Look under level 5 Barbarian for example. It lists +5/-10 as +2 attack modifier. It is not +2 because that character only has a +6 to hit normally (+3 strength, +3 proficiency) because he took the GWM feat instead of an ASI. It should say a +1 on the attack modifier with -5/+10. Likewise the damage modifier is not a +16, it is a +15 (+3 strength, +2 rage, +10).
A 5th level Barbarian who took the ASI instread of GWM does have a base +7 attack and +6 damage, but the GWM Barbarian doesn't.
It is not just the GWM that is wrong, all the classes with feats are wrong.
They are using v human.... So they get GWM at level one....
So they get the ASI.... It's right.
Even if you pick another race it's firmly in favor of GWM despite that +1 difference...
He talks about Drow in the writeup.
In any case if it is V.Human than it is that race only, and I will point out that you could be a custom and start with an 18 strength AND Slasher or Piercer feat so it is still off.
If you do the math the GWM is not as big a deal as people make it out to be.
1. A 5th level fighter swinging a greatsword with GWM, GWF and 16 strength is doing 16 DPR against a 15AC opponent using -5/+10.
2. A raging Barbarian with 16 strength GWM doing it reckless is doing 27 against a 15 AC using +5/-10.
3. A Fighter using TWF, short swords with an 18 strength, piercer and TWF fighting style is doing 16 DPR vs a 15 AC opponent.
4. A raging Barbarian wielding 2 shortswords with no fighting style, 18 strength and piercer and using reckless is doing 22DPR vs a 15 AC opponent.
5. A Fighter with a 18 strength using Thrown Weapon Fighting style and throwing 3 hand axes a turn (extra attack plus bonus action) is doing 16 DPR against a 15AC.
6. A Fighter with a 16 strength using both Thrown Weapon fighting style and Two Weapon Fighting style from a feat is doing 16 DPR against a 15AC foe.
Changing the AC will change those numbers and the GWM characters will surge ahead at lower ACs but fall behind at higher ACs.
Why does your fighter in example 1 have a 16 strength with a single feat, but your TWF fighter in example 3 has a 18 str with a single feat?
Look under level 5 Barbarian for example. It lists +5/-10 as +2 attack modifier. It is not +2 because that character only has a +6 to hit normally (+3 strength, +3 proficiency) because he took the GWM feat instead of an ASI. It should say a +1 on the attack modifier with -5/+10. Likewise the damage modifier is not a +16, it is a +15 (+3 strength, +2 rage, +10).
A 5th level Barbarian who took the ASI instread of GWM does have a base +7 attack and +6 damage, but the GWM Barbarian doesn't.
It is not just the GWM that is wrong, all the classes with feats are wrong.
They are using v human.... So they get GWM at level one....
So they get the ASI.... It's right.
Even if you pick another race it's firmly in favor of GWM despite that +1 difference...
He talks about Drow in the writeup.
In any case if it is V.Human than it is that race only, and I will point out that you could be a custom and start with an 18 strength AND Slasher or Piercer feat so it is still off.
If you do the math the GWM is not as big a deal as people make it out to be.
1. A 5th level fighter swinging a greatsword with GWM, GWF and 16 strength is doing 16 DPR against a 15AC opponent using -5/+10.
2. A raging Barbarian with 16 strength GWM doing it reckless is doing 27 against a 15 AC using +5/-10.
3. A Fighter using TWF, short swords with an 18 strength, piercer and TWF fighting style is doing 16 DPR vs a 15 AC opponent.
4. A raging Barbarian wielding 2 shortswords with no fighting style, 18 strength and piercer and using reckless is doing 22DPR vs a 15 AC opponent.
5. A Fighter with a 18 strength using Thrown Weapon Fighting style and throwing 3 hand axes a turn (extra attack plus bonus action) is doing 16 DPR against a 15AC.
6. A Fighter with a 16 strength using both Thrown Weapon fighting style and Two Weapon Fighting style from a feat is doing 16 DPR against a 15AC foe.
Changing the AC will change those numbers and the GWM characters will surge ahead at lower ACs but fall behind at higher ACs.
Why does your fighter in example 1 have a 16 strength with a single feat, but your TWF fighter in example 3 has a 18 str with a single feat?
Because it's hanky panky janky math...
