I don’t know why people keep on thinking it is a 50/50 it’s really not it more like 65/35 wizards favour or like OptimusGrimus said it being 70/30 with wizards favour.
Although what if the fighter as I said used the Hermit background and have the Discovery be something like Elven Ranged Battlefield Tactics choosing Custom Lineage for some unique elf race and gain Elven Accuracy via the affinity for it (Elf Blood) and the research (Discovery). Since doing so would mean you would get an extra feat without the need to sacrifice anything from the build besides perhaps some secondary stats but who cares all you need is Dexterity really and some other mediocre stats for scars and such.
I would agree with that. The wizard wins every time they win initiative. Wizard will win if anything goes wrong for the fighter and they don't kill the wizard in the first turn. Basically, IF the wizard gets a turn...the fighter is losing imo. Fighter absolutely HAS to win initiative and win in the first round (which should be do-able with Action Surge and low hp for a wizard). So not sure of the percentages, but I'm betting wizards win more than 50% of the time. Not sure it's as high as 70%, but I will buy more than 50%.
I don’t know why people keep on thinking it is a 50/50 it’s really not it more like 65/35 wizards favour or like OptimusGrimus said it being 70/30 with wizards favour.
Although what if the fighter as I said used the Hermit background and have the Discovery be something like Elven Ranged Battlefield Tactics choosing Custom Lineage for some unique elf race and gain Elven Accuracy via the affinity for it (Elf Blood) and the research (Discovery). Since doing so would mean you would get an extra feat without the need to sacrifice anything from the build besides perhaps some secondary stats but who cares all you need is Dexterity really and some other mediocre stats for scars and such.
Is Discovery some obscure mechanic found within one of the wildemount books/ fisban's guide to dragons or is it some homebrew stuff or what?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don’t know why people keep on thinking it is a 50/50 it’s really not it more like 65/35 wizards favour or like OptimusGrimus said it being 70/30 with wizards favour.
Although what if the fighter as I said used the Hermit background and have the Discovery be something like Elven Ranged Battlefield Tactics choosing Custom Lineage for some unique elf race and gain Elven Accuracy via the affinity for it (Elf Blood) and the research (Discovery). Since doing so would mean you would get an extra feat without the need to sacrifice anything from the build besides perhaps some secondary stats but who cares all you need is Dexterity really and some other mediocre stats for scars and such.
I would agree with that. The wizard wins every time they win initiative. Wizard will win if anything goes wrong for the fighter and they don't kill the wizard in the first turn. Basically, IF the wizard gets a turn...the fighter is losing imo. Fighter absolutely HAS to win initiative and win in the first round (which should be do-able with Action Surge and low hp for a wizard). So not sure of the percentages, but I'm betting wizards win more than 50% of the time. Not sure it's as high as 70%, but I will buy more than 50%.
Well yeah, becuase any completely fair whiteroom scenario we set up is by design going to give an edge to the wizard, who is all about a limited yet broad set of long rest resources instead of the fighter whose design is all about passive features and short rest resources.
It is sort of unavoidable really, it's suprising that there even are scenarios where the fighter can win in the first place
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Is Discovery some obscure mechanic found within one of the wildemount books/ fisban's guide to dragons or is it some homebrew stuff or what?
Answer: Nope it is not obscure it is just a background feature found in the players handbook it’s nothing new and it reads as follows:
“The quiet seclusion of your extended hermitage gave you access to a unique and powerful discovery. The exact nature of this revelation depends on the nature of your seclusion. It might be a great truth about the cosmos, the deities, the powerful beings of the outer planes, or the forces of nature. It could be a site that no one else has ever seen. You might have uncovered a fact that has long been forgotten, or unearthed some relic of the past that could rewrite history. It might be information that would be damaging to the people who or consigned you to exile, and hence the reason for your return to society.
Work with your DM to determine the details of your discovery and its impact on the campaign.”
As for the options it has it is quite expansive. As for which one fits best for your Discovery to know Elven Accuracy I would say it is the I bolded. And remember if you do the one I choose and also Choose custom Lineage and make your self some offspring type of elf like I don’t maybe an Elf-Orc as it would fit the being exiled and the fact why you would known Elven Accuracy if you did like I said “Elven Archery Skills” as your Discovery.
PS: The Hermit background is very interesting in the fact that it gives so many options akin to the Knight background in that it adds something unique that gives the ability for a multitude of choices. As getting RETAINERS with one being a squire (noble stats), and two others being servants (commoner stats) is very helpful.
Since I find it kinda dumb that I messed up my first post and did a revision post imma just put them into one final (final) post for clarity and uniformities sake so here it is and imma preface with the “I am no math genius nor am I some perfect build maker” as such there are bound to be some places where improvements could be made.
Class: Fighter, Level 20, Subclass: Samurai
Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to hit for ranged weapons)
Proficiencies: Some of the Mains ones are Arcana, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, and I guess Stealth since why not.
Race: Half-elf (Tasha’s to change scores) or Custom Lineage if you deem that making you an elf makes you able to acquire Elven Accuracy and another feat.
Ability Score Increases/Feats: Alert (+5 to initiative), Elven Accuracy (+1 to Dex, Triple Adv.), Piercer (+1 to Dex), Gunner (+1 to Dex, Firearm Prof.), Fey Touched (+1 to Cha, Hex, Misty Step), Sharpshooter (-5 to hit, +10 dmg), Lucky (3 Rerolls).
Final Ability Scores: 16, 20, 9, 12, 8, 14
Equipment: Starting Equipment you take a musket for your starting martial weapon and spend all of your gold and coins for ammo and either than that I don’t really know what else you could do either than try to buy some potions/poison/item that you could drop during your turn as you don’t really need much else.
The Plan: Win initiative. Walk up to the wizard cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) making him choose either to Counterspell it or save his reaction for casting Shield. Then you proceed to knock the wizard prone by replacing one of your first attacks with shove. After he is shoved due to Sharpshooter and Gunner when you are within 5ft you aren’t at disadvantage or anything In fact you are at triple advantage (Elven Accuracy) at +7 to hit (you use sharpshooter for the -5 to hit, +10 to dmg). Then after firing the first volley you commit suicide/seppuku using your last attack to activate Strength before Death for another turn and continue your volley on the still prone foe. If you kill the wizard early you can (if you can) use second wind or heal to make sure you don’t start bleeding out and die.
How it Plays Out:
The fighter wins Initiative as he has a +10 and Lucky (It unlikely but for the sake of the build I assume we go first as otherwise it would be quite boring). At the start of the match the fighter was holding the Arcane Focus/Material Components for Hex.
Turn One:
Movement walk towards the wizard. Bonus action cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) waiting for the wizard to counterspell it or not counting on the shield spell. At this point we have deviation of paths I will showcase both outcomes at the end. Action: Attack x 4, First attack is a shove at +9 against a wizard (+Lucky) we assume a win but since for extra safety to make sure the samurai absolutely shoves the wizard I will assume he uses TWO attacks for this instance even though the wizard is no doubt not strong. Having two remaining attacks they both target the wizard but with rapid strike it instead becomes three attacks (2 at triple the other at no adv.). Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, the first three target the wizard. The last remaining attack is used for seppuku. Reaction Strength Before Death Extra Turn.
Turn Two: Strength before Death
Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard along with one rapid strike. Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard. Bonus Action can be used for second wind or something else.
All Attacks Made: 2 Shoves, 2 Rapid Strikes, 13 triple advantage attacks, 1 Seppuku. Since
Each Attack is at 1d12 (6.5) + 5 + 10 [+1d6 (3.5) if have Hex] damage, averaging 21.5 damage without hex and 25 damage with Hex. With 13 triple attacks and two rapid strikes accounting for only damage it come out to either 332.5 (No Hex) or 375 (With Hex). And mind this is even without Piercer or Crits playing into account (just saying from merely the attacks alone you roll a total of 41 dice so if the odds of a natural 20 are well 1 in 20 you have great odds for getting 2 crits). And if you add the 2 crits to the mix the numbers change to 335.5 and 395 respectively.
Also mind to make my life easier I’mma just say that both the rapid strikes are the crits as it makes doing the chance to hit/average damage thingy way more annoying.
