the 2024 Concentration rules specifically say spell effects end when concentration is lost or ended. The temp HP is an effect gained by the spell due to the Beast form you take, so it is tied to the Concentration rules.
Therefore there is a very clear rule that shows that the Temp hit points are lost when you drop your polymorph shape. The hit points are clearly linked to the Spell, so dropping the spell removes them instantly.
Yes, that's one interpretation. The 2024 PHB duration rule specifically says Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest. So, no, it's not very clear which rule supersedes the other, unless they decide to make it more clear in DMG or errata. I'm guessing the Concentration rule is more appropriate, but it would have been so easy for them to say so.
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Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
are there any other spells that grant THP and use conc?
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to the Frightened condition and gains Temporary Hit Points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 1.
A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened and gains temporary hit points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns. When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 1st.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Personally, don't think concentration is the limit, its having a duration other than instant.
Instant spells the effect hits you and whatever the effect is lands and stays landed. Duration spells the effect hits you and only stays active while the duration is still going. So heroism ends including the temp hit points when you lose concentration or the duration is up, Armor of Agathys when a hour is up the temp hit points go away if there are any left.
There is no real evidence either way as the question comes down to which is the specific rule overriding the general rule. It just comes down to a gut feeling on how you think these spells are intended to work when taking into account even silly things like polymorph. It is possible in the absurd cases they intended to add some exception line and forgot, or did 0 play testing with people who play RPGs so didn't see that interaction coming. But I don't think it is likely they intended a level 4 spell to toss out 157 temp hit points that easily.
Like using the Heroism example, the language changed. Now is that because they want the temp hit points to continue and for you to follow that general rule or is it because the general rule of spells end when the duration is up is what wins, and they felt adding that line confuses things as it makes it seem like it's an exception and not the rule. Who knows. No one until they clarify it. I know for my table one ruling kind of breaks the game, and one doesn't so that is how I will be ruling.
so the new DMG states that players should not try and "break the rules" and are expected to remain in the spirit of the game and the intention of the rules. In this they have now basically said don't try and find "loopholes" so in this case as your DM I would tell you very clearly that no, that is not the purpose of the spell (to be used to give lots of temp hitpoints and keep your non polymorphed stuff)
A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened and gains temporary hit points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns. When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.
Right- This is exactly the wording they could have easily included in 2024 Polymorph, to avoid confusion on which rule supersedes the other. Instead, they did not. I would not infer this is the RAI for any other such spell. Instead, I would infer that because they didn't include this exact wording on another spell, they intentionally didn't intend it to work this way on that spell.
Again, I personally think Polymorph is OP if you assume the Temp HP rule is to be followed. Even so, this 2014 Heroism reading seems to reinforce that the Temp HP rule is the rule to be followed for other spells like Polymorph, and is not some sort of loophole, unless they issue an errata (which takes basically 0 effort on their part) or update the description to be like Heroism.
I agree with you in pretty much all respects. I was hoping that the example would show the THP dropped for another spell; NOT that they removed that exact text from another spell for 2024. The fact that they removed it from Heroism, tells me that's how they want THP to work generally. I can't find any excuse other than what I perceive to be logic that the THP should drop with along with the conc. I have to believe that their RAI atm follows the THP rules. I don't like that.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened and gains temporary hit points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns. When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.
Right- This is exactly the wording they could have easily included in 2024 Polymorph, to avoid confusion on which rule supersedes the other. Instead, they did not. I would not infer this is the RAI for any other such spell. Instead, I would infer that because they didn't include this exact wording on another spell, they intentionally didn't intend it to work this way on that spell.
Again, I personally think Polymorph is OP if you assume the Temp HP rule is to be followed. Even so, this 2014 Heroism reading seems to reinforce that the Temp HP rule is the rule to be followed for other spells like Polymorph, and is not some sort of loophole, unless they issue an errata (which takes basically 0 effort on their part) or update the description to be like Heroism.
The place they should have put it is the duration rules. Be explicit, when the duration of a spell whether it has concentration or set time the effects end even if there are other rules about how long that effect lasts. So like if you had contagion spell which causes a disease, the disease only lasts for the duration of the spell not for the normal length of the disease.(I realize they removed diseases in 2024, its just an example)
I read this the pother way, they removed that line from Heroism because they have now homogenised that all spell effects drop when concentration is lost so don't need to include it in the spell description. As per the new DMG the spirit of the rules seem to be that THP, as a condition of the spell while concentration is held, are lost when concentration is lost or the spell is dropped. Therefore for me as a DM there will be no debate, if a spell is concentration and if concentration is lost, or the spell dropped, then you lose all spell effects including any THP.