Plus it's just wrong as he's ignoring the fact that barbarian can just get advantage and increase the output to double his twf.
But it's pointless to try at this point so I'm unsubscribed
Why does your fighter in example 1 have a 16 strength with a single feat, but your TWF fighter in example 3 has a 18 str with a single feat?
Because Piercer is a half-feat that also provides a +1 to strength.
This means you can both take the feat at 4th level AND get an 18 strength at 4th level. You can't do that with standard array or point buy with the other two feats mentioned in that list (GWM and Fighting initiate).
Plus it's just wrong as he's ignoring the fact that barbarian can just get advantage and increase the output to double his twf.
Try again. The numbers I qouted include Barbarian advantage, that is why I said "using reckless" in the writeup. Not only do they include the advantage, uthey also include the increased chance for a crit using advantage and the extra damage that comes with that.
Try again. The numbers I qouted include Barbarian advantage, that is why I said "using reckless" in the writeup. Not only do they include the advantage, uthey also include the increased chance for a crit using advantage and the extra damage that comes with that.
Yeah man, I remember doing the numbers comparing GWM now that we have the new feats and it definitely evened out the playing field. Often everyone thinks that GWM is automatically the best decision but it loses its lustre as damage rolls on the weapon go up - because that -5 to hit is now reducing the chances of the extra Flame Tongue or Frostbrand damage from hitting or the Piercer Crits/rerolls from happening.
Then again, sometimes people just don’t really want to engage and that’s ok too. I’m hearing ya 🙂
Level 4 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Level 4 Barbarian Variant Human with Polearm Master using GWF style with a Halbred. They took Great Weapon master at level 4. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Winner at level 4: GWM build with a DPR of 21vs. TWF build of 18.5.
Summary: Not a huge difference here but GWM + PAM build is pulling ahead already at level 4. This is due to the reckless attack, chance for a full attack as a bonus action on a crit, and the extra damage from the feat.
Next comparison:
Level 5 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack. They have extra attack.
Level 5 Barbarian Variant Human with Polearm Master using GWF style with a Halbred. They took Great Weapon master at level 4. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Winner: GWM again with 33 DPR (rounded up from 32.7) vs. TWF 27 DPR (rounded up from 26.9)
This is the beginning of the end for TWF as its starting to pull away more.
The only time the TWF is making it even is when you have an AC>18....which does happen but I would prefer to have the build that makes it better more often as the CR to AC ratio is as follows:
CR
Most Types
Constructs
Dragons
Giants
Oozes
1-4
13.3
15.5
16.4
11.7
7.0
5-8
15.4
13.0
16.9
14.9
9-12
17.1
15.5
18.0
16.0
13-16
17.8
20.0
18.5
16.0
17-20
19.0
19.5
21-24
19.5
21.8
By level 9 or so you should be expecting to face AC higher than 15 on average.....and by then the GWM build is at 18 STR with 8th level ASI and could potentially have a +1 weapon.
Level 4 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Level 4 Barbarian Variant Human with Polearm Master using GWF style with a Halbred. They took Great Weapon master at level 4. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Winner at level 4: GWM build with a DPR of 21vs. TWF build of 18.5.
Yeah this is wrong. At 4th level you have 1 attack. With 16STR and GWM has +5 attack (+0GWM) and +3 damage(+13 GWM)
Mathematically your GWM Barbarian does [5.5 (weapon)+3(STR)+10(GWM)+2(rage)]*(1-14^2/20^2) (chance of hit with advantage) + (1-19^2/20^2) (chance of crit)*5.5
That is 10.99 DPR
Dual Wielder Barbarian with 2 hammers does:
Attack action [4.5 (weapons)+4(STR)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5 + Bonus action [4.5 (weapons)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5
That is 15.1575 DPR
Note, you could do better with shortswords and the fighting initiate feat and TWF fighting style instead of dual wielding feat. That would be 16.6
Level 4 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Level 4 Barbarian Variant Human with Polearm Master using GWF style with a Halbred. They took Great Weapon master at level 4. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Winner at level 4: GWM build with a DPR of 21vs. TWF build of 18.5.
