we want. Just because more options become available doesn't mean the options we already had became less desirable.
It is very possible that the reason you chose that spell is because you didn't have anything better on your list. Well, now you do, so now that spell isn't so desirable anymore.
That's some massive conjecture going on there. ;-)
Are you trying to convince me the bard spells are full of junk but bards have this powerful ability because they don't use their own spell list? And WotC doesn't give them spells they want or need until 10th level when they suddenly have more options? Bards are OP because their spells aren't as good as other classes? Bards are OP because they have the ability to not take as many spells from another class than that class can take on it's own?
Where's the logic there? It looks like you're saying magical secrets is so good because bard spells aren't worth comparing to another class. ;-)
And maybe some spells were good back then, but not as good anymore at higher levels.
Lotta maybe going on. Maybe those spells are still desirable? Maybe?
So trading them off is also a big benefit.
Which spells are you talking about that give this big benefit?
There's a reason why other casters can also replace their spells. Sometimes they're good when you learn them, but not so much later. The cleric, druid, and particularly wizard lists have really powerful and useful spells. Replacing bard spells with those is far from "sidegrading with little benefit".
Bards can replace their spells as they level too for the reason you just gave. The 2014 version of sleep outlived it's usefulness and was often replaced. Magical secrets isn't needed for that.
Those powerful spells are already graded by an estimated power level in the spell levels. Bards have up to 9th level spells just like clerics, druids, and wizards. Those other classes have powerful spells that a bard might want, but they aren't more powerful in general than what a bard has. What they might do is serve a function not available or fit a design concept.
The only thing I do by adding fireball and giving up suggestion is add one spell that does damage and lose one spell that useful in other ways.
You're also underestimating how good it is to get spells earlier. It's actually really good.
That's why it's an overall nerf in 2024. The 2024 magical secrets doesn't grant higher level spells earlier. Bards already got higher level spells at the same levels as other casters. It only grants limited access to other lists earlier. But the 2014 magical secrets granted more spells prepared sooner, which is where your own argument comes in.
Having a powerful spell a whole level earlier can have a big impact in a campaign. Not to mention that not all of them are one level earlier. 7th and 9th are, but 8th is 3 levels earlier. That's not a small thing. Same with 6th level spells, they come 3 levels earlier.
Nope. Bards already have worthwhile 6th level spells to take at 11th level. It's in their own list. But at 10th level they only get 1 spell instead of 2 now. That's a loss.that carries forward. The difference between 10th level thru 14th level is 6 spells known (4 secrets) in the 2014 version and 3 spells known in the 2024 version.
We can't argue that 3 high level spells prepared is somehow better than 6; just being from another list doesn't cut it.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. That's a different topic. Both have good and bad things compared to the other. But you make it sound like the 2014 is objectively better, and the improvements of the 2024 one are minimal, and that's simply not true. Being able to get WAY more spells from other lists and getting them earlier is a really big benefit.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
I'm not gonna reply to each point because this is getting ridiculous. And also, discussing with someone who uses arguments as "MY bard didn't touch another list until level 17" is getting in the realm of "I like the bard list, therefore having access to other lists isn't a big deal". We could argue pointlessly if we both do what you're doing, and I replied "The spells I used the most often, by far, were the ones of other lists." Pointless argument, so I'll ignore it.
It's a build example that demonstrates my point. This response does not demonstrate your point, but I'd be happy to go into more detail or you can show a build that demonstrates your point.
It's fine if you like the bard list so much that you don't want other spells, but saying that nothing is a big deal until Wish is simply not true. Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Clone, Maze, Heal, Holy Aura, Conjure Minor Elementals, and others, they're all very powerful spells. If your bard decided they didn't like it, fine, but that's a very weak argument against these spells. The 2014 bard could only get 6 of them, and most of them at later levels.
It's not that they are weak spells or that they aren't liked. It's that other spells also have priority. It's that they are all spells that can already be covered by wish and once that's in place there aren't enough levels left to switch many of them back.
The 2014 version allowed for taking those as well but I can also take force cage, teleport, scrying, power word stun, foresight, animate objects, and mass suggestion. Those are powerful and useful spells too. You're ignoring the opportunity cost inherent to the selection process.
Your argument is one of "quantity > quality", which I think is very questionable when it comes to spells. Nobody says bards don't get good spells, of course they do. But saying that their list is good enough to basically ignore all these spells and all others from these lists is ridiculous. "Bards can finds spells they want." Of course, every class does. You look at your list, see which ones are good enough for you, and then pick them. That doesn't mean the list is just as good as the other lists. It simply means that the list has spells that you'd like to cast. If your bard could learn spells from every list since level one, would you strictly stick to the bard list anyway? Apparently, yes, but you'd be a tiny minority, and for good reason.