Chance to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 395 = 359.005625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 395 = 329.281875 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.657 x 395 = 259.515 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.488 x 395 = 192.76 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:” AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 335.5 = 304.9275625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 335.5 = 279.6811875 aver. dmg
Once again i’m no math genius but these are some numbers and keep in mind these number would actually be higher since I have stuff like Piercer, Lucky, and such. Also just saying as a Knight you have a squire (stats of noble) and two servants (state of commoners) under your command additionally say if you choose the Hermit background you could perhaps have your Discovery become “The ways of the Elves & Archery” or something as such so you can gain access to Elven Accuracy on another race like say Vumen or Custom Lineage. The possibilities are endless especially if you become Custom Lineage with access to Elven Accuracy (say from being a Hermit) since like the Vumen you get an additional feat as such you could get even more power!!!! And that is just the tip of the iceberg!
PS: Remember I sacrificed an attack for the second shove for “Insurance” that the wizard would be prone so if you instead act as if the first shove did the trick (as it most likely would) that gives you even more damage as you free up an attack!
A Harengon Chronurgy or War Magic Wizard, will get his/her proficiency bonus +6, his Int modifier +5 and at least a +3 from DEX, if he/she takes Alert also, as you did, that's a +19 to initiative, Lucky would also be on the table for them also.
Add to that, Chronurgy can just make you be lower than them on the initiative, with Convergent Future. They will be at least one over your roll, no matter what, even if they failed on the die roll.
School of Divination, can choose your initiative die roll for you with Portent. Likely ensuring the fighter's failure. Portent happens AFTER the final die roll of the initiative is chosen and replaces your roll.
The wizard has a whole number of ways to win the initiative, including replacing your rolls.
Another random thought, someone might of actually said this already I forgot but
Wizard: War Caster + Polearm Master, casts Shocking Grasp the second the fighter gets into range. If the attack hits the fighter instantly dies, and can't use Strength Before Death.
Your fighter probably has like 17 AC (Studded + 5DEX), against +11 (+5 INT + 6 Prof), so that's a 75% chance instantly KOing this build.
The initiative build posted above works with -2 feats (no it doesn't) (You can sacrifice Lucky though, so you have 2 ASIs (alert, warcaster, polearm master) which is enough to max INT & get 16 DEX if you start with 17 INT 15 DEX)
So your wizard could both beat the samurai with +19 initiative, and have a 75% chance to instaKO samurai even if they lose initiative.
Edit: List of all the possible winning moves against the samurai.
1. Warcaster + Polearm Master + Shocking Grasph
2. Hellish Rebuke (not as effective)
3. Samurai just misses Seppuku (see Chronurgy wizard who can force a missed seppuku, although at the cost of no shield/counterspell)
4. Just plain initiative.
5. As always, any form of prep (Contingency + basically anything, dimension door 500 ft away for example)
Another random thought, someone might of actually said this already I forgot but
Wizard: War Caster + Polearm Master, casts Shocking Grasp the second the fighter gets into range. If the attack hits the fighter instantly dies, and can't use Strength Before Death.
Answer: I have already said this as in I have already proposed the Warcaster/Polearm master combo plenty of times.
As for the using shocking grasp (as opposed to other spells) remember doing so means that the fighter gets hex on you and you don’t have the shield spell up so that means the fighter even with only like say 8ish attacks with the lowered AC (no shield spell active) and hex he still will be doing a large amount of damage so don’t count him out so soon.
Your fighter probably has like 17 AC (Studded + 5DEX), against +11 (+5 INT + 6 Prof), so that's a 75% chance instantly KOing this build.
Answer: Remember Polearm master is when they enter your reach so you make that attack before they will so even if you hit they can change their strat to not do seppuku and that means they get more attacks freed up.
The initiative build posted above works with -2 feats (no it doesn't) (You can sacrifice Lucky though, so you have 2 ASIs (alert, warcaster, polearm master) which is enough to max INT & get 16 DEX if you start with 17 INT 15 DEX)
Answer: Buuuuuuuuuut lucky is so good especially since it can help with initiative, Polearm master Warcaster reaction attacks, saving throws, like everything that is why it is so good on the fighter or wizard.
So your wizard could both beat the samurai with +19 initiative, and have a 75% chance to instaKO samurai even if they lose initiative.
Answer: High initiative sure but Insta KO no…
Edit: List of all the possible winning moves against the samurai.
1. Warcaster + Polearm Master + Shocking Grasph
2. Hellish Rebuke (not as effective)
3. Samurai just misses Seppuku (see Chronurgy wizard who can force a missed seppuku, although at the cost of no shield/counterspell)
4. Just plain initiative.
5. As always, any form of prep (Contingency + basically anything, dimension door 500 ft away for example)
Answer: As for 1. it can work but I recommend a different spell to stop the fighter. For 2. Not worth mentioning as is just to weak and requires reaction so less effective. 3. Is it an attack tho it’s literally just suicide in the guise of attack (see “PS” for different suicide methods). For 4. Yep that’s one way and if not the most important only second to say reaction builds (Polearm master/war caster). 5. Yep having time to prep especially for wizard is a death sentence for all.
PS: Remember since the fighter uses an attack to do seppuku what if instead be just drops (free action) a weapon into his mouth or just have the weapon already “equipped” in his throat (his throat acting as a sheathe) so the fighter could just kill himself by bending over (using movement if he needs to but of course he most definitely does not need to use movement to do so) rending his insides with the blade. Doing this strategy would free up an attack.
The whole point of the Shocking Grasp thing was that in order to do seppuku the fighter would have to be at a extraordinary low hp by RAW, as such Shocking Grasp would one-shot (as it does more damage than a single fighter stab), and you can't Strength Before Death because no reaction.
The whole "seppuku at max health" thing is a little iffy. If we start relying on non-RAW tactics to very weird stuff, like for instance would having a sword down your throat significantly hamper your ability to do... basically anything? Can the wizard just take a PAM attack to just knock the sword down your throat to the same effect (would trigger Strength Before Death)? Whose to say doing such a thing would even kill a max hp fighter? You have like, almost 24x the health of a commoner by this point, if me sending lightning down your throat wouldn't kill you, who is to the say this would?
Also the image of a person running at you with a longbow and a sword literally inside his mouth blade pointed towards their throat is hilarious.
Edit: If your worried about Lucky, which yeah I can see why, the samurai build does have it, then you can drop INT to 18 for it. Initiative of +18 is still good, and 70% chance shocking grasp hits.
In fact, that's probably way better cause lucky can help with both. That 70% chance with reroll is prob better than 75%, and same with initiative (better if you can somehow get disadvantage on either check and do the lucky triple advantage cheese).
Also does a fighter taking time to knock himself down to 1 hit point cause as prep? Cause if so then the wizard probably has a lot to say about that.
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative (and before you tell me there was entire posts about that, How many people literally focus their build on initiative). And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative. And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
There was a build in the thread earlier with a wizard with 227 hp.
Also alert feat for wizard plus Chrono +INT to initiative means wizard likely goes first.
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative. And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
There was a build in the thread earlier with a wizard with 227 hp.
Also alert feat for wizard plus Chrono +INT to initiative means wizard likely goes first.
Ok. I'm just saying though
A: I only know the PHB subclasses and all the fighter ones so I don't know about chrono wizards or any of that mumbo jumbo. I'm calculating the wizard features by the traditions in the PHB.
B: How many wizard soley focus on getting 227 HP? A fighter with all the average dice rolls, 20 con, hill dwarf, and tough hits around 284 HP so the wizard can't talk.
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When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative. And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
There was a build in the thread earlier with a wizard with 227 hp.
Also alert feat for wizard plus Chrono +INT to initiative means wizard likely goes first.
Ok. I'm just saying though
A: I only know the PHB subclasses and all the fighter ones so I don't know about chrono wizards or any of that mumbo jumbo. I'm calculating the wizard features by the traditions in the PHB.
B: How many wizard soley focus on getting 227 HP? A fighter with all the average dice rolls, 20 con, hill dwarf, and tough hits around 284 HP so the wizard can't talk.
Sure but the wizard doesn't need to worry about the HP of the fighter... Read up on the force age+sickening radiance combo... You kill them with exhaustion.
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative. And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
There was a build in the thread earlier with a wizard with 227 hp.
Also alert feat for wizard plus Chrono +INT to initiative means wizard likely goes first.
Ok. I'm just saying though
A: I only know the PHB subclasses and all the fighter ones so I don't know about chrono wizards or any of that mumbo jumbo. I'm calculating the wizard features by the traditions in the PHB.
B: How many wizard soley focus on getting 227 HP? A fighter with all the average dice rolls, 20 con, hill dwarf, and tough hits around 284 HP so the wizard can't talk.
