Diviner who just uses their portents to auto-win initiative and true polymorphs the fighter into a cabbage. Why the fancy builds?
Give them the Lucky feat to counteract a fighter's Lucky feat, just in case.
The Three Portent ain’t guaranteed although I do get your sentiment but the fighter could still get a higher initiative though (and quite easily). And as with the polymorph the fighter into a cabbage remember the fighter has indomitable, lucky and most likely even more to help out with that.
Diviner doesn't "auto-win" initiative. It has a strong chance to win, but nothing is automatic about it. Against a Battlemaster with Ambush it actually has less numerical bonuses to initiative, and has to rely much more on portent lining up well. The convoluted builds come from a place of trying to maximize win percentage as much as possible. It's already established wizards stomp the fighter 9/10. My greedy ass wants that last point. All of this squibble squabble is about trying to smother them in the dust because in true wizard fashion, there's never enough power.
Between indomitable, resilient, lucky and something gross like Yuan-Ti, you cannot expect to just force through a save or die spell, even with your own lucky (and portent). So in reality, this Diviner of yours does have a fail state, and that fail state is getting their teeth kicked in.
None of the initiative focused builds have room for much in the way of HP padding, if any at all. So because they cannot guarantee going first, and are frail, they can lose to any fighter capable of producing 120-130 damage. (Again, the odds may be slim, but at this point we're scratching at those last few percentage points trying to get a total victory for the wizard)
You act as if I will ever actually max con (obviously I Can as their are many variations with the Chronurgist) but in reality there are a lot of spells that literally don’t care about the wizards concentration and if I’m to go first I’m not going to be hit. As with the success - failure all I got to say is the success is to beat every other thing and succeed but ehh I feel like we can agree to disagree as I feel we are both not gonna change are opinions.
I never claimed you were trying to build for constitution. I also never said that it had anything to do with concentration. I was bringing up the fact that if you try to maximize your initiative, which you clearly have been talking up, then you leave yourself with a frail, 122 hp wizard. You cannot guarantee winning initiative against anyone. As I've shown your advantage in the department is not as strong as you claim, even when you spend all of your ASIs on it, which is what the chronurgist in my example did.
I completely agree a high HP chronurgist has a lot of potential. Back before I posted the full build of Dread, I posted the outline for the hobgoblin wizard as something that could be applied to any subclass. Doesn't have to be a hobbo build, but getting up to 200ish HP gives you a lot of space against the Fighter.
I have been wondering about warcaster myself, but I feel like keeping the True Polymorph for Dragon line as strong as possible is a good thing in Dread's arsenal. I also want to have a strong improved invisibility available because I think the EK presents a very convoluted fight that cannot be determined by simple damage calcs. Whether that is actually necessary, I'm not quite sure. Metamagic Adept for Subtle spell is a good idea. I'm going to give that a think. Resilient Con brings Dread up to 18 in the stat, so that's staying.
As I said above, I think it's quite clear by now that the Wizard is an overwhelming favorite in the matchup. I agree giving the fighter even 10% feels generous.
Dravaal28I can definitely see your logic and how it lead down that path. I'd be surprised if that works though. Again, I think it boils down to "success" in initiative being a subjective thing, not an objective state outlined by the rules. There is no fail state to initiative so you cannot succeed. There is no DC to the initiative roll. You just roll and take your turns.
But I'm happy to put the subject down, especially if the person I'm debating has already made it clear they won't listen.
(I don’t care if you say there is no success I’ll I say is look at what I’ve quoted).
De4th this forum has been a fun, active affair for the most part. I've enjoyed interacting with you. But approaching debate like this is a really easy way to shut things down. I'm not interested in persuading you about anything, but please reconsider how you approach these things.
Question. Why can't we just do three matches between a Wizard 20 and a Fighter 20? Just to see who would win best 2/3?
This would be fun, however, does not answer the question about consistent wins. A fluke good roll to initiative and some good crits does not inherently answer a question that has a longer answer.....plus its just more fun to discuss like crazy to me at least! Ultimately it is a game of chance though.
That being said I would love to see a PBP for this! If Dread wanted to go against an Arcane Archer we could see it play out!
Yeah best 2/3 is a teensy-weensy sample size and I'm after total domination. That means trying to surmise win rate from a much larger sample size. (A big part of Dread's approach is about the ease of calculating his chance of victory over various fighters as opposed to builds focused on winning initiative and going first). Echoing Optimus, I'm a glutton for conversation. So I'll beat this to death until I have a build with as high a win rate as I feel is possible, even if it's already clear the wizard is so much stronger than the fighter.
