The issue is that shapechange is a temporary buff, while true polymorph is permament.
If clone clones you exactly as it is, and it clones the spell, why wouldn't it clone the other part of the spell? Specifically, the 1-hour duration part.
As for the rock example, how I'd say it works if that it transforms into a living creature, you clone it, then say the rock creature dies and goes into the clone. It stays as the living creature it was when the spell was activated, but if someone then were to cast Dispel Magic, it'd still turn back into a rock, because despite being a clone it's still subject to the limitations of the True Polymorph spell.
edit: note this discussion would also apply to all other temporary buffs, such as Haste, Aid, or Bless.
The issue is that shapechange is a temporary buff, while true polymorph is permament.
If clone clones you exactly as it is, and it clones the spell, why wouldn't it clone the other part of the spell? Specifically, the 1-hour duration part.
As for the rock example, how I'd say it works if that it transforms into a living creature, you clone it, then say the rock creature dies and goes into the clone. It stays as the living creature it was when the spell was activated, but if someone then were to cast Dispel Magic, it'd still turn back into a rock, because despite being a clone it's still subject to the limitations of the True Polymorph spell.
edit: note this discussion would also apply to all other temporary buffs, such as Haste, Aid, or Bless.
Correct
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The issue is that shapechange is a temporary buff, while true polymorph is permament.
If clone clones you exactly as it is, and it clones the spell, why wouldn't it clone the other part of the spell? Specifically, the 1-hour duration part.
As for the rock example, how I'd say it works if that it transforms into a living creature, you clone it, then say the rock creature dies and goes into the clone. It stays as the living creature it was when the spell was activated, but if someone then were to cast Dispel Magic, it'd still turn back into a rock, because despite being a clone it's still subject to the limitations of the True Polymorph spell.
edit: note this discussion would also apply to all other temporary buffs, such as Haste, Aid, or Bless.
Answer: When the wizard Clones himself he is cloning the altered form not the spell just the altered form made by the spell's effect. So your not copying the spell as for other spell they don't change your character stats only buff them.
I see the durations and limitations of whatever buffs you have cast on yourself to a part of your altered self.
If you do not, then well we can't really discuss any further because there's no RAW backing either side up on this (or even any RAW proving that buffs would transfer onto a clone anyways)
The issue is that shapechange is a temporary buff, while true polymorph is permament.
If clone clones you exactly as it is, and it clones the spell, why wouldn't it clone the other part of the spell? Specifically, the 1-hour duration part.
As for the rock example, how I'd say it works if that it transforms into a living creature, you clone it, then say the rock creature dies and goes into the clone. It stays as the living creature it was when the spell was activated, but if someone then were to cast Dispel Magic, it'd still turn back into a rock, because despite being a clone it's still subject to the limitations of the True Polymorph spell.
edit: note this discussion would also apply to all other temporary buffs, such as Haste, Aid, or Bless.
Answer: When the wizard Clones himself he is cloning the altered form not the spell just the altered form made by the spell's effect. So your not copying the spell as for other spell they don't change your character stats only buff them.
I know how I’d rule it. The shapechange would be on the clone. But for the usual duration of shapechange. Clones don’t mature in hours, they mature in months. It wears off long before it matures and you’re left with just you for the clone.
Also, the majority of forms you’d want to take with shapechange (but not all of them, red abishai and death knight anyone?) are too big for clone and magic aura doesn’t disguise the size so if you say “it copies the form” then you are more limited it your choice of forms.
But as 4yulming4 said, there is no RAW backing either side up, and nobody else has tried this hard to do it that sage advice would even consider ruling on it.
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Another thing I’d rule on clone would be allowing it to affect small humanoids so halflings and gnomes can use it too. The restriction of medium without any “or smaller” feels like an oversight.
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Another thing I’d rule on clone would be allowing it to affect small humanoids so halflings and gnomes can use it too. The restriction of medium without any “or smaller” feels like an oversight.
Answer: I don't know why your looking at an older version of the spell but that version was errata'd like a year ago and reads as "This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death," so no medium creature requirement anymore. See for yourself: Clone.
Another thing I’d rule on clone would be allowing it to affect small humanoids so halflings and gnomes can use it too. The restriction of medium without any “or smaller” feels like an oversight.