Sure but the wizard doesn't need to worry about the HP of the fighter... Read up on the force age+sickening radiance combo... You kill them with exhaustion.
If nothing else forecage only has a range of 100ft, and an archer samurai can still bombard from 150ft away, at the cost of 8 less damage (longbow). Another thing, An archer samurai can use peircer as well, to increase the damage with longbow to 170.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative. And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
There was a build in the thread earlier with a wizard with 227 hp.
Also alert feat for wizard plus Chrono +INT to initiative means wizard likely goes first.
Ok. I'm just saying though
A: I only know the PHB subclasses and all the fighter ones so I don't know about chrono wizards or any of that mumbo jumbo. I'm calculating the wizard features by the traditions in the PHB.
B: How many wizard soley focus on getting 227 HP? A fighter with all the average dice rolls, 20 con, hill dwarf, and tough hits around 284 HP so the wizard can't talk.
Sure but the wizard doesn't need to worry about the HP of the fighter... Read up on the force age+sickening radiance combo... You kill them with exhaustion.
If nothing else forecage only has a range of 100ft, and an archer samurai can still bombard from 150ft away, at the cost of 8 less damage (longbow). Another thing, An archer samurai can use peircer as well, to increase the damage with longbow to 170.
So they get to start that far away huh?
Seems like they have to keep buffing the fighter to even have a shot ....
If we get whatever then the wizard can have contingency cast that sets up a wall of force around them if they get attacked.
Boom they have 10 min to cast any spell (like wish to get a simulacra) or even just leave via teleport if they don't want to even deal with the situation.
Overall given all the tools there is less than 10% chance the fighter gets close to winning
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative. And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
There was a build in the thread earlier with a wizard with 227 hp.
Also alert feat for wizard plus Chrono +INT to initiative means wizard likely goes first.
Ok. I'm just saying though
A: I only know the PHB subclasses and all the fighter ones so I don't know about chrono wizards or any of that mumbo jumbo. I'm calculating the wizard features by the traditions in the PHB.
B: How many wizard soley focus on getting 227 HP? A fighter with all the average dice rolls, 20 con, hill dwarf, and tough hits around 284 HP so the wizard can't talk.
Sure but the wizard doesn't need to worry about the HP of the fighter... Read up on the force age+sickening radiance combo... You kill them with exhaustion.
If nothing else forecage only has a range of 100ft, and an archer samurai can still bombard from 150ft away, at the cost of 8 less damage (longbow). Another thing, An archer samurai can use peircer as well, to increase the damage with longbow to 170.
So they get to start that far away huh?
Seems like they have to keep buffing the fighter to even have a shot ....
If we get whatever then the wizard can have contingency cast that sets up a wall of force around them if they get attacked.
Boom they have 10 min to cast any spell (like wish to get a simulacra) or even just leave via teleport if they don't want to even deal with the situation.
Overall given all the tools there is less than 10% chance the fighter gets close to winning
Arcane archer curving shot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Ability Score Increases/Feats: ASI +2 to Int, ASI +2 to Int, Alert (+5 to initiative), Lucky (3 rerolls), Martial Adept (Ambush: 1d6 to Initiative).
Final Ability Scores: 8, 16, 16, 20, 8, 8
Side Note: If you want you could switch the Int and Dex so it becomes 20 Dex, and 16 Int as the wizard probably values a higher AC more the spell DC since you have things like force cage and maze which don’t require a high DC along with Polymorphs and such.
Total Bonus: +19 + 1d6 (With Advantage and Lucky for up to 3 rolls to choose from). An average 1d6 roll is 3.5 so we can assume the final average base score is +22.5 to Initiative. But we still forget the average dice roll the average dice roll for 1d20 is 10.5, for 2d20 it is 13.82 and since we have Chronal Shift and Lucky we actually can roll up to 3d20 for an average roll of 15.49 rounded let’s say 15.5. So now we have an average and the min and max are easy.
Minimum Initiative Roll: 21
Average Initiative Roll: 38
Maximum Initiative Roll: 45
But by doing this build the wizard has an AC of 16 (Mage Armor: 13 + 3 from Dex, and at most 21 if he chooses not to use Chronal Shift for the average bonus of only like 1.62 to initiative and instead cast shield). While his health is at a paltry like 132.5 hit points (easily killable for probably even a normal fighter battlemaster build and well within range of the samurai).
PS: Remember that Initiative is an ability check as such Convergent Future would be able to affect it and alter it to “succeed” (get the highest roll above others) and since initiative is very much akin to say contested ability checks but instead with more rolls (most of the time) it is primed to work. Although since we already had the ‘does convergent future work on initiative’ discussion and even so I still stand by that it would work I won’t go further into that argument for this post.
While the Half-Elf, Samurai has a like +10 with Lucky giving an average of roll of 13.82 + 10 for around (rounded up) 24. With a min of 11, average of 24, and max of 30. But of course thing can be changed and shifted to where the fighter can also get a large initiative (not as great as the wizard but still remember the fighter by changing his build can still raise his initiative as shown above the wizard with this build doesn’t have much HP or a high AC so much so that it’s almost impossible to miss (unless the wizard uses shield instead of using Chronal Shift of which they in all honest don’t really need Chronal Shift due the small impact it gives).
Contingency -> Wall of Force into a dome shape ("You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels.").
The shot fails if there's no viable path to the target.
Then go and either setup or just start casting spells.
You can cast Tiny Hut to prevent people from teleporting in (or if you don't have a minute just cast Forcecage on yourself, you can still cast spells in a forcecage it just can't go through the cage, and forcecage only allows teleportation out of it). However these spells limit your to only doing prep cause you can't target the fighter who is outside of the dome with any spells. You could, of course, just cast Teleportation Circle or just prepare a lengthy set of spells to prep yourself with for once the thing ends.
Your minimum Concentration saving throw is 15, meaning the fighter has to do more than 31 damage per attack to even have a chance of breaking concentration, your AC is 25 (30 with shield), you keep all the good wizard stuff like casting spells, Song of Defense, +5 damage (all dragon attacks count as melee weapon attacks except obv. the breath weapon), prof in INT saving throws, and ofc all the prep spells I listed before.
Even if somehow the fighter does like 32 damage and you roll a nat 1, you got legendary resistances. I mean, this is excluding feats & racial bonuses too, you probably have advantage on that concentration save cause warcaster.
Alt. Ancient Brass Dragon sacrifices offense (and only a a minimum Concentration saving throw of 14) for more options, or any other good Shapechange. There's probably more prep spells I forgot to include as well.
For reference the Samurai build posted earlier by De4thkn1ght does 25 avg damage per attack with Hex or 33 max damage. With a 33 damage blow, the dragon would have to roll a natural 1 to fail that concentration check. Assuming the wizard ddn't take Warcaster.
Of course, this strategy is more fun then viable, if you don't have Contingency for some reason then just go for the initiative build. Also if your fighting a EK then Dispel Magic is going to destroy a shapechange build lol. Against a samurai your probably fine though.
Will make a proper shapechange build later maybe ish
Answer: You know what that does right? In this that arcane archer feature is irrelevant. As the feature reads out:
”At 7th level, you learn how to direct an errant arrow toward a new target. When you make an attack roll with a magic arrow and miss, you can use a bonus action to reroll the attack roll against a different target within 60 feet of the original target.“
So unless your fighting multiple opponents this feature doesn’t do anything…
Additionally 4yulming4 the Bladesinger build you have requires you acquiring a turn to activate your Bladesong and cast your spell as such why do that when you can do anything else as the Bladesinger build has a key weakness it requires a bonus action to activate the Bladesong as such the build is weaker when compared to the Tank wizard and incredibly weak compared to the initiative wizard in that the initiative wizard would easily be able to defeat your Bladesinger… also remember there is no prep and the characters are in a white room as such the build is even more iffy and if we give the Bladesinger prep the wizard by the merit of bring a wizard they would win with or without your Bladesinger build.
Otherwise I hope to see your build in the feature ;).
PS: Though remember concentration can be broken by ways that aren’t damage most notably are incapcitated, and environmental hazards and such.
So unless your fighting multiple opponents this feature doesn’t do anything…
Additionally 4yulming4 the Bladesinger build you have requires you acquiring a turn to activate your Bladesong and cast your spell as such why do that when you can do anything else as the Bladesinger build has a key weakness it requires a bonus action to activate the Bladesong as such the build is weaker when compared to the Tank wizard and incredibly weak compared to the initiative wizard in that the initiative wizard would easily be able to defeat your Bladesinger… also remember there is no prep and the characters are in a white room as such the build is even more iffy and if we give the Bladesinger prep the wizard by the merit of bring a wizard they would win with or without your Bladesinger build.
