So the wizard gets no prep but the monk or fighter gets to acquire all these barrels of rare substance?
Answer: Yeah not only is that a point of contention but also like even if the monk or fighter is allowed to get these barrels like they can’t even afford them let alone realistically carry like 20 KEGS of gunpowder.
OFC if you give the fighter/monk a huge advantage and take away prep time for the wizard you will have a fight that is tipped in the monk/fighters favor....that they will easily lose if they do not win initiative.
Answer: Not easily lose but very stacked against them especially when the foe gets 5000gp if free stuff while the wizard doesn’t get anything.
To say a level 20 wizard will not be at all prepared for literally anything for the day is the whitest of white rooms.....Looking at what preparations a Level 20 wizard has made in the books its scary....
Answer: Yeah it is a very white room so much so you have to take a like a core part of being a wizard being their ability to prep for any circumstance.
Halastar has literally made a dungeon that kills high level adventurers on the regular....its in their bag to be ready for anything and taking that away is like taking stunning strike away from monk.
Answer: This is how I view many if not most of level 20 wizards are like since I see no point in why they wouldn’t be like this. Since if they survived all the way up to the highest level known to man then they would be at very least be wary of the unknowns of life like eldritch monsters, the gods, and aberrations of far of realm that still have more power than them the highest tier of magic caster.
Not sure whether this has been mentioned, but a hidden Sharpshooter archer can fire off 8 arrows dealing 1d8+15 damage each. Go battle master and then you can make a miss hit with precision attack and boost 3 more of those attacks (1d12 each, let's assume three of them). That's about 144 damage if all hit which should get through that wizards HP.
Even with a -5 you still have an attack bonus of +8 with a non-magical bow. Without armour, wizards will have low AC even if they boost it with Mage Armour and Shield - unless they boost Dex over con and lose out on HP. That's a solid chance of victory if the fighter gets 1st turn - still more likely with Ambush and perhaps Alert.
Disclaimer: I still firmly believe that the wizard is the better class and will win 9 times out of 10.
300ft range on that bow means you're also well out of the way of the worst wizard spells for at least a turn anyway (Sharpshooter woud remove disadvantage). This build assumes feats as with that many ASIs they are a core part of building strong fighters.
A wizard who gets into fights with fighters is probsbly leaving his tower to travel at some point, right? And unless you used Int as a dump stat, no fighter would dream of taking on wizards in their towers full of nastiness.
Not sure whether this has been mentioned, but a hidden Sharpshooter archer can fire off 8 arrows dealing 1d8+15 damage each. Go battle master and then you can make a miss hit with precision attack and boost 3 more of those attacks (1d12 each, let's assume three of them). That's about 144 damage if all hit which should get through that wizards HP.
Answer: it has been said, and there are better builds than that as of now (see seppuku samurai, EK, AAA, and more builds for large damage outputs). While you are in the right direction by using sharpshooter and archery for good chance to hit and such you miss out on a multitude of available feats, and tactics to increase what at first glance is a weak build (SS Archer build) as this build can be immensely expanded on like as shown with the seppuku samurai being able to output around 300ish damage on average and that’s even accounting for to hit and such and that’s amazing.
Even with a -5 you still have an attack bonus of +8 with a non-magical bow. Without armour, wizards will have low AC even if they boost it with Mage Armour and Shield - unless they boost Dex over con and lose out on HP. That's a solid chance of victory if the fighter gets 1st turn - still more likely with Ambush and perhaps Alert.
Answer: Wizards have many ways to up their initiative via dice manipulation, or even adding their int to their initiative. The most prime of the examples being Chronurgist wizard which is one of if not thee best subclass having divination, and abjuration close behind among others (wizards can also get alert).
As for the AC it fully depends on the wizard because an absolute tank wizard build (hobgoblin abjuration build) can hit an AC of 25 with the help of Mage Armor and shield.
Disclaimer: I still firmly believe that the wizard is the better class and will win 9 times out of 10.
Answer: Goooooooooood join the dark side… ahem… I mean your right. :)
300ft range on that bow means you're also well out of the way of the worst wizard spells for at least a turn anyway (Sharpshooter woud remove disadvantage). This build assumes feats as with that many ASIs they are a core part of building strong fighters.
Answer: This is under the assumption of being able to hit, having such distance, and more but yeah I guess the range would be quite helpful.
A wizard who gets into fights with fighters is probsbly leaving his tower to travel at some point, right? And unless you used Int as a dump stat, no fighter would dream of taking on wizards in their towers full of nastiness.
Answer: We’ll in the “real” world personally I don’t think that really most of any wizard would ever leave their home unless they were ether A) a court wizard being called by his lord, B) Attending an event to keep face, C) Meeting with trusted friends, D) Going on a pilgrimage (or something akin), but then again I’d think a wizard would for most situations ether send a simulacrum with an escort of Polymorph creatures under your spell and control and this is just off the top of my head, now imagine how a real world like 20 int wizard who actually went through great journeys and such now they would be able to concoct even great machinations in their mind then I or you ever could.
300ft range on that bow means you're also well out of the way of the worst wizard spells for at least a turn anyway (Sharpshooter woud remove disadvantage). This build assumes feats as with that many ASIs they are a core part of building strong fighters.
Answer: This is under the assumption of being able to hit, having such distance, and more but yeah I guess the range would be quite helpful.
A wizard who gets into fights with fighters is probsbly leaving his tower to travel at some point, right? And unless you used Int as a dump stat, no fighter would dream of taking on wizards in their towers full of nastiness.
Answer: We’ll in the “real” world personally I don’t think that really most of any wizard would ever leave their home unless they were ether A) a court wizard being called by his lord, B) Attending an event to keep face, C) Meeting with trusted friends, D) Going on a pilgrimage (or something akin), but then again I’d think a wizard would for most situations ether send a simulacrum with an escort of Polymorph creatures under your spell and control and this is just off the top of my head, now imagine how a real world like 20 int wizard who actually went through great journeys and such now they would be able to concoct even great machinations in their mind then I or you ever could.
1) mechanically a fighter with the sharpshooter feat is no more or less accurate shooting a target 350 feet away than he is fighting a target 10 feet away, unless you account for cover wich is probably more likely to be between any two points if those points are further away from eachother, but this fight is supposed to take place in some infinite white void were money can still be exchanged for goods and services. There is not much "realism" in neither the fighter's nor the wizard's toolkit here anyways.
2) it feels like delegating almost all of your social responsibilities and advisory roles to your similacrum could cause some issues, as the only way for you to learn anything the similacrum has seen or heard during these events is to like have it verbally tell you, a system that is not perfect. Eventually your system will grow to be more knowledgeable about the outside world and what your friends are up to than what you are, and if a similacrum dies between social appearances it will become obvious that the current similacrum (assumed to be you) did not actually attend those previous events and only heard from them secondhand.
