You gain the beast's physical stats but retain your own proficiency bonus. So suppose you have a +3 to hit with a club in your normal form, consisting of a +3 proficiency bonus and a +0 strength bonus. You then wildshape into a beast with a 16 strength. Your attacks in that form would have a +6 to hit, consisting of your +3 proficiency bonus (which you retain) and the beast's +3 strength bonus. Sometimes this will be better than the beast would have on his own, and sometimes not.
Jeremy Crawford says to use the beast's stat block on any proficiency the druid lacks. The druid lack's proficiency in Natural Weapons, so you can't replace your Proficiency Bonus with that of The Beast.
Wild Shape has the following rules that might apply to this conversation.
You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.
Then if you look at the "PROFICIENCY BONUS BY CHALLENGE RATING" on p8 of the Monster Manual.
Also if you look at many Beasts, make no mechanical sense!
A Black Bear has CR: 1/2 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and it has Str +2. All of the Black Bear's attack hit at +3, instead of +4.
A Brown Bear has CR: 1 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and it has Str +4. All of the Brown Bear's attacks hit at +5, instead of +6.
A Boar has CR: 1/4 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and has a Str +1. All of the Boar's attack hit at +3, which makes sense.
A Giant Boar has a CR: 2 so it shoulda To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and has a Str +3. All of the Boar's attack hit at +5, which makes sense.
A Mule has a CR: 1/8 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and has a Str +2. All of the Mule's attack are +2, which means the Mule isn't proficient in it's own attacks.
You gain the beast's physical stats but retain your own proficiency bonus. So suppose you have a +3 to hit with a club in your normal form, consisting of a +3 proficiency bonus and a +0 strength bonus. You then wildshape into a beast with a 16 strength. Your attacks in that form would have a +6 to hit, consisting of your +3 proficiency bonus (which you retain) and the beast's +3 strength bonus. Sometimes this will be better than the beast would have on his own, and sometimes not.
This does not sound correct. Any supporting information or reference? I was under the impression you strictly just use the beast's stat block.
I *think* FullMetalBunny is also trying to refute your comments...but I'm not sure. FMB?
This does not sound correct. Any supporting information or reference? I was under the impression you strictly just use the beast's stat block.
I *think* FullMetalBunny is also trying to refute your comments...but I'm not sure. FMB?
Yes, I am refuting his statement. Usually when I see filcatpost on a rules question I mostly don't bother adding in 2 cents, but I did today.
I threw in a little annoyance I personally have with the rules, how many Beasts don't make any mechanical sense by the rules. I think the two got mixed up.
Refutation Clarification
My point is the rules say you use the highest Proficiency Bonus IF you share the Proficiency.
Where does this rule come from that claws and fangs constitute a separate category of weapons rather than just being an unarmed strike? I can't find such a rule or any other rule that implies the existence of such a rule. If a beast's claws and fangs are simply unarmed strikes for that creature, then the Druid will have proficiency in those attacks when using them because druids are proficient in unarmed strikes.
If claws were a weapon, separate from unarmed strikes, why wouldn't the Tabaxi race description say that Tabaxi have proficiency with their claws rather than what it does say, which is that Tabaxi can use their claws to make unarmed strikes? The Alter Self spell (which a caster can use to grow claws) uses the same phrasing. And what about something like an earth elemental, which doesn't have claws or fangs or a tail, and just sort of hits things with its body? How is that a weapon separate from unarmed strikes?
And if "natural weapons" are a weapon requiring proficiency, why doesn't the same apply to natural armor? The Druid doesn't have proficiency in natural armor, so why doesn't he have disadvantage on all attacks rolls while wildshaped into a beast that has natural armor?
I'd agree that a Crawford ruling on the issue would be definitive, but the linked tweet is ambiguous and doesn't answer the question being asked of him.
Natural weapons are not unarmed strikes. Tabaxi's claws and Lizardfolk's bite are an exception, since they are both unarmed strike and natural weapons.
Elsewhere in the Druid forum there is a LONG post about this.
It always comes up when dealing with a Lizardfolk, Tabaxi, Druids, Barbarians, and Monks.
Can a Monk/Druid make unarmed strikes in WildShape? Yes, but your attacks will almost always be inferior to the Natural Weapons granted by the WildShape. To your point of the Druid having proficiency in Natural Armor. Yes, a Druid doesn't natural have proficiency in Natural Armor, but remember: "in addition to gaining those of the creature" when talking about Proficiency in WildShape. The Druid *gains* Natural Armor proficiency from Wild Shape just as she gains proficiency in whatever Natural Weapons it posses. Even with a race like Lizardfolk who come with Natural Armor, your proficiency bonus never comes into it, so it's a moot point.
Lizardfolk and Tabaxi were very carefully written to deal Unarmed Strikes.