Your argument of quality is an unproven statement. Quality exists inside and outside of the bard list. It's not like anyone says suggestion or hypnotic pattern are bad spells.
I would love to open up every list from level 1 because there are other spells I would also want. But that isn't how either version works. There still has to be a spell to give up and a spell to take, and it has to take a priority over other spells, and it has to be done at the rate allowance at those levels.
But yeah, this has all come down to "I don't think the spells of those 3 lists are good enough to make me want to pick spells other than the ones in the bard list, except for Wish." Which is your opinion, and you can play your bard however you want. But saying that the power and usefulness of the bard list is basically the same as the wizard, cleric, and druid combined is something very few people will agree with.
Those lists are irrelevant. We don't pick the lists, we pick spells from those lists and those spells are of a very limited quantity regardless. Bards have to pick and choose which ones at which times and that delay in adding high level spells is very impacting because of it.
Saying "my bard didn't touch another list until 17th level" is not a build, and it demonstrates nothing. It's a personal experience, that's it. Like I said before, I could say "My bard used spells from other lists almost exclusively". It would be the exact same kind of argument, also completely useless, but apparently to you that counts as a build that demonstrates something.
You say "It's that they are all spells that can already be covered by wish". This is a terrible argument, and I'm starting to see why you think the way you think. Not picking spells like Wall of Force or all the others I listed because you can use Wish to cast them is absurd. Wish is a 9th level spell, you only get one slot per long rest. The great thing about knowing all those powerful spells is that you don't have to waste your one Wish to replicate a 5th level spell. I could use the same argument, then. This great variety of spells that the 2014 has isn't relevant because I can just replicate them all with Wish.
At the end of the day, again, this is a matter of "are the spells of those lists good enough to make up for the extra spells known?" You say no, I say yes. There's no proof of either. You gave a weird proof that only said "this number of spells in 2014 vs this number of spells in 2024". That means nothing for this discussion. We both agree on the number of spells known, it's about the quality of those spells.
At this point it's pointless to keep discussing because a) You use personal anecdotes as "demonstration", b) You actually used the Wish argument I said before, which means you don't really understand what makes a spell good or not, c) this isn't even the topic of the thread.
I don't care about what you think, it's like talking to a wall. Feel free to keep arguing here with other people, or on your own, but I'm not reading this thread anymore. So don't bother replying to this post. Or do, I won't even know.
What he's saying is that the 2014 bard had better access to more spells. He's not wrong. Objectively, the bard has less access to magic than it had before.
What's being left unsaid that the 2014 bard was overtuned, and needed to be brought down. That's precisely what WotC did. I have no sympathy for bards being reigned in. Bards are still an excellent class, and one of the best classes in the game. I played one before, and I will play one again, because they are still amazing.
I think they were tuned up in this regard. There were a couple gimmicks they could do by taking a paladin spell but overall they are better off with a lot more spells from all the main lists. 19 spells with wiz/cleric/druid/bard versatility by 20 outweighs a paladin spell gimmick by far imo. so the loss of "less access" in the sense they no longer can pull form paladin, ranger, sorcerer, warlock, artificer lists i much more than made up for a huge increase in access by the number of off lists spells they can learn. I think just pure spell casting wise ignoring all other features they surpass wizards by level 15 or so. And they were never far behind them in just spell casting.
That bolded part is still inaccurate. They learn up to 8 spells from the the bard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer list. They used to learn 10 spells from all the lists. Just those 4 lists is still definitely good enough but her is a chart to maybe make what I'm saying more clear.
Level
2014
2024
2014 Secrets
2024 Secrets
2014+Bard
2024+Bard
1
4
4
2
5
5
3
6
6
4
7
7
5
8
9
6
9
10
7
10
11
8
11
12
9
12
14
10
14
15
2
1
2
1
11
15
16
2
2
3
2
12
15
16
2
2
3
2
13
16
17
2
3
4
3
14
18
17
4
3
6
3
15
19
18
4
4
7
4
16
19
18
4
4
7
4
17
20
19
4
5
8
5
18
22
20
6
6
10
6
19
22
21
6
7
10
7
20
22
22
6
8
10
8
The year columns are just the spells known vs prepped. The next two columns show the magical secrets as they are gained. The final two columns combine the magical secrets gained with the class spells gained, which in the 2024 version this will be exactly the same as the magical secrets progression.
Because of the way 2014 magical secrets were structured outside of the class spells they added spells known relatively fast while moving into those high level spell slots. This is specifically because the 2014 system added bard spells known and magical secrets from other classes while the 2024 system only adds them inclusive of each other. Knowing three more high level spells with the 2014 version is better than knowing three less with the 2024 version.