Diviner doesn't "auto-win" initiative. It has a strong chance to win, but nothing is automatic about it. Against a Battlemaster with Ambush it actually has less numerical bonuses to initiative, and has to rely much more on portent lining up well. The convoluted builds come from a place of trying to maximize win percentage as much as possible. It's already established wizards stomp the fighter 9/10. My greedy ass wants that last point. All of this squibble squabble is about trying to smother them in the dust because in true wizard fashion, there's never enough power.
Between indomitable, resilient, lucky and something gross like Yuan-Ti, you cannot expect to just force through a save or die spell, even with your own lucky (and portent). So in reality, this Diviner of yours does have a fail state, and that fail state is getting their teeth kicked in.
None of the initiative focused builds have room for much in the way of HP padding, if any at all. So because they cannot guarantee going first, and are frail, they can lose to any fighter capable of producing 120-130 damage. (Again, the odds may be slim, but at this point we're scratching at those last few percentage points trying to get a total victory for the wizard)
You act as if I will ever actually max con (obviously I Can as their are many variations with the Chronurgist) but in reality there are a lot of spells that literally don’t care about the wizards concentration and if I’m to go first I’m not going to be hit. As with the success - failure all I got to say is the success is to beat every other thing and succeed but ehh I feel like we can agree to disagree as I feel we are both not gonna change are opinions.
I never claimed you were trying to build for constitution. I also never said that it had anything to do with concentration. I was bringing up the fact that if you try to maximize your initiative, which you clearly have been talking up, then you leave yourself with a frail, 122 hp wizard. You cannot guarantee winning initiative against anyone. As I've shown your advantage in the department is not as strong as you claim, even when you spend all of your ASIs on it, which is what the chronurgist in my example did.
I completely agree a high HP chronurgist has a lot of potential. Back before I posted the full build of Dread, I posted the outline for the hobgoblin wizard as something that could be applied to any subclass. Doesn't have to be a hobbo build, but getting up to 200ish HP gives you a lot of space against the Fighter.
I have been wondering about warcaster myself, but I feel like keeping the True Polymorph for Dragon line as strong as possible is a good thing in Dread's arsenal. I also want to have a strong improved invisibility available because I think the EK presents a very convoluted fight that cannot be determined by simple damage calcs. Whether that is actually necessary, I'm not quite sure. Metamagic Adept for Subtle spell is a good idea. I'm going to give that a think. Resilient Con brings Dread up to 18 in the stat, so that's staying.
As I said above, I think it's quite clear by now that the Wizard is an overwhelming favorite in the matchup. I agree giving the fighter even 10% feels generous.
Dravaal28I can definitely see your logic and how it lead down that path. I'd be surprised if that works though. Again, I think it boils down to "success" in initiative being a subjective thing, not an objective state outlined by the rules. There is no fail state to initiative so you cannot succeed. There is no DC to the initiative roll. You just roll and take your turns.
But I'm happy to put the subject down, especially if the person I'm debating has already made it clear they won't listen.
(I don’t care if you say there is no success I’ll I say is look at what I’ve quoted).
De4th this forum has been a fun, active affair for the most part. I've enjoyed interacting with you. But approaching debate like this is a really easy way to shut things down. I'm not interested in persuading you about anything, but please reconsider how you approach these things.
I’ll address the things relating to me (mostly):
Point One:
“The convoluted builds come from a place of trying to maximize win percentage as much as possible. It's already established wizards stomp the fighter 9/10. My greedy ass wants that last point. All of this squibble squabble is about trying to smother them in the dust because in true wizard fashion, there's never enough power.”
Answer: Absolutely, I feel that there is build—that probably is a Hobgoblin and Chronurgist— that will just be able to win that 1 point to get the 10/10.
I agree fully with the following statement:
“because in true wizard fashion, there's never enough power.”
Point Two:
”I never claimed you were trying to build for constitution. I also never said that it had anything to do with concentration. I was bringing up the fact that if you try to maximize your initiative, which you clearly have been talking up, then you leave yourself with a frail, 122 hp wizard. You cannot guarantee winning initiative against anyone. As I've shown your advantage in the department is not as strong as you claim, even when you spend all of your ASIs on it, which is what the chronurgist in my example did.“
Answer: (The wizard has 5 ASI) I could do something like this:
Hobgoblin, Chronurgist
8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8
8, 16, 16, 16, 8, 8 (I used Tashas to slide 1 con to Dex)
5 ASI, I take +2 and another +2 to Dex, then tough, then moderately armoured, then I take Metamagic Adept to take (Subtle Spell and Quickened Spell). I think that covers all the bases (Yes this could be better and yes I know that moderately armoured does give a Dex point but this is just posed to give a thought as to the potential).