Also remember with Armor you take the best Armor Class after figuring out all possible.
If claws were a weapon, separate from unarmed strikes, why wouldn't the Tabaxi race description say that Tabaxi have proficiency with their claws rather than what it does say, which is that Tabaxi can use their claws to make unarmed strikes?
Because if it didn't use the phrasing it uses now, they wouldn't count as an unarmed strike, and the designers specifically wanted them to count as such.
And if "natural weapons" are a weapon requiring proficiency, why doesn't the same apply to natural armor? The Druid doesn't have proficiency in natural armor, so why doesn't he have disadvantage on all attacks rolls while wildshaped into a beast that has natural armor?
Proficiency is only relevant for armor you wear. You don't wear natural armor, it's just part of your body.
"If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves strength or dexterity, and you can’t cast spells."
I would check with your gm, I know I would allow my druid players to use their proficieny bonus if it was higher than the beasts.. especially if they spend alot fo time in that form... it just does not make sense that they would not learn from their experiences whilst in the animal forms... to that end I am also working on rules for level up my druid players favourite forms. It seems to me moon druid is a great idea, but not very well thought out.
Also if you look at many Beasts, make no mechanical sense!
A Black Bear has CR: 1/2 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and it has Str +2. All of the Black Bear's attack hit at +3, instead of +4.
A Brown Bear has CR: 1 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and it has Str +4. All of the Brown Bear's attacks hit at +5, instead of +6.
A Boar has CR: 1/4 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and has a Str +1. All of the Boar's attack hit at +3, which makes sense.
A Giant Boar has a CR: 2 so it shoulda To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and has a Str +3. All of the Boar's attack hit at +5, which makes sense.
A Mule has a CR: 1/8 so it should have a To Hit Proficiency Bonus of +2 and has a Str +2. All of the Mule's attack are +2, which means the Mule isn't proficient in it's own attacks.
There's the cat, too. CR 0, so proficiency bonus of +2 and it has a Str of -4 and Dex of +2. Attacks at +0. I reported this as a bug here back in May.
And the ghoul. CR 1; Str +1, Dex +2; proficiency bonus +2. Claw at +4 (Dex and proficiency), but bite at only +2.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
That's the thing is it's not a bug, it's literally written in a way that is inconsistent with the RULES.
There are no rules for a monster's attacks. You won't find any info in the Monster Manual that says a monster's attack bonus is equal to its proficiency bonus plus their Strength modifier for melee weapon attacks or Dexterity modifier for ranged weapon attacks. What would the relevant modifier for a spell attack on a non-spellcasting monster even be?
The DMG's guidelines on "Creating Quick Monster Stats" explicitly tell you to pick the final combat statistics (HP, AC, attack bonus, damage output) based on the "Monster Statistics By Challenge Rating" table and make the rest up (even the ability scores!) as needed.
The detailed stat block creation guidelines also explicitly say you can pick those statistics based on the table, and adjust those numbers up or down as needed.
The only place where both the Monster Manual's explanation of stat blocks and the DMG's monster creation rules give a hard formula is saving throw bonuses. Those are always equal to the monster's proficiency bonus plus the relevant ability modifier.
- You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. if the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
So the Rules ARE clear here.
You GAIN the Proficiencies of the Creature. Proficiency is a mental State that increase as you level Up. You get to Add your proficiency of the attack instead of the beast IF your proficiency is Higher... You dont do it IF the creature Modifier is Higher.
That include the save DC for many Abilities such As poison or Bounce = 8+Profency+ Appropriate stat (Con poison , Str Bounce)
You gain the proficiencies of the beast regarding skills and saving throws, not the others, as explained in the sentence:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
You gain the proficiencies of the beast regarding skills and saving throws, not the others, as explained in the sentence:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
And to be super clear: you're comparing the skill or saving throw number on the beast's stat block to your proficiency bonus + the beast's ability score.
If a level 8 druid that's proficient in Stealth and has 20 Dexterity turns into a Dire Wolf, you're comparing the wolf's +4 Stealth bonus to the druid's +3 proficiency bonus plus the wolf's +2 Dexterity modifier. The druid's total is +5, not +8. That's still higher than the wolf's +4, so you use your +5 bonus on Stealth checks. If you turn into an Elephant with 9 DEX, don't expect to be amazing at Stealth just because your humanoid form has great DEX.
I really recommend listening to the Sage Advice segment on Wild Shape in the Dragon Talk podcast.
Hey all.
if I wild shape, do I use my normal attack bonus or the shape I merge into?
I.e., if I have +5, and the shape has +4,
You use the beast's attack bonus. The reason for this is that the druid is not not proficient in the beast' natural weapons (bite, claws...).