Otherwise I hope to see your build in the feature ;).
PS: Though remember concentration can be broken by ways that aren’t damage most notably are incapcitated, and environmental hazards and such.
Bladesinger idea I've had for a while, but never thought about it in the context of a 1v1 until this reddit post.
The feature the RedKnuckles is referring to I presume is not Curving Shot but rather Seeking Arrow which does indeed do what the person thinks it does. As I stated though, it can be easily countered by Wall of Force as a dome.
As for my build,
The idea is basically that If you win initiative you can easily gain prep via Wall of Force, Resilient Sphere, or for maximum protection Forcecage on yourself; also that allowing the Contingency removes the need to win initiative as it can be used to cast one of these instant prep spells (exc. forcecage but you don't really need 1 hour of prep).
If you remove Contingency, or want to end the battle quickly, then yeah this is a garbage build go for a initiative one. But you already made one so here we are, I'm just going to make a pure Shapechange build and toss initiative down the drain for funzies. (Again, yeah I understand you want to do no Contingency & whiteroom, but that limits it down to basically just your initiative build or the tank build, and this isn't a serious build anyways).
It is noteworthy you can use the same resilient sphere spell/wall of force dome in your initiative build too (after you win initative) to allow for prep. Both of these of course use concentration though.
Environmental Hazards are not a concern, as this build doesn't rely on circumstantial methods of having decent concentration saving throws like Warcaster (which only applies to damage). While it does have Warcaster, it's CON saving throw is high enough to where it doesn't rely on it. Actually, I made a slip up in the previous post, this build has a concentration saving throw of +19 not +14 (+8 CON, +6 Dragon prof., +5 bladesong). Not even spells like Sleet Storm will have a chance at breaking concentration.
Stun is a valid concern, but that is why Legendary Resistances & Lucky exists. Besides, Ancient White Dragons are proficient in all saving throws except STR & INT (Wizard having INT saving throw prof, and STR being a nonissue with +8 STR).
Build (fully optimized)
Level 20 Wizard, Bladesinger
background and stuff doesn't really matter, skills: Athletics, the other 5 skills are up to you. My suggestion is Investigation, Intimidation, Arcana (why not), Persuasion, Insight but it doesn't really matter. Perception is a good skill but will be overridden by Shapechange, it does make for a easier progression which this build lacks). For reference it's 4 skills normally, +1 cause skill expert, +1 cause Custom Origin.
Race: Custom Origin, +2 INT alt Half Elf grabbing +2 INT +1 WIS & CHA, if you hate Custom Origin. Remove Skill Expert, replace Martial Adept for +1 INT & CHA. You lose the manuevers & expertise in exchange granting a +1 to your CHA save. Your final Stat Array would be 8, 8, 8, 20, 16, 18. Half Elf also grants advantage on Charm effects which is nice. In the end not worth it in my opinion as Martial Adept is brutal with dragon form + Skill Expert.
ASIs/Feats: Skill Expert (Athletics, +1 INT), +2 INT, +1 WIS & CHA, Martial Adept (Menacing Attack, Grappling Strike), Warcaster, Lucky This is in no particular order, except Skill Expert being the Custom Origin feat for that 18 INT at level 1. Primary focused around buffing our mental saving throws which is our main weakness. Can drop Warcaster for +2 WIS or CHA. Menacing Attack isn't really necessary and can be replaced as well.
Starting Point Buy Array: STR 8 (-1) DEX 8 (-1) CON 8 (-1) INT 15 (+2) WIS 15 (+2) CHA 15 (+2) As hilarious as this completely unbalanced stat array is, I'm still using it cause optimizer going to optimize. There's a "actually decent progression" build for a reason and this is why.
Stats at 1st Level: STR 8 (-1) DEX 8 (-1) CON 8 (-1) INT 18 (+3) WIS 15 (+3) CHA 15 (+3)
Final Stats: STR 8 (-1) DEX 8 (-1) CON 8 (-1) INT 20 (+5) WIS 16 (+2) CHA 16 (+2)
Health: nonexistant. AC: not good enough it's actually 62 and AC of 11 (12 with Mage Armor, 17 with Bladesinger, 22 with Shield
Saves: STR -1, DEX -1, CON -1, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +2 Spells aren't listed. All the spells the build uses are below and you can easily get all of them on a level 20 wizard.
Early Progression: Pray to whatever god to curse me for thinking a DEX 8 CON 8 bladesinger would have any form of decent progression.
Stay near the backline as a traditional wizard, using bladesong to try to maintain concentration & survive. Always have Absorb Elements. Always. First round is spell + bladesong. On other rounds you can utilize Magic Stone + [Tooltip Not Found] or some other cantrip. Just be a normal wizard with a intense focus on positioning and defense.
Level 20 Battle VS Fighter Plan, let's be real this was called a Contingency build for a reason. Winning Initiative is not a option for this build (-1). Contingency Resilient Sphere grants you 10 turns to prep.
Cast the following non-concentration buff spells using the following spell slots: 1st: Longstrider, 2nd: Mirror Image, 3: Blink, 4: Fire Shield, 7: Crown of Stars, 8: False Life If there's any more decent buff spells I've missed, my bad. Mind Blank was going to be the 8th level pick, however few fighters do psychic damage. It is always a option however. Also was considering Fortune's Favor but we aren't a dunamancy wizard.
Then end Resilient Sphere by casting Shapechange into a Ancient White Dragon, BA Bladesong. Feel the power surge through you.
Health: 333 (40 to 43 temp hit points), AC 20 (25 with Bladesong, 30 with Shield). 3 Mirror Images (AC 10), and don't forget Blink.
Saves: STR +8, DEX +6, CON +14, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +9. Concentration Saving Throw is +19 (with advantage if the save is a result from damage).
Skills: Athletics +20, Perception +13, Stealth +6, whatever skills you picked. woah dragons have expertise in perception, the more you know. Sadly Shapechange says that when both you and the dragon are both prof you compare your bonus to the base statblock's bonus, so I can't stack expertise + my superior WIS.
Speed: 60 ft., burrow 50 ft., fly 90 ft., swim 50 ft. (Can dash for 180 ft of flying movement and you have a 20 ft reach/90 ft breath) If someone tries to flee, dash for 180 ft of flying movement and hit them with that Warcaster to Hold Person. Or just use a 20 ft tail attack (+11 to hit & 22 damage).
Damage: +14 to hit, three attacks: 33, 20, 20, or cold breath DC 22 CON for 72. Bonus Action (Crown of Stars): +11 to hit, 26 (4d12). Fire Shield: 9 (2d8) per melee attack. 1 maneuver, Grappling Strike (Athletics +20 + 1d6) against ranged fighters to prevent them from running away, or against melee fighters to keep them 20 ft away and in doing so forcing them to use ranged/thrown weapons. Note for damage I'm adding on Song of Victory because these all count as "melee weapon attacks" except the cold breath & spell stuff obv. Sadly bladesinger Extra Attack doesn't stack with multiattack, and doing a bite + cantrip is probably way worse than bite + 2 claw. You can grapple a ranged fighter at 5 ft to grant disadvantage, but they probably have something like CBE to negate that. Can go for Menacing Attack too with a DC of 22 but not as good as a effect in my opinion as it lasts one round. You do have Frightful Presence but it has a pretty low DC of 16 which a Fighter can probably pass with Indominable. Esp. a samurai that has prof in WIS saving throws.
You can also continue spellcasting (although there is the question of if a dragon can use a spellcasting focus, I assume yes, but yeah I can see why that might be shaky.), and you have lucky. Even without a focus you can still cast Shield which is probably all you need to cast.
Build but with actually decent progression:
Level 20 Wizard, Bladesinger
Main difference is rearrangement of Stats, in shapechanged form we rely on Ancient White Dragon saving throw prof. rather than our own. Allowing us to get DEX & CON at the cost of rip CHA saving throws. Also early game Fey Touched for extra Misty Steps.
Background still doesn't matter. Skills: Perception, Investigation, Athletics, your choice. My suggestion remains the same. Insight/Intimidation, Arcana (why not). Losing a skill here because I want Darkvision from Custom Origin.
Race: Custom Origin, +2 INT See above Half Elf. Grab darkvision instead of the skill. Technically for this build you can also go Variant Human, replacing the Skill Expert stat boost for +1 INT, and having the same skills. But 18 INT at level 1 is nice & I believe darkvision is better than a skill proficiency.