It's true that the 2024 version can add more by swapping lower level spells for higher level spells, but the 2014 bard can also do that albeit limited to the bard spell list. Where this falls apart is there are only so many spells known to swap in the first place, and almost every bard spell is already on the cleric, druid, and wizard list already. The idea of swapping in many requires giving up spells already taken as I mentioned but it also leaves the character with limited spell selection in the bulk of their spell slots with lots of spells where they have very few slots. It makes no sense to do that because it will drastically cut into the versatility of the class by limiting the options of the bulk of the spell slots.
The character can only upgrade so many spells while the 2014 can still upgrade spells but has more high level spells added faster as demonstrated.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
Nah 2024 is objectively better and not by a small margin, the advantages far outweigh the negatives.
You can make statements and spout platitudes all you want. I just gave you quantifiable information that backs up what I'm saying. Show me your builds that prove your point or at least start with some of these spells that demonstrated it.
You being objectively wrong is not my problem. You chart is vastly misleading. A 2014 (non lore)bard caps at 6 magical secrets, a 2024 bard caps at 19. You not understanding that a lot of spells are more powerful than bard spells is not my problem. You gave misleading information not quantifiable information. And people have already pointed out spells. Wall of force, simulacrum, reverse gravity, heal etv. I'm not here to hold your hand and read spell lists for you. But access to the main 3 is a massive advantage. The wizards spell list is why the wizard was considered the most powerful class in 2014, they don't have class abilities that shine, its entirely from their spell list. Just getting full access to that is huge, then being able to toss in a few great picks from cleric and druid is just insane.
edit to add while the bard list is good there are big holes in it, like summoning spells for example. And then spells that work better for the bard than the class that got it like Anti Magic field, a wizard is basically just doing that, they have nothing outside of magic, bard is more effective without magic. Look at like spell level 5, bards don;t have a single page of spells, wizards have over 3 pages. If you can't fund some useful spells even niche ones out of that many pages I don't know what ot say. Sure wish works great for something like demiplane where you cast it once and are pretty much done with the spell. But there are a lot of spells that when you need them you need them now, and usually that comes up more than once a day.
If you're looking for something else to nitpick over then the changes to magical secrets reduced the number of option choices available instead of increasing them. Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists. Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists. That's still plenty, tbh, and works, but it was still a net loss in options available.
How did they get 10 spells before? Weren't they 6, or 8 for the Lore bard?
And how do they get 8 now? They can get 2 more at level 10 and every time they level up after that.
Bards used to gain a combination of 10 spells that could be from artificer, bard, cleric, druid, paladin, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard lists.
This is 6 spells from any list and 4 spells from the bard list. This is important because bards actually have good spells too and don't become obsolete just because more options are available. ;-)
Now they add 8 spells that can be from the bard, cleric, druid, or wizard lists.
This is a change to magical secrets AND the class spell progression. So instead of learning 2 spells with magical secrets at 10 level and 1 bard spell at 11th level the bard learns 1 spell at 10th level under magical secrets and another at 11th level; but they have 1 more prepared spell outside of that from the bard list so they haven't gained anything. They've only lost access to several spell lists at that point and were slightly down at 10th level on access to other lists at all.
At 13th level the bard adds another spell with from those lists and again at 15th level. But the 2014 bard added both at 14th level with secrets and also added spells from the bard list. So a 14th level 2024 bard and a 2014 15th level bard have both only added 4 spells with access to secrets. The 2014 bard has also added some bard spells, however.
At 17th and 19th level the 2024 bard adds 2 more magical secrets but the 2014 adds 2 more magical secrets at level 18 plus another bard spell at level 17.
The advantage on the 2014 bard is they can grab a 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell from another list one level earlier, but they haven't gained any actual extra spells known at that point and actually lost those bard spells known in the process as well as access to more lists. It's not until levels 19 and 20 that the 2024 bard has added more spells as magical secrets (8) but they lost adding 2 high level spells known in the process (8 instead of 10).
Gaining access to wish at 17th level and adding from other lists at those two levels means there isn't any significant benefit from the new secrets until tier 4. Any bard spell taken now means magical secrets did nothing. Using magical secrets as the main list instead of a bonus the way the old bard progression did limits the number of high level spells more. The option to trade bard spells known during level up exists but we have to assume the spells taken already were desirable spell too so trading them off is sidegrading with little benefit.
Overall, the 2014 version of magical secrets gave better access to high level spells and the impact was felt earlier because of more high level spells known at the time. Does that help clarify? :-)
I think you're underestimating the spell lists of wizards, clerics, and druids. Yes, bards get a nice list, but it's not THAT good.