Oh yeah and if i were the DM, a similacrum who has been alive for a century or so and has been more or less your spokesperson doing stuff maybe twice per year or once every two years, it's personality and mannerisms might start to drift from your own even if it does not "have the abillity to learn and become more powerful". Eventiually that simulacrum will simply stop being "you" in any meaningful sense, and might even start harboring rebellious thoughts even as it is forced to follow your commands by the nature of the spell.
And that sounds like a really really fun storyline
3) a thing i have been thinking about regarding this thread:
two feats that seem instrumental in many of these wizard builds seem to be Resilience (con) and Metamagic Adept, and of the many many spells available to wizards only a handful seem to be used in these strategies.
With that said, how well would a sorcerer fare here? They lack the stupid bullshit dice manipulation mechanics of the divination wizard/ chronurgist, but also get's a feat to spare compared to most wizard builds for like Toughness or whatever. The limited known spells are less of a limitation here since again only a fraction of spells are needed, and the only siginificant differences in what spells are not available to sorcerers compared to wizards is Demiplane* (since a 9th level spell slot is a steep price to pay to either escape or , True polymorph for the highly time consuming dragon gimmic and Forcecage if you want to trap an unsuspecting fighter into the area of deadly spells
*demiplane was added to the sorcerer spell list via tasha's cauldron so nevermind
and if the wizard tries to dissapear and pull of some stupid trick with a bunch of downtime, the sorcerer has a stupid trick of their own, relying on the following two core class features:
whenever the sorcerer finishes a short rest, they regain 4 sorcery points
a sorcerer can expend sorcery points to create a new spell slot (not regain a lost spell slot, get a NEW spell slot on top of your old one)
these created spell slots only go away after you finish a long rest. You are never forced to take a long rest and are not limited on how many short rests you can take.
(celestial and clockwork sorcerers could cast greater restoration, and warforged/ elves/ reborn all don't need to sleep, so no having to worry about gaining exhaustion from not sleeping if using the optional rule from Xanatar's Guide to Everything)
thus, a sorcerer who does this little gimmic thing could potentially accumulate as many as 96 additional 5th level spell slots over the course of a week. While having a bunch of 5th level spell slots will not help much in a fight where 6th-9th level spell slots are going to be most relevant, but it will make sure that you never need to run out of sorcery points and never completely run out of spells. This is especially true if the wizard takes a few centuries to turn his dragon self into an ancient example, the sorcerer could have thousands of 5th level spell slots by the time the wizard comes back, such that the sorcerer can afford to be stupidly wasteful with spell resources, such as an clockwork soul wasting a bunch on Bastion of Law, Clockwork Cavalcade and Aid to make most efforts to deal direct damage to him impossible or using greater restoration every turn to remove exhaustion caused by sickening radiance (even if they can easily just dispel it or move away). Once the wiz has been dragonified of course he can just make a new similacrum each long rest to yeet at the sorcerer while the sorcerer needs to keep abstaining from long rests to keep their billion 5th level spells, but it is an interesting thing that could potentially be abused in many different ways, such as trying to break action economy with Tiny Servant, aid, Glyph of Warding and Dragon's breath
i donno i just feel like it would be an interesting matchup either against the wizard or against the fighter, even if it starts to drift away from the subject of the fighter class.
(an idea i wanna play around with: deliberately dumping your cha stat to exploit the Seeking spell Metamagic option, like you cast blade of disaster and want to make it so that as many non-crits as possible miss so you can reroll, essentially aiming for a first round win by dealing as much damage as possible with blade of disaster. Is it good? hell no, but it is interesting. Could potentially be improved via the lucky feat and just deliberately closing your eyes for the ?)
(i wonder, is there anything in the rules preventing you from using the same metamagic option on the same spell multiple times RAW? Could you use multiple Empower spell and multiple Seeking spell options for multiple damage rerolls or multiple attack rerolls?)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
1) mechanically a fighter with the sharpshooter feat is no more or less accurate shooting a target 350 feet away than he is fighting a target 10 feet away, unless you account for cover wich is probably more likely to be between any two points if those points are further away from eachother, but this fight is supposed to take place in some infinite white void were money can still be exchanged for goods and services.
Answer: Never said that the fighter is less accurate when at greater distances I did say that you would need to get that distance (of say 350ft) as in this “infinite white void” otherwise known as “the white room” set standards are made to keep a relative “fairness” to any side so no “favourable” implements can skew the results of the battle.
There is not much "realism" in neither the fighter's nor the wizard's toolkit here anyways.
Answer: Very true since “adding” realism would require a world and therefore alter the “white room.”
2) it feels like delegating almost all of your social responsibilities and advisory roles to your similacrum could cause some issues, as the only way for you to learn anything the similacrum has seen or heard during these events is to like have it verbally tell you, a system that is not perfect. Eventually your system will grow to be more knowledgeable about the outside world and what your friends are up to than what you are, and if a similacrum dies between social appearances it will become obvious that the current similacrum (assumed to be you) did not actually attend those previous events and only heard from them secondhand.
Answer: Remember this isn’t just some simulacrum it your simulacrum and that simulacrum is powerful (not even taking into account that it/you may be an ancient spellcasting gold shadow dragon or whatever). Just saying I have no doubt (I even said this before) that the simulacrum (just like the wizard) would be equipped with a multitude of bodyguards, enchantments, possibly magic items, and the fact that the wizard could just be scrying and/or divining the simulacrum at all time so he knows what his simulacrum is doing.
While there is more things I could say to this subject I feel at this point you get what I’m trying to say.
Oh yeah and if i were the DM, a similacrum who has been alive for a century or so and has been more or less your spokesperson doing stuff maybe twice per year or once every two years, it's personality and mannerisms might start to drift from your own even if it does not "have the abillity to learn and become more powerful". Eventiually that simulacrum will simply stop being "you" in any meaningful sense, and might even start harboring rebellious thoughts even as it is forced to follow your commands by the nature of the spell.
Answer: I love the idea of the simulacrum slowly becoming a “different” person by just the small differences in what the two experience daily, buuuut since for how the spell simulacrum the copy is well still fundamentally you and must obey its creators wishes.
And that sounds like a really really fun storyline
Answer: It is and as a DM you could set up this as when the simulacrum is out on one of it visits it tries to request help to “free” itself and next thing you know the simulacrum is gone and perhaps say you don’t want to make another one, don’t want to expend resources, or it has something you want back (wearing a certain magic item?) and now you have to find out where your simulacrum has gone!
3) a thing i have been thinking about regarding this thread:
two feats that seem instrumental in many of these wizard builds seem to be Resilience (con) and Metamagic Adept, and of the many many spells available to wizards only a handful seem to be used in these strategies.
Answer: Metamagic sure but Resilience (Con) I don’t think so… as for Metamagic there are builds that don’t use it and are still great. One that comes to mind is the Polearm Master, Warcaster type build made for when the fighter comes within close range you can cast an action spell as an reaction (like Forcecage perhaps) and just shut down the fighter so he can’t murder you.