Yeah this is wrong. At 4th level you have 1 attack. With 16STR and GWM has +5 attack (+0GWM) and +3 damage(+13 GWM)
Mathematically your GWM Barbarian does [5.5 (weapon)+3(STR)+10(GWM)+2(rage)]*(1-14^2/20^2) (chance of hit with advantage) + (1-19^2/20^2) (chance of crit)*5.5
That is 10.99 DPR
Dual Wielder Barbarian with 2 hammers does:
Attack action [4.5 (weapons)+4(STR)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5 + Bonus action [4.5 (weapons)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5
That is 15.1575 DPR
Note, you could do better with shortswords and the fighting initiate feat instead of dual wielding feat. That would be 16.6
Level 4 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Level 4 Barbarian Variant Human with Polearm Master using GWF style with a Halbred. They took Great Weapon master at level 4. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Winner at level 4: GWM build with a DPR of 21vs. TWF build of 18.5.
Yeah this is wrong. At 4th level you have 1 attack. With 16STR and GWM has +5 attack (+0GWM) and +3 damage(+13 GWM)
Mathematically your GWM Barbarian does [5.5 (weapon)+3(STR)+10(GWM)+2(rage)]*(1-14^2/20^2) (chance of hit with advantage) + (1-19^2/20^2) (chance of crit)*5.5
That is 10.99 DPR
Dual Wielder Barbarian with 2 hammers does:
Attack action [4.5 (weapons)+4(STR)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5 + Bonus action [4.5 (weapons)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5
That is 15.1575 DPR
Note, you could do better with shortswords and the fighting initiate feat instead of dual wielding feat. That would be 16.6
Level 4 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Level 4 Barbarian Variant Human with Polearm Master using GWF style with a Halbred. They took Great Weapon master at level 4. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Winner at level 4: GWM build with a DPR of 21vs. TWF build of 18.5.
Yeah this is wrong. At 4th level you have 1 attack. With 16STR and GWM has +5 attack (+0GWM) and +3 damage(+13 GWM)
Mathematically your GWM Barbarian does [5.5 (weapon)+3(STR)+10(GWM)+2(rage)]*(1-14^2/20^2) (chance of hit with advantage) + (1-19^2/20^2) (chance of crit)*5.5
That is 10.99 DPR
Dual Wielder Barbarian with 2 hammers does:
Attack action [4.5 (weapons)+4(STR)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5 + Bonus action [4.5 (weapons)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5
That is 15.1575 DPR
Note, you could do better with shortswords and the fighting initiate feat instead of dual wielding feat. That would be 16.6
So yes it's correct and yes TWF is behind with both comparisons.
You're forgetting the BA attack from polearm master....
Ah, you are correct. I missed that you said PAM and not just GWM. Yes the bonus action attack does make it 21 DPR with PAM.
So if you get both of these feats and restrict yourself to two weapons you are 4DPR ahead of what you would do with TWF at 4th level.
This is a corner case though, and one that is not even a fighter (which is the focus of this post and this thread)
The damage is the same or better with Battlemaster fighter thanks to the precision die.
Now other fighter Subclass don't have a reliable way to get ADV or offset the loss to attack so that's fair.
Bottom line is if you have a reliable way to get ADV (Barb) or offset attack (battlemaster) then it's no contest in favor of GWM+PAM. If you factor in an action surge round when you do get ADV it's hard for twf to keep up.
This even accounts for the loss of ASI to STR as seen in these examples.
You are also mostly tied to v human which is not always fun if want to dominate in T1.
I think that my major issue with twf is that it drops off so hard at level 4... The rest of the builds get better feats like crossbow expert/sharpshooter and GWM and polearm master.
Even the new feats don't really add much damage but versatility more so which is kinda nice if you use a different damage type in each hand.
But that takes a lot of feats (dual wield, slasher, crusher) before you address ASI.
Also it's sad that STR builds are overshadowed by DEX builds that do more damage thanks to archery style and the cbe/ss feats while being the most Single attribute dependant builds in the game.
Level 4 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Level 4 Barbarian Variant Human with Polearm Master using GWF style with a Halbred. They took Great Weapon master at level 4. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Winner at level 4: GWM build with a DPR of 21vs. TWF build of 18.5.