So my wizard has 13 (Mage Armor) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Shield) AC then I can cast the shield spell for +5 using subtle spell so it can’t be counterspelled. Also my character has like 182 hp. And when it hits my turn I cast timestop, magnificent mansion, enter and close the door then In the mansion cast demiplane walk in and now I have infinite prep time for anything I want. Or I could just do any of the other things said before in this forum and win (like using my many cheese Spell combos). I’ll leave it at that.
Point Three:
”I completely agree a high HP chronurgist has a lot of potential. Back before I posted the full build of Dread, I posted the outline for the hobgoblin wizard as something that could be applied to any subclass. Doesn't have to be a hobbo build, but getting up to 200ish HP gives you a lot of space against the Fighter.”
Answer: Very true and since I’ve dropped the “cOnVerGEnT fUTuRE” initiative thing for now even if I feel like it’d work we can move on and improve/change the current proposed builds. And yes I feel the merging of the Dread Build and Chronurgist build may yield the best result/build.
Point Four:
”I have been wondering about warcaster myself, but I feel like keeping the True Polymorph for Dragon line as strong as possible is a good thing in Dread's arsenal. I also want to have a strong improved invisibility available because I think the EK presents a very convoluted fight that cannot be determined by simple damage calcs. Whether that is actually necessary, I'm not quite sure.“
Answer: Let me say this your not going to True Polymorph into a dragon as dread because their are better things to do like PREP! So as Dread once it’s his turn he should do what I talked about in just timestop, magnificent mansion, demiplane and while in the demiplane do all the prep you like:
Magic jar, Simulacrum, true Polymorph combo (become a dragon or whatever permanently then make a Simulacrum of yourself with both having contingency and more with the prep thing.
demiplane Sequester combo (make fighter die of age).
Theres more but that’s enough for now.
Point Five:
”Metamagic Adept for Subtle spell is a good idea. I'm going to give that a think. Resilient Con brings Dread up to 18 in the stat, so that's staying.“
Answer: Subtle Spell means the spell you use as long as it doesn’t have material components you can cast it without it being countered. As with the Resilient you could keep it if you want I guess.
Point Six:
”As I said above, I think it's quite clear by now that the Wizard is an overwhelming favorite in the matchup. I agree giving the fighter even 10% feels generous.“
Answer: Yes if the forum question was who is stronger between fighter vs wizard It’d be different as the consensus would be in the wizards favour off the bat. As with the giving the fighter 10% I feel it’s was VERY generous as the probability I feel is like under half that amount.
Point Seven:
”De4th this forum has been a fun, active affair for the most part. I've enjoyed interacting with you. But approaching debate like this is a really easy way to shut things down. I'm not interested in persuading you about anything, but please reconsider how you approach these things.“
Answer: I have... as I have surrendered and given ground and as with the quote: “I don’t care if you say there is no success I’ll I say is look at what I’ve quoted.” Yes it was quite dismissive of his point but ehh it was true I was kinda just getting tired of reiterating my talking points so I just said “I don’t care” in which was followed by just read my points over I don’t have much to add but as with this being a civil debate I will try to keep it civil but tbh some people just read things differently (haha). I will take your points into consideration HeironymusZot.
If I'm quoting a short post, or medium sized one without a quote in it, I use the quote tool you find at the bottom right of each post. Then I simply delete passages if I'm trying to respond to a specific point in a longer post to keep everything readable. Bolding the relevant sentences works wonders as well.
If I'm quoting a super long post (and especially ones with quotes in them), then trying to use the quote tool and then editing it down gets really cumbersome and annoying. For these times, I use the Blockquote tool (it's a big parantheses) that is in the tool header of the post I'm typing out. It's on the left, next to the bold, italics, underline and strikethrough functions. Then it's a simple matter of cutting and pasting the relevant passages and usernames into the blockquote. That's what I did when replying to you.
Hope that helps!
You are probably right about True Polymorph. But I'm confused by the Time Stop-Magnificent Mansion-Demiplane line. Mansion takes a full minute to cast. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm just completely missing something here.
I don't think you can do what you did with the racial stats on your hobgoblin chronurgist. I'm pretty sure Tasha's just lets you move around the bonuses you have, not split them up into smaller ones. I like the build though. Seems incredibly strong.