With that said, how well would a sorcerer fare here? They lack the stupid bullshit dice manipulation mechanics of the divination wizard/ chronurgist, but also get's a feat to spare compared to most wizard builds for like Toughness or whatever. The limited known spells are less of a limitation here since again only a fraction of spells are needed, and the only siginificant differences in what spells are not available to sorcerers compared to wizards is Demiplane* (since a 9th level spell slot is a steep price to pay to either escape or , True polymorph for the highly time consuming dragon gimmic and Forcecage if you want to trap an unsuspecting fighter into the area of deadly spells
*demiplane was added to the sorcerer spell list via tasha's cauldron so nevermind
Answer: Well the sorcerer while as you say does have a limited spell selection but just by looking at say the 8th level spells the wizard has over twice the sorcerers spells and the sorcerer doesn’t have the goodies like Clone, Feeblemind, and Maze and while looking at the 7th level spells the sorcerer misses out on Forcecage, Simulacrum, and Sequester.
and if the wizard tries to dissapear and pull of some stupid trick with a bunch of downtime, the sorcerer has a stupid trick of their own, relying on the following two core class features:
whenever the sorcerer finishes a short rest, they regain 4 sorcery points
a sorcerer can expend sorcery points to create a new spell slot (not regain a lost spell slot, get a NEW spell slot on top of your old one)
these created spell slots only go away after you finish a long rest. You are never forced to take a long rest and are not limited on how many short rests you can take.
(celestial and clockwork sorcerers could cast greater restoration, and warforged/ elves/ reborn all don't need to sleep, so no having to worry about gaining exhaustion from not sleeping if using the optional rule from Xanatar's Guide to Everything)
thus, a sorcerer who does this little gimmic thing could potentially accumulate as many as 96 additional 5th level spell slots over the course of a week. While having a bunch of 5th level spell slots will not help much in a fight where 6th-9th level spell slots are going to be most relevant, but it will make sure that you never need to run out of sorcery points and never completely run out of spells. This is especially true if the wizard takes a few centuries to turn his dragon self into an ancient example, the sorcerer could have thousands of 5th level spell slots by the time the wizard comes back, such that the sorcerer can afford to be stupidly wasteful with spell resources, such as an clockwork soul wasting a bunch on Bastion of Law, Clockwork Cavalcade and Aid to make most efforts to deal direct damage to him impossible or using greater restoration every turn to remove exhaustion caused by sickening radiance (even if they can easily just dispel it or move away). Once the wiz has been dragonified of course he can just make a new similacrum each long rest to yeet at the sorcerer while the sorcerer needs to keep abstaining from long rests to keep their billion 5th level spells, but it is an interesting thing that could potentially be abused in many different ways, such as trying to break action economy with Tiny Servant, aid, Glyph of Warding and Dragon's breath
Answer: I love it but as you say could it realistically win against back to back wizard dragons I think not especially since as you say with this strategy if you take a long rest your kinda just done for as all of you excess resources are poured down the drain.
Though for what you said about doing the “infinite” spells slots strategy that tactic has given me a new respect for sorcerers if just a little respect.
i donno i just feel like it would be an interesting matchup either against the wizard or against the fighter, even if it starts to drift away from the subject of the fighter class.
Answer: Well since we already went over the monk and since I think the wizard vs fighter match has gone a little stale/slowed down ever since the introduction of Seppuku Sniper Samurai and the Satyr Chronurgist Tank Builds they (I think) have reached their highest form of optimization (for this white room scenario).
(an idea i wanna play around with: deliberately dumping your cha stat to exploit the Seeking spell Metamagic option, like you cast blade of disaster and want to make it so that as many non-crits as possible miss so you can reroll, essentially aiming for a first round win by dealing as much damage as possible with blade of disaster. Is it good? hell no, but it is interesting. Could potentially be improved via the lucky feat and just deliberately closing your eyes for the ?)
Answer: So crit fishing blade of disaster interesting idea… interesting if you knew a way to get advantage and are an elf you could grab Elven Accuracy for more crit fishing potential.
(i wonder, is there anything in the rules preventing you from using the same metamagic option on the same spell multiple times RAW? Could you use multiple Empower spell and multiple Seeking spell options for multiple damage rerolls or multiple attack rerolls?)
Answer: I don’t think so???? But I feel like there is something out there that may prohibit such an occurrence but just off the top of my head seems alight I guess.
I think the fighter would win if he got close up. Most fighters by then should be somewhere around 200 hp and atleast 19 AC. The wizard would have probaly 14-16 AC with mage armour and 5 more with shield, but that is still not as good as a fighter. Also, can I say wizards do not have shapechange? That is for druids and clever bards. But power word stun, hold person, and flesh to stone would probaly be the game changer, but remember a wizards save dc caps at 19 with no magic items, which would be a piece of cake for a fighter with a constitution save. They also have indomitable, which is bad but still is somewhat useful. A dexterity-based fighter that has dex resilience would probaly dodge quite easy. There is such thing as echo knights, so getting to wizard is no problem. I think a well-built fighter would win, but a wizard with a plan might beat it.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Too many variables to tell, but it's a narrow path for the fighter to win and a much wider one for the wizard.
Are they at distance or close up? Is there any prep time before hand? Is the fighter an archer or melee? Is there cover? Or are they in an open field? Just too many variables.
But I think the wizard wins if...he/she wins initiative. The only path for the fighter to win is have them at close range if melee or have no cover, if ranged. Oh, and if the fighter doesn't win initiative, and end it in the first round, the wizard will murder them unless horribly misplayed.
Too many variables to tell, but it's a narrow path for the fighter to win and a much wider one for the wizard.
Are they at distance or close up? Is there any prep time before hand? Is the fighter an archer or melee? Is there cover? Or are they in an open field? Just too many variables.
But I think the wizard wins if...he/she wins initiative. The only path for the fighter to win is have them at close range if melee or have no cover, if ranged. Oh, and if the fighter doesn't win initiative, and end it in the first round, the wizard will murder them unless horribly misplayed.
I'm still quite new to dnd, but how does the wizard murder the fighter? I mean I don't know many spells that wreck the fighter. But you have a point. Fighters are very customizable, like warlock, while in my opinion a wizard would be a little bit of a boring build. I fighter built well could very much one on one a young or even adult Dragon (If it is that good). They could maybe even one on one an ancient Dragon if built very well and has a very nice assortment of magic items (and Dragon slayer). Ok maybe not that OP but it is still fun and customizable. But if we're talking about 2 noobs than the wizard would definitely win. But dnd is not pvp based. Just work out the CR of each and compare them. If it's difference is within 1,2 or the same, the winner could be either, depending on dice rolls.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
I'm still quite new to dnd, but how does the wizard murder the fighter? I mean I don't know many spells that wreck the fighter. But you have a point. Fighters are very customizable, like warlock, while in my opinion a wizard would be a little bit of a boring build. I fighter built well could very much one on one a young or even adult Dragon (If it is that good). They could maybe even one on one an ancient Dragon if built very well and has a very nice assortment of magic items (and Dragon slayer). Ok maybe not that OP but it is still fun and customizable. But if we're talking about 2 noobs than the wizard would definitely win. But dnd is not pvp based. Just work out the CR of each and compare them. If it's difference is within 1,2 or the same, the winner could be either, depending on dice rolls.