Answer: I don't know why your looking at an older version of the spell but that version was errata'd like a year ago and reads as "This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death," so no medium creature requirement anymore. See for yourself: Clone.
I guess I was looking at an older version. I have a physical copy of the PHB, so I need to look for errata to find it. Ignore everything I said about size then.
Another thing I’d rule on clone would be allowing it to affect small humanoids so halflings and gnomes can use it too. The restriction of medium without any “or smaller” feels like an oversight.
Answer: I don't know why your looking at an older version of the spell but that version was errata'd like a year ago and reads as "This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death," so no medium creature requirement anymore. See for yourself: Clone.
I guess I was looking at an older version. I have a physical copy of the PHB, so I need to look for errata to find it.
That is the problem with hard copies of the DnD official books (not to mention when something becomes an "unofficial" book, that previously was a RAW book). ;)
I like having a hard copy of my books, but they don't change with errata.
Sometimes that’s a good thing so you can access the version of an item your group likes more, but the errata being available doesn’t mean every group will look for it and find it. Some perk, some drawback.
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There is nothing in the spell Shapchange which says that you become the creature being shapechanged into. In fact, you very clearly don't considering that you keep your Int, Wis, and Cha.
Since you aren't becoming the creature, it makes no sense that a clone would become the new creature.
There is nothing in the spell Shapchange which says that you become the creature being shapechanged into. In fact, you very clearly don't considering that you keep your Int, Wis, and Cha.
Since you aren't becoming the creature, it makes no sense that a clone would become the new creature.
It is temporary. I don’t know or care whether or not the buff initially applies to the clone, but I know that it would expire before the clone matures.
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There is nothing in the spell Shapchange which says that you become the creature being shapechanged into. In fact, you very clearly don't considering that you keep your Int, Wis, and Cha.
Since you aren't becoming the creature, it makes no sense that a clone would become the new creature.
It is temporary. I don’t know or care whether or not the buff initially applies to the clone, but I know that it would expire before the clone matures.
Answer: I think you have a misconception on how I'm using the Clone to do this.
First of all I am NOT cloning the spell, I am duplicating (cloning) the form of the creature made by the spell's effect not the spell. That is what is happening. Nowhere do I say am I copying the spell all I'm saying is that Clone duplicates the creature and if that creature is in a different form it would instead duplicate that form and make that creature as if it was always like that.
Mind you I am almost exclusively arguing that only physical alterations to your character's form is what can be duplicated as seen by many of the Transmutation spells that specifically alter your physical form. So I'm not arguing that you can suddenly cast Haste and clone yourself to have Haste forever because Haste doesn't affect your form as certain transformation spells would do. Here are the quotes from some Transmutation spells and the spell Clone that I want to draw attention to so you get what I'm trying to say specifically that they change your form to a different creature:
"This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death." - Clone
"This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form." - Polymorph, Transmutation
"You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature)." - True Polymorph, Transmutation
"You assume the form of a different creature for the duration." - Shapechange, Transmutation
"You assume a different form." - Alter Self, Transmutation
Anyways that all I want to say on this subject for now but I just wanted to make my position VERY clear but do tell if I didn't address something or missed something in my reply.
My position on the topic is the same as it was in the previous post.
There is no RAW describing what a form is. Therefore, I think the best conclusion to this discussion is just agreeing to disagree.
In the specific white room this thread is mainly based off of none of this even matters anyways since clone takes months to mature and that seems pretty solidly in the "prep" category. And even if you did allow true polymorph nonsense, the traditional Magic Jar approach (the one that involves holding the gem as a necklace) works perfectly fine.
Or just use Shapechange and accept having to use your concentration. Most of the cheese forms (like rakshasa) don't really require concentration anyways.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
My position on the topic is the same as it was in the previous post.
There is no RAW describing what a form is. Therefore, I think the best conclusion to this discussion is just agreeing to disagree.
In the specific white room this thread is mainly based off of none of this even matters anyways since clone takes months to mature and that seems pretty solidly in the "prep" category. And even if you did allow true polymorph nonsense, the traditional Magic Jar approach (the one that involves holding the gem as a necklace) works perfectly fine.
Or just use Shapechange and accept having to use your concentration. Most of the cheese forms (like rakshasa) don't really require concentration anyways.
