I think it depends on how you visualize the downed state. If you consider it to be the same in appearance as being dead, then it is unlikely that most creatures will attack a corpse when there is a threat nearby. Even a hungry animal will likely try to defend its 'kill' before eating, but a frenzied animal might continue to scratch and shake the body. Personally, I consider the downed state to be that you are no longer capable of defending yourself properly -- you have been knocked to the ground in a daze and are wounded, but not exactly dead yet... another strike or two would surely seal your fate though. This is also how I rationalize why you still have your armor class while downed: you can still weakly move or maybe get your shield in place to deflect a blow at the last moment. A corpse in armor might still have armor, but 6s is a long time to be able to hit a motionless target and should be child's play for a trained combatant. This is also how it makes sense (to me) that an ally would know that a healing word would help instead of a revivify. Now, the mechanics clearly say you are unconscious, but it is more realistic to me to imagine things this way.
I generally consider the motivations of an intelligent creature when deciding whether to coup de grace: bandits will often try to ransom a wounded party member, but if the party has slain a number of their compatriots then maybe they will return the favor. Slavers might want to capture a player to sell them. An assassin, on the other hand, would decidedly not spare their target without a fairly clear and compelling reason. This same measure can be used for non-humanoids, but some people have different ideas of what an aberration or fiend might do. There is no 'wrong' way to go about it, but if you are looking for a more challenging or visceral game dynamic then having enemies give one attack to a downed player instantly ratchets up the tension (of course, not all players enjoy the frequent chance of losing a beloved character, so it is very much a table-to-table preference).
I can see most of your points. The AC argument I have is that I think AC bonus that comes from Dex should not apply in the Unconscious condition, your standard AC from armor should still be protection as enemies have advantage anyway and deal crits.
The whole "Clerics are the Designated Healers! They should do NOTHING BUT HEAL, ALL THE DAMNED TIME FOREVER!" schtick comes from a mix of D&D tradition, modern video gaming design, and simple desire. People feel like there should be somebody on the team whose job it is to make sure all the redbars stay full all the time. Clerics are the ones who always used to do that, so now they're stuck with it. it doesn't matter if you're playing a more active, combative domain like War or Tempest. It doesn't matter that most healing is wildly inefficient and does not even remotely compare to incoming damage, and so healing should generally be saved for out-of-combat triage or screaming-emergency "save this guy's life please" efforts in combat. It doesn't matter that a Dreams druid is far and away a better healer than any cleric save Life or maybe Grave, and that even a Celestial warlock is a better healer than most clerics in either of those roles healing works in.
Modern video game design and the traditions of D&D state that clerics should spend all of their time, all of their resources, and all of their money/items on healing the party while piously living a life of poverty and generosity. It is maddening, especially when those tenets are not the tenets of more than a small fraction of gods clerics may serve. The cleric is so very good at so many other things. Yes, you should generally have at least one redbar spell prepared on the daily just in case. So should anyone else with redbar spells. The bard doesn't get to NOT take Healing Word, even if he's a fighty bard. The druid doesn't get to not prepare Cure Wounds. Even the ranger typically gets to kill a spell pick on Cure, because not only is that a more fair arrangement, it's a stronger one.
Spreading your healing out across multiple members of the party is more effective than demanding one player become nothing but a walking medkit. In an ideal world, every character in the party would have some means of getting someone back on their feet. Even the nonmagic folks, who should ideally be discussing the idea of training in first aid/CLS techniques with their DM in order to pick up the Healer feat and a medkit to go with it. The cleric carries very powerful healing spells they should consider bringing at higher levels, but trying to rely on the cleric the same way an MMO herpaderp party relies on their healer is going to get your party very dead, very quickly, and it's a fantastic way of ensuring absolutely nobody wants to play 'the dumb healer class'.
So stop it. Let clerics be clerics and do your own freakin' healing, at least a little bit. If you're so concerned with not having any "proper" healers, play one yourself. Roll up that Life cleric or that Alchemist artificer and be the party's designated bottom. Have fun, if you can figure out how.