When I planned out my nightmare bard based on Alice Cooper I didn't even touch another list until 17th level. Everything I was taking through the leveling process was already on the bard list or the bard spell prep mechanic was preventing me from taking more spells anyway.
The only really spectacular thing about magical secrets is it gives access to wish. Other than that one 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell is generally similar in power to another 6th or 7th or 8th or 9th level spell. There's no doubt that a bard has a lot to choose from, but there's still only so many they get to actually choose. ;-)
The 2014 bard could only get 6 spells from other lists total, the 2024 can get way more than that.
That's where you're moving into "that's not accurate" territory.
The 2014 bard gained access to 6 spells through secrets and 4 (also good) bard spells for 10 high level spells. The 2024 bard has to select the bard spells they want from among the 8 spells they get instead of 10, and those last 2 don't come until 19th and 20th level. A class trait that doesn't really give an advantage until 19th level doesn't come online soon enough to call it an improvement when the magical secrets structure from 2014 within the class progression gave more sooner.
We can get more but we're still giving up spells to do it and we could already do the from the (also good) bard list.
Getting back to my Alice Cooper inspired bard, I did want dark vision but couldn't fit it in until 19th level because the limited spell selection was full of spells I still wanted and needed for the concept.
Saying that a spell that you picked before was desirable, and therefore trading it off is "sidegrading with little benefit" is completely wrong.
It's absolutely not wrong. Bards only prep so many spells and it's not hard to find spells we want. Just because more options become available doesn't mean the options we already had became less desirable.
It is very possible that the reason you chose that spell is because you didn't have anything better on your list. Well, now you do, so now that spell isn't so desirable anymore.
That's some massive conjecture going on there. ;-)
Are you trying to convince me the bard spells are full of junk but bards have this powerful ability because they don't use their own spell list? And WotC doesn't give them spells they want or need until 10th level when they suddenly have more options? Bards are OP because their spells aren't as good as other classes? Bards are OP because they have the ability to not take as many spells from another class than that class can take on it's own?
Where's the logic there? It looks like you're saying magical secrets is so good because bard spells aren't worth comparing to another class. ;-)
And maybe some spells were good back then, but not as good anymore at higher levels.
Lotta maybe going on. Maybe those spells are still desirable? Maybe?
So trading them off is also a big benefit.
Which spells are you talking about that give this big benefit?
There's a reason why other casters can also replace their spells. Sometimes they're good when you learn them, but not so much later. The cleric, druid, and particularly wizard lists have really powerful and useful spells. Replacing bard spells with those is far from "sidegrading with little benefit".
Bards can replace their spells as they level too for the reason you just gave. The 2014 version of sleep outlived it's usefulness and was often replaced. Magical secrets isn't needed for that.
Those powerful spells are already graded by an estimated power level in the spell levels. Bards have up to 9th level spells just like clerics, druids, and wizards. Those other classes have powerful spells that a bard might want, but they aren't more powerful in general than what a bard has. What they might do is serve a function not available or fit a design concept.
The only thing I do by adding fireball and giving up suggestion is add one spell that does damage and lose one spell that useful in other ways.
You're also underestimating how good it is to get spells earlier. It's actually really good.
That's why it's an overall nerf in 2024. The 2024 magical secrets doesn't grant higher level spells earlier. Bards already got higher level spells at the same levels as other casters. It only grants limited access to other lists earlier. But the 2014 magical secrets granted more spells prepared sooner, which is where your own argument comes in.
Having a powerful spell a whole level earlier can have a big impact in a campaign. Not to mention that not all of them are one level earlier. 7th and 9th are, but 8th is 3 levels earlier. That's not a small thing. Same with 6th level spells, they come 3 levels earlier.
Nope. Bards already have worthwhile 6th level spells to take at 11th level. It's in their own list. But at 10th level they only get 1 spell instead of 2 now. That's a loss.that carries forward. The difference between 10th level thru 14th level is 6 spells known (4 secrets) in the 2014 version and 3 spells known in the 2024 version.
We can't argue that 3 high level spells prepared is somehow better than 6; just being from another list doesn't cut it.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. That's a different topic. Both have good and bad things compared to the other. But you make it sound like the 2014 is objectively better, and the improvements of the 2024 one are minimal, and that's simply not true. Being able to get WAY more spells from other lists and getting them earlier is a really big benefit.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
I'm not gonna reply to each point because this is getting ridiculous. And also, discussing with someone who uses arguments as "MY bard didn't touch another list until level 17" is getting in the realm of "I like the bard list, therefore having access to other lists isn't a big deal". We could argue pointlessly if we both do what you're doing, and I replied "The spells I used the most often, by far, were the ones of other lists." Pointless argument, so I'll ignore it.