Thank you. A silly question, but nice to have it confirmed
You gain the beast's physical stats but retain your own proficiency bonus. So suppose you have a +3 to hit with a club in your normal form, consisting of a +3 proficiency bonus and a +0 strength bonus. You then wildshape into a beast with a 16 strength. Your attacks in that form would have a +6 to hit, consisting of your +3 proficiency bonus (which you retain) and the beast's +3 strength bonus. Sometimes this will be better than the beast would have on his own, and sometimes not.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/23/wildshape-with-proficiency/
Jeremy Crawford says to use the beast's stat block on any proficiency the druid lacks. The druid lack's proficiency in Natural Weapons, so you can't replace your Proficiency Bonus with that of The Beast.
Wild Shape has the following rules that might apply to this conversation.
Then if you look at the "PROFICIENCY BONUS BY CHALLENGE RATING" on p8 of the Monster Manual.
Also if you look at many Beasts, make no mechanical sense!
Druid does not have Proficiency in Bite, Claw, Tail, Hoof, Wing, etc...
Where does this rule come from that claws and fangs constitute a separate category of weapons rather than just being an unarmed strike? I can't find such a rule or any other rule that implies the existence of such a rule. If a beast's claws and fangs are simply unarmed strikes for that creature, then the Druid will have proficiency in those attacks when using them because druids are proficient in unarmed strikes.
If claws were a weapon, separate from unarmed strikes, why wouldn't the Tabaxi race description say that Tabaxi have proficiency with their claws rather than what it does say, which is that Tabaxi can use their claws to make unarmed strikes? The Alter Self spell (which a caster can use to grow claws) uses the same phrasing. And what about something like an earth elemental, which doesn't have claws or fangs or a tail, and just sort of hits things with its body? How is that a weapon separate from unarmed strikes?
And if "natural weapons" are a weapon requiring proficiency, why doesn't the same apply to natural armor? The Druid doesn't have proficiency in natural armor, so why doesn't he have disadvantage on all attacks rolls while wildshaped into a beast that has natural armor?
I'd agree that a Crawford ruling on the issue would be definitive, but the linked tweet is ambiguous and doesn't answer the question being asked of him.
Hope this tweet from JC clarifies the issue:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/702204256422498304
Natural weapons are not unarmed strikes. Tabaxi's claws and Lizardfolk's bite are an exception, since they are both unarmed strike and natural weapons.
Elsewhere in the Druid forum there is a LONG post about this.
It always comes up when dealing with a Lizardfolk, Tabaxi, Druids, Barbarians, and Monks.
Can a Monk/Druid make unarmed strikes in WildShape? Yes, but your attacks will almost always be inferior to the Natural Weapons granted by the WildShape.
To your point of the Druid having proficiency in Natural Armor. Yes, a Druid doesn't natural have proficiency in Natural Armor, but remember: "in addition to gaining those of the creature" when talking about Proficiency in WildShape. The Druid *gains* Natural Armor proficiency from Wild Shape just as she gains proficiency in whatever Natural Weapons it posses.
Even with a race like Lizardfolk who come with Natural Armor, your proficiency bonus never comes into it, so it's a moot point.
Lizardfolk and Tabaxi were very carefully written to deal Unarmed Strikes.
Also remember with Armor you take the best Armor Class after figuring out all possible.
Because if it didn't use the phrasing it uses now, they wouldn't count as an unarmed strike, and the designers specifically wanted them to count as such.
Proficiency is only relevant for armor you wear. You don't wear natural armor, it's just part of your body.
"If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves strength or dexterity, and you can’t cast spells."
I would check with your gm, I know I would allow my druid players to use their proficieny bonus if it was higher than the beasts.. especially if they spend alot fo time in that form... it just does not make sense that they would not learn from their experiences whilst in the animal forms... to that end I am also working on rules for level up my druid players favourite forms. It seems to me moon druid is a great idea, but not very well thought out.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
That's the thing is it's not a bug, it's literally written in a way that is inconsistent with the RULES.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
The detailed stat block creation guidelines also explicitly say you can pick those statistics based on the table, and adjust those numbers up or down as needed.
The only place where both the Monster Manual's explanation of stat blocks and the DMG's monster creation rules give a hard formula is saving throw bonuses. Those are always equal to the monster's proficiency bonus plus the relevant ability modifier.
- You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. if the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
So the Rules ARE clear here.
You GAIN the Proficiencies of the Creature. Proficiency is a mental State that increase as you level Up. You get to Add your proficiency of the attack instead of the beast IF your proficiency is Higher... You dont do it IF the creature Modifier is Higher.
That include the save DC for many Abilities such As poison or Bounce = 8+Profency+ Appropriate stat (Con poison , Str Bounce)
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
That’s the way I’ve always read it.
You gain the proficiencies of the beast regarding skills and saving throws, not the others, as explained in the sentence:
Here the answer from J Crawford about this.
But of course, anyone can use his/her own rule.