ASIs/Feats: Fey Touched: (+1 INT, Command), Lucky, Warcaster, +2 INT, Skill Expert (Athletics, +1 WIS), Martial Adept (Menacing Attack, Grappling Strike) Spells are now in order of when I would take them in a normal build. Gift of Alacrity is a better spell but it's dunamancy. You can swap Skill Expert for Perception, which is probably more thematic and allows you to survive longer,. Can also swap Martial Adept for Alert as surprise kills. But grappling strike as dragon form is pretty nice and you get your 5th feat at level 18 anyways and by then you already have shapechange.
Starting Point Buy Array: STR 8 (-1) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1) INT 15 (+2) WIS 13 (+1) CHA 10 (+0)
Stats at 1st Level: STR 8 (-1) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1) INT 18 (+4) WIS 13 (+1) CHA 10 (+0)
Final Stats: STR 8 (-1) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1) INT 20 (+5) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 10 (+0) Alt. swap WIS & CHA, as our WIS saves will always be okay from prof. bonus and a +2 helps for those rare Banishment saves.
Saves: STR -1, DEX +2, CON +1, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +0
Early Progression:
Traditional wizard playstyle, stay in the back, your main attack cantrip is still Magic Stone + any other cantrip. Again Bladesong takes priority over Magic Stone. Fey Touched grants good survivability with Misty Step, combined with Lucky should keep you alive. Bladesong will grant okay AC & with Warcaster should allow you to actually survive concentration checks (+6). Note that with your decent HP & AC you can survive without using bladesong which is great because esp. at lower levels you have limited uses of it and it recharges on a LR.
Level 20 Battle VS Fighter Plan, It's the same. Still not winning initiative (+2).
Health: 333 (40 to 43 temp hit points), AC 20 (25 with Bladesong, 30 with Shield). 3 Mirror Images (AC 10), and don't forget Blink.
Saves: STR +8, DEX +6, CON +14, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +6. Concentration Saving Throw is +19 (with advantage if the save is a result from damage).
Edit: Fixed formatting & some grammar stuff, D&D Beyond apparently isn't supporting multiquotes for me right now. Weird. also some stats got messed up as I was switched between Half Elf & Custom Origin builds, fixed now
I would agree with that. The wizard wins every time they win initiative. Wizard will win if anything goes wrong for the fighter and they don't kill the wizard in the first turn. Basically, IF the wizard gets a turn...the fighter is losing imo. Fighter absolutely HAS to win initiative and win in the first round (which should be do-able with Action Surge and low hp for a wizard). So not sure of the percentages, but I'm betting wizards win more than 50% of the time. Not sure it's as high as 70%, but I will buy more than 50%.
Is Discovery some obscure mechanic found within one of the wildemount books/ fisban's guide to dragons or is it some homebrew stuff or what?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Well yeah, becuase any completely fair whiteroom scenario we set up is by design going to give an edge to the wizard, who is all about a limited yet broad set of long rest resources instead of the fighter whose design is all about passive features and short rest resources.
It is sort of unavoidable really, it's suprising that there even are scenarios where the fighter can win in the first place
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Answer: Nope it is not obscure it is just a background feature found in the players handbook it’s nothing new and it reads as follows:
“The quiet seclusion of your extended hermitage gave you access to a unique and powerful discovery. The exact nature of this revelation depends on the nature of your seclusion. It might be a great truth about the cosmos, the deities, the powerful beings of the outer planes, or the forces of nature. It could be a site that no one else has ever seen. You might have uncovered a fact that has long been forgotten, or unearthed some relic of the past that could rewrite history. It might be information that would be damaging to the people who or consigned you to exile, and hence the reason for your return to society.
Work with your DM to determine the details of your discovery and its impact on the campaign.”
As for the options it has it is quite expansive. As for which one fits best for your Discovery to know Elven Accuracy I would say it is the I bolded. And remember if you do the one I choose and also Choose custom Lineage and make your self some offspring type of elf like I don’t maybe an Elf-Orc as it would fit the being exiled and the fact why you would known Elven Accuracy if you did like I said “Elven Archery Skills” as your Discovery.
PS: The Hermit background is very interesting in the fact that it gives so many options akin to the Knight background in that it adds something unique that gives the ability for a multitude of choices. As getting RETAINERS with one being a squire (noble stats), and two others being servants (commoner stats) is very helpful.
Since I find it kinda dumb that I messed up my first post and did a revision post imma just put them into one final (final) post for clarity and uniformities sake so here it is and imma preface with the “I am no math genius nor am I some perfect build maker” as such there are bound to be some places where improvements could be made.
Class: Fighter, Level 20, Subclass: Samurai
Fighting Style: Archery (+2 to hit for ranged weapons)
Background: Knight, RETAINERS (or Hermit, Discovery)
Proficiencies: Some of the Mains ones are Arcana, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, and I guess Stealth since why not.
Race: Half-elf (Tasha’s to change scores) or Custom Lineage if you deem that making you an elf makes you able to acquire Elven Accuracy and another feat.
Base Ability Scores (Point Buy): 15, 15, 9, 11, 8, 13
Ability Scores with Racial Bonus: 16, 17, 9, 12, 8, 13
Ability Score Increases/Feats: Alert (+5 to initiative), Elven Accuracy (+1 to Dex, Triple Adv.), Piercer (+1 to Dex), Gunner (+1 to Dex, Firearm Prof.), Fey Touched (+1 to Cha, Hex, Misty Step), Sharpshooter (-5 to hit, +10 dmg), Lucky (3 Rerolls).
Final Ability Scores: 16, 20, 9, 12, 8, 14
Equipment: Starting Equipment you take a musket for your starting martial weapon and spend all of your gold and coins for ammo and either than that I don’t really know what else you could do either than try to buy some potions/poison/item that you could drop during your turn as you don’t really need much else.
The Plan: Win initiative. Walk up to the wizard cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) making him choose either to Counterspell it or save his reaction for casting Shield. Then you proceed to knock the wizard prone by replacing one of your first attacks with shove. After he is shoved due to Sharpshooter and Gunner when you are within 5ft you aren’t at disadvantage or anything In fact you are at triple advantage (Elven Accuracy) at +7 to hit (you use sharpshooter for the -5 to hit, +10 to dmg). Then after firing the first volley you commit suicide/seppuku using your last attack to activate Strength before Death for another turn and continue your volley on the still prone foe. If you kill the wizard early you can (if you can) use second wind or heal to make sure you don’t start bleeding out and die.
How it Plays Out:
The fighter wins Initiative as he has a +10 and Lucky (It unlikely but for the sake of the build I assume we go first as otherwise it would be quite boring). At the start of the match the fighter was holding the Arcane Focus/Material Components for Hex.
Turn One:
Movement walk towards the wizard. Bonus action cast Hex (Disadv. Dexterity Checks) waiting for the wizard to counterspell it or not counting on the shield spell. At this point we have deviation of paths I will showcase both outcomes at the end. Action: Attack x 4, First attack is a shove at +9 against a wizard (+Lucky) we assume a win but since for extra safety to make sure the samurai absolutely shoves the wizard I will assume he uses TWO attacks for this instance even though the wizard is no doubt not strong. Having two remaining attacks they both target the wizard but with rapid strike it instead becomes three attacks (2 at triple the other at no adv.). Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, the first three target the wizard. The last remaining attack is used for seppuku. Reaction Strength Before Death Extra Turn.
Turn Two: Strength before Death
Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard along with one rapid strike. Action Surge; Action: Attack x 4, target the wizard. Bonus Action can be used for second wind or something else.
All Attacks Made: 2 Shoves, 2 Rapid Strikes, 13 triple advantage attacks, 1 Seppuku. Since
Each Attack is at 1d12 (6.5) + 5 + 10 [+1d6 (3.5) if have Hex] damage, averaging 21.5 damage without hex and 25 damage with Hex. With 13 triple attacks and two rapid strikes accounting for only damage it come out to either 332.5 (No Hex) or 375 (With Hex). And mind this is even without Piercer or Crits playing into account (just saying from merely the attacks alone you roll a total of 41 dice so if the odds of a natural 20 are well 1 in 20 you have great odds for getting 2 crits). And if you add the 2 crits to the mix the numbers change to 335.5 and 395 respectively.
Also mind to make my life easier I’mma just say that both the rapid strikes are the crits as it makes doing the chance to hit/average damage thingy way more annoying.
