I want to know if any RAW prevent the kind of play I'm looking to do with my Roguish Trickery Cleric. I know these things are up to DM discretion, but I also plan to play it in Adventurer's League so I'd like to know where the lines are.
Getting into melee range with my illusion, I figure the enemy has a 50/50 chance to strike the correct one. I've read that many DMs will even do some kind of roll to see if they understand what's happening the first time they whiff. All good. My question comes in when they do discover which is the real you: what's to stop me from using my bonus action to move the image into my space, aligning with it, and then stepping out again to "reset" the enemy's perception of which is which? Again, I know this will mostly be down to the DM, but does this at least work RAW?
The rules don't explicitly state any mechanics that I can tell for how an enemy determines which version is real or even that they have to at all, the way Mirror Image does. RAW, I suppose a DM could even say that they always know and always strike the correct version. Do I understand that correctly? Othwerwise, it kind of seems like a supercharged version of Mirror Image (one that even allows you to swap with it for even more trickery at level 6).
Am I trying to get too fancy with this, or does that all seem above-board?
Invoke duplicity has a lot of uses even if the enemies are not trying to attack it. The ability to switch places with it has many applications, and can make for some great utility for solving problems. the ability to deliver touch spells without having to get close to the enemies should not be undersold either. Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, and Revivify can now be cast from a safe distance, instead of having to get up next to your debilitated frontliner.
I actually think it is the strongest Cleric subclass in the 2024 PHB.
@Jurmonder: If we're going that route, I'd say that trying to actually hit me with the pebble requires an attack roll. Otherwise who's to say I didn't dodge it? The image matches my gestures, therefore if the attack roll misses, both I and my image would appear to have dodged it, whichever it is.
This is the primary way I intend to play it. I'll be sitting back with a True Strike shortbow and 1 level of Rogue for Sneak Attack, using Invoke Duplicity to heal or cast cantrips like Thunderwave (I took Magic Initiate). But when push comes to shove, I also have a rapier, and there's definitely some fun to be had with this fighting up close and personal.
So aside from that, I found some relevant rules text that could apply here:
Unseen Attackers and Targets p26
When you make an attack roll against a target you can't see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you miss.
Emphasis mine. So in the case of Invoke Duplicity, rather than making a guess or flipping a coin, they would just attack with Disadvantage? Or would the attacker indeed have to make a guess, per the last sentence? While I know that this should be in the ability's text if it were to give such a defensive boon, this general rule would seem to apply. And if so, the trick of using my Bonus Action to merge with it and then re-separate should reset enemies' knowledge of my location?
This is the primary way I intend to play it. I'll be sitting back with a True Strike shortbow and 1 level of Rogue for Sneak Attack, using Invoke Duplicity to heal or cast cantrips like Thunderwave (I took Magic Initiate). But when push comes to shove, I also have a rapier, and there's definitely some fun to be had with this fighting up close and personal.
So aside from that, I found some relevant rules text that could apply here:
Unseen Attackers and Targets p26
When you make an attack roll against a target you can't see, you have Disadvantage on the roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you miss.
Emphasis mine. So in the case of Invoke Duplicity, rather than making a guess or flipping a coin, they would just attack with Disadvantage? Or would the attacker indeed have to make a guess, per the last sentence? While I know that this should be in the ability's text if it were to give such a defensive boon, this general rule would seem to apply. And if so, the trick of using my Bonus Action to merge with it and then re-separate should reset enemies' knowledge of my location?
That is referring to when you can't see the target and would not apply here, as you can see the target, you just don't know if that is actually the one you want to hit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
@Jurmonder: If we're going that route, I'd say that trying to actually hit me with the pebble requires an attack roll. Otherwise who's to say I didn't dodge it? The image matches my gestures, therefore if the attack roll misses, both I and my image would appear to have dodged it, whichever it is.
It's fairly easy to cover your entire square with something physical. eg: toss some water out of a flask.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
I want to know if any RAW prevent the kind of play I'm looking to do with my Roguish Trickery Cleric. I know these things are up to DM discretion, but I also plan to play it in Adventurer's League so I'd like to know where the lines are.
Getting into melee range with my illusion, I figure the enemy has a 50/50 chance to strike the correct one. I've read that many DMs will even do some kind of roll to see if they understand what's happening the first time they whiff. All good. My question comes in when they do discover which is the real you: what's to stop me from using my bonus action to move the image into my space, aligning with it, and then stepping out again to "reset" the enemy's perception of which is which? Again, I know this will mostly be down to the DM, but does this at least work RAW?