It's a build example that demonstrates my point. This response does not demonstrate your point, but I'd be happy to go into more detail or you can show a build that demonstrates your point.
It's fine if you like the bard list so much that you don't want other spells, but saying that nothing is a big deal until Wish is simply not true. Wall of Force, Reverse Gravity, Simulacrum, Clone, Maze, Heal, Holy Aura, Conjure Minor Elementals, and others, they're all very powerful spells. If your bard decided they didn't like it, fine, but that's a very weak argument against these spells. The 2014 bard could only get 6 of them, and most of them at later levels.
It's not that they are weak spells or that they aren't liked. It's that other spells also have priority. It's that they are all spells that can already be covered by wish and once that's in place there aren't enough levels left to switch many of them back.
The 2014 version allowed for taking those as well but I can also take force cage, teleport, scrying, power word stun, foresight, animate objects, and mass suggestion. Those are powerful and useful spells too. You're ignoring the opportunity cost inherent to the selection process.
Your argument is one of "quantity > quality", which I think is very questionable when it comes to spells. Nobody says bards don't get good spells, of course they do. But saying that their list is good enough to basically ignore all these spells and all others from these lists is ridiculous. "Bards can finds spells they want." Of course, every class does. You look at your list, see which ones are good enough for you, and then pick them. That doesn't mean the list is just as good as the other lists. It simply means that the list has spells that you'd like to cast. If your bard could learn spells from every list since level one, would you strictly stick to the bard list anyway? Apparently, yes, but you'd be a tiny minority, and for good reason.
Your argument of quality is an unproven statement. Quality exists inside and outside of the bard list. It's not like anyone says suggestion or hypnotic pattern are bad spells.
I would love to open up every list from level 1 because there are other spells I would also want. But that isn't how either version works. There still has to be a spell to give up and a spell to take, and it has to take a priority over other spells, and it has to be done at the rate allowance at those levels.
But yeah, this has all come down to "I don't think the spells of those 3 lists are good enough to make me want to pick spells other than the ones in the bard list, except for Wish." Which is your opinion, and you can play your bard however you want. But saying that the power and usefulness of the bard list is basically the same as the wizard, cleric, and druid combined is something very few people will agree with.
Those lists are irrelevant. We don't pick the lists, we pick spells from those lists and those spells are of a very limited quantity regardless. Bards have to pick and choose which ones at which times and that delay in adding high level spells is very impacting because of it.
Saying "my bard didn't touch another list until 17th level" is not a build, and it demonstrates nothing. It's a personal experience, that's it. Like I said before, I could say "My bard used spells from other lists almost exclusively". It would be the exact same kind of argument, also completely useless, but apparently to you that counts as a build that demonstrates something.
You didn't even ask for more information on the build. I would have been happy to show it to you. You're counter is to try to invalidate my game play experience as somehow irrelevant instead of demonstrating your own argument.
You say "It's that they are all spells that can already be covered by wish". This is a terrible argument, and I'm starting to see why you think the way you think.
I explained why I save some of those spells for wish. There aren't enough levels to change them all back after gaining wish and there are other desirable spells of those spell levels that aren't just come white room "this spell is overpowered" arguments. What's ironic is the saying "cleric, druid, wizard lists" and then only showing the typical wizard spells argued as OP. ;-P
Not picking spells like Wall of Force or all the others I listed because you can use Wish to cast them is absurd.
I don't use wish for wall of force. You might want to ask yourself why you would jump to that conclusion. It looks like you're making an appeal to absurdity by willfully interpreting what I said in ways where you didn't clarify that I meant. ;-)
I can use it for clone or simulacrum or any spell I might feel I need but it's usually for those downtime shenanigans you seem to be pointing at. I can use force cage instead of wall of force. Wall of force is a 5th level spell useful mainly for combat. There are a lot of useful 5th level spells as alternatives. Raise dead or greater restoration or scrying might come in handy. It's one of the most crowded spell levels for bards to select spells.
Wish is a 9th level spell, you only get one slot per long rest. The great thing about knowing all those powerful spells is that you don't have to waste your one Wish to replicate a 5th level spell.
Yes, which makes better sense when using it instead of an 8th level spell prepped like clone. The 2024 rules do make it easier to add clone and drop it for wish, but that still leaves something else not taken. Clone or simulacrum isn't exactly an answer to everything either. There are always opportunity costs in selecting spells for a bard regardless of how many choices from which to select those spells.
I could use the same argument, then. This great variety of spells that the 2014 has isn't relevant because I can just replicate them all with Wish.