Chance to Hit:
If He Choose The Hex Path: From “Turn One:”
AC of the wizard can range from 18, 20, and 23, 25.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 395 = 359.005625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 395 = 329.281875 aver. dmg
Against AC 23: 0.657 x 395 = 259.515 aver. dmg
Against AC 25: 0.488 x 395 = 192.76 aver. dmg
If He Choose The Counterspell Path: From “Turn One:”
AC of the wizard can range from 18, and 20 as he used Counterspell and therefore can’t cast the shield spell.
Against AC 18: 0.908875 x 335.5 = 304.9275625 aver. dmg
Against AC 20: 0.833625 x 335.5 = 279.6811875 aver. dmg
Once again i’m no math genius but these are some numbers and keep in mind these number would actually be higher since I have stuff like Piercer, Lucky, and such. Also just saying as a Knight you have a squire (stats of noble) and two servants (state of commoners) under your command additionally say if you choose the Hermit background you could perhaps have your Discovery become “The ways of the Elves & Archery” or something as such so you can gain access to Elven Accuracy on another race like say Vumen or Custom Lineage. The possibilities are endless especially if you become Custom Lineage with access to Elven Accuracy (say from being a Hermit) since like the Vumen you get an additional feat as such you could get even more power!!!! And that is just the tip of the iceberg!
PS: Remember I sacrificed an attack for the second shove for “Insurance” that the wizard would be prone so if you instead act as if the first shove did the trick (as it most likely would) that gives you even more damage as you free up an attack!
A Harengon Chronurgy or War Magic Wizard, will get his/her proficiency bonus +6, his Int modifier +5 and at least a +3 from DEX, if he/she takes Alert also, as you did, that's a +19 to initiative, Lucky would also be on the table for them also.
Add to that, Chronurgy can just make you be lower than them on the initiative, with Convergent Future. They will be at least one over your roll, no matter what, even if they failed on the die roll.
School of Divination, can choose your initiative die roll for you with Portent. Likely ensuring the fighter's failure. Portent happens AFTER the final die roll of the initiative is chosen and replaces your roll.
The wizard has a whole number of ways to win the initiative, including replacing your rolls.
Another random thought, someone might of actually said this already I forgot but
Wizard: War Caster + Polearm Master, casts Shocking Grasp the second the fighter gets into range. If the attack hits the fighter instantly dies, and can't use Strength Before Death.
Your fighter probably has like 17 AC (Studded + 5DEX), against +11 (+5 INT + 6 Prof), so that's a 75% chance instantly KOing this build.
The initiative build posted above works with -2 feats(no it doesn't) (You can sacrifice Lucky though, so you have 2 ASIs (alert, warcaster, polearm master) which is enough to max INT & get 16 DEX if you start with 17 INT 15 DEX)So your wizard could both beat the samurai with +19 initiative, and have a 75% chance to instaKO samurai even if they lose initiative.
Edit: List of all the possible winning moves against the samurai.
1. Warcaster + Polearm Master + Shocking Grasph
2. Hellish Rebuke (not as effective)
3. Samurai just misses Seppuku (see Chronurgy wizard who can force a missed seppuku, although at the cost of no shield/counterspell)
4. Just plain initiative.
5. As always, any form of prep (Contingency + basically anything, dimension door 500 ft away for example)
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Answer: I have already said this as in I have already proposed the Warcaster/Polearm master combo plenty of times.
As for the using shocking grasp (as opposed to other spells) remember doing so means that the fighter gets hex on you and you don’t have the shield spell up so that means the fighter even with only like say 8ish attacks with the lowered AC (no shield spell active) and hex he still will be doing a large amount of damage so don’t count him out so soon.
Answer: Remember Polearm master is when they enter your reach so you make that attack before they will so even if you hit they can change their strat to not do seppuku and that means they get more attacks freed up.
Answer: Buuuuuuuuuut lucky is so good especially since it can help with initiative, Polearm master Warcaster reaction attacks, saving throws, like everything that is why it is so good on the fighter or wizard.
Answer: High initiative sure but Insta KO no…
Answer: As for 1. it can work but I recommend a different spell to stop the fighter. For 2. Not worth mentioning as is just to weak and requires reaction so less effective. 3. Is it an attack tho it’s literally just suicide in the guise of attack (see “PS” for different suicide methods). For 4. Yep that’s one way and if not the most important only second to say reaction builds (Polearm master/war caster). 5. Yep having time to prep especially for wizard is a death sentence for all.
PS: Remember since the fighter uses an attack to do seppuku what if instead be just drops (free action) a weapon into his mouth or just have the weapon already “equipped” in his throat (his throat acting as a sheathe) so the fighter could just kill himself by bending over (using movement if he needs to but of course he most definitely does not need to use movement to do so) rending his insides with the blade. Doing this strategy would free up an attack.
The whole point of the Shocking Grasp thing was that in order to do seppuku the fighter would have to be at a extraordinary low hp by RAW, as such Shocking Grasp would one-shot (as it does more damage than a single fighter stab), and you can't Strength Before Death because no reaction.
The whole "seppuku at max health" thing is a little iffy. If we start relying on non-RAW tactics to very weird stuff, like for instance would having a sword down your throat significantly hamper your ability to do... basically anything? Can the wizard just take a PAM attack to just knock the sword down your throat to the same effect (would trigger Strength Before Death)? Whose to say doing such a thing would even kill a max hp fighter? You have like, almost 24x the health of a commoner by this point, if me sending lightning down your throat wouldn't kill you, who is to the say this would?
Also the image of a person running at you with a longbow and a sword literally inside his mouth blade pointed towards their throat is hilarious.
Edit: If your worried about Lucky, which yeah I can see why, the samurai build does have it, then you can drop INT to 18 for it. Initiative of +18 is still good, and 70% chance shocking grasp hits.
In fact, that's probably way better cause lucky can help with both. That 70% chance with reroll is prob better than 75%, and same with initiative (better if you can somehow get disadvantage on either check and do the lucky triple advantage cheese).
Also does a fighter taking time to knock himself down to 1 hit point cause as prep? Cause if so then the wizard probably has a lot to say about that.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Here is a Jeffrey thought:
Archer samurai. Use sharpshooter and fighting spirit w/heavy crossbow and action surge for 168 damage. Because of your high DEX you'll probaly win initiative (and before you tell me there was entire posts about that, How many people literally focus their build on initiative). And let's be real, what kind of wizard has more than 168 HP. Also, even with mage armour a wizard will only have 14-16 AC, and the wizard only has one reaction to cast shield. And +8 w/advantage is not to be underestimated.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
There was a build in the thread earlier with a wizard with 227 hp.
Also alert feat for wizard plus Chrono +INT to initiative means wizard likely goes first.
Ok. I'm just saying though
A: I only know the PHB subclasses and all the fighter ones so I don't know about chrono wizards or any of that mumbo jumbo. I'm calculating the wizard features by the traditions in the PHB.
B: How many wizard soley focus on getting 227 HP? A fighter with all the average dice rolls, 20 con, hill dwarf, and tough hits around 284 HP so the wizard can't talk.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
Sure but the wizard doesn't need to worry about the HP of the fighter... Read up on the force age+sickening radiance combo... You kill them with exhaustion.
If nothing else forecage only has a range of 100ft, and an archer samurai can still bombard from 150ft away, at the cost of 8 less damage (longbow). Another thing, An archer samurai can use peircer as well, to increase the damage with longbow to 170.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
So they get to start that far away huh?
Seems like they have to keep buffing the fighter to even have a shot ....
If we get whatever then the wizard can have contingency cast that sets up a wall of force around them if they get attacked.
Boom they have 10 min to cast any spell (like wish to get a simulacra) or even just leave via teleport if they don't want to even deal with the situation.
Overall given all the tools there is less than 10% chance the fighter gets close to winning
Arcane archer curving shot.
When you thought you knew about spellcasting - you played a warlock
Why are most bard colleges a pain to type? I mean bard college of valor, compare to champion or evoker. Same goes for sacred oaths: paladin oath of devotion. That's even worse.
I don't think WoCE were very creative with the rogue and ranger subclass titles. I mean ranger archeotype? Roguish archeotype? Bro! Fighters are better but still is somewhat unsatisfying compare to a monastatic tradition or sacred oath.
I was looking over how high the wizard can get their initiative and I came up with this build.
Class: Wizard, Level 20, Subclass: Chronurgy
Background: Doesn’t really matter but Knight or Hermit are both good.
