The reason HeironymusZot got a low number was because he assumed you would either get advantage or Hex, not both, as that post was made before he was corrected of the prone stuff.
Answer: As you have said that has already been rectified as such I need not to speak of it further.
Using the calculator (assuming the Custom Lineage stuff, which personally I agree with HeironymusZot, Custom Lineage doesn't allow you to choose who you are, it allows you to choose your appearance or if you resemble your kin. Resemble and appearance being key words there, but this isn't the thread to argue about that).
Answer: I know I saw Jeremy’s tweet on this a long time ago I just wanted to show what the build would like if it were to do so and as for the thing someone said about my use of Discovery the Hermit background feature yes while it is hella gimmicky and a possible subversion of what it was I could perfectly see it as something totally possible.
16 attacks, +8 to hit, 1d12 + d6 + 15, Elven Accuracy & Advantage, nets a DPR of 254.07 against AC 24, and 218.02 against AC 25.
Funnily enough, against AC 25 you get a DPR of 222.89 if you don't use sharpshooter (SS is better against AC 24 and lower). Guess that frees up a feat.
Answer: Wow didn’t know that. That sure is interesting that SS falls off at one point I thought that certainly SS would be a net increase.
Edit: Forgot to account for piercer, crit is easy enough. For reroll just added 1.5 to any hit buffed with the reroll 8 (piercer avg for d12) - 6.5 (normal avg for d12) = 1.5, so added 1.5 to two attacks, assuming you hit at least twice (very likely) so I just added 3 to the total DPR. I guess more accurately I'd be adding something like 3 * chance to hit at least twice but close enough.
against 271.90 AC 24 SS, 235.85 against AC 25 SS 240.72 against AC 25 no SS
okay I think that's the final edit for correcting numbers
Edit: Forgot to account for piercer, crit is easy enough. For reroll just added 1.5 to any hit buffed with the reroll 8 (piercer avg for d12) - 6.5 (normal avg for d12) = 1.5, so added 1.5 to two attacks, assuming you hit at least twice (very likely) so I just added 3 to the total DPR. I guess more accurately I'd be adding something like 3 * chance to hit at least twice but close enough.
against 271.90 AC 24 SS, 235.85 against AC 25 SS 240.72 against AC 25 no SS
okay I think that's the final edit for correcting numbers
Answer: How did you get the average for bonus for piercer once a turn damage die reroll since I don’t know how to use math to do so and I would like to know for future reference.
I have been looking back on this forum and checking out our early builds and discussions and I thought to once again make a compilation of the builds and such to not only resurface some perhaps forgotten builds but also to show them off with their merits and failings. The builds are as of yet:
The Main Fighter Builds:
1. Build: The Banishing, Subclass: Arcane Archer, Race: Scourge Aasimer (Goblin was used at one point aswell) The Plan of the Banishing is to chain banish the wizard. This build does so by using the Arcane Archer’s Arcane Arrow Banishing Arrow to effectively skip the wizards turn and pummel him over the course of 3ish turns. The main counters are the Chronurgist as they can use Convergent Future to just win the first banishing arrow thus invalidating the arcane archers entire strategy aswell as Divination wizards to the same extent as they have their portents.
2. Build: The Bound, Subclass: Eldritch Knight, Race: Half-Elf/Half-Orc both work and have their own merits The Plan of the Bound is to keep hold of the wizard via paralysis to then crit out the wizard. This build does so by casting hold person the using bonus action attack and action surge to attack using a Polearm and GWM at 4d10 + 15 (Half Orc) at advantage or 3d10 +15 (Half-Elf) at triple advantage while maintaining hold person fir as long as possible. The main counters are Satyr’s, wizards with good saves, roll manipulation.
3. Build: Seppuku Sniper Samurai, Subclass: Samurai, Race: Half-Elf (Custom Lineage: Is what I would say but due to certain revelations CL doesn’t work). The Plan of the Seppuku Sniper Samurai is to hardcore NOVA the wizard. This build does so by shoving prone then nuking the wizard followed by suicide for an extra turn (Strength Before Death) to continue the nuking at 25 - 22.5 average damage per strike with like over 15 attacks. The main counters are the wizards Tank build (has 265 hp with 25 AC), the Reactionary (while not a complete counter is does enough to where it chops down damage by a lot), and the Wary (it just has too much initiative for the fighter).
4. Build: The Grappler, Subclass: Doesn’t Matter, Race, Doesn’t Matter (Although a using a race with multiple appendages to grapple would be best). The Plan of the Grappler is to stop all spellcasting and slow kill the wizard. This build does so by (while there are no rules for this) denying the wizard the ability to speak (gag), see (blindfold), gesture (rope), etc making the wizard effectively unable to do anything. The main counters are Metamagic Adept Subtle Spell Misty Step, Chronurgist Temporal Stasis, etc.