I've already found room for lucky on Dread, so squeaking in metamagic over warcaster is certainly a possibility. The first draft was clearly "look at all my HP's guyz!" because that was easy and fun. But after consideration (and the constant succes of Aethelwolf to poke holes) it definitely seems like the move to pull back on the HP a little to cover other things. I'm liking subtle spell a lot.
If I'm quoting a short post, or medium sized one without a quote in it, I use the quote tool you find at the bottom right of each post. Then I simply delete passages if I'm trying to respond to a specific point in a longer post to keep everything readable. Bolding the relevant sentences works wonders as well.
If I'm quoting a super long post (and especially ones with quotes in them), then trying to use the quote tool and then editing it down gets really cumbersome and annoying. For these times, I use the Blockquote tool (it's a big parantheses) that is in the tool header of the post I'm typing out. It's on the left, next to the bold, italics, underline and strikethrough functions. Then it's a simple matter of cutting and pasting the relevant passages and usernames into the blockquote. That's what I did when replying to you.
Hope that helps!
Ohhh my THANK YOU this will help so much especially when doing my like ten paragraph responses (haha).
But I'm confused by the Time Stop-Magnificent Mansion-Demiplane line. Mansion takes a full minute to cast. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm just completely missing something here.
Answer: Ohh I messed up... welp but it’s easily fixed instead of magnificent mansion just cast Demiplane enter then cast dispel magic boom fixed (if your wondering but how will you guarantee your success I say Convergent Future as you won’t care about the exhaustion). Or you could just cast planeshift and enter a plane/demiplane of your choice so... yeah.
I don't think you can do what you did with the racial stats on your hobgoblin chronurgist. I'm pretty sure Tasha's just lets you move around the bonuses you have, not split them up into smaller ones.
Answer: Yeah well how I read it sounded it could go ether way but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just you can move the score and not you can maneuver the score. But that doesn’t matter to much as if I do it correctly:
Hobgoblin, Chronurgist:
8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8 (Point Buy)
8, 15, 17, 16, 8, 8 (with hobgoblin normal stats)
8, 20, 17, 16, 8, 8 (With the moderately armoured +1 Dex and 2 +2 Dex bonuses, then lucky and metamagic adept) So it still works out fine.
I've already found room for lucky on Dread, so squeaking in metamagic over warcaster is certainly a possibility. The first draft was clearly "look at all my HP's guyz!" because that was easy and fun. But after consideration (and the constant succes of Aethelwolf to poke holes) it definitely seems like the move to pull back on the HP a little to cover other things. I'm liking subtle spell a lot.
Answer: Yeah tbh lucky is OP. And yeah at first it was just HP! but now your wizard needs to cover more ground even when on the high ground. As with subtle spell yes it is great and has many uses that aren’t even used in this battle.
Dravaal28I can definitely see your logic and how it lead down that path. I'd be surprised if that works though. Again, I think it boils down to "success" in initiative being a subjective thing, not an objective state outlined by the rules. There is no fail state to initiative so you cannot succeed. There is no DC to the initiative roll. You just roll and take your turns.
Yeah, I was more trying to make a funny interpretation of the rules if we arbitrarily decided that any roll on initiative was a success. I have my doubts it would actually be ruled that way. What better way to prove your dominance though by forcing your opponent to roll a zero!
8, 17, 15, 16, 8, 8 (has a +2, +1 as per tashas I can choose where they are assigned)
8, 20, 16, 16, 8, 8 (Moderately Armoured (+1 to Dex or Str), Metamagic Adept, Tough, Resilient (Con), ASI (+2 Dex)) there is lots of variation with the feats like the adding of lucky instead of resilient con while moving th int bonus to con to keep hp up etc.
Against the AAA build the Chronurgist can save from the banishment making the AAA not be able to kill the wizard in one turn. Against the EK build the Chronurgist with the Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell) can just counter the hold person (Yes the EK can then action surge cast it again but in realilty a simple change of feats can stop that from happening (lucky, Resilient Wis).
Of course this isn’t a perfect build but it’s good enough to get the point across that even with minor changes (on this build perhaps) you’d hopefully get the best build that is so optimal as to get the win rate to such a good rate that it might as well be an “auto-win” matchup.
8, 17, 15, 16, 8, 8 (has a +2, +1 as per tashas I can choose where they are assigned)
8, 20, 16, 16, 8, 8 (Moderately Armoured (+1 to Dex or Str), Metamagic Adept, Tough, Resilient (Con), ASI (+2 Dex)) there is lots of variation with the feats like the adding of lucky instead of resilient con while moving th int bonus to con to keep hp up etc.