Proficiencies: Some of the Mains ones are Arcana, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics, and I guess Stealth since why not.
Race: Harengon/Rabbitfolk, For Haretrigger so you can add your proficiency bonus to initiative rolls.
Base Ability Scores (Point Buy): 8, 15, 15, 15, 8, 8
Ability Scores with Racial Bonus: 8, 16, 16, 16, 8, 8
Ability Score Increases/Feats: ASI +2 to Int, ASI +2 to Int, Alert (+5 to initiative), Lucky (3 rerolls), Martial Adept (Ambush: 1d6 to Initiative).
Final Ability Scores: 8, 16, 16, 20, 8, 8
Side Note: If you want you could switch the Int and Dex so it becomes 20 Dex, and 16 Int as the wizard probably values a higher AC more the spell DC since you have things like force cage and maze which don’t require a high DC along with Polymorphs and such.
All bonuses to initiative: +3 (Dex), +5 (Int), +6 (Hare-Trigger: Proficiency), +5 (Alert), +1d6 (Martial Adept: Ambush), Reroll (Lucky), Advantage (Chronurgist: Chronal Shift).
Total Bonus: +19 + 1d6 (With Advantage and Lucky for up to 3 rolls to choose from). An average 1d6 roll is 3.5 so we can assume the final average base score is +22.5 to Initiative. But we still forget the average dice roll the average dice roll for 1d20 is 10.5, for 2d20 it is 13.82 and since we have Chronal Shift and Lucky we actually can roll up to 3d20 for an average roll of 15.49 rounded let’s say 15.5. So now we have an average and the min and max are easy.
Minimum Initiative Roll: 21
Average Initiative Roll: 38
Maximum Initiative Roll: 45
But by doing this build the wizard has an AC of 16 (Mage Armor: 13 + 3 from Dex, and at most 21 if he chooses not to use Chronal Shift for the average bonus of only like 1.62 to initiative and instead cast shield). While his health is at a paltry like 132.5 hit points (easily killable for probably even a normal fighter battlemaster build and well within range of the samurai).
PS: Remember that Initiative is an ability check as such Convergent Future would be able to affect it and alter it to “succeed” (get the highest roll above others) and since initiative is very much akin to say contested ability checks but instead with more rolls (most of the time) it is primed to work. Although since we already had the ‘does convergent future work on initiative’ discussion and even so I still stand by that it would work I won’t go further into that argument for this post.
While the Half-Elf, Samurai has a like +10 with Lucky giving an average of roll of 13.82 + 10 for around (rounded up) 24. With a min of 11, average of 24, and max of 30. But of course thing can be changed and shifted to where the fighter can also get a large initiative (not as great as the wizard but still remember the fighter by changing his build can still raise his initiative as shown above the wizard with this build doesn’t have much HP or a high AC so much so that it’s almost impossible to miss (unless the wizard uses shield instead of using Chronal Shift of which they in all honest don’t really need Chronal Shift due the small impact it gives).
Contingency -> Wall of Force into a dome shape ("You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels.").
The shot fails if there's no viable path to the target.
Then go and either setup or just start casting spells.
You can cast Tiny Hut to prevent people from teleporting in (or if you don't have a minute just cast Forcecage on yourself, you can still cast spells in a forcecage it just can't go through the cage, and forcecage only allows teleportation out of it). However these spells limit your to only doing prep cause you can't target the fighter who is outside of the dome with any spells. You could, of course, just cast Teleportation Circle or just prepare a lengthy set of spells to prep yourself with for once the thing ends.
Some viable spells to cast if your using dome wall of force is spamming polymorph into Power Word Kill, maybe cast some summons, or just Forcecage + Sickening Radiance.
There's always the fun option of going bladesinger, casting upcast False Life, Mirror Image, Blink, Fire Shield, Crown of Stars, Mind Blank, then Shapechange -> Ancient White Dragon
Your minimum Concentration saving throw is 15, meaning the fighter has to do more than 31 damage per attack to even have a chance of breaking concentration, your AC is 25 (30 with shield), you keep all the good wizard stuff like casting spells, Song of Defense, +5 damage (all dragon attacks count as melee weapon attacks except obv. the breath weapon), prof in INT saving throws, and ofc all the prep spells I listed before.
Even if somehow the fighter does like 32 damage and you roll a nat 1, you got legendary resistances. I mean, this is excluding feats & racial bonuses too, you probably have advantage on that concentration save cause warcaster.
Alt. Ancient Brass Dragon sacrifices offense (and only a a minimum Concentration saving throw of 14) for more options, or any other good Shapechange. There's probably more prep spells I forgot to include as well.
For reference the Samurai build posted earlier by De4thkn1ght does 25 avg damage per attack with Hex or 33 max damage. With a 33 damage blow, the dragon would have to roll a natural 1 to fail that concentration check. Assuming the wizard ddn't take Warcaster.
Of course, this strategy is more fun then viable, if you don't have Contingency for some reason then just go for the initiative build. Also if your fighting a EK then Dispel Magic is going to destroy a shapechange build lol. Against a samurai your probably fine though.
Will make a proper shapechange build later maybe ish
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Answer: You know what that does right? In this that arcane archer feature is irrelevant. As the feature reads out:
”At 7th level, you learn how to direct an errant arrow toward a new target. When you make an attack roll with a magic arrow and miss, you can use a bonus action to reroll the attack roll against a different target within 60 feet of the original target.“
So unless your fighting multiple opponents this feature doesn’t do anything…
Additionally 4yulming4 the Bladesinger build you have requires you acquiring a turn to activate your Bladesong and cast your spell as such why do that when you can do anything else as the Bladesinger build has a key weakness it requires a bonus action to activate the Bladesong as such the build is weaker when compared to the Tank wizard and incredibly weak compared to the initiative wizard in that the initiative wizard would easily be able to defeat your Bladesinger… also remember there is no prep and the characters are in a white room as such the build is even more iffy and if we give the Bladesinger prep the wizard by the merit of bring a wizard they would win with or without your Bladesinger build.
Otherwise I hope to see your build in the feature ;).
PS: Though remember concentration can be broken by ways that aren’t damage most notably are incapcitated, and environmental hazards and such.
Bladesinger idea I've had for a while, but never thought about it in the context of a 1v1 until this reddit post.
The feature the RedKnuckles is referring to I presume is not Curving Shot but rather Seeking Arrow which does indeed do what the person thinks it does. As I stated though, it can be easily countered by Wall of Force as a dome.
As for my build,
The idea is basically that If you win initiative you can easily gain prep via Wall of Force, Resilient Sphere, or for maximum protection Forcecage on yourself; also that allowing the Contingency removes the need to win initiative as it can be used to cast one of these instant prep spells (exc. forcecage but you don't really need 1 hour of prep).
If you remove Contingency, or want to end the battle quickly, then yeah this is a garbage build go for a initiative one. But you already made one so here we are, I'm just going to make a pure Shapechange build and toss initiative down the drain for funzies. (Again, yeah I understand you want to do no Contingency & whiteroom, but that limits it down to basically just your initiative build or the tank build, and this isn't a serious build anyways).
It is noteworthy you can use the same resilient sphere spell/wall of force dome in your initiative build too (after you win initative) to allow for prep. Both of these of course use concentration though.
Environmental Hazards are not a concern, as this build doesn't rely on circumstantial methods of having decent concentration saving throws like Warcaster (which only applies to damage). While it does have Warcaster, it's CON saving throw is high enough to where it doesn't rely on it. Actually, I made a slip up in the previous post, this build has a concentration saving throw of +19 not +14 (+8 CON, +6 Dragon prof., +5 bladesong). Not even spells like Sleet Storm will have a chance at breaking concentration.
Stun is a valid concern, but that is why Legendary Resistances & Lucky exists. Besides, Ancient White Dragons are proficient in all saving throws except STR & INT (Wizard having INT saving throw prof, and STR being a nonissue with +8 STR).
Build (fully optimized)
Level 20 Wizard, Bladesinger
background and stuff doesn't really matter, skills: Athletics, the other 5 skills are up to you.
My suggestion is Investigation, Intimidation, Arcana (why not), Persuasion, Insight but it doesn't really matter. Perception is a good skill but will be overridden by Shapechange, it does make for a easier progression which this build lacks). For reference it's 4 skills normally, +1 cause skill expert, +1 cause Custom Origin.