Yeah this is wrong. At 4th level you have 1 attack. With 16STR and GWM has +5 attack (+0GWM) and +3 damage(+13 GWM)
Mathematically your GWM Barbarian does [5.5 (weapon)+3(STR)+10(GWM)+2(rage)]*(1-14^2/20^2) (chance of hit with advantage) + (1-19^2/20^2) (chance of crit)*5.5
That is 10.99 DPR
Dual Wielder Barbarian with 2 hammers does:
Attack action [4.5 (weapons)+4(STR)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5 + Bonus action [4.5 (weapons)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5
That is 15.1575 DPR
Note, you could do better with shortswords and the fighting initiate feat instead of dual wielding feat. That would be 16.6
So yes it's correct and yes TWF is behind with both comparisons.
You're forgetting the BA attack from polearm master....
Ah, you are correct. I missed that you said PAM and not just GWM. Yes the bonus action attack does make it 21 DPR with PAM.
So if you get both of these feats and restrict yourself to two weapons you are 4DPR ahead of what you would do with TWF at 4th level.
This is a corner case though, and one that is not even a fighter (which is the focus of this post and this thread)
The damage is the same or better with Battlemaster fighter thanks to the precision die.
Now other fighter Subclass don't have a reliable way to get ADV or offset the loss to attack so that's fair.
Bottom line is if you have a reliable way to get ADV (Barb) or offset attack (battlemaster) then it's no contest in favor of GWM+PAM. If you factor in an action surge round when you do get ADV it's hard for twf to keep up.
This even accounts for the loss of ASI to STR as seen in these examples.
You are also mostly tied to v human which is not always fun if want to dominate in T1.
I think that my major issue with twf is that it drops off so hard at level 4... The rest of the builds get better feats like crossbow expert/sharpshooter and GWM and polearm master.
Even the new feats don't really add much damage but versatility more so which is kinda nice if you use a different damage type in each hand.
But that takes a lot of feats (dual wield, slasher, crusher) before you address ASI.
Also it's sad that STR builds are overshadowed by DEX builds that do more damage thanks to archery style and the cbe/ss feats while being the most Single attribute dependant builds in the game.
Battlemaster dice are extremely limited. That is not really DPR it is average damage on 4 rounds per short rest. Also if you are using precision that means you are losing 1d8+an effect on another attack which you could have used that dice on. This is particularly true if you compare it to trip attack, which will add extra damage and give advantage on the followup bonus action attack.
To actually calculate this you would need to account for the enemy's saving throw
The problem isn't that DW is bad, the problem is that DW doesn't have anything that matches GWM. This is a GWM problem rather than a DW problem. I'd argue that GWM shouldn't exist, but casters pump out so much additional...everything...that I can't do it with a straight face.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The problem isn't that DW is bad, the problem is that DW doesn't have anything that matches GWM. This is a GWM problem rather than a DW problem. I'd argue that GWM shouldn't exist, but casters pump out so much additional...everything...that I can't do it with a straight face.
That’s why I say the weapon list should be expanded and the output upped for Str based weapons. It isn’t so much “power creep,” just more of a rebalancing to make stuff like GWM less necessary.
The problem isn't that DW is bad, the problem is that DW doesn't have anything that matches GWM. This is a GWM problem rather than a DW problem. I'd argue that GWM shouldn't exist, but casters pump out so much additional...everything...that I can't do it with a straight face.
That’s why I say the weapon list should be expanded and the output upped for Str based weapons. It isn’t so much “power creep,” just more of a rebalancing to make stuff like GWM less necessary.
Agreed...STR should have the highest damage by Long shot but DEX just does almost the same amount thanks to feats and archery style
The problem isn't that DW is bad, the problem is that DW doesn't have anything that matches GWM. This is a GWM problem rather than a DW problem. I'd argue that GWM shouldn't exist, but casters pump out so much additional...everything...that I can't do it with a straight face.
That’s why I say the weapon list should be expanded and the output upped for Str based weapons. It isn’t so much “power creep,” just more of a rebalancing to make stuff like GWM less necessary.
Agreed...STR should have the highest damage by Long shot but DEX just does almost the same amount thanks to feats and archery style
Yeah, I really do wish that:
The Greataxe (and equivalents) did 2d8 damage.
The Greatsword (and equivalents) did 4d4 damage.
There was a one-handed non-finesse Arming Sword that did 1d10 to complete against the Rapier.