Against the AAA build the Chronurgist can save from the banishment making the AAA not be able to kill the wizard in one turn. Against the EK build the Chronurgist with the Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell) can just counter the hold person (Yes the EK can then action surge cast it again but in realilty a simple change of feats can stop that from happening (lucky, Resilient Wis).
Of course this isn’t a perfect build but it’s good enough to get the point across that even with minor changes (on this build perhaps) you’d hopefully get the best build that is so optimal as to get the win rate to such a good rate that it might as well be an “auto-win” matchup.
I think with sufficient HP and roll manipulation it's hard to say you would lose.
Dravaal28I can definitely see your logic and how it lead down that path. I'd be surprised if that works though. Again, I think it boils down to "success" in initiative being a subjective thing, not an objective state outlined by the rules. There is no fail state to initiative so you cannot succeed. There is no DC to the initiative roll. You just roll and take your turns.
Yeah, I was more trying to make a funny interpretation of the rules if we arbitrarily decided that any roll on initiative was a success. I have my doubts it would actually be ruled that way. What better way to prove your dominance though by forcing your opponent to roll a zero!
LOL so true. Now I'm imagining rolling a d20, looking down, and to my surprise every side is 0. The most powerful magic.
De4th those posts are lookin so crisp! *chef's kiss* Happy I could help.
Agreed with Optimus the build looks incredibly hard to challenge. I think the same shell ported over to Diviner would be devestating as well, especially because portent doesn't take your reaction like chronal shift. As far as I can tell, Chronurgist, Diviner and Abjurer are the best subclasses to field (with chronurgist most likely being the best once you beef HP, but I can't help but root for my baby Dread and his spell resistance and advantage against saves). Depending on how the scenario rules on zombie hordes, then I could see a beefy necromancer just annihilating.
LOL so true. Now I'm imagining rolling a d20, looking down, and to my surprise every side is 0. The most powerful magic.
Answer: Convergent Future is still held back by the restraints of the d20 as in you can’t “roll” anything you could get by rolling a d20 (has to be 1-20).
Agreed with Optimus the build looks incredibly hard to challenge. I think the same shell ported over to Diviner would be devestating as well, especially because portent doesn't take your reaction like chronal shift. As far as I can tell, Chronurgist, Diviner and Abjurer are the best subclasses to field (with chronurgist most likely being the best once you beef HP, but I can't help but root for my baby Dread and his spell resistance and advantage against saves).
Answer: But the problem with the diviner is that the portent is not guaranteed as Convergent Future is though I do recognize that yes 3 portents are amazing but there is a chance of getting like three 11’s. As with Chronurgist, Divination, and Abjuration but also the War Magic, Evoker, and Illusionist are strong to especially the illusionist with illusory Reality and Malleable Illusions and the spell Mirage Arcane for very amazing potential. But yes the Chronurgist, Diviner and Abjuration I think are probably the strongest of the wizard subclasses.
Depending on how the scenario rules on zombie hordes, then I could see a beefy necromancer just annihilating.
Answer: As no prep is allowed (beyond, a caster having mage armor on) that means you can’t cast spells (Animate Dead) before the battle therefore you can’t have undead also since if the wizard could have an infinite army of undead I don’t know how that would work because how would you implement a cap on the undead amount would you say you get as many undead as how many castings you can do or how long as long rest. So you see it is too complicated and it breaks the rule of no prep.
The Three Portent ain’t guaranteed although I do get your sentiment but the fighter could still get a higher initiative though (and quite easily). And as with the polymorph the fighter into a cabbage remember the fighter has indomitable, lucky and most likely even more to help out with that.
Stephanie252
Diviner doesn't "auto-win" initiative. It has a strong chance to win, but nothing is automatic about it. Against a Battlemaster with Ambush it actually has less numerical bonuses to initiative, and has to rely much more on portent lining up well. The convoluted builds come from a place of trying to maximize win percentage as much as possible. It's already established wizards stomp the fighter 9/10. My greedy ass wants that last point. All of this squibble squabble is about trying to smother them in the dust because in true wizard fashion, there's never enough power.
Between indomitable, resilient, lucky and something gross like Yuan-Ti, you cannot expect to just force through a save or die spell, even with your own lucky (and portent). So in reality, this Diviner of yours does have a fail state, and that fail state is getting their teeth kicked in.