The Main Wizard Builds:
1. Build: The Survivor, Subclass: Abjuration. The Plan of the Survivor is to outlast the fighters onslaught. This build does so by using a hobgoblin with moderately armored half plate (with a shield) and Fighting Initiate - Defence cast with the shield spell along with the Abjurers ward you have the Tank. The main counters are Unknown as of the moment as seemingly no build can reach a high enough Nova to kill the Tank in one turn.
2. Build: The Wary, Subclass: Chronurgist. The Plan of the Wary is to achieve a higher initiative than the fighter. This build does so by being a Harengon, using alert and martial adept for initiative boosts while also using the Chronurgist for the ability to add the wizards Int modifier to the total initiative bonus as such you end up with a base bonus of like +20 with an average roll of 15 (Chronal Shift, Lucky).
3. Build: The Reactionary, Subclass: Chronurgist (Doesn’t Matter) The Plan of the Reactionary is to cut off the fighter so he can’t do any/enough damage to kill an he wizard. This build does so by using Warcaster and Polearm master to trap the fighter in a maze when he enters range. The main counters are Unknown since besides just not engaging the wizard there isn’t much if any at all counterplay to the Warcaster Polearm master gimmick.
And while that is not all (I think) and not as in depth as I want, it is good enough for now. While I don’t know if I will but I might remake the Arcane Archer and/or Eldritch Knight builds as they haven’t gotten as much love as the Seppuku Sniper Samurai I made which is getting revisions like everyday or like the wizard who I have made like three builds in the matter of a few days.
Sorry for any mistakes it’s late and I’m dreary and tired but do tell if I missed a build or misinterpreted a meaning or even perhaps messed something up.
Answer: How did you get the average for bonus for piercer once a turn damage die reroll since I don’t know how to use math to do so and I would like to know for future reference.
Calculating the Piercer re-roll (or any re-roll) for a single dice is relatively simple, but also a bit of a pain in the arse.
First thing you need to do is decide what values you can/want to re-roll; since Piercer is fully up to you (rather than re-roll 1's only etc.) you probably want to re-roll anything that's below average. On a d12 the average roll is 6.5 (all the possible values added together and divided by the number of sides), so you might want to re-roll 6's and under*.
In this case you have a 1 in 12 chance of rolling 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 normally, as you won't be re-rolling these. So that comes out as (7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12) / 12 for an average of 4.75. Since you'll be re-rolling all of the other numbers, but only once, then for each of these (six) values you have a 1 in 144 (12 times 12) chance of rolling any value on your re-roll. So to get that you add all the values (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12) together, multiply by six, then divide by 144, which gives you an average of 3.25. Add these together and your new average for Piercer on a single d12 is 8, an increase of 1.5 damage compared to the unmodified average.
Where it gets complicated is calculating it for multiple dice which I have no idea how to do; the more dice you roll the more likely you are to actually use the Piercer re-roll, but you can only use it once per turn. It's possible you could just fudge it and work out your normal (non-Piercer) damage and just add 1.5 to the per turn total? This would probably be close enough. If you're also calculating extra damage from criticals then you also need to add the extra dice Piercer gives in that case as well.
That's the funny thing with dice rolling games; they're not too hard to play, but man it can get complicated to work out the math!
*It gets even more complicated because while re-rolling any value that's below average might be the statistically correct thing to do, it's a weird thing to do in practice. For example, on a d12 a result of 5 or 6 may be below average, but it's not terrible, and you still have a fairly high chance of re-rolling the same again or worse, so in practice for d12's I'd personally only re-roll 1, 2, 3 or 4 and leave 5 and 6. This gives an average of 7.833 which is near as damnit the same bonus damage but less likely to trigger "I wish I hadn't re-rolled" syndrome. 😉
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Calculating the Piercer re-roll (or any re-roll) for a single dice is relatively simple, but also a bit of a pain in the arse.
First thing you need to do is decide what values you can/want to re-roll; since Piercer is fully up to you (rather than re-roll 1's only etc.) you probably want to re-roll anything that's below average. On a d12 the average roll is 6.5 (all the possible values added together and divided by the number of sides), so you might want to re-roll 6's and under*.
In this case you have a 1 in 12 chance of roll 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 normally, as you won't be re-rolling these. So that (7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12) / 12 for an average of 4.75. Since you'll be re-rolling all of the other numbers, but only once, then for each of these (six) values you have a 1 in 144 (12 times 12) chance of rolling any value on your re-roll. So to get that you add all the values (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12) together, multiply by six, then divided by 144, which gives you an average of 3.25. Add these together and your new average for Piercer on a single d12 is 8, an increase of 1.5 damage on average.