Answer: I agree we can agree to disagree but I'm just saying... I do think it works by RAW but whatever I'm not going to have another argument like I did with Wren on the topic of Wish over something like this.
And I do agree that even if we banned all of the shenanigans I still think the wizard can still (if he gets a turn) win the battle against the fighter.
My position on the topic is the same as it was in the previous post.
There is no RAW describing what a form is. Therefore, I think the best conclusion to this discussion is just agreeing to disagree.
In the specific white room this thread is mainly based off of none of this even matters anyways since clone takes months to mature and that seems pretty solidly in the "prep" category. And even if you did allow true polymorph nonsense, the traditional Magic Jar approach (the one that involves holding the gem as a necklace) works perfectly fine.
Or just use Shapechange and accept having to use your concentration. Most of the cheese forms (like rakshasa) don't really require concentration anyways.
Answer: I agree we can agree to disagree but I'm just saying... I do think it works by RAW but whatever I'm not going to have another argument like I did with Wren on the topic of Wish over something like this.
And I do agree that even if we banned all of the shenanigans I still think the wizard can still (if he gets a turn) win the battle against the fighter.
Correct. Just cast shapechange/true polymorph normally, you likely win. I don’t think the magic jar thing is RAW but as you said, agree to disagree.
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Besides, it's not vague wording, possess in this context means to have complete power and control over something, which is not the same as to become something (I possess and control a car, it doesn't mean I am a car. When controlling it, for all intents and purposes we move as one, but I'm still not a car). That is the crux of the issue, but there are further reasons it won't work RAW, which is also why Death Ward and destroying the jar won't work.
Answer: Hey that one heck of a false equivalency if I ever saw one compounded by you twisting the definition of possession as well. 1) Possession refers to the act of a spirit or in this case a soul inhabiting/occupying a body, while to possess refers to ownership/property of an person place or thing/object. 2) But were both techniqually right in that both definitions are a way to describe the same word but the difference between the two definitions is that yours doesn't take into context the situation while the other (mine) does as it refers to the spirit inhabiting the creature's body as opposed to yours which refers to just owning an person place or thing/object... so yeah...
Do you actually know what a false equivalency is? I don't think so, seeing as you accuse me of using one by actually using one.
Possess in this case of Magic Jar means exactly what I said, 'to have complete power and control over something'. Want proof? Here's the Oxford dictionary definition of possess for exactly the context we are talking about -
(of a demon or spirit, especially an evil one) have complete power over (someone) and be manifested through their speech or actions. "she was possessed by the Devil"
You claiming that possess and possession mean different things is pure nonsense. Possession is based on the meaning of to possess, which in turn is based on the context in which it is used. Don't take my word for it, let's see what definition should apply to the RAW for Magic Jar -
The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body.
You can attempt to possess any humanoid....
So the caster is attempting to own the target's body and make it their property? Or are they attempting to have complete power over someone and be manifested through their speech or actions? In fact, don't see any mention of the word possession at all, so by using your definition of to possess, Magic Jar doesn't involve a spirit entering a body, it's all about a spirit owning a body...
Doesn't matter, because either way they do not become target's body , they either own it or have complete power over it, either of which give them control over it. Don't believe me? Here's the RAW -
Once you possess a creature's body, you control it.
While possessing a body, you can use your action to return from the host body to the container if it is within 100 feet of you, returning the host creature's soul to its body. If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies
Look at the wording used. Possess. Control. Host. Notice no mention of transform, new forms or anything like that, which are the words used by Polymorph and Shapechange. Looks like my example was right, to possess something isn't to be something, especially as you can possess a car as a spirit, but it still doesn't make the spirit a car. So, yeah, as you say.
That's why Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar, the host body is never your body, you are never the original creature cloned. What's more, killing the host body to get clone to activate doesn't work either.
If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.
Simply put (which you even state later), you die means your soul and your body die. To prevent your death, you'd need a clone of your body, because that's what makes up the you that dies, not you in the creature's body. Furthermore, you've actually cloned the host body, which is the creature's body. They can use the clone to cheat death because it's a duplicate of their body. You can't even claim you can die first and take the duplicate, RAW means whilst they die, you're busy trying to get back to the container. You can't even claim that you don't try if you aren't in range, the sequence of words 'must make a check, if check succeeds return if in range' prevents this. The range check only occurs after you succeed at the saving through. Can you voluntarily fail the check? Probably not, as must is a specific rule that overrides the general rule, plus you still need to make a check to fail it.