None of the initiative focused builds have room for much in the way of HP padding, if any at all. So because they cannot guarantee going first, and are frail, they can lose to any fighter capable of producing 120-130 damage. (Again, the odds may be slim, but at this point we're scratching at those last few percentage points trying to get a total victory for the wizard)
I never claimed you were trying to build for constitution. I also never said that it had anything to do with concentration. I was bringing up the fact that if you try to maximize your initiative, which you clearly have been talking up, then you leave yourself with a frail, 122 hp wizard. You cannot guarantee winning initiative against anyone. As I've shown your advantage in the department is not as strong as you claim, even when you spend all of your ASIs on it, which is what the chronurgist in my example did.
I completely agree a high HP chronurgist has a lot of potential. Back before I posted the full build of Dread, I posted the outline for the hobgoblin wizard as something that could be applied to any subclass. Doesn't have to be a hobbo build, but getting up to 200ish HP gives you a lot of space against the Fighter.
I have been wondering about warcaster myself, but I feel like keeping the True Polymorph for Dragon line as strong as possible is a good thing in Dread's arsenal. I also want to have a strong improved invisibility available because I think the EK presents a very convoluted fight that cannot be determined by simple damage calcs. Whether that is actually necessary, I'm not quite sure. Metamagic Adept for Subtle spell is a good idea. I'm going to give that a think. Resilient Con brings Dread up to 18 in the stat, so that's staying.
As I said above, I think it's quite clear by now that the Wizard is an overwhelming favorite in the matchup. I agree giving the fighter even 10% feels generous.
Dravaal28 I can definitely see your logic and how it lead down that path. I'd be surprised if that works though. Again, I think it boils down to "success" in initiative being a subjective thing, not an objective state outlined by the rules. There is no fail state to initiative so you cannot succeed. There is no DC to the initiative roll. You just roll and take your turns.
But I'm happy to put the subject down, especially if the person I'm debating has already made it clear they won't listen.
De4th this forum has been a fun, active affair for the most part. I've enjoyed interacting with you. But approaching debate like this is a really easy way to shut things down. I'm not interested in persuading you about anything, but please reconsider how you approach these things.
Question. Why can't we just do three matches between a Wizard 20 and a Fighter 20? Just to see who would win best 2/3?
: Systems Online : Nikoli_Goodfellow Homebrew : My WIP Homebrew Class :
(\_/)
( u u)
o/ \🥛🍪 Hey, take care of yourself alright?
This would be fun, however, does not answer the question about consistent wins. A fluke good roll to initiative and some good crits does not inherently answer a question that has a longer answer.....plus its just more fun to discuss like crazy to me at least! Ultimately it is a game of chance though.
That being said I would love to see a PBP for this! If Dread wanted to go against an Arcane Archer we could see it play out!
Yeah best 2/3 is a teensy-weensy sample size and I'm after total domination. That means trying to surmise win rate from a much larger sample size. (A big part of Dread's approach is about the ease of calculating his chance of victory over various fighters as opposed to builds focused on winning initiative and going first). Echoing Optimus, I'm a glutton for conversation. So I'll beat this to death until I have a build with as high a win rate as I feel is possible, even if it's already clear the wizard is so much stronger than the fighter.
And Dread is ready.
Alrighty then. Just thought it might be a fun idea.
: Systems Online : Nikoli_Goodfellow Homebrew : My WIP Homebrew Class :
(\_/)
( u u)
o/ \🥛🍪 Hey, take care of yourself alright?
Oh it definitely is.
I’ll address the things relating to me (mostly):
Point One:
“The convoluted builds come from a place of trying to maximize win percentage as much as possible. It's already established wizards stomp the fighter 9/10. My greedy ass wants that last point. All of this squibble squabble is about trying to smother them in the dust because in true wizard fashion, there's never enough power.”
Answer: Absolutely, I feel that there is build—that probably is a Hobgoblin and Chronurgist— that will just be able to win that 1 point to get the 10/10.
I agree fully with the following statement:
“because in true wizard fashion, there's never enough power.”
Point Two:
”I never claimed you were trying to build for constitution. I also never said that it had anything to do with concentration. I was bringing up the fact that if you try to maximize your initiative, which you clearly have been talking up, then you leave yourself with a frail, 122 hp wizard. You cannot guarantee winning initiative against anyone. As I've shown your advantage in the department is not as strong as you claim, even when you spend all of your ASIs on it, which is what the chronurgist in my example did.“
Answer: (The wizard has 5 ASI) I could do something like this:
Hobgoblin, Chronurgist
8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8
8, 16, 16, 16, 8, 8 (I used Tashas to slide 1 con to Dex)
5 ASI, I take +2 and another +2 to Dex, then tough, then moderately armoured, then I take Metamagic Adept to take (Subtle Spell and Quickened Spell). I think that covers all the bases (Yes this could be better and yes I know that moderately armoured does give a Dex point but this is just posed to give a thought as to the potential).