I think current strats worth noting are:
Forcecage + Sickening Radiance (roll 600 saving throws, fail 6 and you instantly die)
Invulnerability (self explanatory)
Polymorph + Power Word Kill
Wish + Simulacrum
(True Polymorph/Shangechange gets a mention because it at least grants the fighter a chance to win, but yeah there's no reason a wizard would cast this unless they want that sort of semi-fair battle)
and probably a lot more cheese strats I'll edit in later. Note that the wizard can either focus on winning initiative, or can go a tank build (which do exist). The wizard can also stack on multiple of these cheese strats as well.
Some other things, assuming magical items just favors the wizard more as if the fighter gets a +3 weapon the wizard can get a +3 wand, and It gets even worse if you consider prep, as the wizard could come in with 100 simulacrums or contingency dimension door way outside a fighter's nova range. This doesn't even mention the more op wizard subclasses like divination (you just fail) or chronology (I use a action to cast tiny hut and spend 10 turns drinking tea).
noteworthy fighter subclasses are: Arcane Archers for banishing arrow (counters Invulnerability), Eldritch Knights (Dispel Magic & Counterspell), and Samurai (best nuke). The issue is that it takes a very niche build to counter each wizard strat, which can then be very easily countered by the wizard by... doing anything else. If the fighter knows exactly what spell the wizard is casting to perfectly counter it, why can't the wizard know what build the figher is using and perfectly counter that?
Too many variables to tell, but it's a narrow path for the fighter to win and a much wider one for the wizard.
Are they at distance or close up? Is there any prep time before hand? Is the fighter an archer or melee? Is there cover? Or are they in an open field? Just too many variables.
But I think the wizard wins if...he/she wins initiative. The only path for the fighter to win is have them at close range if melee or have no cover, if ranged. Oh, and if the fighter doesn't win initiative, and end it in the first round, the wizard will murder them unless horribly misplayed.
I'm still quite new to dnd, but how does the wizard murder the fighter? I mean I don't know many spells that wreck the fighter. But you have a point. Fighters are very customizable, like warlock, while in my opinion a wizard would be a little bit of a boring build. I fighter built well could very much one on one a young or even adult Dragon (If it is that good). They could maybe even one on one an ancient Dragon if built very well and has a very nice assortment of magic items (and Dragon slayer). Ok maybe not that OP but it is still fun and customizable. But if we're talking about 2 noobs than the wizard would definitely win. But dnd is not pvp based. Just work out the CR of each and compare them. If it's difference is within 1,2 or the same, the winner could be either, depending on dice rolls.
If the wizard has a turn he/she casts Invulnerability and the fight is effectively over. They can then Firebolt the fighter to death, if they want! ;)
Currently searching for a spell that allows a wizard to counterspell while avoiding getting nova-ed.
Cause if I can find one, any level 20 wizard (including the tank builds people like to use in these 1v1s) could just Time Stop -> Forcecage -> cast that spell -> Sickening Radiance.
Wall of Force works but requires concentration which would mean you would have to manually kill instead of using Sickening Radiance.
Alternatively you don't need to worry about the counterspell stuff if your a Scribes of Wizard, instead just needing to focus on not being nova-ed. Samurai and Arcane Archer are not a issue by this point.
What is a issue is Eldritch Knight. While EK can only dispel + counterspell the wizard's counterspell twice, and you can do Forcecage + Sickening Radiance three times, the EK does have misty step, and can misty step more times than the wizard can counterspell (EK 11 vs Wizard 14- wait a second).
Nevermind, EK isn't such a issue after all. Ranged EKs are still a pain cause I haven't figured out that perfect spell yet, although you could wall of force and then manually kill as stated before as long as you can kill a EK under an hour, which actually now that I say out loud doesn't seem as much of a issue as I thought it was.
Although I'm sure someone has made a tanky EK ranged build somewhere, and if the EK does the whole misty step nonsense you'll only have 1/2 level slots, like 1 or 2 higher level slots (which could be used to recast forcecage for another hour), Spell Mastery and Signature Spells. That should be enough for most ranged EKs but as I said, someone out there might be able to dispute that.
Currently searching for a spell that allows a wizard to counterspell while avoiding getting nova-ed.
Cause if I can find one, any level 20 wizard (including the tank builds people like to use in these 1v1s) could just Time Stop -> Forcecage -> cast that spell -> Sickening Radiance.
Wall of Force works but requires concentration which would mean you would have to manually kill instead of using Sickening Radiance.
Alternatively you don't need to worry about the counterspell stuff if your a Scribes of Wizard, instead just needing to focus on not being nova-ed. Samurai and Arcane Archer are not a issue by this point.
What is a issue is Eldritch Knight. While EK can only dispel + counterspell the wizard's counterspell twice, and you can do Forcecage + Sickening Radiance three times, the EK does have misty step, and can misty step more times than the wizard can counterspell (EK 11 vs Wizard 14- wait a second).
Nevermind, EK isn't such a issue after all. Ranged EKs are still a pain cause I haven't figured out that perfect spell yet, although you could wall of force and then manually kill as stated before as long as you can kill a EK under an hour, which actually now that I say out loud doesn't seem as much of a issue as I thought it was.
Although I'm sure someone has made a tanky EK ranged build somewhere, and if the EK does the whole misty step nonsense you'll only have 1/2 level slots, like 1 or 2 higher level slots (which could be used to recast forcecage for another hour), Spell Mastery and Signature Spells. That should be enough for most ranged EKs but as I said, someone out there might be able to dispute that.
Counterspell won't even be an issue. The Wizard will Counterspell your Counterspell. So it doesn't even matter.
If the Wizard gets a turn, the fight is over. Only way for the Fighter to win is to win initiative and kill the Wizard in that first turn. The whole fight, is winning initiative and killing the Wizard. No point in even playing it out beyond that. If the Wizard survives the Fighter's turn with 1 hp or more, the Wizard will win.
Counterspell won't even be an issue. The Wizard will Counterspell your Counterspell. So it doesn't even matter.
If the Wizard gets a turn, the fight is over. Only way for the Fighter to win is to win initiative and kill the Wizard in that first turn. The whole fight, is winning initiative and killing the Wizard. No point in even playing it out beyond that. If the Wizard survives the Fighter's turn with 1 hp or more, the Wizard will win.