Where it gets complicated is calculating it for multiple dice which I have no idea how to do; the more dice you roll the more likely you are to actually use the Piercer re-roll, but you can only use it once per turn. It's possible you could just fudge it and work out your normal (non-Piercer) damage and just 1.5 to the per turn total? This would be close enough. If you're also calculating extra damage from criticals then you also need to add the extra dice Piercer gives in that case.
That's the funny thing with dice rolling games; they're not too hard to play, but man it can get complicated to work out the math!
*It gets even more complicated because while re-rolling any value that's below average might be the statistically correct thing to do, it's a weird thing to do in practice. For example, on a d12 a result of 5 or 6 may be below average, but it's not terrible, and you still have a fairly high chance of re-rolling the same again or worse, so in practice for d12's I'd personally only re-roll 1, 2, 3 or 4 and leave 5 and 6. This gives an average of 7.833 which is near as damnit the same bonus damage but less likely to trigger "I wish I hadn't re-rolled" syndrome. 😉
Answer: Thanks a lot this is super helpful! And I know what you mean about the “I wish I hadn't re-rolled.”
For piercer on multiple attacks, I assumed out of the 16 attacks you can reroll two attacks (cause two turns) and applied the +1.5 to the first two attacks. I touched upon it slightly, but I think for more accuracy you would add 1.5 * (chance of hitting at least once out of your 8 attacks per turn). Thankfully, the damage calculator linked earlier already calculates that for us. The below is multiplied by 2 in the last step because two turns.
Against AC 24 that is 99.89966087%. So 1.5 * 0.9989966087 = 1.49849491 * 2 = +2.99698982. Against AC 25 that is 99.52776335%. So 1.5 * 0.9952776335 = 1.49291645 * 2 = +2.9858329. Against AC 25 no Sharpshooter that is 99.99994129%. So 1.5 * 0.9999994129 = 1.49999912 * 2 = +2.99999824.
You can see why I neglected that in the DPR calculations, if you did apply the above the only change would be to AC 25 SS DPR to 235.84 (minus 0.01) due to how I rounded it.
This is all assuming I understand how dice math works. Which is a dubious claim at best.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I’ve been thinking for increasing the damage possible using feats, spells, backgrounds you name it and even seeing what the Eldritch Knight could do and more as such I want to share a few things that I found interesting and possibly viable too.
To start this off I am starting with a maneuver that probably many of you didn’t know about or overlooked and that maneuver is Disarming Strike and the reason it is so good is that you are able to make the wizard lose their shield. By making the wizard lose their shield they lose a whole 2 AC and that can save a whole lotta damage as a single AC most of the time equals about 40 hp (In the context of the Seppuku Sniper Samurai that means your damage increase by approximately like 80. So that is one way to help your chances to win.
Secondly it is the shocking grasp cantrip easily enough to get as with a single feat it can be grabbed and the effect it can have is huge. So huge in fact that if it hits of which it isn’t too hard to do especially if the target wears metal as this hobgoblin build does (works with Elven Accuracy). And remember if you stop the wizard from using shield and if you use Disarming Strike as well (all it requires is martial adept or fighting initiate: superior technique) you can knock a whole 7 AC of of the wizard from what would have been a 25 AC making it significantly easier to hit and therefore deal damage. Although this is note worthing enough to say but for how shield is worded and how shocking grasp is worded it is very weird for how they interact. As for using the action for shocking grasp I honestly thing that even without those attacks the mere loss of the AC would severely increase the damage output.
Last but no least is mage slayer and while it probably won’t do much of anything at all in a proactive sense it actually will allow for a free attack if the wizard decides to cast a spell on his turn and for how mage slayer is worded it literally doesn’t matter if they use subtle spell you still get the attack in so for just a feat is can deal and additional 22.5/25 extra damage while it pales in comparison to the damage gained from making the wizard drop his shield or be unable to cast the shield spell it still is a neat bit of extra damage.
Looking back upon the Eldritch Knight I am starting to think the EK build could get much better. And now that I think about it the Arcane Archer is a neat idea for a build but it is too easily countered or beaten especially considering the fact that a Chronurgist can quite literally just completely counter the entire build by using Convergent future to succeed the first arrow save so you aren’t banished as such in many ways the arcane archer is just a worse Eldritch Knight.
Therefore I think (unless I can or someone else can make an viable AA) the only viable fighter subclasses are Eldritch Knight, and Samurai (leaning towards the samurai favour).
Imma just put down all the “OP” backgrounds available. Knight for RETAINERS giving 2 commoners (Retainers), and a noble (squire), Hermit for Discovery and the potential available, Ravnica backgrounds for Guild Spells, and the most OP of them all the Strixhaven backgrounds which give college spells and the Strixhaven Initiate for free! That means you can get some amazing free spells without using an ASI as it just a part of your background.