So my wizard has 13 (Mage Armor) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Shield) AC then I can cast the shield spell for +5 using subtle spell so it can’t be counterspelled. Also my character has like 182 hp. And when it hits my turn I cast timestop, magnificent mansion, enter and close the door then In the mansion cast demiplane walk in and now I have infinite prep time for anything I want. Or I could just do any of the other things said before in this forum and win (like using my many cheese Spell combos). I’ll leave it at that.
Point Three:
”I completely agree a high HP chronurgist has a lot of potential. Back before I posted the full build of Dread, I posted the outline for the hobgoblin wizard as something that could be applied to any subclass. Doesn't have to be a hobbo build, but getting up to 200ish HP gives you a lot of space against the Fighter.”
Answer: Very true and since I’ve dropped the “cOnVerGEnT fUTuRE” initiative thing for now even if I feel like it’d work we can move on and improve/change the current proposed builds. And yes I feel the merging of the Dread Build and Chronurgist build may yield the best result/build.
Point Four:
”I have been wondering about warcaster myself, but I feel like keeping the True Polymorph for Dragon line as strong as possible is a good thing in Dread's arsenal. I also want to have a strong improved invisibility available because I think the EK presents a very convoluted fight that cannot be determined by simple damage calcs. Whether that is actually necessary, I'm not quite sure.“
Answer: Let me say this your not going to True Polymorph into a dragon as dread because their are better things to do like PREP! So as Dread once it’s his turn he should do what I talked about in just timestop, magnificent mansion, demiplane and while in the demiplane do all the prep you like:
Magic jar, Simulacrum, true Polymorph combo (become a dragon or whatever permanently then make a Simulacrum of yourself with both having contingency and more with the prep thing.
demiplane Sequester combo (make fighter die of age).
Theres more but that’s enough for now.
Point Five:
”Metamagic Adept for Subtle spell is a good idea. I'm going to give that a think. Resilient Con brings Dread up to 18 in the stat, so that's staying.“
Answer: Subtle Spell means the spell you use as long as it doesn’t have material components you can cast it without it being countered. As with the Resilient you could keep it if you want I guess.
Point Six:
”As I said above, I think it's quite clear by now that the Wizard is an overwhelming favorite in the matchup. I agree giving the fighter even 10% feels generous.“
Answer: Yes if the forum question was who is stronger between fighter vs wizard It’d be different as the consensus would be in the wizards favour off the bat. As with the giving the fighter 10% I feel it’s was VERY generous as the probability I feel is like under half that amount.
Point Seven:
”De4th this forum has been a fun, active affair for the most part. I've enjoyed interacting with you. But approaching debate like this is a really easy way to shut things down. I'm not interested in persuading you about anything, but please reconsider how you approach these things.“
Answer: I have... as I have surrendered and given ground and as with the quote: “I don’t care if you say there is no success I’ll I say is look at what I’ve quoted.” Yes it was quite dismissive of his point but ehh it was true I was kinda just getting tired of reiterating my talking points so I just said “I don’t care” in which was followed by just read my points over I don’t have much to add but as with this being a civil debate I will try to keep it civil but tbh some people just read things differently (haha). I will take your points into consideration HeironymusZot.
TL:DR: Just Read the Answers.
Also it see sometime y’all do selective quoting: How does one learn this power?
I have two methods I switch between De4th.
Hope that helps!
You are probably right about True Polymorph. But I'm confused by the Time Stop-Magnificent Mansion-Demiplane line. Mansion takes a full minute to cast. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm just completely missing something here.
I don't think you can do what you did with the racial stats on your hobgoblin chronurgist. I'm pretty sure Tasha's just lets you move around the bonuses you have, not split them up into smaller ones. I like the build though. Seems incredibly strong.
I've already found room for lucky on Dread, so squeaking in metamagic over warcaster is certainly a possibility. The first draft was clearly "look at all my HP's guyz!" because that was easy and fun. But after consideration (and the constant succes of Aethelwolf to poke holes) it definitely seems like the move to pull back on the HP a little to cover other things. I'm liking subtle spell a lot.
Ohhh my THANK YOU this will help so much especially when doing my like ten paragraph responses (haha).
