In my current campaign, I've literally never used wild shape in combat. With the change, I still don't think I will.
On the other hand, Wildshape is far and away better for scouting and utility than it was before, which is kind of funny because they were trying to nerf the druid's scout ability in Playest 2.
We can turn into a spider with our full druid HP and an AC of 13+WIS, plus a bunch of temp HP. It's kind of hilarious to imagine a soldier in full armor getting his butt kicked by a small rat or rabbit, but that's a reality a lot of NPCs might face if they try to deal with the wildshaped druid like they would a normal animal.
this all reads like a "omg, I want to be overpowered from lvl 2 all the way to lvl 20 and I don't want to have any limitations"
Having limited forms boosts creativity because it forces you to deal with situations from sub-optimal starting positions. Having freedom to pick whatever monster you want for summons is the same, summoning pixies that polymorph you into apes or whatever really pulls the agency away from the remainder of the party because declining that polymorph will probably make the druid who cast he conjure spell cry.
I am not sure I agree with the limits on forms, but for moon druid honestly its a moot point if they don't balance beasts and have higher Cr beasts that are functional. After level 9 you will have 1 form that you upgrade every 3 levels you can turn into that has a chance at being useful.
Id say you have a point except wizard is still busted beyond reason and they only got buffs.
Wizard was the least changed class so far. And on that note, most of the broken things about wizards are spells. We have not seen the updates to spells that are the most broken yet.
It also depends on what you mean by busted. Lots of weapon damage builds by far out damage a straight wizard of any subclass just slinging spells. In fact most of the damage optimization builds I've seen are based around weapon attacks with maybe a sprinkling of (usually cha) caster just to cast one spell.
exactly Wizards were the best and are still best.
druids got nerfs. hardly touched when your top tier .Its nice to be king eh?
"3) You still likely are getting multiattack before everyone else at level 3 with your brown bear and whatever else, so you're still doing well for yourself."
Im guessing you haven't seen the nerf to brown bear in the phb .
hopefully they have better forms in the MM cause it's not good . the first good wild shape I have seen is the elephant and that's at level 12
Any animal that isnt reprinted can still be used. The entire mordekainens is at your disposal
Yes, and CR/3 round down beasts are weak as heck after level 5 or so. So unless they re-balanced the beasts quite a bit the moon druids abilities whether they are a buff or a nerf is moot.
"3) You still likely are getting multiattack before everyone else at level 3 with your brown bear and whatever else, so you're still doing well for yourself."
Im guessing you haven't seen the nerf to brown bear in the phb .
hopefully they have better forms in the MM cause it's not good . the first good wild shape I have seen is the elephant and that's at level 12
And while improved from the 2014 version I am not sure how well that will hang at level 12.
Moon druid is not the only druid subclass, too. The base druid to me looks so, so much better than it used to. I'd never play a moon druid anyways, so it's really difficult for me to consider it a failure. It wins for me on so many levels.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Moon druid is not the only druid subclass, too. The base druid to me looks so, so much better than it used to. I'd never play a moon druid anyways, so it's really difficult for me to consider it a failure. It wins for me on so many levels.
But moon druid is a sub class others want to play so hopefully it is not a trap. I think if you want a sub class that makes the druid focus around shapeshifting, 1 it would have been better as just a separate class. 2. Their features should have been more akin to paladin smites, as in burn spells for buffs. It could be burn spell until end of next round you are +x to hit and damage. Burn spell your strike does xd6 more damage and the enemies speed is reduced to 0. Give them enough to make it so they can live in the shapeshift forms effectively but they are burning spells to so it. As is its a weird vibe if the shapeshift is good enough then they get to really reserve their spell slots, but if its not good enough the entire premise of the sub class is a trap. Not easy to balance with the current design.
"3) You still likely are getting multiattack before everyone else at level 3 with your brown bear and whatever else, so you're still doing well for yourself."
Im guessing you haven't seen the nerf to brown bear in the phb .
hopefully they have better forms in the MM cause it's not good . the first good wild shape I have seen is the elephant and that's at level 12
i was wondering when someone would bring up the fact that not only are they nerfing the druids ability to wildshape, but they have nerfed lots of the forms youll be using .. so its like a parfait nerf! layers and layers of nerfs lol
i DM and even i think this is a lot to take away from a class. they didnt use a nerf hammer, they used a nerf cannon and blew a hole in this class and the worst part is they didnt really give you anything in return, they just took.