The whole "Clerics are the Designated Healers! They should do NOTHING BUT HEAL, ALL THE DAMNED TIME FOREVER!" schtick comes from a mix of D&D tradition, modern video gaming design, and simple desire. People feel like there should be somebody on the team whose job it is to make sure all the redbars stay full all the time. Clerics are the ones who always used to do that, so now they're stuck with it. it doesn't matter if you're playing a more active, combative domain like War or Tempest. It doesn't matter that most healing is wildly inefficient and does not even remotely compare to incoming damage, and so healing should generally be saved for out-of-combat triage or screaming-emergency "save this guy's life please" efforts in combat. It doesn't matter that a Dreams druid is far and away a better healer than any cleric save Life or maybe Grave, and that even a Celestial warlock is a better healer than most clerics in either of those roles healing works in.
Modern video game design and the traditions of D&D state that clerics should spend all of their time, all of their resources, and all of their money/items on healing the party while piously living a life of poverty and generosity. It is maddening, especially when those tenets are not the tenets of more than a small fraction of gods clerics may serve. The cleric is so very good at so many other things. Yes, you should generally have at least one redbar spell prepared on the daily just in case. So should anyone else with redbar spells. The bard doesn't get to NOT take Healing Word, even if he's a fighty bard. The druid doesn't get to not prepare Cure Wounds. Even the ranger typically gets to kill a spell pick on Cure, because not only is that a more fair arrangement, it's a stronger one.
Spreading your healing out across multiple members of the party is more effective than demanding one player become nothing but a walking medkit. In an ideal world, every character in the party would have some means of getting someone back on their feet. Even the nonmagic folks, who should ideally be discussing the idea of training in first aid/CLS techniques with their DM in order to pick up the Healer feat and a medkit to go with it. The cleric carries very powerful healing spells they should consider bringing at higher levels, but trying to rely on the cleric the same way an MMO herpaderp party relies on their healer is going to get your party very dead, very quickly, and it's a fantastic way of ensuring absolutely nobody wants to play 'the dumb healer class'.
So stop it. Let clerics be clerics and do your own freakin' healing, at least a little bit. If you're so concerned with not having any "proper" healers, play one yourself. Roll up that Life cleric or that Alchemist artificer and be the party's designated bottom. Have fun, if you can figure out how.
Alchemists are actually cool, but, that aside, yes, all of that.
The whole "Clerics are the Designated Healers! They should do NOTHING BUT HEAL, ALL THE DAMNED TIME FOREVER!" schtick comes from a mix of D&D tradition, modern video gaming design, and simple desire. People feel like there should be somebody on the team whose job it is to make sure all the redbars stay full all the time. Clerics are the ones who always used to do that, so now they're stuck with it. it doesn't matter if you're playing a more active, combative domain like War or Tempest. It doesn't matter that most healing is wildly inefficient and does not even remotely compare to incoming damage, and so healing should generally be saved for out-of-combat triage or screaming-emergency "save this guy's life please" efforts in combat. It doesn't matter that a Dreams druid is far and away a better healer than any cleric save Life or maybe Grave, and that even a Celestial warlock is a better healer than most clerics in either of those roles healing works in.
Modern video game design and the traditions of D&D state that clerics should spend all of their time, all of their resources, and all of their money/items on healing the party while piously living a life of poverty and generosity. It is maddening, especially when those tenets are not the tenets of more than a small fraction of gods clerics may serve. The cleric is so very good at so many other things. Yes, you should generally have at least one redbar spell prepared on the daily just in case. So should anyone else with redbar spells. The bard doesn't get to NOT take Healing Word, even if he's a fighty bard. The druid doesn't get to not prepare Cure Wounds. Even the ranger typically gets to kill a spell pick on Cure, because not only is that a more fair arrangement, it's a stronger one.
Spreading your healing out across multiple members of the party is more effective than demanding one player become nothing but a walking medkit. In an ideal world, every character in the party would have some means of getting someone back on their feet. Even the nonmagic folks, who should ideally be discussing the idea of training in first aid/CLS techniques with their DM in order to pick up the Healer feat and a medkit to go with it. The cleric carries very powerful healing spells they should consider bringing at higher levels, but trying to rely on the cleric the same way an MMO herpaderp party relies on their healer is going to get your party very dead, very quickly, and it's a fantastic way of ensuring absolutely nobody wants to play 'the dumb healer class'.
So stop it. Let clerics be clerics and do your own freakin' healing, at least a little bit. If you're so concerned with not having any "proper" healers, play one yourself. Roll up that Life cleric or that Alchemist artificer and be the party's designated bottom. Have fun, if you can figure out how.