Some versatile weapons (including Battleaxe, and Warhammer) did 1d10(1d12); others (like the Longsword) did 2d4(2d6), and that any of them that stay in the 1d8(1d10) range would pick up finesse to make those players happy too. (Then there could actually be a difference between a spear and a trident!)
Polearms could then live in the 1d12/2d6/3d4 realm of things.
That way, everyone (including Dex builds) gets something they want and it would go a long, long, lo—ong way towards rebalancing Str builds against Dex specifically, and Martials with Casters as a whole. It’s not a hugebig change, but it makes enough of a difference to matter.
One thing that TWF has going for it is the ability to maximize effects like piercer feat reroll. Having more attacks means that you can maximize the ability to use the reroll. The PAM build either has to go with the pike and forego the bonus action or go with the spear and forego some damage, and the bonus action doesn't use piercing damage. The GWM bonus action can take advantage of it with kills or crits, but those aren't always reliable. It's a small thing and won't usually tip the balance for most players that will opt for the PAM/GWM combo usually as it's effect is minimal enough.
Another thing that I've noticed that favors TWF is the spread of magical weapons in official published adventures. This is especially true if you happen to be the only strength character in the party. This likely changes a bit based on the adventure and depends on how much the DM will adjust for the party, but I've had more adventures where I could have kitted out with two magical d8 weapons long before any heavy weapon showed up.
However, TWF will likely remain in the category of also ran until they get some additional support. Something that could scale with number of attacks like the reroll from GWF as long as you were wielding a weapon in each hand, something that allowed you to have an additional attack once per round as lling as you were wielding a weapon in each hand, or something similar would be able to help. Giving additional debuffs (that could stack with Piercer, Slasher, and Crusher) would also help TWF and retain the position of the other builds as kings of DPR while allowing TWF to give additional support.
The problem isn't that DW is bad, the problem is that DW doesn't have anything that matches GWM. This is a GWM problem rather than a DW problem. I'd argue that GWM shouldn't exist, but casters pump out so much additional...everything...that I can't do it with a straight face.
That’s why I say the weapon list should be expanded and the output upped for Str based weapons. It isn’t so much “power creep,” just more of a rebalancing to make stuff like GWM less necessary.
Agreed...STR should have the highest damage by Long shot but DEX just does almost the same amount thanks to feats and archery style
Yeah, I really do wish that:
The Greataxe (and equivalents) did 2d8 damage.
The Greatsword (and equivalents) did 4d4 damage.
There was a one-handed non-finesse Arming Sword that did 1d10 to complete against the Rapier.
Some versatile weapons (including Battleaxe, and Warhammer) did 1d10(1d12); others (like the Longsword) did 2d4(2d6), and that any of them that stay in the 1d8(1d10) range would pick up finesse to make those players happy too. (Then there could actually be a difference between a spear and a trident!)
Polearms could then live in the 1d12/2d6/3d4 realm of things.
That way, everyone (including Dex builds) gets something they want and it would go a long, long, lo—ong way towards rebalancing Str builds against Dex specifically, and Martials with Casters as a whole. It’s not a hugebig change, but it makes enough of a difference to matter.
That may balance fighter builds against eachother, but to be real that would completley wreck all enemies.
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When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
However, TWF will likely remain in the category of also ran until they get some additional support. Something that could scale with number of attacks like the reroll from GWF as long as you were wielding a weapon in each hand, something that allowed you to have an additional attack once per round as lling as you were wielding a weapon in each hand, or something similar would be able to help. Giving additional debuffs (that could stack with Piercer, Slasher, and Crusher) would also help TWF and retain the position of the other builds as kings of DPR while allowing TWF to give additional support.
One thought I had was to was to add an additional feature to the Dual Wielder feat along the lines of giving an ability to riposte. Something along the lines of "If an enemy misses you with a melee weapon attack, and both your weapons are light, you may use your Reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacker that missed you." I like the idea of requiring light weapons as you need to attack as a Reaction, harder to do with heavy weapons. If this were too powerful, perhaps the attack would be with Disadvantage. I recognize that this could buff Rogues considerably, but only those that are willing to risk getting hit in the first place.
The easiest way to look at twf as a overall choice is to remember that it has an inverse relationship with opportunity costs improving it. The less you spend the better value it has. So TFW isn't bad for fighters but spending a fighter style, feat, and potentially limit your subclass to one with little bonus action uses steadily gets worse with every one you take.