The rules don't explicitly state any mechanics that I can tell for how an enemy determines which version is real or even that they have to at all, the way Mirror Image does. RAW, I suppose a DM could even say that they always know and always strike the correct version. Do I understand that correctly? Othwerwise, it kind of seems like a supercharged version of Mirror Image (one that even allows you to swap with it for even more trickery at level 6).
Am I trying to get too fancy with this, or does that all seem above-board?
It’s kind of a strange thing. It says the illusion is perfect. But at the same time, it doesn’t say anything about the enemy not knowing which is real and which is the illusion. (Looking at 24 version) For example, it says you have advantage on attacks when your illusion is adjacent. But it doesn’t say anything about there being any effect on the enemy’s attacks. One of the general principles of the game is: the rules don’t imply anything; if they don’t say they do something, they don’t do it. So the RAW conclusion to me is, the enemy will know which one is which and can attack you freely with no penalties, because there’s nothing in the description that says otherwise. The whole 50/50 chance and knowing what’s happening on a miss are all house rules. FWIW, they seem fairly reasonable, but still, definitely house rules and not RAW.
The benefits, by RAW, are limited to distraction when you make an attack, and casting from its location, and that’s about it. Until you level up, of course.
I want to know if any RAW prevent the kind of play I'm looking to do with my Roguish Trickery Cleric. I know these things are up to DM discretion, but I also plan to play it in Adventurer's League so I'd like to know where the lines are.
Getting into melee range with my illusion, I figure the enemy has a 50/50 chance to strike the correct one. I've read that many DMs will even do some kind of roll to see if they understand what's happening the first time they whiff. All good. My question comes in when they do discover which is the real you: what's to stop me from using my bonus action to move the image into my space, aligning with it, and then stepping out again to "reset" the enemy's perception of which is which? Again, I know this will mostly be down to the DM, but does this at least work RAW?
The rules don't explicitly state any mechanics that I can tell for how an enemy determines which version is real or even that they have to at all, the way Mirror Image does. RAW, I suppose a DM could even say that they always know and always strike the correct version. Do I understand that correctly? Othwerwise, it kind of seems like a supercharged version of Mirror Image (one that even allows you to swap with it for even more trickery at level 6).
Am I trying to get too fancy with this, or does that all seem above-board?
It’s kind of a strange thing. It says the illusion is perfect. But at the same time, it doesn’t say anything about the enemy not knowing which is real and which is the illusion. (Looking at 24 version) For example, it says you have advantage on attacks when your illusion is adjacent. But it doesn’t say anything about there being any effect on the enemy’s attacks. One of the general principles of the game is: the rules don’t imply anything; if they don’t say they do something, they don’t do it. So the RAW conclusion to me is, the enemy will know which one is which and can attack you freely with no penalties, because there’s nothing in the description that says otherwise. The whole 50/50 chance and knowing what’s happening on a miss are all house rules. FWIW, they seem fairly reasonable, but still, definitely house rules and not RAW.
The benefits, by RAW, are limited to distraction when you make an attack, and casting from its location, and that’s about it. Until you level up, of course.
Interesting, that definitely makes sense. It's certainly an odd one, because it goes out of its way to describe it as "perfect". I wanna pull this thread going purely on RAW (because I'm pretty sure a majority of DMs would improvise one thing or another for the ruse, and that's a whole different discussion).
RAW, since summoning the image is a bonus action I suppose one could take the Influence action to actively try and confuse them? Is the Influence action versatile enough for that to work RAW, or would it still need some explicit text from the ability in order for the enemy not to know which is which?
Free action toss a pebble at either you are the illusion. They now know which one is real.
That’s not a free action. That would be an improvised weapon attack.
Not if you're not trying to do damage.
Please point to the rule which says that.
Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. Any additional interactions require the Utilize action, as explained in “Combat” later in this chapter.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
Free action toss a pebble at either you are the illusion. They now know which one is real.
That’s not a free action. That would be an improvised weapon attack.
Not if you're not trying to do damage.
Please point to the rule which says that.
Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. Any additional interactions require the Utilize action, as explained in “Combat” later in this chapter.
That will let you pick up the rock. Not throw it at a target and guarantee a hit.
Free action toss a pebble at either you are the illusion. They now know which one is real.
That’s not a free action. That would be an improvised weapon attack.
Not if you're not trying to do damage.
Please point to the rule which says that.
Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. Any additional interactions require the Utilize action, as explained in “Combat” later in this chapter.
That will let you pick up the rock. Not throw it at a target and guarantee a hit.