Who said that's all clerics should do?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Maybe my experience doesn't fit, because I've just interacted with my D&D group and with the online community that follows the game a bit more, but my impression is that it's a small minority that thinks that "Clerics are healers." My impression is that most people understand that the healer role doesn't really exist, that players are expected to do more than just heal in combat, and that people see some of the powerful damaging abilities that Clerics have and are impressed by them.
My group in particular knows that Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are two of the most powerful spells in the game for 2nd level and 3rd level spells, and that only Clerics get these spells (or Divine Soul Sorcerers, or Bards that use their magical secrets, or some Paladins as half casters).
I've played two Clerics (and a Celestial Warlock), and I've never felt pushed into the healer role. They do know that I have Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration prepared, but that most of my spell slots will go to casting spells that aren't healing or restoration, and especially at low levels, that I don't have enough spell slots to just use a spell slot every turn. My first Cleric was casting Bless a few times each day, and that was his primary use of his first level spell slots. My second Cleric started off with 1 level in Sorcerer, and she prefers to use her first level spell slots for Shield and Absorb Elements because being multi-attribute dependent left her with just 12 Constitution. Neither one of my Clerics was/is going to use a spell slot to heal somebody unless that ally is down on the ground with 0 HP.
I don't think it takes very long for groups to realize that healing people during combat instead of using those spell slots to deal damage is not very effective. Dead enemies don't deal damage.
This isn’t WoW. The whole “tank/healer/striker/etc.” build mentality is a rather ridiculous concept in D&D. Just because someone is better at healing than someone else doesn’t make them “The Healer” in D&D. Just like having the bast AC doesn’t make a character “The Tank.”
You did, for one. Not directly, but your stated position that a cleric should be the character in the party who's primarily concerned with redbar work - that if it's anybody's job, it's the cleric's - tends to come with the sidecar expectation that the cleric will always save its resources for redbar duties. That no matter how powerful Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians is, those spells slots had better be saved for healing spells the party might need in the future. Once you get Revivify, you'd best always have a third-level slot ready to go - and buying diamonds to resurrect party members is your job, Mr. I-can-cast-Revivify-and-nobody-else-can.
If you want to play the cleric of a warrior god, a temperamental storm god, a god of the forge, a god of searing, judgmental light, or basically anything but a meek, simpering cleric of the domestic deity of healing in your 'verse, you generally have to convince your party to let you. And then constantly remind them that you're not the healbot. Even when your heavily armored cleric is on the front lines taking damage and saving squishies, everybody always expects you to drop whatever you're doing to get that damned sorcerer back on his feet, no matter how many attacks of opportunity you take doing it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Sure. Because that's the entire point of the conversation.
Everyone the hell else always gets furious whenever a cleric doesn't do anything but sit in the back and either sling healing Words or conserve their spells for Cure Wounds. The whole "it's the cleric's job to heal, because they can" hornswoggle is terrible for the game and people should stop perpetuating it.
This isn’t WoW. The whole “tank/healer/striker/etc.” build mentality is a rather ridiculous concept in D&D. Just because someone is better at healing than someone else doesn’t make them “The Healer” in D&D. Just like having the bast AC doesn’t make a character “The Tank.”
Case in point, my barbarian is our party's "tank" and has a 14/16 AC depending on whether I'm rocking my shield or sporting my GreatAxe or in dual handaxe mode. The Grave Cleric has +2 dex modifier, scale mail and a shield for 18 AC. The freaking warlock has 16 from Staff of Defense, Armor of Shadows and +2 dex modifier. Even the Rogue has a 15 AC with Studded Leather and a +3 dex mod, meaning that I'm the lowest AC character in the party if I'm not geared for defense. Since I have at least a dozen more HPs and Rage, I'm blocking that choke point and everyone else is sitting at range and nearly needs new underwear every time they get into melee. And it doesn't bother me one bit.
The only time I got testy with the Cleric was when he was stressing being in melee with his 18 and I pointed out that my AC was lower. He offered to move into the lead position and the only time I let him do it was when we were leaving Tresander Manor with Glasstaff and I was worried that the Nothic might attack us while I had no Rages left.