Otherwise what is to stop a character with polymorph turning all the party into a great ape one at a time, dropping the spell and instantly giivng the whole party a massive hit point sink. The new DMG specifically states that situations like this, where the spirit of the rules is being ignored, should not happen.
Are the rules being violated though? I mean I find players get alot more understanding when they see the dragon or arch mage popping polymorph on their allys. When it gets too far just tell me the lich has scryed you and is worried he has hired a team of kobalds to beef his defenses. The kobalds are members of the tucker clan.
One quirk of DND is that you can't play it without a dungeon master. Making the role of dungeon master more accessible is a benefit to everyone who wants to play DND.
A lot of dungeon masters burn out from decision fatigue. Adding more clarity, and taking things off the dungeon masters plate seems to be a big emphasis of this rule redesign. I think that is a fantastic direction. And the team that brought us the best balanced and easiest to play version of the game in 2024 is poised to give us a DM renaissance in 2025.
While I agree that clarifying things for DMs is a good direction, squelching player agency and creativity in order to do so or publishing Monster stat blocks with little to no lore/description of habits and preferences is a lazy (mis)direction for the devs to go. While I don't think that the base Druid itself is the biggest recipient of this tendency necessarily, they really weakened Conjure Animals and, it seems, several other Druid-staple spells like Moonbeam. The biggest weight on DMs has always been time and money to do preparation and to understand the rules well. While I agree that some rules streamlining was in order for the Druid (esp. Moon), they've practically destroyed the Shepard Druid and took one of the few great strengths of the Druid (summoning) and made it into a literal shadow of its former self. This is both sad and will likely create a lot of conflict at tables over which version of this and other spells to use going forward.
After seeing a Moon Druid in action, Tier 3 play, I can confidently say that the changes have not hindered them in the slightest. They’re still great support healers and make decent offensive casters. If moderately prioritizing constitution, they make for great tanks as the number of temporary hit points, from what I’ve seen, take 2-3 turns to be depleted. That’s an ample amount of time to have any fight in your favor.
the one injustice they face now, however, is the Monster Manual. They did Druids dirty with taking away well known used Wild shapes. Giant Eagles, vultures, etc. most large flying beasts had their creature type changed…I’m sure there are plenty of others. This is the true letdown of the Druid.
Yea, the MM is a definite let down. We really need some sort of official rules or digital tool for scaling the CR of beasts for Wild Shape or they need to make an official feat or something that improves attack rolls while wild shaped.
Yea, the MM is a definite let down. We really need some sort of official rules or digital tool for scaling the CR of beasts for Wild Shape or they need to make an official feat or something that improves attack rolls while wild shaped.
Where is the confusion? If you aren't playing Circle of the Moon, you probably shouldn't be using them for combat.
A level 5 druid (Circle of the Moon) who uses WS to become a Tiger still uses their proficiency bonus, so they roll +6 to hit instead of +5. And since the Tiger has Expertise in Stealth, so would the druid. That's a +9.
A level 15 druid (Circle of the Moon) who is uses WS to become a Triceratops gets to use their +5 PB, not the beast's +3, so Gore is +11 to hit.
Or are you saying there's no way to reflect these changes on the character sheet? I haven't built one using the new PH, but there was "Wild Shape" under the Extras tab. Is that gone?
Yea, the MM is a definite let down. We really need some sort of official rules or digital tool for scaling the CR of beasts for Wild Shape or they need to make an official feat or something that improves attack rolls while wild shaped.
Where is the confusion? If you aren't playing Circle of the Moon, you probably shouldn't be using them for combat.
A level 5 druid (Circle of the Moon) who uses WS to become a Tiger still uses their proficiency bonus, so they roll +6 to hit instead of +5. And since the Tiger has Expertise in Stealth, so would the druid. That's a +9.
A level 15 druid (Circle of the Moon) who is uses WS to become a Triceratops gets to use their +5 PB, not the beast's +3, so Gore is +11 to hit.
Or are you saying there's no way to reflect these changes on the character sheet? I haven't built one using the new PH, but there was "Wild Shape" under the Extras tab. Is that gone?