If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. <= The material component to the spell has been destroyed. Spell ends because one of it's components that it requires to function no longer exists. Thus, caster is forced to leave host body to return their body. In order to retain possession, the spell needs to be active. In this case, that'll be the spell that ended and is no longer active because it's required component was destroyed. Furthermore, the act of returning to your point of origin means you leave where you were, irrespective of whether or not you can actually get back to where you originally started from.
While your soul inhabits the container, you are aware of your surroundings as if you were in the container's space. You can't move or use reactions. The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body. <= To possess a creature, the caster needs to be in the jar. Once they have left the host body, the can't possess it unless that are in the jar. In this case, that'll be the destroyed jar that the caster isn't in because it no longer exists.
If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. <= The caster dies because they aren't in a body and they can't return to their body. Death Ward would only prevent this death if it was cast on the caster's body, because it stops the touched creature from dying (even that is debatable, RAW as it stops effects of spells and this is an effect of the spell being finished, not the spell itself). It does not provide the caster with the ability to possess a creature that was due to a spell that is no longer in effect that requires a component that no longer exists.
If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies. <= Creature only dies if it can't return to it's body. Not be able to return does not stop the caster from being forced to leave the host body, nor does it allow them to possess the body once they have left. Furthermore, if a creature dies, it's body and soul both die, as one cannot live without the other (The above plus If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies... In order to for a creature to be alive, the body needs to be alive and the soul needs to be able to return to it if it has left). A caster can't possess a dead creature, because when the body dies, the caster is forced to leave.
Answer: Honestly I've read this part multiple times and it just makes no sense to me (sorry) but anyways it looks like your trying to argue that... I don't even wanna try it's all over the place... so instead I'll just show you why my double casting of Magic Jar works by going through each part of the last paragraph
"If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die."
When the wizard breaks the Jar #1 in the strategy the wizard is already in his own body so it's fine and his body isn't dead it was only ever catatonic for a bit so he doesn't die.
"If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet. Otherwise, that creature dies."
As for this part, since in the strategy the wizard moves the creature away so that it can't return back o it's body it dies as normal and you are fine.
now as for the people who say "but when you use your second Magic Jar the wizard's main body doesn't have a soul to swap" to that I say True Polymorph. The reason the wizard would cast True Polymorph on his body is to make his body into some random humanoid creature so you can swap it's soul into Jar #2. After doing that you have the True Polymorph cancelled and you return to your catatonic body and while you are essentially in a coma your Simulacrum goes and moves Jar #2 away and smashes it destroying the soul and makin you return to the body you cast the second Magic Jar spell on. As such you are now in your new body permanently.
So if it was too confusing as to what happened I'll say it again but what happened is that the original body was transformed into a form with a soul and that soul was used to swap again with Magic Jar then the transformation was cancelled so the wizard reverted to a essentially comatose (catatonic) body and has his simulacrum move away and break Jar #2 as to make the wizard return to the body he cast the second Magic Jar on. I don't know if that made it easier to understand but it's here if it does help.
Another false equivalency, you're not even making any attempt address anything, you are attacking my style and then repeating that it'll work with another example of ignoring RAW.
Two Magic Jars doesn't work.
You are moving container #1 away from the creature's body to destroy it so the creature dies because it's soul cannot get back to it's body. You even state this 'the wizard moves the creature away so that it can't return back to it's body it dies as normal and you are fine'. This is correct, if a soul can't return to it's body, it dies, both body and soul. This applies to both the creature and the caster.
If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die.
So you are destroying container #2 to return the the creature's body, which is dead as a result of destroying container #1. Doesn't work. RAW, you can't return to a dead body. That actually doesn't matter, because at no point does the creature's body become your body. In fact, it's referred to as the host body to make it clear that it is different to your body. Returning to the body you are in at the time of casting isn't mentioned either. It says your soul immediately returns toyour body. Even if it did say something different, it wouldn't matter because the body you are attempting to return to is dead at this point and you can't return to a dead body, you die instead. Not that you can avoid returning to your body, which I'll deal with in a bit, but even if you could, you'd then not leave your body for the creature's. Having a soul or not in container #2 doesn't change these facts. (That's before we even get to True Polymorph and souls, which is solely dependent the claim the your body is no longer your body).