The only gripe that I have with his spell selection is that he uses Bane instead of Bless. I think that helping to ensure 3 attacks for sure would be better than a chance to ensure his Toll the Dead succeeds more frequently along with possibly preventing a few attacks from landing. I suggested it one time and I'm now content to let him play the way he wants. I don't think he's actually cast more than 1 healing spell and no one has hit 0 yet (I haven't even used Relentless Endurance yet. The one time that he was going to cast a heal on me, he tried to cast Healing Word after casting Bane.
We'll see what happens later, but so far the dynamic has worked fine. This might be because the DM is going a little easy on us since the Warlock and Cleric are first time players and the rogue has only played Druid to level 3 other than this, but he hasn't made it overtly known.
Ahh, the old [Tooltip Not Found] technique. Works every time.
Lol I hate the items on here. The format for them is goofy and I have to look them up more often than not. I try to at least proof them after, and I've got those fixed now.
Ahh, the old [Tooltip Not Found] technique. Works every time.
Lol I hate the items on here. The format for them is goofy and I have to look them up more often than not. I try to at least proof them after, and I've got those fixed now.
Ahh, the old [Tooltip Not Found] technique. Works every time.
Lol I hate the items on here. The format for them is goofy and I have to look them up more often than not. I try to at least proof them after, and I've got those fixed now.
This isn’t WoW. The whole “tank/healer/striker/etc.” build mentality is a rather ridiculous concept in D&D. Just because someone is better at healing than someone else doesn’t make them “The Healer” in D&D. Just like having the bast AC doesn’t make a character “The Tank.”
Case in point, my barbarian is our party's "tank" and has a 14/16 AC depending on whether I'm rocking my shield or sporting my GreatAxe or in dual handaxe mode. The Grave Cleric has +2 dex modifier, scale mail and a shield for 18 AC. The freaking warlock has 16 from Staff of Defense, Armor of Shadows and +2 dex modifier. Even the Rogue has a 15 AC with Studded Leather and a +3 dex mod, meaning that I'm the lowest AC character in the party if I'm not geared for defense. Since I have at least a dozen more HPs and Rage, I'm blocking that choke point and everyone else is sitting at range and nearly needs new underwear every time they get into melee. And it doesn't bother me one bit.
The only time I got testy with the Cleric was when he was stressing being in melee with his 18 and I pointed out that my AC was lower. He offered to move into the lead position and the only time I let him do it was when we were leaving Tresander Manor with Glasstaff and I was worried that the Nothic might attack us while I had no Rages left.
The only gripe that I have with his spell selection is that he uses Bane instead of Bless. I think that helping to ensure 3 attacks for sure would be better than a chance to ensure his Toll the Dead succeeds more frequently along with possibly preventing a few attacks from landing. I suggested it one time and I'm now content to let him play the way he wants. I don't think he's actually cast more than 1 healing spell and no one has hit 0 yet (I haven't even used Relentless Endurance yet. The one time that he was going to cast a heal on me, he tried to cast Healing Word after casting Bane.
We'll see what happens later, but so far the dynamic has worked fine. This might be because the DM is going a little easy on us since the Warlock and Cleric are first time players and the rogue has only played Druid to level 3 other than this, but he hasn't made it overtly known.
Everyone has higher AC than you but, nobody else takes half damage for up to 20 rounds a day against most hits, and yes, you have 1d12 for HP dice. Your Grave cleric use Bane because it's always prepared so, putting on Bless as well would be...Dumb?
This isn’t WoW. The whole “tank/healer/striker/etc.” build mentality is a rather ridiculous concept in D&D. Just because someone is better at healing than someone else doesn’t make them “The Healer” in D&D. Just like having the bast AC doesn’t make a character “The Tank.”
Case in point, my barbarian is our party's "tank" and has a 14/16 AC depending on whether I'm rocking my shield or sporting my GreatAxe or in dual handaxe mode. The Grave Cleric has +2 dex modifier, scale mail and a shield for 18 AC. The freaking warlock has 16 from Staff of Defense, Armor of Shadows and +2 dex modifier. Even the Rogue has a 15 AC with Studded Leather and a +3 dex mod, meaning that I'm the lowest AC character in the party if I'm not geared for defense. Since I have at least a dozen more HPs and Rage, I'm blocking that choke point and everyone else is sitting at range and nearly needs new underwear every time they get into melee. And it doesn't bother me one bit.