It gets better the more on hit effects you can gain. So classes without a direct line for twf leverage bit better oddly. Barbarian, rouge, paladin, and oddly low level *insert any class* because more attacks and open action economy can be worth the risk sometimes to go mix it up in the melee.
So for fighters don't look at twf as a damage option as much as more chances to land riders like maneuvers or have multiple ranges of threat with whip/thrown weapon and whatever.
Honestly the best way to look at it....it can be "alright" but it takes a bit of investment (including your own action economy) to get there.
My home fix to to add the off-hand attack to the main attack action. At least then you have your BA free and the style becomes more friendly to more builds.
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Why does your fighter in example 1 have a 16 strength with a single feat, but your TWF fighter in example 3 has a 18 str with a single feat?
Because it's hanky panky janky math...
Plus it's just wrong as he's ignoring the fact that barbarian can just get advantage and increase the output to double his twf.
But it's pointless to try at this point so I'm unsubscribed
Because Piercer is a half-feat that also provides a +1 to strength.
This means you can both take the feat at 4th level AND get an 18 strength at 4th level. You can't do that with standard array or point buy with the other two feats mentioned in that list (GWM and Fighting initiate).
Try again. The numbers I qouted include Barbarian advantage, that is why I said "using reckless" in the writeup. Not only do they include the advantage, uthey also include the increased chance for a crit using advantage and the extra damage that comes with that.
Yeah man, I remember doing the numbers comparing GWM now that we have the new feats and it definitely evened out the playing field. Often everyone thinks that GWM is automatically the best decision but it loses its lustre as damage rolls on the weapon go up - because that -5 to hit is now reducing the chances of the extra Flame Tongue or Frostbrand damage from hitting or the Piercer Crits/rerolls from happening.
Then again, sometimes people just don’t really want to engage and that’s ok too. I’m hearing ya 🙂
I am not sure how y'all are doing your math but I would check it again...
So I have two builds here...both are attacking an enemy of AC 15 which is appropriate for the level.
Source data for builds: https://imgur.com/a/Jsh0Ydo
Level 4 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack.
Summary: Not a huge difference here but GWM + PAM build is pulling ahead already at level 4. This is due to the reckless attack, chance for a full attack as a bonus action on a crit, and the extra damage from the feat.
Next comparison:
Level 5 Barbarian- Variant Human with Dual Wielder using TWF with two warhammers. They took a +2 to STR at level 4 to bring their STR score to 18. They are raging and using reckless attack. They have extra attack.
This is the beginning of the end for TWF as its starting to pull away more.
The only time the TWF is making it even is when you have an AC>18....which does happen but I would prefer to have the build that makes it better more often as the CR to AC ratio is as follows:
By level 9 or so you should be expecting to face AC higher than 15 on average.....and by then the GWM build is at 18 STR with 8th level ASI and could potentially have a +1 weapon.
Yeah this is wrong. At 4th level you have 1 attack. With 16STR and GWM has +5 attack (+0GWM) and +3 damage(+13 GWM)
Mathematically your GWM Barbarian does [5.5 (weapon)+3(STR)+10(GWM)+2(rage)]*(1-14^2/20^2) (chance of hit with advantage) + (1-19^2/20^2) (chance of crit)*5.5
That is 10.99 DPR
Dual Wielder Barbarian with 2 hammers does:
Attack action [4.5 (weapons)+4(STR)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5 + Bonus action [4.5 (weapons)+2(rage)]*(1-8^2/20^2)(chance of hitting with advantage)+(1-19^2/20^2)(chance of crit with advantage)*4.5
That is 15.1575 DPR
Note, you could do better with shortswords and the fighting initiate feat and TWF fighting style instead of dual wielding feat. That would be 16.6
Math is correct.
Using DPR calculator: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/dp7ygq/update_dpr_calculator_with_full_transparency/
So yes it's correct and yes TWF is behind with both comparisons.
You're forgetting the BA attack from polearm master.... And the crit BA attack potential from GWM.
I see where you keep getting it wrong as you aren't using all the abilities of the GWM build.
Ah, you are correct. I missed that you said PAM and not just GWM. Yes the bonus action attack does make it 21 DPR with PAM.
So if you get both of these feats and restrict yourself to two weapons you are 4DPR ahead of what you would do with TWF at 4th level.