Answer: Yeah instead of true Polymorph it’d just be better to do something else.
Answer: Ohh I messed up... welp but it’s easily fixed instead of magnificent mansion just cast Demiplane enter then cast dispel magic boom fixed (if your wondering but how will you guarantee your success I say Convergent Future as you won’t care about the exhaustion). Or you could just cast planeshift and enter a plane/demiplane of your choice so... yeah.
Answer: Yeah well how I read it sounded it could go ether way but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just you can move the score and not you can maneuver the score. But that doesn’t matter to much as if I do it correctly:
Hobgoblin, Chronurgist:
8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8 (Point Buy)
8, 15, 17, 16, 8, 8 (with hobgoblin normal stats)
8, 20, 17, 16, 8, 8 (With the moderately armoured +1 Dex and 2 +2 Dex bonuses, then lucky and metamagic adept) So it still works out fine.
Answer: Thanks but of course more optimization is needed.
Answer: Yeah tbh lucky is OP. And yeah at first it was just HP! but now your wizard needs to cover more ground even when on the high ground. As with subtle spell yes it is great and has many uses that aren’t even used in this battle.
Overall I've enjoyed this discussion!
I’ve loved it!
Yeah, I was more trying to make a funny interpretation of the rules if we arbitrarily decided that any roll on initiative was a success. I have my doubts it would actually be ruled that way. What better way to prove your dominance though by forcing your opponent to roll a zero!
The True Build?:
Hobgoblin, Chronurgist, 5 total ASI’s.
8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8 (Point Buy)
8, 17, 15, 16, 8, 8 (has a +2, +1 as per tashas I can choose where they are assigned)
8, 20, 16, 16, 8, 8 (Moderately Armoured (+1 to Dex or Str), Metamagic Adept, Tough, Resilient (Con), ASI (+2 Dex)) there is lots of variation with the feats like the adding of lucky instead of resilient con while moving th int bonus to con to keep hp up etc.
Against the AAA build the Chronurgist can save from the banishment making the AAA not be able to kill the wizard in one turn.
Against the EK build the Chronurgist with the Metamagic Adept (Subtle Spell) can just counter the hold person (Yes the EK can then action surge cast it again but in realilty a simple change of feats can stop that from happening (lucky, Resilient Wis).
Of course this isn’t a perfect build but it’s good enough to get the point across that even with minor changes (on this build perhaps) you’d hopefully get the best build that is so optimal as to get the win rate to such a good rate that it might as well be an “auto-win” matchup.
I think with sufficient HP and roll manipulation it's hard to say you would lose.
LOL so true. Now I'm imagining rolling a d20, looking down, and to my surprise every side is 0. The most powerful magic.
De4th those posts are lookin so crisp! *chef's kiss* Happy I could help.
Agreed with Optimus the build looks incredibly hard to challenge. I think the same shell ported over to Diviner would be devestating as well, especially because portent doesn't take your reaction like chronal shift. As far as I can tell, Chronurgist, Diviner and Abjurer are the best subclasses to field (with chronurgist most likely being the best once you beef HP, but I can't help but root for my baby Dread and his spell resistance and advantage against saves). Depending on how the scenario rules on zombie hordes, then I could see a beefy necromancer just annihilating.
Answer: Yep and with some some changes it could get even better.
Answer: Convergent Future is still held back by the restraints of the d20 as in you can’t “roll” anything you could get by rolling a d20 (has to be 1-20).
Answer: Thank you for your input o how to do it other wise *this* wouldn’t have happened.
Answer: But the problem with the diviner is that the portent is not guaranteed as Convergent Future is though I do recognize that yes 3 portents are amazing but there is a chance of getting like three 11’s. As with Chronurgist, Divination, and Abjuration but also the War Magic, Evoker, and Illusionist are strong to especially the illusionist with illusory Reality and Malleable Illusions and the spell Mirage Arcane for very amazing potential. But yes the Chronurgist, Diviner and Abjuration I think are probably the strongest of the wizard subclasses.
Answer: As no prep is allowed (beyond, a caster having mage armor on) that means you can’t cast spells (Animate Dead) before the battle therefore you can’t have undead also since if the wizard could have an infinite army of undead I don’t know how that would work because how would you implement a cap on the undead amount would you say you get as many undead as how many castings you can do or how long as long rest. So you see it is too complicated and it breaks the rule of no prep.
Ha. An illusionist gets initiative. Casts an illusion of a lava pit engulfing the fighter, makes it real. Yum.
Answer: Well yes but in some circumstances no.