There's nothing in the rules for Wild Shape that says the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. That's sort of the problem.
Likewise, the Tiger having a high Stealth bonus does not affect the Druid's Stealth bonus. The rules say that you use whichever bonus is higher, not that one of them modifies the other.
It is now (as in, they fixed this in like the last 24 hours) possible to add 2024-style Wild Shape options on the Extras tab. However, this doesn't provide the full functionality I think most players would want as they're just displaying static stat blocks.
Proficiency Bonus isn't a game statistic listed in the Stat Block entry for the Rules Glossary, and players don't have a Challenge Rating.
Or is the argument that a druid under the effect of Polymorph or Wild Shape has a Challenge Rating?
Proficiency Bonus is listed under the CR heading in that glossary entry.
My point is that Wild Shape replaces your stats with those of the beast form, with a small list of exceptions that does not include anything to do with attack rolls. There's nothing in the rules that says that the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. It does say that the Druid's proficiency bonus is still used for skill checks and saving throws that the Druid is proficient in, but that you can use the beast form's skill and saving throw modifiers if they're higher. That is very specifically talking about ability checks and saving throws, not attack rolls.
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the 2024 Concentration rules specifically say spell effects end when concentration is lost or ended. The temp HP is an effect gained by the spell due to the Beast form you take, so it is tied to the Concentration rules.
Therefore there is a very clear rule that shows that the Temp hit points are lost when you drop your polymorph shape. The hit points are clearly linked to the Spell, so dropping the spell removes them instantly.
Yes, that's one interpretation. The 2024 PHB duration rule specifically says Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest. So, no, it's not very clear which rule supersedes the other, unless they decide to make it more clear in DMG or errata. I'm guessing the Concentration rule is more appropriate, but it would have been so easy for them to say so.
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
are there any other spells that grant THP and use conc?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Heroism
Looking at Heroism as a template, there's two versions, a 2024 and a Legacy version.
A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to the Frightened condition and gains Temporary Hit Points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 1.
A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened and gains temporary hit points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns. When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 1st.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Personally, don't think concentration is the limit, its having a duration other than instant.
Instant spells the effect hits you and whatever the effect is lands and stays landed. Duration spells the effect hits you and only stays active while the duration is still going. So heroism ends including the temp hit points when you lose concentration or the duration is up, Armor of Agathys when a hour is up the temp hit points go away if there are any left.
There is no real evidence either way as the question comes down to which is the specific rule overriding the general rule. It just comes down to a gut feeling on how you think these spells are intended to work when taking into account even silly things like polymorph. It is possible in the absurd cases they intended to add some exception line and forgot, or did 0 play testing with people who play RPGs so didn't see that interaction coming. But I don't think it is likely they intended a level 4 spell to toss out 157 temp hit points that easily.
Like using the Heroism example, the language changed. Now is that because they want the temp hit points to continue and for you to follow that general rule or is it because the general rule of spells end when the duration is up is what wins, and they felt adding that line confuses things as it makes it seem like it's an exception and not the rule. Who knows. No one until they clarify it. I know for my table one ruling kind of breaks the game, and one doesn't so that is how I will be ruling.
so the new DMG states that players should not try and "break the rules" and are expected to remain in the spirit of the game and the intention of the rules. In this they have now basically said don't try and find "loopholes" so in this case as your DM I would tell you very clearly that no, that is not the purpose of the spell (to be used to give lots of temp hitpoints and keep your non polymorphed stuff)
Right- This is exactly the wording they could have easily included in 2024 Polymorph, to avoid confusion on which rule supersedes the other. Instead, they did not. I would not infer this is the RAI for any other such spell. Instead, I would infer that because they didn't include this exact wording on another spell, they intentionally didn't intend it to work this way on that spell.
Again, I personally think Polymorph is OP if you assume the Temp HP rule is to be followed. Even so, this 2014 Heroism reading seems to reinforce that the Temp HP rule is the rule to be followed for other spells like Polymorph, and is not some sort of loophole, unless they issue an errata (which takes basically 0 effort on their part) or update the description to be like Heroism.
Stopped playing AD&D in '82, came back to 5e during COVID. Good times.