Should of been more clear
Dispel + Counterspell doesn't mean the EK counterspells their own dispel magic, it means the EK casts dispel magic and then if the wizard counterspells then the fighter can counterspell them back.
Either way you are right it isn't a issue as I state in the post, the EK doesn't have enough spell slots to make this a viable strategy.
I haven't heard of the invulnerability spell, but that is OP. But by then the fighter could have armour of invulnerability. Or a flametongue. Or backrazer. The point is I reckon is that A. Dnd is not for pvp and B. Is that this whole battle is balanced on 2 d20 rolls. What is this game????
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
I spent a lot to time combing the entire thread to disprove this like "ha it's not based around initiative if you do this..." but yeah you're right it's 100% just initiative.
These people spent 33 pages going back and forth about fighter novas and wizard tanks just to arrive at the conclusion that if the fighter goes full initiative the wizard most likely wins with full tank, if the fighter goes full nova the wizard most likely wins with full initiative, although if the fighter goes full nuke and the wizard goes full tank the wizard usually loses.
So generally both have to go for max initiative which leads to the 50:50 on who wins.
Edit: magic items don't count because if the fighter grabs a initiative boosting magic item, the wizard just grabs the same thing.
Counterspell won't even be an issue. The Wizard will Counterspell your Counterspell. So it doesn't even matter.
If the Wizard gets a turn, the fight is over. Only way for the Fighter to win is to win initiative and kill the Wizard in that first turn. The whole fight, is winning initiative and killing the Wizard. No point in even playing it out beyond that. If the Wizard survives the Fighter's turn with 1 hp or more, the Wizard will win.
Should of been more clear
Dispel + Counterspell doesn't mean the EK counterspells their own dispel magic, it means the EK casts dispel magic and then if the wizard counterspells then the fighter can counterspell them back.
Either way you are right it isn't a issue as I state in the post, the EK doesn't have enough spell slots to make this a viable strategy.
The EK would have to dispel at a DC of 19 on an intelligence ability check. That's a very likely fail. Nor will your counterspell of the wizard's counterspell likely work, since the wizard can upcast it. This likely won't work, but let's say it does...now it's the wizard's turn...they teleport to a safe distance, then commence to nuke you. Lots of ways to safely nuke for a wizard.
No matter how you slice it, if the fighter loses initiative, the fighter loses. If the fighter has a chance, he/she has to win initiative. Go first and kill the wizard in the first turn is the fighters best and likely only chance imo. Anything other than that, the wizard wins.
I spent a lot to time combing the entire thread to disprove this like "ha it's not based around initiative if you do this..." but yeah you're right it's 100% just initiative.
These people spent 33 pages going back and forth about fighter novas and wizard tanks just to arrive at the conclusion that if the fighter goes full initiative the wizard most likely wins with full tank, if the fighter goes full nova the wizard most likely wins with full initiative, although if the fighter goes full nuke and the wizard goes full tank the wizard usually loses.
So generally both have to go for max initiative which leads to the 50:50 on who wins.
Edit: magic items don't count because if the fighter grabs a initiative boosting magic item, the wizard just grabs the same thing.
I spent a lot to time combing the entire thread to disprove this like "ha it's not based around initiative if you do this..." but yeah you're right it's 100% just initiative.
Answer: Yea quite true as the fighter has to get initiative or the wizard can just win the game through any amount of strategies or tactics shown before with the teleport away for prep tactic, Forcecage + sickening, become a Draconic Demigod and etc.
These people spent 33 pages going back and forth about fighter novas and wizard tanks
Answer: Yep haha a lotta posts were made plenty on my part too fighting for either side (though at beginning I was only wizard but since no one argued fighter I played devils advocate).
just to arrive at the conclusion that if the fighter goes full initiative the wizard most likely wins with full tank,
Answer: As I will say at no point will the fighter go FULL initiative since that means he wouldn’t have enough feats and such for using that initiative to win (ie kill/incapacitate the wizard).
if the fighter goes full nova the wizard most likely wins with full initiative
Answer: Yea well kinda with the seppeku sniper samurai build which can only using average values kill the wizard that build still with everything else has a great initiative that could lead to it kinda being a 50/50 on who wins initiative though in all honesty if wizard goes full initiative for who goes first the wizard is favoured to a great degree.
although if the fighter goes full nuke and the wizard goes full tank the wizard usually loses.
Answer: hahaha I see you missed something nope even if wizard goes full tank the seppuku sniper samurai can deal an average of like over 300ish damage (off the top of my head) so tank wizard is kinda of a no go.
So generally both have to go for max initiative which leads to the 50:50 on who wins.
Answer: Which brings me to my previous point that it’s not a 50/50 more like 60/40 wizards favour or something like that.
Edit: magic items don't count because if the fighter grabs a initiative boosting magic item, the wizard just grabs the same thing.
Answer: YEP and not to mention magic items add to many variables and added rules and such for the white room.
although if the fighter goes full nuke and the wizard goes full tank the wizard usually loses.
Answer: hahaha I see you missed something nope even if wizard goes full tank the seppuku sniper samurai can deal an average of like over 300ish damage (off the top of my head) so tank wizard is kinda of a no go.
"the wizard usually loses"
mostly my fault for accidently using repetition and then similarly accidently breaking said repetition with no warning.
I did actually see that sniper samurai build and I tried for a good while to see if i could update the tank wizard with TCoE but the answer was basically no. (Edit: TDLR of my attempts, medium armored feat is the only way to get shield prof. Even if I was a better builder I doubt I would be able to squeeze enough effective HP to out-tank samurai without a level in fighter)
You and Optimus probably right on it being more towards wizard's favor if both go full initiative, the wizard has more tools for doing so, and the fighter would be sacrificing offensive dpr while the wizard wouldn't be.
although if the fighter goes full nuke and the wizard goes full tank the wizard usually loses.
Answer: hahaha I see you missed something nope even if wizard goes full tank the seppuku sniper samurai can deal an average of like over 300ish damage (off the top of my head) so tank wizard is kinda of a no go.
"the wizard usually loses"
mostly my fault for accidently using repetition and then similarly accidently breaking said repetition with no warning.
I did actually see that sniper samurai build and I tried for a good while to see if i could update the tank wizard with TCoE but the answer was basically no. (Edit: TDLR of my attempts, medium armored feat is the only way to get shield prof. Even if I was a better builder I doubt I would be able to squeeze enough effective HP to out-tank samurai without a level in fighter)
Answer: Yea I tried to but even with hobgoblin (or dwarven races) abjuration tank builds using Dex and con only it still doesn’t matter as the seppuku sniper samurai just deals TOO MUCH DAMAGE of which I find kinda funny tbh.
As for the repetition thingy don’t think much about it.
You and Optimus probably right on it being more towards wizard's favor if both go full initiative, the wizard has more tools for doing so, and the fighter would be sacrificing offensive dpr while the wizard wouldn't be.