It kind of needed a nerf cannon. Prior to this a druid could wildshape, become a damage sponge with all those (effectively) temp hp, only to revert back to their regular form once the wildshape reached zero (granted taking the leftover damage); but before the baddie could capitalize on that, the druid could again wildshape and get back a bunch of temp hp.
It made them better damage sponges than barbarians. Add to that forms that got pact tactics and the equivalent of a free shove (prone) with every attack - they were OP and needed a hit from the nerf cannon.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
It kind of needed a nerf cannon. Prior to this a druid could wildshape, become a damage sponge with all those (effectively) temp hp, only to revert back to their regular form once the wildshape reached zero (granted taking the leftover damage); but before the baddie could capitalize on that, the druid could again wildshape and get back a bunch of temp hp.
It made them better damage sponges than barbarians. Add to that forms that got pact tactics and the equivalent of a free shove (prone) with every attack - they were OP and needed a hit from the nerf cannon.
ok Im not sure if you understand which phb your commenting on . the current druid gets temp hp the old one replaced the hit dice.
try to see the full picture when you are appraising classes.
the old moon druid at level 20 had unlimited wild shape and could sort of do what you are implying, however at most levels before ,
most shapes had much lower ac and could not infinite wild shape . so they nerfed the capstone wich is fine.
however if you build your druid tanky now you can actually be a more effective tank,
when playing a moon druid since the armor class can get as high as 18
and you can now burn a spell slot to get another wild shape
refreshing your temp hp if you want to. you can also cure wounds on your self or others.
The biggest actual nerfs to druids are gatekeeping the multiple summoning spells and not allowing enough elemental nukes or spells.
The best caster version of a druid is still inferior to valor bard who is supposed to be a jack of all trades.
one of those trades is, be better at casting then the master of primal magic,
on top of also being able to use all of their spells.
Bard is probably the best caster in the game, Druid being the worst full caster just makes it more obvious. And the Bard gets more class abilities on top of it.
The biggest actual nerfs to druids are gatekeeping the multiple summoning spells and not allowing enough elemental nukes or spells.
The best caster version of a druid is still inferior to valor bard who is supposed to be a jack of all trades.
one of those trades is, be better at casting then the master of primal magic,
on top of also being able to use all of their spells.
Bard is probably the best caster in the game, Druid being the worst full caster just makes it more obvious. And the Bard gets more class abilities on top of it.
ya I keep hearing the terrible argument "well druid is supposed to be for support" which to is mind boggling this isn't wow druids are nature themed casters they should have multiple play options. also bard destroys this whole argument because they can have everything and be better support on top of it.
I have been running some numbers on Moon Druid DPR, and using spells (NOT using Conjure Minor Elementals) and assuming you can trigger an AoO or have an enemy take damage again from a Conjure spell a majority of the time and using your best spellslots you can do over 65 DPR at 12 and assuming Mammoth is a big Elephant over 110 DPR at level 20.
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It was also not mentioned (from memory) in the playtest 1DnD rules ...
Life's hard - get a helmet!
On the other hand, Wildshape is far and away better for scouting and utility than it was before, which is kind of funny because they were trying to nerf the druid's scout ability in Playest 2.
We can turn into a spider with our full druid HP and an AC of 13+WIS, plus a bunch of temp HP. It's kind of hilarious to imagine a soldier in full armor getting his butt kicked by a small rat or rabbit, but that's a reality a lot of NPCs might face if they try to deal with the wildshaped druid like they would a normal animal.
Favours the DM?
in what? he is a player also.
this all reads like a "omg, I want to be overpowered from lvl 2 all the way to lvl 20 and I don't want to have any limitations"
Having limited forms boosts creativity because it forces you to deal with situations from sub-optimal starting positions.
Having freedom to pick whatever monster you want for summons is the same, summoning pixies that polymorph you into apes or whatever really pulls the agency away from the remainder of the party because declining that polymorph will probably make the druid who cast he conjure spell cry.
I am not sure I agree with the limits on forms, but for moon druid honestly its a moot point if they don't balance beasts and have higher Cr beasts that are functional. After level 9 you will have 1 form that you upgrade every 3 levels you can turn into that has a chance at being useful.
exactly Wizards were the best and are still best.
druids got nerfs. hardly touched when your top tier .Its nice to be king eh?