You could, but you're still appealing to absurdity. A person has to get to the wish spell first and we both acknowledge that it's that limited 9th level slot. My use of wish tends towards downtime shenanigans. The problem with your argument is it's all limited by those high level spell slots when we start taking away from the low level spells prepared to add more high level spells.
At the end of the day, again, this is a matter of "are the spells of those lists good enough to make up for the extra spells known?" You say no, I say yes.
It's not "lists". It's mostly just wizard spell ****. It's easier to just make a wizard.
There's no proof of either. You gave a weird proof that only said "this number of spells in 2014 vs this number of spells in 2024". That means nothing for this discussion. We both agree on the number of spells known, it's about the quality of those spells.
At which point you should be proving the quality of those spells. There's no denying that the 2014 magical secrets added to the high level spells known earlier and faster than the 2024 version without sacrificing the lower level spells known. You also seem to be making the claim that there are spells on another list that are more powerful than the bard spells on the bard list because they are on another list, which also falls into some very basic logical fallacy.
8 without any bard spells is less than 6 plus 4 bard spells of the same levels of spells. Plus faster and earlier.
At this point it's pointless to keep discussing because a) You use personal anecdotes as "demonstration", b) You actually used the Wish argument I said before, which means you don't really understand what makes a spell good or not, c) this isn't even the topic of the thread.
You were never obligated to answer me. You have your opinion and you are either open to listening or are not. You not changing your opinion is irrelevant to other people who read both arguments and make their own minds up about the topic. ;-)
I don't care about what you think, it's like talking to a wall. Feel free to keep arguing here with other people, or on your own, but I'm not reading this thread anymore. So don't bother replying to this post. Or do, I won't even know.
Seems kind of pedantic to a discussion. But that's still your choice. If you don't want to continue discussing this I'm okay with that.
What he's saying is that the 2014 bard had better access to more spells. He's not wrong. Objectively, the bard has less access to magic than it had before.
What's being left unsaid that the 2014 bard was overtuned, and needed to be brought down. That's precisely what WotC did. I have no sympathy for bards being reigned in. Bards are still an excellent class, and one of the best classes in the game. I played one before, and I will play one again, because they are still amazing.
I think they were tuned up in this regard. There were a couple gimmicks they could do by taking a paladin spell but overall they are better off with a lot more spells from all the main lists. 19 spells with wiz/cleric/druid/bard versatility by 20 outweighs a paladin spell gimmick by far imo. so the loss of "less access" in the sense they no longer can pull form paladin, ranger, sorcerer, warlock, artificer lists i much more than made up for a huge increase in access by the number of off lists spells they can learn. I think just pure spell casting wise ignoring all other features they surpass wizards by level 15 or so. And they were never far behind them in just spell casting.
That bolded part is still inaccurate. They learn up to 8 spells from the the bard, cleric, druid, and sorcerer list. They used to learn 10 spells from all the lists. Just those 4 lists is still definitely good enough but her is a chart to maybe make what I'm saying more clear.
Level
2014
2024
2014 Secrets
2024 Secrets
2014+Bard
2024+Bard
1
4
4
2
5
5
3
6
6
4
7
7
5
8
9
6
9
10
7
10
11
8
11
12
9
12
14
10
14
15
2
1
2
1
11
15
16
2
2
3
2
12
15
16
2
2
3
2
13
16
17
2
3
4
3
14
18
17
4
3
6
3
15
19
18
4
4
7
4
16
19
18
4
4
7
4
17
20
19
4
5
8
5
18
22
20
6
6
10
6
19
22
21
6
7
10
7
20
22
22
6
8
10
8
The year columns are just the spells known vs prepped. The next two columns show the magical secrets as they are gained. The final two columns combine the magical secrets gained with the class spells gained, which in the 2024 version this will be exactly the same as the magical secrets progression.
Because of the way 2014 magical secrets were structured outside of the class spells they added spells known relatively fast while moving into those high level spell slots. This is specifically because the 2014 system added bard spells known and magical secrets from other classes while the 2024 system only adds them inclusive of each other. Knowing three more high level spells with the 2014 version is better than knowing three less with the 2024 version.
It's true that the 2024 version can add more by swapping lower level spells for higher level spells, but the 2014 bard can also do that albeit limited to the bard spell list. Where this falls apart is there are only so many spells known to swap in the first place, and almost every bard spell is already on the cleric, druid, and wizard list already. The idea of swapping in many requires giving up spells already taken as I mentioned but it also leaves the character with limited spell selection in the bulk of their spell slots with lots of spells where they have very few slots. It makes no sense to do that because it will drastically cut into the versatility of the class by limiting the options of the bulk of the spell slots.