Answer: Yep since the fighter needs to not only have huge NOVA but also initiative he has to compromise from either and choose so he can win buuuuuuut the only exception (kinda) is the seppuku sniper samurai as he has not only a respectable initiative +10 but also lucky so while he doesn’t have the best initiative he could get he still has enough to be at least close if not up to par when against certain other non satyr initiative chronurgist tank builds. But as I have said the wizard as he only needs to have a certain spells to win not sacrificing feats or ASI’s he has a larger opportunity to get what he needs to have the highest initiative possible from 20 Dex, Alert, lucky and etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Answer: Yeah not only is that a point of contention but also like even if the monk or fighter is allowed to get these barrels like they can’t even afford them let alone realistically carry like 20 KEGS of gunpowder.
Answer: Not easily lose but very stacked against them especially when the foe gets 5000gp if free stuff while the wizard doesn’t get anything.
Answer: Yeah it is a very white room so much so you have to take a like a core part of being a wizard being their ability to prep for any circumstance.
Answer: This is how I view many if not most of level 20 wizards are like since I see no point in why they wouldn’t be like this. Since if they survived all the way up to the highest level known to man then they would be at very least be wary of the unknowns of life like eldritch monsters, the gods, and aberrations of far of realm that still have more power than them the highest tier of magic caster.
Not sure whether this has been mentioned, but a hidden Sharpshooter archer can fire off 8 arrows dealing 1d8+15 damage each. Go battle master and then you can make a miss hit with precision attack and boost 3 more of those attacks (1d12 each, let's assume three of them). That's about 144 damage if all hit which should get through that wizards HP.
Even with a -5 you still have an attack bonus of +8 with a non-magical bow. Without armour, wizards will have low AC even if they boost it with Mage Armour and Shield - unless they boost Dex over con and lose out on HP. That's a solid chance of victory if the fighter gets 1st turn - still more likely with Ambush and perhaps Alert.
Disclaimer: I still firmly believe that the wizard is the better class and will win 9 times out of 10.
300ft range on that bow means you're also well out of the way of the worst wizard spells for at least a turn anyway (Sharpshooter woud remove disadvantage). This build assumes feats as with that many ASIs they are a core part of building strong fighters.
A wizard who gets into fights with fighters is probsbly leaving his tower to travel at some point, right? And unless you used Int as a dump stat, no fighter would dream of taking on wizards in their towers full of nastiness.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Not really sure if this even needs a response but whatever I’m bored…
Answer: it has been said, and there are better builds than that as of now (see seppuku samurai, EK, AAA, and more builds for large damage outputs). While you are in the right direction by using sharpshooter and archery for good chance to hit and such you miss out on a multitude of available feats, and tactics to increase what at first glance is a weak build (SS Archer build) as this build can be immensely expanded on like as shown with the seppuku samurai being able to output around 300ish damage on average and that’s even accounting for to hit and such and that’s amazing.
Answer: Wizards have many ways to up their initiative via dice manipulation, or even adding their int to their initiative. The most prime of the examples being Chronurgist wizard which is one of if not thee best subclass having divination, and abjuration close behind among others (wizards can also get alert).
As for the AC it fully depends on the wizard because an absolute tank wizard build (hobgoblin abjuration build) can hit an AC of 25 with the help of Mage Armor and shield.
Answer: Goooooooooood join the dark side… ahem… I mean your right. :)
Answer: This is under the assumption of being able to hit, having such distance, and more but yeah I guess the range would be quite helpful.
Answer: We’ll in the “real” world personally I don’t think that really most of any wizard would ever leave their home unless they were ether A) a court wizard being called by his lord, B) Attending an event to keep face, C) Meeting with trusted friends, D) Going on a pilgrimage (or something akin), but then again I’d think a wizard would for most situations ether send a simulacrum with an escort of Polymorph creatures under your spell and control and this is just off the top of my head, now imagine how a real world like 20 int wizard who actually went through great journeys and such now they would be able to concoct even great machinations in their mind then I or you ever could.
1) mechanically a fighter with the sharpshooter feat is no more or less accurate shooting a target 350 feet away than he is fighting a target 10 feet away, unless you account for cover wich is probably more likely to be between any two points if those points are further away from eachother, but this fight is supposed to take place in some infinite white void were money can still be exchanged for goods and services. There is not much "realism" in neither the fighter's nor the wizard's toolkit here anyways.
2) it feels like delegating almost all of your social responsibilities and advisory roles to your similacrum could cause some issues, as the only way for you to learn anything the similacrum has seen or heard during these events is to like have it verbally tell you, a system that is not perfect. Eventually your system will grow to be more knowledgeable about the outside world and what your friends are up to than what you are, and if a similacrum dies between social appearances it will become obvious that the current similacrum (assumed to be you) did not actually attend those previous events and only heard from them secondhand.
Oh yeah and if i were the DM, a similacrum who has been alive for a century or so and has been more or less your spokesperson doing stuff maybe twice per year or once every two years, it's personality and mannerisms might start to drift from your own even if it does not "have the abillity to learn and become more powerful". Eventiually that simulacrum will simply stop being "you" in any meaningful sense, and might even start harboring rebellious thoughts even as it is forced to follow your commands by the nature of the spell.
And that sounds like a really really fun storyline
3) a thing i have been thinking about regarding this thread:
two feats that seem instrumental in many of these wizard builds seem to be Resilience (con) and Metamagic Adept, and of the many many spells available to wizards only a handful seem to be used in these strategies.
With that said, how well would a sorcerer fare here? They lack the stupid bullshit dice manipulation mechanics of the divination wizard/ chronurgist, but also get's a feat to spare compared to most wizard builds for like Toughness or whatever. The limited known spells are less of a limitation here since again only a fraction of spells are needed, and the only siginificant differences in what spells are not available to sorcerers compared to wizards is
Demiplane*(since a 9th level spell slot is a steep price to pay to either escape or , True polymorph for the highly time consuming dragon gimmic and Forcecage if you want to trap an unsuspecting fighter into the area of deadly spells*demiplane was added to the sorcerer spell list via tasha's cauldron so nevermind
and if the wizard tries to dissapear and pull of some stupid trick with a bunch of downtime, the sorcerer has a stupid trick of their own, relying on the following two core class features:
thus, a sorcerer who does this little gimmic thing could potentially accumulate as many as 96 additional 5th level spell slots over the course of a week. While having a bunch of 5th level spell slots will not help much in a fight where 6th-9th level spell slots are going to be most relevant, but it will make sure that you never need to run out of sorcery points and never completely run out of spells. This is especially true if the wizard takes a few centuries to turn his dragon self into an ancient example, the sorcerer could have thousands of 5th level spell slots by the time the wizard comes back, such that the sorcerer can afford to be stupidly wasteful with spell resources, such as an clockwork soul wasting a bunch on Bastion of Law, Clockwork Cavalcade and Aid to make most efforts to deal direct damage to him impossible or using greater restoration every turn to remove exhaustion caused by sickening radiance (even if they can easily just dispel it or move away). Once the wiz has been dragonified of course he can just make a new similacrum each long rest to yeet at the sorcerer while the sorcerer needs to keep abstaining from long rests to keep their billion 5th level spells, but it is an interesting thing that could potentially be abused in many different ways, such as trying to break action economy with Tiny Servant, aid, Glyph of Warding and Dragon's breath
i donno i just feel like it would be an interesting matchup either against the wizard or against the fighter, even if it starts to drift away from the subject of the fighter class.