This is a corner case though, and one that is not even a fighter (which is the focus of this post and this thread)
The damage is the same or better with Battlemaster fighter thanks to the precision die.
Now other fighter Subclass don't have a reliable way to get ADV or offset the loss to attack so that's fair.
Bottom line is if you have a reliable way to get ADV (Barb) or offset attack (battlemaster) then it's no contest in favor of GWM+PAM. If you factor in an action surge round when you do get ADV it's hard for twf to keep up.
This even accounts for the loss of ASI to STR as seen in these examples.
You are also mostly tied to v human which is not always fun if want to dominate in T1.
I think that my major issue with twf is that it drops off so hard at level 4... The rest of the builds get better feats like crossbow expert/sharpshooter and GWM and polearm master.
Even the new feats don't really add much damage but versatility more so which is kinda nice if you use a different damage type in each hand.
But that takes a lot of feats (dual wield, slasher, crusher) before you address ASI.
Also it's sad that STR builds are overshadowed by DEX builds that do more damage thanks to archery style and the cbe/ss feats while being the most Single attribute dependant builds in the game.
Battlemaster dice are extremely limited. That is not really DPR it is average damage on 4 rounds per short rest. Also if you are using precision that means you are losing 1d8+an effect on another attack which you could have used that dice on. This is particularly true if you compare it to trip attack, which will add extra damage and give advantage on the followup bonus action attack.
To actually calculate this you would need to account for the enemy's saving throw
The problem isn't that DW is bad, the problem is that DW doesn't have anything that matches GWM. This is a GWM problem rather than a DW problem. I'd argue that GWM shouldn't exist, but casters pump out so much additional...everything...that I can't do it with a straight face.
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That’s why I say the weapon list should be expanded and the output upped for Str based weapons. It isn’t so much “power creep,” just more of a rebalancing to make stuff like GWM less necessary.
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Agreed...STR should have the highest damage by Long shot but DEX just does almost the same amount thanks to feats and archery style
Yeah, I really do wish that:
That way, everyone (including Dex builds) gets something they want and it would go a long, long, lo—ong way towards rebalancing Str builds against Dex specifically, and Martials with Casters as a whole. It’s not a hugebig change, but it makes enough of a difference to matter.
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One thing that TWF has going for it is the ability to maximize effects like piercer feat reroll. Having more attacks means that you can maximize the ability to use the reroll. The PAM build either has to go with the pike and forego the bonus action or go with the spear and forego some damage, and the bonus action doesn't use piercing damage. The GWM bonus action can take advantage of it with kills or crits, but those aren't always reliable. It's a small thing and won't usually tip the balance for most players that will opt for the PAM/GWM combo usually as it's effect is minimal enough.
Another thing that I've noticed that favors TWF is the spread of magical weapons in official published adventures. This is especially true if you happen to be the only strength character in the party. This likely changes a bit based on the adventure and depends on how much the DM will adjust for the party, but I've had more adventures where I could have kitted out with two magical d8 weapons long before any heavy weapon showed up.
However, TWF will likely remain in the category of also ran until they get some additional support. Something that could scale with number of attacks like the reroll from GWF as long as you were wielding a weapon in each hand, something that allowed you to have an additional attack once per round as lling as you were wielding a weapon in each hand, or something similar would be able to help. Giving additional debuffs (that could stack with Piercer, Slasher, and Crusher) would also help TWF and retain the position of the other builds as kings of DPR while allowing TWF to give additional support.
That may balance fighter builds against eachother, but to be real that would completley wreck all enemies.
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I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
One thought I had was to was to add an additional feature to the Dual Wielder feat along the lines of giving an ability to riposte. Something along the lines of "If an enemy misses you with a melee weapon attack, and both your weapons are light, you may use your Reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacker that missed you." I like the idea of requiring light weapons as you need to attack as a Reaction, harder to do with heavy weapons. If this were too powerful, perhaps the attack would be with Disadvantage. I recognize that this could buff Rogues considerably, but only those that are willing to risk getting hit in the first place.
Honestly the best way to look at it....it can be "alright" but it takes a bit of investment (including your own action economy) to get there.
My home fix to to add the off-hand attack to the main attack action. At least then you have your BA free and the style becomes more friendly to more builds.