I agree with you in pretty much all respects. I was hoping that the example would show the THP dropped for another spell; NOT that they removed that exact text from another spell for 2024. The fact that they removed it from Heroism, tells me that's how they want THP to work generally. I can't find any excuse other than what I perceive to be logic that the THP should drop with along with the conc. I have to believe that their RAI atm follows the THP rules. I don't like that.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The place they should have put it is the duration rules. Be explicit, when the duration of a spell whether it has concentration or set time the effects end even if there are other rules about how long that effect lasts. So like if you had contagion spell which causes a disease, the disease only lasts for the duration of the spell not for the normal length of the disease.(I realize they removed diseases in 2024, its just an example)
I read this the pother way, they removed that line from Heroism because they have now homogenised that all spell effects drop when concentration is lost so don't need to include it in the spell description. As per the new DMG the spirit of the rules seem to be that THP, as a condition of the spell while concentration is held, are lost when concentration is lost or the spell is dropped. Therefore for me as a DM there will be no debate, if a spell is concentration and if concentration is lost, or the spell dropped, then you lose all spell effects including any THP.
Otherwise what is to stop a character with polymorph turning all the party into a great ape one at a time, dropping the spell and instantly giivng the whole party a massive hit point sink. The new DMG specifically states that situations like this, where the spirit of the rules is being ignored, should not happen.
Are the rules being violated though? I mean I find players get alot more understanding when they see the dragon or arch mage popping polymorph on their allys. When it gets too far just tell me the lich has scryed you and is worried he has hired a team of kobalds to beef his defenses. The kobalds are members of the tucker clan.
While I agree that clarifying things for DMs is a good direction, squelching player agency and creativity in order to do so or publishing Monster stat blocks with little to no lore/description of habits and preferences is a lazy (mis)direction for the devs to go. While I don't think that the base Druid itself is the biggest recipient of this tendency necessarily, they really weakened Conjure Animals and, it seems, several other Druid-staple spells like Moonbeam. The biggest weight on DMs has always been time and money to do preparation and to understand the rules well. While I agree that some rules streamlining was in order for the Druid (esp. Moon), they've practically destroyed the Shepard Druid and took one of the few great strengths of the Druid (summoning) and made it into a literal shadow of its former self. This is both sad and will likely create a lot of conflict at tables over which version of this and other spells to use going forward.
After seeing a Moon Druid in action, Tier 3 play, I can confidently say that the changes have not hindered them in the slightest. They’re still great support healers and make decent offensive casters. If moderately prioritizing constitution, they make for great tanks as the number of temporary hit points, from what I’ve seen, take 2-3 turns to be depleted. That’s an ample amount of time to have any fight in your favor.
the one injustice they face now, however, is the Monster Manual. They did Druids dirty with taking away well known used Wild shapes. Giant Eagles, vultures, etc. most large flying beasts had their creature type changed…I’m sure there are plenty of others. This is the true letdown of the Druid.
Yeah I noticed a decent chunk became celestials.
Yea, the MM is a definite let down. We really need some sort of official rules or digital tool for scaling the CR of beasts for Wild Shape or they need to make an official feat or something that improves attack rolls while wild shaped.
Where is the confusion? If you aren't playing Circle of the Moon, you probably shouldn't be using them for combat.
Or are you saying there's no way to reflect these changes on the character sheet? I haven't built one using the new PH, but there was "Wild Shape" under the Extras tab. Is that gone?
There's nothing in the rules for Wild Shape that says the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. That's sort of the problem.
Likewise, the Tiger having a high Stealth bonus does not affect the Druid's Stealth bonus. The rules say that you use whichever bonus is higher, not that one of them modifies the other.
It is now (as in, they fixed this in like the last 24 hours) possible to add 2024-style Wild Shape options on the Extras tab. However, this doesn't provide the full functionality I think most players would want as they're just displaying static stat blocks.
pronouns: he/she/they
Proficiency Bonus isn't a game statistic listed in the Stat Block entry for the Rules Glossary, and players don't have a Challenge Rating.
Or is the argument that a druid under the effect of Polymorph or Wild Shape has a Challenge Rating?
Proficiency Bonus is listed under the CR heading in that glossary entry.
My point is that Wild Shape replaces your stats with those of the beast form, with a small list of exceptions that does not include anything to do with attack rolls. There's nothing in the rules that says that the Druid's proficiency bonus affects the beast form's attack rolls. It does say that the Druid's proficiency bonus is still used for skill checks and saving throws that the Druid is proficient in, but that you can use the beast form's skill and saving throw modifiers if they're higher. That is very specifically talking about ability checks and saving throws, not attack rolls.
pronouns: he/she/they