(an idea i wanna play around with: deliberately dumping your cha stat to exploit the Seeking spell Metamagic option, like you cast blade of disaster and want to make it so that as many non-crits as possible miss so you can reroll, essentially aiming for a first round win by dealing as much damage as possible with blade of disaster. Is it good? hell no, but it is interesting. Could potentially be improved via the lucky feat and just deliberately closing your eyes for the ?)
(i wonder, is there anything in the rules preventing you from using the same metamagic option on the same spell multiple times RAW? Could you use multiple Empower spell and multiple Seeking spell options for multiple damage rerolls or multiple attack rerolls?)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Answer: Never said that the fighter is less accurate when at greater distances I did say that you would need to get that distance (of say 350ft) as in this “infinite white void” otherwise known as “the white room” set standards are made to keep a relative “fairness” to any side so no “favourable” implements can skew the results of the battle.
Answer: Very true since “adding” realism would require a world and therefore alter the “white room.”
Answer: Remember this isn’t just some simulacrum it your simulacrum and that simulacrum is powerful (not even taking into account that it/you may be an ancient spellcasting gold shadow dragon or whatever). Just saying I have no doubt (I even said this before) that the simulacrum (just like the wizard) would be equipped with a multitude of bodyguards, enchantments, possibly magic items, and the fact that the wizard could just be scrying and/or divining the simulacrum at all time so he knows what his simulacrum is doing.
While there is more things I could say to this subject I feel at this point you get what I’m trying to say.
Answer: I love the idea of the simulacrum slowly becoming a “different” person by just the small differences in what the two experience daily, buuuut since for how the spell simulacrum the copy is well still fundamentally you and must obey its creators wishes.
Answer: It is and as a DM you could set up this as when the simulacrum is out on one of it visits it tries to request help to “free” itself and next thing you know the simulacrum is gone and perhaps say you don’t want to make another one, don’t want to expend resources, or it has something you want back (wearing a certain magic item?) and now you have to find out where your simulacrum has gone!
Answer: Metamagic sure but Resilience (Con) I don’t think so… as for Metamagic there are builds that don’t use it and are still great. One that comes to mind is the Polearm Master, Warcaster type build made for when the fighter comes within close range you can cast an action spell as an reaction (like Forcecage perhaps) and just shut down the fighter so he can’t murder you.
Answer: Well the sorcerer while as you say does have a limited spell selection but just by looking at say the 8th level spells the wizard has over twice the sorcerers spells and the sorcerer doesn’t have the goodies like Clone, Feeblemind, and Maze and while looking at the 7th level spells the sorcerer misses out on Forcecage, Simulacrum, and Sequester.
Answer: I love it but as you say could it realistically win against back to back wizard dragons I think not especially since as you say with this strategy if you take a long rest your kinda just done for as all of you excess resources are poured down the drain.
Though for what you said about doing the “infinite” spells slots strategy that tactic has given me a new respect for sorcerers if just a little respect.
Answer: Well since we already went over the monk and since I think the wizard vs fighter match has gone a little stale/slowed down ever since the introduction of Seppuku Sniper Samurai and the Satyr Chronurgist Tank Builds they (I think) have reached their highest form of optimization (for this white room scenario).
Answer: So crit fishing blade of disaster interesting idea… interesting if you knew a way to get advantage and are an elf you could grab Elven Accuracy for more crit fishing potential.
Answer: I don’t think so???? But I feel like there is something out there that may prohibit such an occurrence but just off the top of my head seems alight I guess.
I think the fighter would win if he got close up. Most fighters by then should be somewhere around 200 hp and atleast 19 AC. The wizard would have probaly 14-16 AC with mage armour and 5 more with shield, but that is still not as good as a fighter. Also, can I say wizards do not have shapechange? That is for druids and clever bards. But power word stun, hold person, and flesh to stone would probaly be the game changer, but remember a wizards save dc caps at 19 with no magic items, which would be a piece of cake for a fighter with a constitution save. They also have indomitable, which is bad but still is somewhat useful. A dexterity-based fighter that has dex resilience would probaly dodge quite easy. There is such thing as echo knights, so getting to wizard is no problem. I think a well-built fighter would win, but a wizard with a plan might beat it.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Too many variables to tell, but it's a narrow path for the fighter to win and a much wider one for the wizard.
Are they at distance or close up? Is there any prep time before hand? Is the fighter an archer or melee? Is there cover? Or are they in an open field? Just too many variables.
But I think the wizard wins if...he/she wins initiative. The only path for the fighter to win is have them at close range if melee or have no cover, if ranged. Oh, and if the fighter doesn't win initiative, and end it in the first round, the wizard will murder them unless horribly misplayed.
I'm still quite new to dnd, but how does the wizard murder the fighter? I mean I don't know many spells that wreck the fighter. But you have a point. Fighters are very customizable, like warlock, while in my opinion a wizard would be a little bit of a boring build. I fighter built well could very much one on one a young or even adult Dragon (If it is that good). They could maybe even one on one an ancient Dragon if built very well and has a very nice assortment of magic items (and Dragon slayer). Ok maybe not that OP but it is still fun and customizable. But if we're talking about 2 noobs than the wizard would definitely win. But dnd is not pvp based. Just work out the CR of each and compare them. If it's difference is within 1,2 or the same, the winner could be either, depending on dice rolls.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
I think current strats worth noting are:
Forcecage + Sickening Radiance (roll 600 saving throws, fail 6 and you instantly die)
Invulnerability (self explanatory)
Polymorph + Power Word Kill
Wish + Simulacrum
(True Polymorph/Shangechange gets a mention because it at least grants the fighter a chance to win, but yeah there's no reason a wizard would cast this unless they want that sort of semi-fair battle)
and probably a lot more cheese strats I'll edit in later. Note that the wizard can either focus on winning initiative, or can go a tank build (which do exist). The wizard can also stack on multiple of these cheese strats as well.