What Death Ward would do is stop the host body dying whilst the caster was possessing it.
Answer:
1) Cast Magic Jar on yourself, your body falls catatonic, and your soul enters Jar #1.
2) You project your soul and possess a humanoid. The humanoid’s soul enters Jar #1.
3) You cast Death Ward on yourself, to negate an effect that would instantly kill you.
4) You move your catatonic body 100ft away from you. You destroy Jar #1.
5) You are farther than 100ft from your body you die. Death Ward negates it. The Magic Jar spell ends.
6) Magic Jar is over, you are not dead, your body was to far away, your soul is unable attempt to return your body*
7) That means your soul has to be in the humanoid body it makes no sense for it to be anywhere else.
8) You are now that creature permanently.
*The reason why your soul doesn't attempt to return is because while it is said the soul immediately returns that is directly contradicted by the fact that the soul is given a range at which it attempts to return to the body that is 100ft (see bolded) and that is why it dies because it doesn't have the needed range to attempt to even begin the journey so you just die. This is supported by the "or" separating the two clauses and the comma before the "you die." Another point that shows that this is the correct interpretation of the rules (RAW) is the next sentence after that (underlined) shows that for the soul to attempt to return the to its body the body must be within 100ft just like before. So what I'm trying to say is that the soul knows it can't make the distance so you instead die but due to Death Ward that instance of death is avoided and since the Magic Jar spell ends your soul is no longer under the influence of the Magic Jar's effect to kill you so you instead live in your new humanoid body.
"If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die. If another creature's soul is in the container when it is destroyed, the creature's soul returns to its body if the body is alive and within 100 feet."
Sorry, but the argument for staying in the host body is just wrong.
The simple fact of the matter is that to retain possession of the body, you need Magic Jar to be active, and you need a container. When it ends, you can't stay in the host body, because that's an effect of the spell and doesn't persist once the spell has ended. Your soul leaves as part of the attempt to return and tries to return to you body, but it can't, so you die. Death Ward does not change the fact that the spell has ended and there is no longer a container, both of which are required for possession.
In fact, you even made the case earlier for it not working. For your explanation for two jars to work, it's dependant upon the creature (body and soul) dying because it can't get to it's body because it's to far away. The same rule applies to the caster soul and body, which you confirmed with the Death Ward strategy. You die means your body and soul dies. Creature dies means it's body and soul dies. You not being able to return to your body does not kill the creature's body, only yours. The creature only dies if it's soul is too far away. As written, to prevent your death you'd need to ward your body, because that what makes you and you are what dies.
In fact, RAW, there is never any 'your soul/creature body' death effect for Death Ward to prevent, because at no point does your soul and the creature's body form a creature as it's never your body, it's always one that you are in and control. I'd suggest that perhaps Death Ward would prevent the creature from dying due to the death of it's body (the body death would be stopped) as that'd be in line with warding your body.
Same way two Magic Jar spells doesn't work because 1) at no point is the host body your body, and 2) if the creature's soul can't return to it's body, it dies and you can't return to a dead body (not withstanding the basic logic errors in the two jars argument that stop it dead with regard to body at casting and spells ending).
Answer: Magic Jar, Range: self. The first sentence is: "Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container you used for the spell's material component."
Now if your going to tell me that when you are possessing a creature with with Magic Jar that spells with a range of self don't work just to make this spell combo not work then I honestly don't know what to say to you... as for the other stuff I think I've already addressed them.
Anyways do tell if I missed something, because I honestly took so much time on this post I can barely remember what I did/didn't address. Sorry this is such a complex topic.
You missed the point completely on this, at no point have I mentioned range of spells other than for causing death, but it still doesn't stop you making yet another false equivalency. I've outlined why this doesn't work above.
On a positive note, I do think the boring 'hide the body and container' strategy works fine, just don't go near anything that would dispel the Magic Jar, otherwise you'd probably have a very angry dragon to deal with...