The character can only upgrade so many spells while the 2014 can still upgrade spells but has more high level spells added faster as demonstrated.
The 2014 version is objectively better. That doesn't mean there aren't some advantages in the 2024 version. They just don't outweigh the negatives. ;-)
Nah 2024 is objectively better and not by a small margin, the advantages far outweigh the negatives.
You can make statements and spout platitudes all you want. I just gave you quantifiable information that backs up what I'm saying. Show me your builds that prove your point or at least start with some of these spells that demonstrated it.
You being objectively wrong is not my problem. You chart is vastly misleading. A 2014 (non lore)bard caps at 6 magical secrets, a 2024 bard caps at 19. You not understanding that a lot of spells are more powerful than bard spells is not my problem. You gave misleading information not quantifiable information. And people have already pointed out spells. Wall of force, simulacrum, reverse gravity, heal etv. I'm not here to hold your hand and read spell lists for you. But access to the main 3 is a massive advantage. The wizards spell list is why the wizard was considered the most powerful class in 2014, they don't have class abilities that shine, its entirely from their spell list. Just getting full access to that is huge, then being able to toss in a few great picks from cleric and druid is just insane.
That looks like classic white room discussion while disregarding the effects of those choices. Taking 11 spells prepared from the 14 spells prepared leaves 3 from the original selection.
Do you really think there are only 3 low level bard spells from levels 1 thru 5 the bard should be keeping? That's just silly.
edit to add while the bard list is good there are big holes in it, like summoning spells for example. And then spells that work better for the bard than the class that got it like Anti Magic field, a wizard is basically just doing that, they have nothing outside of magic, bard is more effective without magic. Look at like spell level 5, bards don;t have a single page of spells, wizards have over 3 pages. If you can't fund some useful spells even niche ones out of that many pages I don't know what ot say. Sure wish works great for something like demiplane where you cast it once and are pretty much done with the spell. But there are a lot of spells that when you need them you need them now, and usually that comes up more than once a day.
It still doesn't matter how long the list from which to select is. The 2014 bard at 10th level got to select 2 of them and the 2024 bard gets to select one of them. It's not that there aren't useful spells on those lists. There definitely are. It's the bard spells wizards don't get worth keeping creates a draw to the class. Outside of that it's just some skill bonuses and bardic inspiration.
If I wanted to play with all the wizard spells I'd probably make a wizard because they're much better at it. ;-)
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It's a build example that demonstrates my point. This response does not demonstrate your point, but I'd be happy to go into more detail or you can show a build that demonstrates your point.
It's not that they are weak spells or that they aren't liked. It's that other spells also have priority. It's that they are all spells that can already be covered by wish and once that's in place there aren't enough levels left to switch many of them back.
The 2014 version allowed for taking those as well but I can also take force cage, teleport, scrying, power word stun, foresight, animate objects, and mass suggestion. Those are powerful and useful spells too. You're ignoring the opportunity cost inherent to the selection process.
Your argument of quality is an unproven statement. Quality exists inside and outside of the bard list. It's not like anyone says suggestion or hypnotic pattern are bad spells.
I would love to open up every list from level 1 because there are other spells I would also want. But that isn't how either version works. There still has to be a spell to give up and a spell to take, and it has to take a priority over other spells, and it has to be done at the rate allowance at those levels.
Those lists are irrelevant. We don't pick the lists, we pick spells from those lists and those spells are of a very limited quantity regardless. Bards have to pick and choose which ones at which times and that delay in adding high level spells is very impacting because of it.
Saying "my bard didn't touch another list until 17th level" is not a build, and it demonstrates nothing. It's a personal experience, that's it. Like I said before, I could say "My bard used spells from other lists almost exclusively". It would be the exact same kind of argument, also completely useless, but apparently to you that counts as a build that demonstrates something.
You say "It's that they are all spells that can already be covered by wish". This is a terrible argument, and I'm starting to see why you think the way you think. Not picking spells like Wall of Force or all the others I listed because you can use Wish to cast them is absurd. Wish is a 9th level spell, you only get one slot per long rest. The great thing about knowing all those powerful spells is that you don't have to waste your one Wish to replicate a 5th level spell. I could use the same argument, then. This great variety of spells that the 2014 has isn't relevant because I can just replicate them all with Wish.
At the end of the day, again, this is a matter of "are the spells of those lists good enough to make up for the extra spells known?" You say no, I say yes. There's no proof of either. You gave a weird proof that only said "this number of spells in 2014 vs this number of spells in 2024". That means nothing for this discussion. We both agree on the number of spells known, it's about the quality of those spells.