Imma just put down all the “OP” backgrounds available. Knight for RETAINERS giving 2 commoners (Retainers), and a noble (squire), Hermit for Discovery and the potential available, Ravnica backgrounds for Guild Spells, and the most OP of them all the Strixhaven backgrounds which give college spells and the Strixhaven Initiate feat for free! That means you can get some amazing free spells without using an ASI.
Not sure if I'd consider the Ravnica or Strixhaven backgrounds as for normal use. The Strixhaven ones especially seem to be an alternative to releasing sub-classes (which is hugely disappointing); these are backgrounds for a Strixhaven campaign where everyone gets one, you should not be mixing and matching with regular backgrounds.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Imma just put down all the “OP” backgrounds available. Knight for RETAINERS giving 2 commoners (Retainers), and a noble (squire), Hermit for Discovery and the potential available, Ravnica backgrounds for Guild Spells, and the most OP of them all the Strixhaven backgrounds which give college spells and the Strixhaven Initiate feat for free! That means you can get some amazing free spells without using an ASI.
Not sure if I'd consider the Ravnica or Strixhaven backgrounds as for normal use. The Strixhaven ones especially seem to be an alternative to releasing sub-classes (which is hugely disappointing); these are backgrounds for a Strixhaven campaign where everyone gets one, you should not be mixing and matching with regular backgrounds.
Answer: it’s in a book, we are in a white room it’s all fair game… now if we were set in say Ebberon I could see why you may not like the idea of using backgrounds from other settings but since we are not it’s all good!
Imma just put down all the “OP” backgrounds available. Knight for RETAINERS giving 2 commoners (Retainers), and a noble (squire), Hermit for Discovery and the potential available, Ravnica backgrounds for Guild Spells, and the most OP of them all the Strixhaven backgrounds which give college spells and the Strixhaven Initiate feat for free! That means you can get some amazing free spells without using an ASI.
Not sure if I'd consider the Ravnica or Strixhaven backgrounds as for normal use. The Strixhaven ones especially seem to be an alternative to releasing sub-classes (which is hugely disappointing); these are backgrounds for a Strixhaven campaign where everyone gets one, you should not be mixing and matching with regular backgrounds.
Answer: it’s in a book, we are in a white room it’s all fair game… now if we were set in say Ebberon I could see why you may not like the idea of using backgrounds from other settings but since we are not it’s all good!
nothing here up to this point has been setting- specific, no feat, no class, no spell, no nothing, and none of those backgrounds really make sense in anything other than their native settings or settings that are duplicates of those settings in all but name, and the backgrounds from ravnica / strixhaven are meant to be used in a context wherein those backgrounds are the only backgrounds available. If not fully thrown out, calculations with them should be done with heavy asterisks attached. No sane DM would ever let you use any of those in a typical campaign
i'll also take the moment to repeat that gaining access to a feat you would not normally be able to choose is by no means an appropriate implementation of the Discovery feature on so many levels, not only becuase it has no immediate impact at 1st level, not only becuase "elven accuracy" seems to have no special secret to it, more reflecting the higher-than-average accuracy that elves posess but simply becuase it fails to meaningfully tie you to the game world the way that a background should be doing and that this feature was intended to do
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Imma just put down all the “OP” backgrounds available. Knight for RETAINERS giving 2 commoners (Retainers), and a noble (squire), Hermit for Discovery and the potential available, Ravnica backgrounds for Guild Spells, and the most OP of them all the Strixhaven backgrounds which give college spells and the Strixhaven Initiate feat for free! That means you can get some amazing free spells without using an ASI.
Not sure if I'd consider the Ravnica or Strixhaven backgrounds as for normal use. The Strixhaven ones especially seem to be an alternative to releasing sub-classes (which is hugely disappointing); these are backgrounds for a Strixhaven campaign where everyone gets one, you should not be mixing and matching with regular backgrounds.
Answer: it’s in a book, we are in a white room it’s all fair game… now if we were set in say Ebberon I could see why you may not like the idea of using backgrounds from other settings but since we are not it’s all good!
nothing here up to this point has been setting- specific, no feat, no class, no spell, no nothing,
Answer: We are in a white room yeah it doesn’t matter if stuff is from a certain setting a certain book or whatever the white room doesn’t care it uses everything it is given from every book and source possible to make everything “fair” and to bar certain feature, feats, spells, abilities, BACKGROUNDS, and such would mean you are not in a white room and are instead in the setting of a world. But we can’t be in a setting of a world since that would restrict our options and as such all options MUST be available or else since if we allow say only Ebberon content. That means in Ebberon since there are (to my knowledge) no samurai that means one of the most if not there most powerful builds are gone among others, additionally now the wizard can also no longer use Chronurgist, Gravitugist, and even Bladesinger since he is set to a certain world not to mention not having certain spells, and feats that are from other settings.
and none of those backgrounds really make sense in anything other than their native settings or settings that are duplicates of those settings in all but name, and the backgrounds from ravnica / strixhaven are meant to be used in a context wherein those backgrounds are the only backgrounds available.