"3) You still likely are getting multiattack before everyone else at level 3 with your brown bear and whatever else, so you're still doing well for yourself."
Im guessing you haven't seen the nerf to brown bear in the phb .
hopefully they have better forms in the MM cause it's not good . the first good wild shape I have seen is the elephant and that's at level 12
Any animal that isnt reprinted can still be used. The entire mordekainens is at your disposal
Yes, and CR/3 round down beasts are weak as heck after level 5 or so. So unless they re-balanced the beasts quite a bit the moon druids abilities whether they are a buff or a nerf is moot.
And while improved from the 2014 version I am not sure how well that will hang at level 12.
Moon druid is not the only druid subclass, too. The base druid to me looks so, so much better than it used to. I'd never play a moon druid anyways, so it's really difficult for me to consider it a failure. It wins for me on so many levels.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
But moon druid is a sub class others want to play so hopefully it is not a trap. I think if you want a sub class that makes the druid focus around shapeshifting, 1 it would have been better as just a separate class. 2. Their features should have been more akin to paladin smites, as in burn spells for buffs. It could be burn spell until end of next round you are +x to hit and damage. Burn spell your strike does xd6 more damage and the enemies speed is reduced to 0. Give them enough to make it so they can live in the shapeshift forms effectively but they are burning spells to so it. As is its a weird vibe if the shapeshift is good enough then they get to really reserve their spell slots, but if its not good enough the entire premise of the sub class is a trap. Not easy to balance with the current design.
Got my 2024 PHB and no mention of metal armour prohibitions. So
Cleric 1: Warden for heavy armour
Druid 19: stack with Cleric to get max spells at 20th level.
so you can have full plate and shield and go Druid stuff.
Life's hard - get a helmet!
Sure, but is druid stuff that much better than cleric stuff?
i was wondering when someone would bring up the fact that not only are they nerfing the druids ability to wildshape, but they have nerfed lots of the forms youll be using .. so its like a parfait nerf! layers and layers of nerfs lol
i DM and even i think this is a lot to take away from a class. they didnt use a nerf hammer, they used a nerf cannon and blew a hole in this class and the worst part is they didnt really give you anything in return, they just took.
It kind of needed a nerf cannon. Prior to this a druid could wildshape, become a damage sponge with all those (effectively) temp hp, only to revert back to their regular form once the wildshape reached zero (granted taking the leftover damage); but before the baddie could capitalize on that, the druid could again wildshape and get back a bunch of temp hp.
It made them better damage sponges than barbarians. Add to that forms that got pact tactics and the equivalent of a free shove (prone) with every attack - they were OP and needed a hit from the nerf cannon.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
ok Im not sure if you understand which phb your commenting on . the current druid gets temp hp the old one replaced the hit dice.
try to see the full picture when you are appraising classes.
the old moon druid at level 20 had unlimited wild shape and could sort of do what you are implying, however at most levels before ,
most shapes had much lower ac and could not infinite wild shape . so they nerfed the capstone wich is fine.
however if you build your druid tanky now you can actually be a more effective tank,
when playing a moon druid since the armor class can get as high as 18
and you can now burn a spell slot to get another wild shape
refreshing your temp hp if you want to. you can also cure wounds on your self or others.
The biggest actual nerfs to druids are gatekeeping the multiple summoning spells and not allowing enough elemental nukes or spells.
The best caster version of a druid is still inferior to valor bard who is supposed to be a jack of all trades.
one of those trades is, be better at casting then the master of primal magic,
on top of also being able to use all of their spells.
Bard is probably the best caster in the game, Druid being the worst full caster just makes it more obvious. And the Bard gets more class abilities on top of it.
ya I keep hearing the terrible argument "well druid is supposed to be for support" which to is mind boggling this isn't wow druids are nature themed casters they should have multiple play options. also bard destroys this whole argument because they can have everything and be better support on top of it.
I have been running some numbers on Moon Druid DPR, and using spells (NOT using Conjure Minor Elementals) and assuming you can trigger an AoO or have an enemy take damage again from a Conjure spell a majority of the time and using your best spellslots you can do over 65 DPR at 12 and assuming Mammoth is a big Elephant over 110 DPR at level 20.