I concede that would only let you throw the rock and not necessarily hit, but like I said, you could also use many other options like a bucket of water that can guaranteed hit the pc. Keep in mind that these would be tactics used by the DM, so they can really just say it will work.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
I want to know if any RAW prevent the kind of play I'm looking to do with my Roguish Trickery Cleric. I know these things are up to DM discretion, but I also plan to play it in Adventurer's League so I'd like to know where the lines are.
Getting into melee range with my illusion, I figure the enemy has a 50/50 chance to strike the correct one. I've read that many DMs will even do some kind of roll to see if they understand what's happening the first time they whiff. All good. My question comes in when they do discover which is the real you: what's to stop me from using my bonus action to move the image into my space, aligning with it, and then stepping out again to "reset" the enemy's perception of which is which? Again, I know this will mostly be down to the DM, but does this at least work RAW?
The rules don't explicitly state any mechanics that I can tell for how an enemy determines which version is real or even that they have to at all, the way Mirror Image does. RAW, I suppose a DM could even say that they always know and always strike the correct version. Do I understand that correctly? Othwerwise, it kind of seems like a supercharged version of Mirror Image (one that even allows you to swap with it for even more trickery at level 6).
Am I trying to get too fancy with this, or does that all seem above-board?
It’s kind of a strange thing. It says the illusion is perfect. But at the same time, it doesn’t say anything about the enemy not knowing which is real and which is the illusion. (Looking at 24 version) For example, it says you have advantage on attacks when your illusion is adjacent. But it doesn’t say anything about there being any effect on the enemy’s attacks. One of the general principles of the game is: the rules don’t imply anything; if they don’t say they do something, they don’t do it. So the RAW conclusion to me is, the enemy will know which one is which and can attack you freely with no penalties, because there’s nothing in the description that says otherwise. The whole 50/50 chance and knowing what’s happening on a miss are all house rules. FWIW, they seem fairly reasonable, but still, definitely house rules and not RAW.
The benefits, by RAW, are limited to distraction when you make an attack, and casting from its location, and that’s about it. Until you level up, of course.
Interesting, that definitely makes sense. It's certainly an odd one, because it goes out of its way to describe it as "perfect". I wanna pull this thread going purely on RAW (because I'm pretty sure a majority of DMs would improvise one thing or another for the ruse, and that's a whole different discussion).
RAW, since summoning the image is a bonus action I suppose one could take the Influence action to actively try and confuse them? Is the Influence action versatile enough for that to work RAW, or would it still need some explicit text from the ability in order for the enemy not to know which is which?
Well, that’s going to be a ruling. Influence can be used for deceiving a creature that understands you, which is what you’re trying to do. Though in combat, they would be hostile, so you’d have disadvantage on the check. But first, there’s going to need to be a ruling on whether the creature is “unwilling” or “hesitant” and mid-fight, I could see a hostile creature being unwilling by default, meaning the attempt would simply fail.
And it’s probably not the best use of your action to try and trick an enemy that’s probably only got 3-5 rounds to live anyway. But that’s a whole different discussion.
I want to know if any RAW prevent the kind of play I'm looking to do with my Roguish Trickery Cleric. I know these things are up to DM discretion, but I also plan to play it in Adventurer's League so I'd like to know where the lines are.
Getting into melee range with my illusion, I figure the enemy has a 50/50 chance to strike the correct one. I've read that many DMs will even do some kind of roll to see if they understand what's happening the first time they whiff. All good. My question comes in when they do discover which is the real you: what's to stop me from using my bonus action to move the image into my space, aligning with it, and then stepping out again to "reset" the enemy's perception of which is which? Again, I know this will mostly be down to the DM, but does this at least work RAW?
The rules don't explicitly state any mechanics that I can tell for how an enemy determines which version is real or even that they have to at all, the way Mirror Image does. RAW, I suppose a DM could even say that they always know and always strike the correct version. Do I understand that correctly? Othwerwise, it kind of seems like a supercharged version of Mirror Image (one that even allows you to swap with it for even more trickery at level 6).
Am I trying to get too fancy with this, or does that all seem above-board?
It’s kind of a strange thing. It says the illusion is perfect. But at the same time, it doesn’t say anything about the enemy not knowing which is real and which is the illusion. (Looking at 24 version) For example, it says you have advantage on attacks when your illusion is adjacent. But it doesn’t say anything about there being any effect on the enemy’s attacks. One of the general principles of the game is: the rules don’t imply anything; if they don’t say they do something, they don’t do it. So the RAW conclusion to me is, the enemy will know which one is which and can attack you freely with no penalties, because there’s nothing in the description that says otherwise. The whole 50/50 chance and knowing what’s happening on a miss are all house rules. FWIW, they seem fairly reasonable, but still, definitely house rules and not RAW.