Answer: The whiteroom doesn’t care about such restrictions and if it did as I said we would be adding restrictions to each sides’ use of features, feats, spells, abilities, etc. And at that point what’s the point of this forum if we aren’t allowed to see who is stronger fighter or wizard when all we are doing is seeing who
If not fully thrown out, calculations with them should be done with heavy asterisks attached. No sane DM would ever let you use any of those in a typical campaign
Answer: The white room doesn’t care and why are you bringing up a DM making a campaign this is a whiteroom where all things are available and there are many builds a DM probably wouldn’t allow but why should he care everyone’s already at lvl 20 and are borderline gods while the wizard is one.
i'll also take the moment to repeat that gaining access to a feat you would not normally be able to choose is by no means an appropriate implementation of the Discovery feature on so many levels, not only becuase it has no immediate impact at 1st level, not only becuase "elven accuracy" seems to have no special secret to it, more reflecting the higher-than-average accuracy that elves posess but simply becuase it fails to meaningfully tie you to the game world the way that a background should be doing and that this feature was intended to do
Answer: Yes it is a stretch but if you want a reason for why/how Discovery could be used to merit the use of Elven Accuracy (mind I know that Discovery has no RAW thing saying it grants this or that but not does it sa it can’t do what I want it to and all things considered the DM could have it happen).
Now as for how Discovery could be used to merit the use of Elven Accuracy is:
Garren Windstride was a master of the bow but when he entered the archery tournament in the northern lands of Wildafelt the land of the Wood Elves he was shown that while skilled he was no match for the skill of the elves. Sending himself to banishment for his own foolishness he went the the Silver Mist woods coming across a small Elven village huddle among the treetops and saw to his astonishment elves be able to hit the monstrosities miles away that lay on the grounds of the woods of the forest with keen precision. He watch and watch, replicating, watching, learning from their movements he studied for seven years and when the next archery tournament was held he set off. When he came and showed his skill the elves around him who also entered for fame were astounded as Garren was able to hit the feather from a miles away.
Or whatever you get the point it is totally possible for discovery to not only expand the world, but also give the ability to get Elven Accuracy for his discovery when he studied the elves techniques and such.
TLDR: Whiteroom uses everything it is given it doesn’t care if you don’t like that it uses things from wildemount and strixhaven all it does is make everything fair game. As for Discovery while it may seem cheap to you it is perfectly reasonable if not a great story point and role play opportunity for say a human in this example learn the Elves archery secrets perhaps those wood elves hunt him to keep their secrets, or they commend them for their ability to do such a thought impossible feat there are many ways/things you could do.
Do tell if I missed, misinterpreted, or misunderstood something.
Having a range of 1,600ft and being safely behind full cover really helps tip this in the fighters favor. But with 30AC, mirror image, simulacrum, clone and etherealness I don't see how the fighter can finish the job.
You pretty much have to feed the wizard to the fighter for fighter to win, you could deliberately make the wizard weak and let the fighter ambush them with ideal magic items and a custom Mage slaying set up, but than, that's not a contest between a wizard and fighter, it's a contest against a handicap and set up.
Given preparation, a wizard can win the vast majority of the time, and that doesn't require any added feats or special equipment, a wizard can true polymorph into a cr equal to their level, they can gate the plain of fire right onto the fighter, they can turn invisible and blind the foe with illusions. A prepared wizard can beat almost any fighter, but a prepared fighter can only address specific builds, and often times they would have to use magic items to even reach the wizard, a basic fly spell can leave many fighters plucking away with a bow, but if the wizard stuns a fighter, flies up and gates a Tarrasque on top of the fighter, he'll be swallowed and the acid of a Tarrasques stomach can dissolve artifacts, not just magic items and people.
Wizards aren't impervious, and can lose to a Fighter, but a fighter can always be killed by a Wizard at level 20.
Whoever goes first can either kill (fighter) or incapacitate (wizard) the other in a single round. Melee fighters are probably not going to like the outcome of this one, but a longbow outranges the wizard’s spells except for like, meteor swarm which is unlikely to one hit kill the fighter. Depends on the fighter, the initiative, whether or not the wizard is allowed to true polymorph before the fight, and how far away they start. Ask questions of more comparable things like two melee characters rather than a one round initiative contest that either party can win on their first turn.