Race: Custom Origin, +2 INT
alt Half Elf grabbing +2 INT +1 WIS & CHA, if you hate Custom Origin. Remove Skill Expert, replace Martial Adept for +1 INT & CHA. You lose the manuevers & expertise in exchange granting a +1 to your CHA save. Your final Stat Array would be 8, 8, 8, 20, 16, 18. Half Elf also grants advantage on Charm effects which is nice. In the end not worth it in my opinion as Martial Adept is brutal with dragon form + Skill Expert.
ASIs/Feats: Skill Expert (Athletics, +1 INT), +2 INT, +1 WIS & CHA, Martial Adept (Menacing Attack, Grappling Strike), Warcaster, Lucky
This is in no particular order, except Skill Expert being the Custom Origin feat for that 18 INT at level 1. Primary focused around buffing our mental saving throws which is our main weakness. Can drop Warcaster for +2 WIS or CHA. Menacing Attack isn't really necessary and can be replaced as well.
Starting Point Buy Array: STR 8 (-1) DEX 8 (-1) CON 8 (-1) INT 15 (+2) WIS 15 (+2) CHA 15 (+2)
As hilarious as this completely unbalanced stat array is, I'm still using it cause optimizer going to optimize. There's a "actually decent progression" build for a reason and this is why.
Stats at 1st Level: STR 8 (-1) DEX 8 (-1) CON 8 (-1) INT 18 (+3) WIS 15 (+3) CHA 15 (+3)
Final Stats: STR 8 (-1) DEX 8 (-1) CON 8 (-1) INT 20 (+5) WIS 16 (+2) CHA 16 (+2)
Health: nonexistant. AC: not good enough
it's actually 62 and AC of 11 (12 with Mage Armor, 17 with Bladesinger, 22 with Shield
Saves: STR -1, DEX -1, CON -1, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +2
Spells aren't listed. All the spells the build uses are below and you can easily get all of them on a level 20 wizard.
Early Progression:
Pray to whatever god to curse me for thinking a DEX 8 CON 8 bladesinger would have any form of decent progression.
Stay near the backline as a traditional wizard, using bladesong to try to maintain concentration & survive. Always have Absorb Elements. Always. First round is spell + bladesong. On other rounds you can utilize Magic Stone + [Tooltip Not Found] or some other cantrip. Just be a normal wizard with a intense focus on positioning and defense.
Level 20 Battle VS Fighter Plan, let's be real this was called a Contingency build for a reason. Winning Initiative is not a option for this build (-1). Contingency Resilient Sphere grants you 10 turns to prep.
Cast the following non-concentration buff spells using the following spell slots:
1st: Longstrider, 2nd: Mirror Image, 3: Blink, 4: Fire Shield, 7: Crown of Stars, 8: False Life
If there's any more decent buff spells I've missed, my bad. Mind Blank was going to be the 8th level pick, however few fighters do psychic damage. It is always a option however. Also was considering Fortune's Favor but we aren't a dunamancy wizard.
Then end Resilient Sphere by casting Shapechange into a Ancient White Dragon, BA Bladesong. Feel the power surge through you.
Health: 333 (40 to 43 temp hit points), AC 20 (25 with Bladesong, 30 with Shield). 3 Mirror Images (AC 10), and don't forget Blink.
Saves: STR +8, DEX +6, CON +14, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +9. Concentration Saving Throw is +19 (with advantage if the save is a result from damage).
Skills: Athletics +20, Perception +13, Stealth +6, whatever skills you picked.
woah dragons have expertise in perception, the more you know. Sadly Shapechange says that when both you and the dragon are both prof you compare your bonus to the base statblock's bonus, so I can't stack expertise + my superior WIS.
Speed: 60 ft., burrow 50 ft., fly 90 ft., swim 50 ft. (Can dash for 180 ft of flying movement and you have a 20 ft reach/90 ft breath)
If someone tries to flee, dash for 180 ft of flying movement and hit them with that Warcaster to Hold Person. Or just use a 20 ft tail attack (+11 to hit & 22 damage).
Damage: +14 to hit, three attacks: 33, 20, 20, or cold breath DC 22 CON for 72. Bonus Action (Crown of Stars): +11 to hit, 26 (4d12). Fire Shield: 9 (2d8) per melee attack.
1 maneuver, Grappling Strike (Athletics +20 + 1d6) against ranged fighters to prevent them from running away, or against melee fighters to keep them 20 ft away and in doing so forcing them to use ranged/thrown weapons.
Note for damage I'm adding on Song of Victory because these all count as "melee weapon attacks" except the cold breath & spell stuff obv.
Sadly bladesinger Extra Attack doesn't stack with multiattack, and doing a bite + cantrip is probably way worse than bite + 2 claw.
You can grapple a ranged fighter at 5 ft to grant disadvantage, but they probably have something like CBE to negate that.
Can go for Menacing Attack too with a DC of 22 but not as good as a effect in my opinion as it lasts one round.
You do have Frightful Presence but it has a pretty low DC of 16 which a Fighter can probably pass with Indominable. Esp. a samurai that has prof in WIS saving throws.
You can also continue spellcasting (although there is the question of if a dragon can use a spellcasting focus, I assume yes, but yeah I can see why that might be shaky.), and you have lucky. Even without a focus you can still cast Shield which is probably all you need to cast.
Build but with actually decent progression:
Level 20 Wizard, Bladesinger
Main difference is rearrangement of Stats, in shapechanged form we rely on Ancient White Dragon saving throw prof. rather than our own. Allowing us to get DEX & CON at the cost of rip CHA saving throws. Also early game Fey Touched for extra Misty Steps.
Background still doesn't matter. Skills: Perception, Investigation, Athletics, your choice.
My suggestion remains the same. Insight/Intimidation, Arcana (why not). Losing a skill here because I want Darkvision from Custom Origin.
Race: Custom Origin, +2 INT
See above Half Elf. Grab darkvision instead of the skill. Technically for this build you can also go Variant Human, replacing the Skill Expert stat boost for +1 INT, and having the same skills. But 18 INT at level 1 is nice & I believe darkvision is better than a skill proficiency.
ASIs/Feats: Fey Touched: (+1 INT, Command), Lucky, Warcaster, +2 INT, Skill Expert (Athletics, +1 WIS), Martial Adept (Menacing Attack, Grappling Strike)
Spells are now in order of when I would take them in a normal build. Gift of Alacrity is a better spell but it's dunamancy. You can swap Skill Expert for Perception, which is probably more thematic and allows you to survive longer,. Can also swap Martial Adept for Alert as surprise kills. But grappling strike as dragon form is pretty nice and you get your 5th feat at level 18 anyways and by then you already have shapechange.
Starting Point Buy Array: STR 8 (-1) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1) INT 15 (+2) WIS 13 (+1) CHA 10 (+0)
Stats at 1st Level: STR 8 (-1) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1) INT 18 (+4) WIS 13 (+1) CHA 10 (+0)
Final Stats: STR 8 (-1) DEX 14 (+2) CON 12 (+1) INT 20 (+5) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 10 (+0)
Alt. swap WIS & CHA, as our WIS saves will always be okay from prof. bonus and a +2 helps for those rare Banishment saves.
Health: 102. AC: 14 (15 Mage Armor, 20 Bladesong, 25 Shield)
Saves: STR -1, DEX +2, CON +1, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +0
Early Progression:
Traditional wizard playstyle, stay in the back, your main attack cantrip is still Magic Stone + any other cantrip. Again Bladesong takes priority over Magic Stone. Fey Touched grants good survivability with Misty Step, combined with Lucky should keep you alive. Bladesong will grant okay AC & with Warcaster should allow you to actually survive concentration checks (+6). Note that with your decent HP & AC you can survive without using bladesong which is great because esp. at lower levels you have limited uses of it and it recharges on a LR.
Level 20 Battle VS Fighter Plan, It's the same. Still not winning initiative (+2).
Health: 333 (40 to 43 temp hit points), AC 20 (25 with Bladesong, 30 with Shield). 3 Mirror Images (AC 10), and don't forget Blink.
Saves: STR +8, DEX +6, CON +14, INT +11, WIS +8, CHA +6. Concentration Saving Throw is +19 (with advantage if the save is a result from damage).
Skills: Athletics +20, Perception +13, Stealth +6, Investigation +11, whatever skills you picked
No change for the rest of the build.Edit: Fixed formatting & some grammar stuff, D&D Beyond apparently isn't supporting multiquotes for me right now. Weird.
also some stats got messed up as I was switched between Half Elf & Custom Origin builds, fixed now
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.