The benefits, by RAW, are limited to distraction when you make an attack, and casting from its location, and that’s about it. Until you level up, of course.
Interesting, that definitely makes sense. It's certainly an odd one, because it goes out of its way to describe it as "perfect". I wanna pull this thread going purely on RAW (because I'm pretty sure a majority of DMs would improvise one thing or another for the ruse, and that's a whole different discussion).
RAW, since summoning the image is a bonus action I suppose one could take the Influence action to actively try and confuse them? Is the Influence action versatile enough for that to work RAW, or would it still need some explicit text from the ability in order for the enemy not to know which is which?
You can maybe argue that this would work, but you're never going to find a DM who would let it. (if they have carefully read the rules)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
Free action toss a pebble at either you are the illusion. They now know which one is real.
That’s not a free action. That would be an improvised weapon attack.
Not if you're not trying to do damage.
Please point to the rule which says that.
Time-Limited Object Interactions
When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. Any additional interactions require the Utilize action, as explained in “Combat” later in this chapter.
That will let you pick up the rock. Not throw it at a target and guarantee a hit.
I concede that would only let you throw the rock and not necessarily hit, but like I said, you could also use many other options like a bucket of water that can guaranteed hit the pc. Keep in mind that these would be tactics used by the DM, so they can really just say it will work.
A DM can say anything, but it would really be a jerk move to do that to a player just because they want to. Even with the water, there are no guarantees. If you are trying to do something to another creature, there’s a roll: attack, skill check, saving throw. You can’t just decide you want a thing to work. There’s people who can dodge a fireball centered on them. A water bucket is nothing.
I concede that would only let you throw the rock and not necessarily hit, but like I said, you could also use many other options like a bucket of water that can guaranteed hit the pc. Keep in mind that these would be tactics used by the DM, so they can really just say it will work.
A DM can say anything, but it would really be a jerk move to do that to a player just because they want to. Even with the water, there are no guarantees. If you are trying to do something to another creature, there’s a roll: attack, skill check, saving throw. You can’t just decide you want a thing to work. There’s people who can dodge a fireball centered on them. A water bucket is nothing.
To a player who is exploiting the rules? A DM does, in fact, have the power to just make a thing work. Sure there are people who can dodge a fireball, but can a cleric in heavy armor?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
I concede that would only let you throw the rock and not necessarily hit, but like I said, you could also use many other options like a bucket of water that can guaranteed hit the pc. Keep in mind that these would be tactics used by the DM, so they can really just say it will work.
A DM can say anything, but it would really be a jerk move to do that to a player just because they want to. Even with the water, there are no guarantees. If you are trying to do something to another creature, there’s a roll: attack, skill check, saving throw. You can’t just decide you want a thing to work. There’s people who can dodge a fireball centered on them. A water bucket is nothing.
To a player who is exploiting the rules? A DM does, in fact, have the power to just make a thing work. Sure there are people who can dodge a fireball, but can a cleric in heavy armor?
So in this scenario, rather than just shutting it down, the DM allows a player to exploit the rules, then responds by exploiting them also. What a bad game experience.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I want to know if any RAW prevent the kind of play I'm looking to do with my Roguish Trickery Cleric. I know these things are up to DM discretion, but I also plan to play it in Adventurer's League so I'd like to know where the lines are.
Getting into melee range with my illusion, I figure the enemy has a 50/50 chance to strike the correct one. I've read that many DMs will even do some kind of roll to see if they understand what's happening the first time they whiff. All good. My question comes in when they do discover which is the real you: what's to stop me from using my bonus action to move the image into my space, aligning with it, and then stepping out again to "reset" the enemy's perception of which is which? Again, I know this will mostly be down to the DM, but does this at least work RAW?
The rules don't explicitly state any mechanics that I can tell for how an enemy determines which version is real or even that they have to at all, the way Mirror Image does. RAW, I suppose a DM could even say that they always know and always strike the correct version. Do I understand that correctly? Othwerwise, it kind of seems like a supercharged version of Mirror Image (one that even allows you to swap with it for even more trickery at level 6).
Am I trying to get too fancy with this, or does that all seem above-board?