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Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Whoever goes first can either kill (fighter) or incapacitate (wizard) the other in a single round. Melee fighters are probably not going to like the outcome of this one, but a longbow outranges the wizard’s spells except for like, meteor swarm which is unlikely to one hit kill the fighter. Depends on the fighter, the initiative, whether or not the wizard is allowed to true polymorph before the fight, and how far away they start. Ask questions of more comparable things like two melee characters rather than a one round initiative contest that either party can win on their first turn.
Nah wizards have spells that are 150 ft or farther and that's assuming the fighter gets the drop on the wizard which is...... exceedingly generous.
Plus there are wizard builds in this thread that can outlast even the best damage builds from fighter.
As said the wizard has like a 80-90% Chance to win if you go straight damage build fighter.
The only real shot is the arcane Archer build which uses a banishment arrow.
Longbow’s long range is 600 feet. I think people forget that you can attack rom that far, just with disadvantage. If the fight starts at 600 feet, a fighter with 20 dex and sharpshooter can bust the wizard before they can use their lower-range spells. I am not saying the fighter will win. I am saying it depends on a number of factors. If the wizard is allowed true polymorph before the battle, they will win regardless unless the fighter has slaying arrows of whatever the wizard became.
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Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Also action surges and subclass features mean 8 attacks at least, possibly more. Most wizards cannot survive that if subclass features boost the damage.
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Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Answer: As you have said that has already been rectified as such I need not to speak of it further.
Answer: I know I saw Jeremy’s tweet on this a long time ago I just wanted to show what the build would like if it were to do so and as for the thing someone said about my use of Discovery the Hermit background feature yes while it is hella gimmicky and a possible subversion of what it was I could perfectly see it as something totally possible.
Answer: Wow didn’t know that. That sure is interesting that SS falls off at one point I thought that certainly SS would be a net increase.
corrected the numbers in the post cause I forgot to include piercer
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Answer: How did you get the average for bonus for piercer once a turn damage die reroll since I don’t know how to use math to do so and I would like to know for future reference.
I have been looking back on this forum and checking out our early builds and discussions and I thought to once again make a compilation of the builds and such to not only resurface some perhaps forgotten builds but also to show them off with their merits and failings. The builds are as of yet:
The Main Fighter Builds:
1. Build: The Banishing, Subclass: Arcane Archer, Race: Scourge Aasimer (Goblin was used at one point aswell)
The Plan of the Banishing is to chain banish the wizard. This build does so by using the Arcane Archer’s Arcane Arrow Banishing Arrow to effectively skip the wizards turn and pummel him over the course of 3ish turns. The main counters are the Chronurgist as they can use Convergent Future to just win the first banishing arrow thus invalidating the arcane archers entire strategy aswell as Divination wizards to the same extent as they have their portents.
2. Build: The Bound, Subclass: Eldritch Knight, Race: Half-Elf/Half-Orc both work and have their own merits
The Plan of the Bound is to keep hold of the wizard via paralysis to then crit out the wizard. This build does so by casting hold person the using bonus action attack and action surge to attack using a Polearm and GWM at 4d10 + 15 (Half Orc) at advantage or 3d10 +15 (Half-Elf) at triple advantage while maintaining hold person fir as long as possible. The main counters are Satyr’s, wizards with good saves, roll manipulation.
3. Build: Seppuku Sniper Samurai, Subclass: Samurai, Race: Half-Elf (Custom Lineage: Is what I would say but due to certain revelations CL doesn’t work).
The Plan of the Seppuku Sniper Samurai is to hardcore NOVA the wizard. This build does so by shoving prone then nuking the wizard followed by suicide for an extra turn (Strength Before Death) to continue the nuking at 25 - 22.5 average damage per strike with like over 15 attacks. The main counters are the wizards Tank build (has 265 hp with 25 AC), the Reactionary (while not a complete counter is does enough to where it chops down damage by a lot), and the Wary (it just has too much initiative for the fighter).
4. Build: The Grappler, Subclass: Doesn’t Matter, Race, Doesn’t Matter (Although a using a race with multiple appendages to grapple would be best).
The Plan of the Grappler is to stop all spellcasting and slow kill the wizard. This build does so by (while there are no rules for this) denying the wizard the ability to speak (gag), see (blindfold), gesture (rope), etc making the wizard effectively unable to do anything. The main counters are Metamagic Adept Subtle Spell Misty Step, Chronurgist Temporal Stasis, etc.
The Main Wizard Builds:
1. Build: The Survivor, Subclass: Abjuration.
The Plan of the Survivor is to outlast the fighters onslaught. This build does so by using a hobgoblin with moderately armored half plate (with a shield) and Fighting Initiate - Defence cast with the shield spell along with the Abjurers ward you have the Tank. The main counters are Unknown as of the moment as seemingly no build can reach a high enough Nova to kill the Tank in one turn.