The jar AND the imprisonment would both need to be dispelled. But the imprisoning of self still involves some form of grey area in the question if do you make a wisdom save when your catatonic body that you want imprisoned is imprisoned by you. I’d probably say no, but that isn’t RAW.
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Getting back to the original question of whether, in a white room, a fighter can beat a wizard, there are three solutions saying "no" and two of those are heavily disputed (they may violate the rules of the game).
Let's see if there is another solution. I say, let's go down the list of official wizard schools, one by one, and see
Abjurer
Conjuror
Diviner - yes*
Enchanter
Evoker
Illusionist - yes
Transmuter
War Fighter
Bladesinging
Order of the Scribes
* the Diviner should be easy. She'll have the Lucky feat. She'll use a high diviner die to ensure that she goes first in initiative and cast a spell, maybe (but not necessarily) Hold Person on the Fighter, using a low diviner die to ensure the Fighter fails.
Also, abjurer yes. Way better than illusion. Abjurers can simply have their ward for +45 hp, allowing them to tank most nova-type fighters, which is most viable fighters.
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The issue is that shapechange is a temporary buff, while true polymorph is permament.
If clone clones you exactly as it is, and it clones the spell, why wouldn't it clone the other part of the spell? Specifically, the 1-hour duration part.
As for the rock example, how I'd say it works if that it transforms into a living creature, you clone it, then say the rock creature dies and goes into the clone. It stays as the living creature it was when the spell was activated, but if someone then were to cast Dispel Magic, it'd still turn back into a rock, because despite being a clone it's still subject to the limitations of the True Polymorph spell.
edit: note this discussion would also apply to all other temporary buffs, such as Haste, Aid, or Bless.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Correct
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Answer: When the wizard Clones himself he is cloning the altered form not the spell just the altered form made by the spell's effect. So your not copying the spell as for other spell they don't change your character stats only buff them.
I see the durations and limitations of whatever buffs you have cast on yourself to a part of your altered self.
If you do not, then well we can't really discuss any further because there's no RAW backing either side up on this (or even any RAW proving that buffs would transfer onto a clone anyways)
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I know how I’d rule it. The shapechange would be on the clone. But for the usual duration of shapechange. Clones don’t mature in hours, they mature in months. It wears off long before it matures and you’re left with just you for the clone.
Also, the majority of forms you’d want to take with shapechange (but not all of them, red abishai and death knight anyone?) are too big for clone and magic aura doesn’t disguise the size so if you say “it copies the form” then you are more limited it your choice of forms.
But as 4yulming4 said, there is no RAW backing either side up, and nobody else has tried this hard to do it that sage advice would even consider ruling on it.
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Another thing I’d rule on clone would be allowing it to affect small humanoids so halflings and gnomes can use it too. The restriction of medium without any “or smaller” feels like an oversight.
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Answer: I don't know why your looking at an older version of the spell but that version was errata'd like a year ago and reads as "This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death," so no medium creature requirement anymore. See for yourself: Clone.
I guess I was looking at an older version. I have a physical copy of the PHB, so I need to look for errata to find it. Ignore everything I said about size then.
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That is the problem with hard copies of the DnD official books (not to mention when something becomes an "unofficial" book, that previously was a RAW book). ;)
I like having a hard copy of my books, but they don't change with errata.
Sometimes that’s a good thing so you can access the version of an item your group likes more, but the errata being available doesn’t mean every group will look for it and find it. Some perk, some drawback.
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There is nothing in the spell Shapchange which says that you become the creature being shapechanged into. In fact, you very clearly don't considering that you keep your Int, Wis, and Cha.
Since you aren't becoming the creature, it makes no sense that a clone would become the new creature.
It is temporary. I don’t know or care whether or not the buff initially applies to the clone, but I know that it would expire before the clone matures.
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Answer: I think you have a misconception on how I'm using the Clone to do this.
First of all I am NOT cloning the spell, I am duplicating (cloning) the form of the creature made by the spell's effect not the spell. That is what is happening. Nowhere do I say am I copying the spell all I'm saying is that Clone duplicates the creature and if that creature is in a different form it would instead duplicate that form and make that creature as if it was always like that.