Some other things, assuming magical items just favors the wizard more as if the fighter gets a +3 weapon the wizard can get a +3 wand, and It gets even worse if you consider prep, as the wizard could come in with 100 simulacrums or contingency dimension door way outside a fighter's nova range. This doesn't even mention the more op wizard subclasses like divination (you just fail) or chronology (I use a action to cast tiny hut and spend 10 turns drinking tea).
noteworthy fighter subclasses are: Arcane Archers for banishing arrow (counters Invulnerability), Eldritch Knights (Dispel Magic & Counterspell), and Samurai (best nuke). The issue is that it takes a very niche build to counter each wizard strat, which can then be very easily countered by the wizard by... doing anything else. If the fighter knows exactly what spell the wizard is casting to perfectly counter it, why can't the wizard know what build the figher is using and perfectly counter that?
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
If the wizard has a turn he/she casts Invulnerability and the fight is effectively over. They can then Firebolt the fighter to death, if they want! ;)
Invulnerability - Spells - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
Currently searching for a spell that allows a wizard to counterspell while avoiding getting nova-ed.
Cause if I can find one, any level 20 wizard (including the tank builds people like to use in these 1v1s) could just Time Stop -> Forcecage -> cast that spell -> Sickening Radiance.
Wall of Force works but requires concentration which would mean you would have to manually kill instead of using Sickening Radiance.
Alternatively you don't need to worry about the counterspell stuff if your a Scribes of Wizard, instead just needing to focus on not being nova-ed. Samurai and Arcane Archer are not a issue by this point.
What is a issue is Eldritch Knight. While EK can only dispel + counterspell the wizard's counterspell twice, and you can do Forcecage + Sickening Radiance three times, the EK does have misty step, and can misty step more times than the wizard can counterspell (EK 11 vs Wizard 14- wait a second).
Nevermind, EK isn't such a issue after all. Ranged EKs are still a pain cause I haven't figured out that perfect spell yet, although you could wall of force and then manually kill as stated before as long as you can kill a EK under an hour, which actually now that I say out loud doesn't seem as much of a issue as I thought it was.
Although I'm sure someone has made a tanky EK ranged build somewhere, and if the EK does the whole misty step nonsense you'll only have 1/2 level slots, like 1 or 2 higher level slots (which could be used to recast forcecage for another hour), Spell Mastery and Signature Spells. That should be enough for most ranged EKs but as I said, someone out there might be able to dispute that.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Counterspell won't even be an issue. The Wizard will Counterspell your Counterspell. So it doesn't even matter.
If the Wizard gets a turn, the fight is over. Only way for the Fighter to win is to win initiative and kill the Wizard in that first turn. The whole fight, is winning initiative and killing the Wizard. No point in even playing it out beyond that. If the Wizard survives the Fighter's turn with 1 hp or more, the Wizard will win.
Should of been more clear
Dispel + Counterspell doesn't mean the EK counterspells their own dispel magic, it means the EK casts dispel magic and then if the wizard counterspells then the fighter can counterspell them back.
Either way you are right it isn't a issue as I state in the post, the EK doesn't have enough spell slots to make this a viable strategy.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I haven't heard of the invulnerability spell, but that is OP. But by then the fighter could have armour of invulnerability. Or a flametongue. Or backrazer. The point is I reckon is that A. Dnd is not for pvp and B. Is that this whole battle is balanced on 2 d20 rolls. What is this game????
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
I spent a lot to time combing the entire thread to disprove this like "ha it's not based around initiative if you do this..." but yeah you're right it's 100% just initiative.
These people spent 33 pages going back and forth about fighter novas and wizard tanks just to arrive at the conclusion that if the fighter goes full initiative the wizard most likely wins with full tank, if the fighter goes full nova the wizard most likely wins with full initiative, although if the fighter goes full nuke and the wizard goes full tank the wizard usually loses.
So generally both have to go for max initiative which leads to the 50:50 on who wins.
Edit: magic items don't count because if the fighter grabs a initiative boosting magic item, the wizard just grabs the same thing.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
The EK would have to dispel at a DC of 19 on an intelligence ability check. That's a very likely fail. Nor will your counterspell of the wizard's counterspell likely work, since the wizard can upcast it. This likely won't work, but let's say it does...now it's the wizard's turn...they teleport to a safe distance, then commence to nuke you. Lots of ways to safely nuke for a wizard.
No matter how you slice it, if the fighter loses initiative, the fighter loses. If the fighter has a chance, he/she has to win initiative. Go first and kill the wizard in the first turn is the fighters best and likely only chance imo. Anything other than that, the wizard wins.
Definitely not 50/50
Wizard will win 80% at worst.
Answer: Yea quite true as the fighter has to get initiative or the wizard can just win the game through any amount of strategies or tactics shown before with the teleport away for prep tactic, Forcecage + sickening, become a Draconic Demigod and etc.
Answer: Yep haha a lotta posts were made plenty on my part too fighting for either side (though at beginning I was only wizard but since no one argued fighter I played devils advocate).
Answer: As I will say at no point will the fighter go FULL initiative since that means he wouldn’t have enough feats and such for using that initiative to win (ie kill/incapacitate the wizard).
Answer: Yea well kinda with the seppeku sniper samurai build which can only using average values kill the wizard that build still with everything else has a great initiative that could lead to it kinda being a 50/50 on who wins initiative though in all honesty if wizard goes full initiative for who goes first the wizard is favoured to a great degree.
Answer: hahaha I see you missed something nope even if wizard goes full tank the seppuku sniper samurai can deal an average of like over 300ish damage (off the top of my head) so tank wizard is kinda of a no go.
Answer: Which brings me to my previous point that it’s not a 50/50 more like 60/40 wizards favour or something like that.
Answer: YEP and not to mention magic items add to many variables and added rules and such for the white room.
"the wizard usually loses"
mostly my fault for accidently using repetition and then similarly accidently breaking said repetition with no warning.
I did actually see that sniper samurai build and I tried for a good while to see if i could update the tank wizard with TCoE but the answer was basically no. (Edit: TDLR of my attempts, medium armored feat is the only way to get shield prof. Even if I was a better builder I doubt I would be able to squeeze enough effective HP to out-tank samurai without a level in fighter)
You and Optimus probably right on it being more towards wizard's favor if both go full initiative, the wizard has more tools for doing so, and the fighter would be sacrificing offensive dpr while the wizard wouldn't be.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Answer: Yea I tried to but even with hobgoblin (or dwarven races) abjuration tank builds using Dex and con only it still doesn’t matter as the seppuku sniper samurai just deals TOO MUCH DAMAGE of which I find kinda funny tbh.
As for the repetition thingy don’t think much about it.
Answer: Yep since the fighter needs to not only have huge NOVA but also initiative he has to compromise from either and choose so he can win buuuuuuut the only exception (kinda) is the seppuku sniper samurai as he has not only a respectable initiative +10 but also lucky so while he doesn’t have the best initiative he could get he still has enough to be at least close if not up to par when against certain other non satyr initiative chronurgist tank builds. But as I have said the wizard as he only needs to have a certain spells to win not sacrificing feats or ASI’s he has a larger opportunity to get what he needs to have the highest initiative possible from 20 Dex, Alert, lucky and etc.