The only time I got testy with the Cleric was when he was stressing being in melee with his 18 and I pointed out that my AC was lower. He offered to move into the lead position and the only time I let him do it was when we were leaving Tresander Manor with Glasstaff and I was worried that the Nothic might attack us while I had no Rages left.
The only gripe that I have with his spell selection is that he uses Bane instead of Bless. I think that helping to ensure 3 attacks for sure would be better than a chance to ensure his Toll the Dead succeeds more frequently along with possibly preventing a few attacks from landing. I suggested it one time and I'm now content to let him play the way he wants. I don't think he's actually cast more than 1 healing spell and no one has hit 0 yet (I haven't even used Relentless Endurance yet. The one time that he was going to cast a heal on me, he tried to cast Healing Word after casting Bane.
We'll see what happens later, but so far the dynamic has worked fine. This might be because the DM is going a little easy on us since the Warlock and Cleric are first time players and the rogue has only played Druid to level 3 other than this, but he hasn't made it overtly known.
Everyone has higher AC than you but, nobody else takes half damage for up to 20 rounds a day against most hits, and yes, you have 1d12 for HP dice. Your Grave cleric use Bane because it's always prepared so, putting on Bless as well would be...Dumb?
He has Bless prepared. It would be a different story if he didn't have it prepared. Also, I'm fully aware of all the benefits that the barbarian has. That's why I chose barbarian after everyone else had made their character. It was one of the ways that I could fill in a weakness that the party was going to have. It just so happens that everyone can have higher AC than me, which was the point that was made.
This is kind of a perfect example of expecting a type of play from the Cleric. If the enemies you are fighting really aren't casting spells against you, Bane might be the better choice as half your party will be casting spells on the enemies. So, depriving the enemy of potential damage and making them more susceptible to spells could be seen as more advantageous than buffing 3 players for hit when only 2 need it all the time and buffing for saves that no one needs. Bane is damage reduction and can be way more effective than healing.
Just because someone isn't doing something to directly benefit YOU doesn't mean they arent being helpful to the party or that they made the "wrong choice".
Bless is a very nice spell, but you are a barbarian -- you have reckless attack to boost your accuracy if needed, and if the enemies aren't especially difficult to hit to begin with then bless isnt as valuable a spell to have up considering that it uses your concentration
I think it depends on how you visualize the downed state. If you consider it to be the same in appearance as being dead, then it is unlikely that most creatures will attack a corpse when there is a threat nearby. Even a hungry animal will likely try to defend its 'kill' before eating, but a frenzied animal might continue to scratch and shake the body. Personally, I consider the downed state to be that you are no longer capable of defending yourself properly -- you have been knocked to the ground in a daze and are wounded, but not exactly dead yet... another strike or two would surely seal your fate though. This is also how I rationalize why you still have your armor class while downed: you can still weakly move or maybe get your shield in place to deflect a blow at the last moment. A corpse in armor might still have armor, but 6s is a long time to be able to hit a motionless target and should be child's play for a trained combatant. This is also how it makes sense (to me) that an ally would know that a healing word would help instead of a revivify. Now, the mechanics clearly say you are unconscious, but it is more realistic to me to imagine things this way.
I generally consider the motivations of an intelligent creature when deciding whether to coup de grace: bandits will often try to ransom a wounded party member, but if the party has slain a number of their compatriots then maybe they will return the favor. Slavers might want to capture a player to sell them. An assassin, on the other hand, would decidedly not spare their target without a fairly clear and compelling reason. This same measure can be used for non-humanoids, but some people have different ideas of what an aberration or fiend might do. There is no 'wrong' way to go about it, but if you are looking for a more challenging or visceral game dynamic then having enemies give one attack to a downed player instantly ratchets up the tension (of course, not all players enjoy the frequent chance of losing a beloved character, so it is very much a table-to-table preference).
I can see most of your points. The AC argument I have is that I think AC bonus that comes from Dex should not apply in the Unconscious condition, your standard AC from armor should still be protection as enemies have advantage anyway and deal crits.
The whole "Clerics are the Designated Healers! They should do NOTHING BUT HEAL, ALL THE DAMNED TIME FOREVER!" schtick comes from a mix of D&D tradition, modern video gaming design, and simple desire. People feel like there should be somebody on the team whose job it is to make sure all the redbars stay full all the time. Clerics are the ones who always used to do that, so now they're stuck with it. it doesn't matter if you're playing a more active, combative domain like War or Tempest. It doesn't matter that most healing is wildly inefficient and does not even remotely compare to incoming damage, and so healing should generally be saved for out-of-combat triage or screaming-emergency "save this guy's life please" efforts in combat. It doesn't matter that a Dreams druid is far and away a better healer than any cleric save Life or maybe Grave, and that even a Celestial warlock is a better healer than most clerics in either of those roles healing works in.