2. Build: The Wary, Subclass: Chronurgist.
The Plan of the Wary is to achieve a higher initiative than the fighter. This build does so by being a Harengon, using alert and martial adept for initiative boosts while also using the Chronurgist for the ability to add the wizards Int modifier to the total initiative bonus as such you end up with a base bonus of like +20 with an average roll of 15 (Chronal Shift, Lucky).
3. Build: The Reactionary, Subclass: Chronurgist (Doesn’t Matter)
The Plan of the Reactionary is to cut off the fighter so he can’t do any/enough damage to kill an he wizard. This build does so by using Warcaster and Polearm master to trap the fighter in a maze when he enters range. The main counters are Unknown since besides just not engaging the wizard there isn’t much if any at all counterplay to the Warcaster Polearm master gimmick.
And while that is not all (I think) and not as in depth as I want, it is good enough for now. While I don’t know if I will but I might remake the Arcane Archer and/or Eldritch Knight builds as they haven’t gotten as much love as the Seppuku Sniper Samurai I made which is getting revisions like everyday or like the wizard who I have made like three builds in the matter of a few days.
Sorry for any mistakes it’s late and I’m dreary and tired but do tell if I missed a build or misinterpreted a meaning or even perhaps messed something up.
Calculating the Piercer re-roll (or any re-roll) for a single dice is relatively simple, but also a bit of a pain in the arse.
First thing you need to do is decide what values you can/want to re-roll; since Piercer is fully up to you (rather than re-roll 1's only etc.) you probably want to re-roll anything that's below average. On a d12 the average roll is 6.5 (all the possible values added together and divided by the number of sides), so you might want to re-roll 6's and under*.
In this case you have a 1 in 12 chance of rolling 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 normally, as you won't be re-rolling these. So that comes out as (7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12) / 12 for an average of 4.75.
Since you'll be re-rolling all of the other numbers, but only once, then for each of these (six) values you have a 1 in 144 (12 times 12) chance of rolling any value on your re-roll. So to get that you add all the values (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12) together, multiply by six, then divide by 144, which gives you an average of 3.25.
Add these together and your new average for Piercer on a single d12 is 8, an increase of 1.5 damage compared to the unmodified average.
Where it gets complicated is calculating it for multiple dice which I have no idea how to do; the more dice you roll the more likely you are to actually use the Piercer re-roll, but you can only use it once per turn. It's possible you could just fudge it and work out your normal (non-Piercer) damage and just add 1.5 to the per turn total? This would probably be close enough. If you're also calculating extra damage from criticals then you also need to add the extra dice Piercer gives in that case as well.
That's the funny thing with dice rolling games; they're not too hard to play, but man it can get complicated to work out the math!
*It gets even more complicated because while re-rolling any value that's below average might be the statistically correct thing to do, it's a weird thing to do in practice. For example, on a d12 a result of 5 or 6 may be below average, but it's not terrible, and you still have a fairly high chance of re-rolling the same again or worse, so in practice for d12's I'd personally only re-roll 1, 2, 3 or 4 and leave 5 and 6. This gives an average of 7.833 which is near as damnit the same bonus damage but less likely to trigger "I wish I hadn't re-rolled" syndrome. 😉
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Answer: Thanks a lot this is super helpful! And I know what you mean about the “I wish I hadn't re-rolled.”
i just did (6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12)/12 - (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 + 9 + 10 + 11 + 12)/12 = 1.5
For piercer on multiple attacks, I assumed out of the 16 attacks you can reroll two attacks (cause two turns) and applied the +1.5 to the first two attacks. I touched upon it slightly, but I think for more accuracy you would add 1.5 * (chance of hitting at least once out of your 8 attacks per turn). Thankfully, the damage calculator linked earlier already calculates that for us. The below is multiplied by 2 in the last step because two turns.
Against AC 24 that is 99.89966087%. So 1.5 * 0.9989966087 = 1.49849491 * 2 = +2.99698982.
Against AC 25 that is 99.52776335%. So 1.5 * 0.9952776335 = 1.49291645 * 2 = +2.9858329.
Against AC 25 no Sharpshooter that is 99.99994129%. So 1.5 * 0.9999994129 = 1.49999912 * 2 = +2.99999824.
You can see why I neglected that in the DPR calculations, if you did apply the above the only change would be to AC 25 SS DPR to 235.84 (minus 0.01) due to how I rounded it.
This is all assuming I understand how dice math works. Which is a dubious claim at best.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I’ve been thinking for increasing the damage possible using feats, spells, backgrounds you name it and even seeing what the Eldritch Knight could do and more as such I want to share a few things that I found interesting and possibly viable too.