At this point it's pointless to keep discussing because a) You use personal anecdotes as "demonstration", b) You actually used the Wish argument I said before, which means you don't really understand what makes a spell good or not, c) this isn't even the topic of the thread.
I don't care about what you think, it's like talking to a wall. Feel free to keep arguing here with other people, or on your own, but I'm not reading this thread anymore. So don't bother replying to this post. Or do, I won't even know.
You being objectively wrong is not my problem. You chart is vastly misleading. A 2014 (non lore)bard caps at 6 magical secrets, a 2024 bard caps at 19. You not understanding that a lot of spells are more powerful than bard spells is not my problem. You gave misleading information not quantifiable information. And people have already pointed out spells. Wall of force, simulacrum, reverse gravity, heal etv. I'm not here to hold your hand and read spell lists for you. But access to the main 3 is a massive advantage. The wizards spell list is why the wizard was considered the most powerful class in 2014, they don't have class abilities that shine, its entirely from their spell list. Just getting full access to that is huge, then being able to toss in a few great picks from cleric and druid is just insane.
edit to add while the bard list is good there are big holes in it, like summoning spells for example. And then spells that work better for the bard than the class that got it like Anti Magic field, a wizard is basically just doing that, they have nothing outside of magic, bard is more effective without magic. Look at like spell level 5, bards don;t have a single page of spells, wizards have over 3 pages. If you can't fund some useful spells even niche ones out of that many pages I don't know what ot say. Sure wish works great for something like demiplane where you cast it once and are pretty much done with the spell. But there are a lot of spells that when you need them you need them now, and usually that comes up more than once a day.
You didn't even ask for more information on the build. I would have been happy to show it to you. You're counter is to try to invalidate my game play experience as somehow irrelevant instead of demonstrating your own argument.
I explained why I save some of those spells for wish. There aren't enough levels to change them all back after gaining wish and there are other desirable spells of those spell levels that aren't just come white room "this spell is overpowered" arguments. What's ironic is the saying "cleric, druid, wizard lists" and then only showing the typical wizard spells argued as OP. ;-P
I don't use wish for wall of force. You might want to ask yourself why you would jump to that conclusion. It looks like you're making an appeal to absurdity by willfully interpreting what I said in ways where you didn't clarify that I meant. ;-)
I can use it for clone or simulacrum or any spell I might feel I need but it's usually for those downtime shenanigans you seem to be pointing at. I can use force cage instead of wall of force. Wall of force is a 5th level spell useful mainly for combat. There are a lot of useful 5th level spells as alternatives. Raise dead or greater restoration or scrying might come in handy. It's one of the most crowded spell levels for bards to select spells.
Yes, which makes better sense when using it instead of an 8th level spell prepped like clone. The 2024 rules do make it easier to add clone and drop it for wish, but that still leaves something else not taken. Clone or simulacrum isn't exactly an answer to everything either. There are always opportunity costs in selecting spells for a bard regardless of how many choices from which to select those spells.
You could, but you're still appealing to absurdity. A person has to get to the wish spell first and we both acknowledge that it's that limited 9th level slot. My use of wish tends towards downtime shenanigans. The problem with your argument is it's all limited by those high level spell slots when we start taking away from the low level spells prepared to add more high level spells.
It's not "lists". It's mostly just wizard spell ****. It's easier to just make a wizard.
At which point you should be proving the quality of those spells. There's no denying that the 2014 magical secrets added to the high level spells known earlier and faster than the 2024 version without sacrificing the lower level spells known. You also seem to be making the claim that there are spells on another list that are more powerful than the bard spells on the bard list because they are on another list, which also falls into some very basic logical fallacy.
8 without any bard spells is less than 6 plus 4 bard spells of the same levels of spells. Plus faster and earlier.
You were never obligated to answer me. You have your opinion and you are either open to listening or are not. You not changing your opinion is irrelevant to other people who read both arguments and make their own minds up about the topic. ;-)
Seems kind of pedantic to a discussion. But that's still your choice. If you don't want to continue discussing this I'm okay with that.
That looks like classic white room discussion while disregarding the effects of those choices. Taking 11 spells prepared from the 14 spells prepared leaves 3 from the original selection.
Do you really think there are only 3 low level bard spells from levels 1 thru 5 the bard should be keeping? That's just silly.
It still doesn't matter how long the list from which to select is. The 2014 bard at 10th level got to select 2 of them and the 2024 bard gets to select one of them. It's not that there aren't useful spells on those lists. There definitely are. It's the bard spells wizards don't get worth keeping creates a draw to the class. Outside of that it's just some skill bonuses and bardic inspiration.
If I wanted to play with all the wizard spells I'd probably make a wizard because they're much better at it. ;-)