Modern video game design and the traditions of D&D state that clerics should spend all of their time, all of their resources, and all of their money/items on healing the party while piously living a life of poverty and generosity. It is maddening, especially when those tenets are not the tenets of more than a small fraction of gods clerics may serve. The cleric is so very good at so many other things. Yes, you should generally have at least one redbar spell prepared on the daily just in case. So should anyone else with redbar spells. The bard doesn't get to NOT take Healing Word, even if he's a fighty bard. The druid doesn't get to not prepare Cure Wounds. Even the ranger typically gets to kill a spell pick on Cure, because not only is that a more fair arrangement, it's a stronger one.
Spreading your healing out across multiple members of the party is more effective than demanding one player become nothing but a walking medkit. In an ideal world, every character in the party would have some means of getting someone back on their feet. Even the nonmagic folks, who should ideally be discussing the idea of training in first aid/CLS techniques with their DM in order to pick up the Healer feat and a medkit to go with it. The cleric carries very powerful healing spells they should consider bringing at higher levels, but trying to rely on the cleric the same way an MMO herpaderp party relies on their healer is going to get your party very dead, very quickly, and it's a fantastic way of ensuring absolutely nobody wants to play 'the dumb healer class'.
So stop it. Let clerics be clerics and do your own freakin' healing, at least a little bit. If you're so concerned with not having any "proper" healers, play one yourself. Roll up that Life cleric or that Alchemist artificer and be the party's designated bottom. Have fun, if you can figure out how.
Please do not contact or message me.
Alchemists are actually cool, but, that aside, yes, all of that.
Who said that's all clerics should do?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Maybe my experience doesn't fit, because I've just interacted with my D&D group and with the online community that follows the game a bit more, but my impression is that it's a small minority that thinks that "Clerics are healers." My impression is that most people understand that the healer role doesn't really exist, that players are expected to do more than just heal in combat, and that people see some of the powerful damaging abilities that Clerics have and are impressed by them.
My group in particular knows that Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are two of the most powerful spells in the game for 2nd level and 3rd level spells, and that only Clerics get these spells (or Divine Soul Sorcerers, or Bards that use their magical secrets, or some Paladins as half casters).
I've played two Clerics (and a Celestial Warlock), and I've never felt pushed into the healer role. They do know that I have Cure Wounds and Lesser Restoration prepared, but that most of my spell slots will go to casting spells that aren't healing or restoration, and especially at low levels, that I don't have enough spell slots to just use a spell slot every turn. My first Cleric was casting Bless a few times each day, and that was his primary use of his first level spell slots. My second Cleric started off with 1 level in Sorcerer, and she prefers to use her first level spell slots for Shield and Absorb Elements because being multi-attribute dependent left her with just 12 Constitution. Neither one of my Clerics was/is going to use a spell slot to heal somebody unless that ally is down on the ground with 0 HP.
I don't think it takes very long for groups to realize that healing people during combat instead of using those spell slots to deal damage is not very effective. Dead enemies don't deal damage.
This isn’t WoW. The whole “tank/healer/striker/etc.” build mentality is a rather ridiculous concept in D&D. Just because someone is better at healing than someone else doesn’t make them “The Healer” in D&D. Just like having the bast AC doesn’t make a character “The Tank.”
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"Who said that's all clerics should do?"
You did, for one. Not directly, but your stated position that a cleric should be the character in the party who's primarily concerned with redbar work - that if it's anybody's job, it's the cleric's - tends to come with the sidecar expectation that the cleric will always save its resources for redbar duties. That no matter how powerful Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians is, those spells slots had better be saved for healing spells the party might need in the future. Once you get Revivify, you'd best always have a third-level slot ready to go - and buying diamonds to resurrect party members is your job, Mr. I-can-cast-Revivify-and-nobody-else-can.