Mind you I am almost exclusively arguing that only physical alterations to your character's form is what can be duplicated as seen by many of the Transmutation spells that specifically alter your physical form. So I'm not arguing that you can suddenly cast Haste and clone yourself to have Haste forever because Haste doesn't affect your form as certain transformation spells would do. Here are the quotes from some Transmutation spells and the spell Clone that I want to draw attention to so you get what I'm trying to say specifically that they change your form to a different creature:
"This spell grows an inert duplicate of a living creature as a safeguard against death." - Clone
"This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form." - Polymorph, Transmutation
"You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into a nonmagical object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature)." - True Polymorph, Transmutation
"You assume the form of a different creature for the duration." - Shapechange, Transmutation
"You assume a different form." - Alter Self, Transmutation
Anyways that all I want to say on this subject for now but I just wanted to make my position VERY clear but do tell if I didn't address something or missed something in my reply.
My position on the topic is the same as it was in the previous post.
There is no RAW describing what a form is. Therefore, I think the best conclusion to this discussion is just agreeing to disagree.
In the specific white room this thread is mainly based off of none of this even matters anyways since clone takes months to mature and that seems pretty solidly in the "prep" category. And even if you did allow true polymorph nonsense, the traditional Magic Jar approach (the one that involves holding the gem as a necklace) works perfectly fine.
Or just use Shapechange and accept having to use your concentration. Most of the cheese forms (like rakshasa) don't really require concentration anyways.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Answer: I agree we can agree to disagree but I'm just saying... I do think it works by RAW but whatever I'm not going to have another argument like I did with Wren on the topic of Wish over something like this.
And I do agree that even if we banned all of the shenanigans I still think the wizard can still (if he gets a turn) win the battle against the fighter.
Correct. Just cast shapechange/true polymorph normally, you likely win. I don’t think the magic jar thing is RAW but as you said, agree to disagree.
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Oh god, where to begin?
Do you actually know what a false equivalency is? I don't think so, seeing as you accuse me of using one by actually using one.
Possess in this case of Magic Jar means exactly what I said, 'to have complete power and control over something'. Want proof? Here's the Oxford dictionary definition of possess for exactly the context we are talking about -
(of a demon or spirit, especially an evil one) have complete power over (someone) and be manifested through their speech or actions.
"she was possessed by the Devil"
You claiming that possess and possession mean different things is pure nonsense. Possession is based on the meaning of to possess, which in turn is based on the context in which it is used. Don't take my word for it, let's see what definition should apply to the RAW for Magic Jar -
The only action you can take is to project your soul up to 100 feet out of the container, either returning to your living body (and ending the spell) or attempting to possess a humanoid's body.
You can attempt to possess any humanoid....
So the caster is attempting to own the target's body and make it their property? Or are they attempting to have complete power over someone and be manifested through their speech or actions? In fact, don't see any mention of the word possession at all, so by using your definition of to possess, Magic Jar doesn't involve a spirit entering a body, it's all about a spirit owning a body...
Doesn't matter, because either way they do not become target's body , they either own it or have complete power over it, either of which give them control over it. Don't believe me? Here's the RAW -
Once you possess a creature's body, you control it.
While possessing a body, you can use your action to return from the host body to the container if it is within 100 feet of you, returning the host creature's soul to its body. If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies
Look at the wording used. Possess. Control. Host. Notice no mention of transform, new forms or anything like that, which are the words used by Polymorph and Shapechange. Looks like my example was right, to possess something isn't to be something, especially as you can possess a car as a spirit, but it still doesn't make the spirit a car. So, yeah, as you say.
That's why Clone doesn't work with Magic Jar, the host body is never your body, you are never the original creature cloned. What's more, killing the host body to get clone to activate doesn't work either.
If the host body dies while you're in it, the creature dies, and you must make a Charisma saving throw against your own spellcasting DC. On a success, you return to the container if it is within 100 feet of you. Otherwise, you die.
Simply put (which you even state later), you die means your soul and your body die. To prevent your death, you'd need a clone of your body, because that's what makes up the you that dies, not you in the creature's body. Furthermore, you've actually cloned the host body, which is the creature's body. They can use the clone to cheat death because it's a duplicate of their body. You can't even claim you can die first and take the duplicate, RAW means whilst they die, you're busy trying to get back to the container. You can't even claim that you don't try if you aren't in range, the sequence of words 'must make a check, if check succeeds return if in range' prevents this. The range check only occurs after you succeed at the saving through. Can you voluntarily fail the check? Probably not, as must is a specific rule that overrides the general rule, plus you still need to make a check to fail it.