Free action toss a pebble at either you are the illusion. They now know which one is real.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Invoke duplicity has a lot of uses even if the enemies are not trying to attack it. The ability to switch places with it has many applications, and can make for some great utility for solving problems. the ability to deliver touch spells without having to get close to the enemies should not be undersold either. Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, and Revivify can now be cast from a safe distance, instead of having to get up next to your debilitated frontliner.
I actually think it is the strongest Cleric subclass in the 2024 PHB.
@Jurmonder: If we're going that route, I'd say that trying to actually hit me with the pebble requires an attack roll. Otherwise who's to say I didn't dodge it? The image matches my gestures, therefore if the attack roll misses, both I and my image would appear to have dodged it, whichever it is.
This is the primary way I intend to play it. I'll be sitting back with a True Strike shortbow and 1 level of Rogue for Sneak Attack, using Invoke Duplicity to heal or cast cantrips like Thunderwave (I took Magic Initiate). But when push comes to shove, I also have a rapier, and there's definitely some fun to be had with this fighting up close and personal.
So aside from that, I found some relevant rules text that could apply here:
Emphasis mine. So in the case of Invoke Duplicity, rather than making a guess or flipping a coin, they would just attack with Disadvantage? Or would the attacker indeed have to make a guess, per the last sentence? While I know that this should be in the ability's text if it were to give such a defensive boon, this general rule would seem to apply. And if so, the trick of using my Bonus Action to merge with it and then re-separate should reset enemies' knowledge of my location?
That is referring to when you can't see the target and would not apply here, as you can see the target, you just don't know if that is actually the one you want to hit.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
It's fairly easy to cover your entire square with something physical. eg: toss some water out of a flask.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
That’s not a free action. That would be an improvised weapon attack.
It’s kind of a strange thing. It says the illusion is perfect. But at the same time, it doesn’t say anything about the enemy not knowing which is real and which is the illusion. (Looking at 24 version) For example, it says you have advantage on attacks when your illusion is adjacent. But it doesn’t say anything about there being any effect on the enemy’s attacks.
One of the general principles of the game is: the rules don’t imply anything; if they don’t say they do something, they don’t do it. So the RAW conclusion to me is, the enemy will know which one is which and can attack you freely with no penalties, because there’s nothing in the description that says otherwise. The whole 50/50 chance and knowing what’s happening on a miss are all house rules. FWIW, they seem fairly reasonable, but still, definitely house rules and not RAW.
The benefits, by RAW, are limited to distraction when you make an attack, and casting from its location, and that’s about it. Until you level up, of course.
Not if you're not trying to do damage.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Please point to the rule which says that.
Interesting, that definitely makes sense. It's certainly an odd one, because it goes out of its way to describe it as "perfect". I wanna pull this thread going purely on RAW (because I'm pretty sure a majority of DMs would improvise one thing or another for the ruse, and that's a whole different discussion).
RAW, since summoning the image is a bonus action I suppose one could take the Influence action to actively try and confuse them? Is the Influence action versatile enough for that to work RAW, or would it still need some explicit text from the ability in order for the enemy not to know which is which?
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
That will let you pick up the rock. Not throw it at a target and guarantee a hit.
I concede that would only let you throw the rock and not necessarily hit, but like I said, you could also use many other options like a bucket of water that can guaranteed hit the pc. Keep in mind that these would be tactics used by the DM, so they can really just say it will work.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
Well, that’s going to be a ruling. Influence can be used for deceiving a creature that understands you, which is what you’re trying to do. Though in combat, they would be hostile, so you’d have disadvantage on the check.
But first, there’s going to need to be a ruling on whether the creature is “unwilling” or “hesitant” and mid-fight, I could see a hostile creature being unwilling by default, meaning the attempt would simply fail.
And it’s probably not the best use of your action to try and trick an enemy that’s probably only got 3-5 rounds to live anyway. But that’s a whole different discussion.
You can maybe argue that this would work, but you're never going to find a DM who would let it. (if they have carefully read the rules)
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
A DM can say anything, but it would really be a jerk move to do that to a player just because they want to.
Even with the water, there are no guarantees. If you are trying to do something to another creature, there’s a roll: attack, skill check, saving throw. You can’t just decide you want a thing to work. There’s people who can dodge a fireball centered on them. A water bucket is nothing.
To a player who is exploiting the rules? A DM does, in fact, have the power to just make a thing work. Sure there are people who can dodge a fireball, but can a cleric in heavy armor?
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
Extended signature
So in this scenario, rather than just shutting it down, the DM allows a player to exploit the rules, then responds by exploiting them also. What a bad game experience.