If you want to play the cleric of a warrior god, a temperamental storm god, a god of the forge, a god of searing, judgmental light, or basically anything but a meek, simpering cleric of the domestic deity of healing in your 'verse, you generally have to convince your party to let you. And then constantly remind them that you're not the healbot. Even when your heavily armored cleric is on the front lines taking damage and saving squishies, everybody always expects you to drop whatever you're doing to get that damned sorcerer back on his feet, no matter how many attacks of opportunity you take doing it.
It sucks.
Please do not contact or message me.
♪♪♪TRADITIOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!♪♪♪
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Sure. Because that's the entire point of the conversation.
Everyone the hell else always gets furious whenever a cleric doesn't do anything but sit in the back and either sling healing Words or conserve their spells for Cure Wounds. The whole "it's the cleric's job to heal, because they can" hornswoggle is terrible for the game and people should stop perpetuating it.
Please do not contact or message me.
Case in point, my barbarian is our party's "tank" and has a 14/16 AC depending on whether I'm rocking my shield or sporting my GreatAxe or in dual handaxe mode. The Grave Cleric has +2 dex modifier, scale mail and a shield for 18 AC. The freaking warlock has 16 from Staff of Defense, Armor of Shadows and +2 dex modifier. Even the Rogue has a 15 AC with Studded Leather and a +3 dex mod, meaning that I'm the lowest AC character in the party if I'm not geared for defense. Since I have at least a dozen more HPs and Rage, I'm blocking that choke point and everyone else is sitting at range and nearly needs new underwear every time they get into melee. And it doesn't bother me one bit.
The only time I got testy with the Cleric was when he was stressing being in melee with his 18 and I pointed out that my AC was lower. He offered to move into the lead position and the only time I let him do it was when we were leaving Tresander Manor with Glasstaff and I was worried that the Nothic might attack us while I had no Rages left.
The only gripe that I have with his spell selection is that he uses Bane instead of Bless. I think that helping to ensure 3 attacks for sure would be better than a chance to ensure his Toll the Dead succeeds more frequently along with possibly preventing a few attacks from landing. I suggested it one time and I'm now content to let him play the way he wants. I don't think he's actually cast more than 1 healing spell and no one has hit 0 yet (I haven't even used Relentless Endurance yet. The one time that he was going to cast a heal on me, he tried to cast Healing Word after casting Bane.
We'll see what happens later, but so far the dynamic has worked fine. This might be because the DM is going a little easy on us since the Warlock and Cleric are first time players and the rogue has only played Druid to level 3 other than this, but he hasn't made it overtly known.
Ahh, the old [Tooltip Not Found] technique. Works every time.
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Lol I hate the items on here. The format for them is goofy and I have to look them up more often than not. I try to at least proof them after, and I've got those fixed now.
Tell me about it. Do you have any idea how long it took me to remember Rope, Hempen (50 feet) and Caltrops (Bag of 20)?!?
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No. Absolutely not. It's clearly Rope, Silk (50 feet) and Ball Bearings (Bag of 1,000).
Ok the Silk Rope isn't as hard to spell as Hempen for most people, but that comma... [Tooltip Not Found] it makes a difference.
Everyone has higher AC than you but, nobody else takes half damage for up to 20 rounds a day against most hits, and yes, you have 1d12 for HP dice. Your Grave cleric use Bane because it's always prepared so, putting on Bless as well would be...Dumb?
He has Bless prepared. It would be a different story if he didn't have it prepared. Also, I'm fully aware of all the benefits that the barbarian has. That's why I chose barbarian after everyone else had made their character. It was one of the ways that I could fill in a weakness that the party was going to have. It just so happens that everyone can have higher AC than me, which was the point that was made.
This is kind of a perfect example of expecting a type of play from the Cleric. If the enemies you are fighting really aren't casting spells against you, Bane might be the better choice as half your party will be casting spells on the enemies. So, depriving the enemy of potential damage and making them more susceptible to spells could be seen as more advantageous than buffing 3 players for hit when only 2 need it all the time and buffing for saves that no one needs. Bane is damage reduction and can be way more effective than healing.
^ he's right, you know.
Just because someone isn't doing something to directly benefit YOU doesn't mean they arent being helpful to the party or that they made the "wrong choice".
Bless is a very nice spell, but you are a barbarian -- you have reckless attack to boost your accuracy if needed, and if the enemies aren't especially difficult to hit to begin with then bless isnt as valuable a spell to have up considering that it uses your concentration