Another false equivalency, you're not even making any attempt address anything, you are attacking my style and then repeating that it'll work with another example of ignoring RAW.
Two Magic Jars doesn't work.
You are moving container #1 away from the creature's body to destroy it so the creature dies because it's soul cannot get back to it's body. You even state this 'the wizard moves the creature away so that it can't return back to it's body it dies as normal and you are fine'. This is correct, if a soul can't return to it's body, it dies, both body and soul. This applies to both the creature and the caster.
If the container is destroyed or the spell ends, your soul immediately returns to your body. If your body is more than 100 feet away from you or if your body is dead when you attempt to return to it, you die.
So you are destroying container #2 to return the the creature's body, which is dead as a result of destroying container #1. Doesn't work. RAW, you can't return to a dead body. That actually doesn't matter, because at no point does the creature's body become your body. In fact, it's referred to as the host body to make it clear that it is different to your body. Returning to the body you are in at the time of casting isn't mentioned either. It says your soul immediately returns to your body. Even if it did say something different, it wouldn't matter because the body you are attempting to return to is dead at this point and you can't return to a dead body, you die instead. Not that you can avoid returning to your body, which I'll deal with in a bit, but even if you could, you'd then not leave your body for the creature's. Having a soul or not in container #2 doesn't change these facts. (That's before we even get to True Polymorph and souls, which is solely dependent the claim the your body is no longer your body).
Sorry, but the argument for staying in the host body is just wrong.
The simple fact of the matter is that to retain possession of the body, you need Magic Jar to be active, and you need a container. When it ends, you can't stay in the host body, because that's an effect of the spell and doesn't persist once the spell has ended. Your soul leaves as part of the attempt to return and tries to return to you body, but it can't, so you die. Death Ward does not change the fact that the spell has ended and there is no longer a container, both of which are required for possession.
In fact, you even made the case earlier for it not working. For your explanation for two jars to work, it's dependant upon the creature (body and soul) dying because it can't get to it's body because it's to far away. The same rule applies to the caster soul and body, which you confirmed with the Death Ward strategy. You die means your body and soul dies. Creature dies means it's body and soul dies. You not being able to return to your body does not kill the creature's body, only yours. The creature only dies if it's soul is too far away. As written, to prevent your death you'd need to ward your body, because that what makes you and you are what dies.
In fact, RAW, there is never any 'your soul/creature body' death effect for Death Ward to prevent, because at no point does your soul and the creature's body form a creature as it's never your body, it's always one that you are in and control. I'd suggest that perhaps Death Ward would prevent the creature from dying due to the death of it's body (the body death would be stopped) as that'd be in line with warding your body.
You missed the point completely on this, at no point have I mentioned range of spells other than for causing death, but it still doesn't stop you making yet another false equivalency. I've outlined why this doesn't work above.
On a positive note, I do think the boring 'hide the body and container' strategy works fine, just don't go near anything that would dispel the Magic Jar, otherwise you'd probably have a very angry dragon to deal with...
The jar AND the imprisonment would both need to be dispelled. But the imprisoning of self still involves some form of grey area in the question if do you make a wisdom save when your catatonic body that you want imprisoned is imprisoned by you. I’d probably say no, but that isn’t RAW.
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Getting back to the original question of whether, in a white room, a fighter can beat a wizard, there are three solutions saying "no" and two of those are heavily disputed (they may violate the rules of the game).
Let's see if there is another solution. I say, let's go down the list of official wizard schools, one by one, and see
Abjurer
Conjuror
Diviner - yes*
Enchanter
Evoker
Illusionist - yes
Transmuter
War Fighter
Bladesinging
Order of the Scribes
* the Diviner should be easy. She'll have the Lucky feat. She'll use a high diviner die to ensure that she goes first in initiative and cast a spell, maybe (but not necessarily) Hold Person on the Fighter, using a low diviner die to ensure the Fighter fails.
Also, abjurer yes. Way better than illusion. Abjurers can simply have their ward for +45 hp, allowing them to tank most nova-type fighters, which is most viable fighters.
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