To start this off I am starting with a maneuver that probably many of you didn’t know about or overlooked and that maneuver is Disarming Strike and the reason it is so good is that you are able to make the wizard lose their shield. By making the wizard lose their shield they lose a whole 2 AC and that can save a whole lotta damage as a single AC most of the time equals about 40 hp (In the context of the Seppuku Sniper Samurai that means your damage increase by approximately like 80. So that is one way to help your chances to win.
Secondly it is the shocking grasp cantrip easily enough to get as with a single feat it can be grabbed and the effect it can have is huge. So huge in fact that if it hits of which it isn’t too hard to do especially if the target wears metal as this hobgoblin build does (works with Elven Accuracy). And remember if you stop the wizard from using shield and if you use Disarming Strike as well (all it requires is martial adept or fighting initiate: superior technique) you can knock a whole 7 AC of of the wizard from what would have been a 25 AC making it significantly easier to hit and therefore deal damage. Although this is note worthing enough to say but for how shield is worded and how shocking grasp is worded it is very weird for how they interact. As for using the action for shocking grasp I honestly thing that even without those attacks the mere loss of the AC would severely increase the damage output.
Last but no least is mage slayer and while it probably won’t do much of anything at all in a proactive sense it actually will allow for a free attack if the wizard decides to cast a spell on his turn and for how mage slayer is worded it literally doesn’t matter if they use subtle spell you still get the attack in so for just a feat is can deal and additional 22.5/25 extra damage while it pales in comparison to the damage gained from making the wizard drop his shield or be unable to cast the shield spell it still is a neat bit of extra damage.
Looking back upon the Eldritch Knight I am starting to think the EK build could get much better. And now that I think about it the Arcane Archer is a neat idea for a build but it is too easily countered or beaten especially considering the fact that a Chronurgist can quite literally just completely counter the entire build by using Convergent future to succeed the first arrow save so you aren’t banished as such in many ways the arcane archer is just a worse Eldritch Knight.
Therefore I think (unless I can or someone else can make an viable AA) the only viable fighter subclasses are Eldritch Knight, and Samurai (leaning towards the samurai favour).
Imma just put down all the “OP” backgrounds available. Knight for RETAINERS giving 2 commoners (Retainers), and a noble (squire), Hermit for Discovery and the potential available, Ravnica backgrounds for Guild Spells, and the most OP of them all the Strixhaven backgrounds which give college spells and the Strixhaven Initiate for free! That means you can get some amazing free spells without using an ASI as it just a part of your background.
Not sure if I'd consider the Ravnica or Strixhaven backgrounds as for normal use. The Strixhaven ones especially seem to be an alternative to releasing sub-classes (which is hugely disappointing); these are backgrounds for a Strixhaven campaign where everyone gets one, you should not be mixing and matching with regular backgrounds.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Answer: it’s in a book, we are in a white room it’s all fair game… now if we were set in say Ebberon I could see why you may not like the idea of using backgrounds from other settings but since we are not it’s all good!
nothing here up to this point has been setting- specific, no feat, no class, no spell, no nothing, and none of those backgrounds really make sense in anything other than their native settings or settings that are duplicates of those settings in all but name, and the backgrounds from ravnica / strixhaven are meant to be used in a context wherein those backgrounds are the only backgrounds available. If not fully thrown out, calculations with them should be done with heavy asterisks attached. No sane DM would ever let you use any of those in a typical campaign
i'll also take the moment to repeat that gaining access to a feat you would not normally be able to choose is by no means an appropriate implementation of the Discovery feature on so many levels, not only becuase it has no immediate impact at 1st level, not only becuase "elven accuracy" seems to have no special secret to it, more reflecting the higher-than-average accuracy that elves posess but simply becuase it fails to meaningfully tie you to the game world the way that a background should be doing and that this feature was intended to do
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Answer: We are in a white room yeah it doesn’t matter if stuff is from a certain setting a certain book or whatever the white room doesn’t care it uses everything it is given from every book and source possible to make everything “fair” and to bar certain feature, feats, spells, abilities, BACKGROUNDS, and such would mean you are not in a white room and are instead in the setting of a world. But we can’t be in a setting of a world since that would restrict our options and as such all options MUST be available or else since if we allow say only Ebberon content. That means in Ebberon since there are (to my knowledge) no samurai that means one of the most if not there most powerful builds are gone among others, additionally now the wizard can also no longer use Chronurgist, Gravitugist, and even Bladesinger since he is set to a certain world not to mention not having certain spells, and feats that are from other settings.
Answer: The whiteroom doesn’t care about such restrictions and if it did as I said we would be adding restrictions to each sides’ use of features, feats, spells, abilities, etc. And at that point what’s the point of this forum if we aren’t allowed to see who is stronger fighter or wizard when all we are doing is seeing who
Answer: The white room doesn’t care and why are you bringing up a DM making a campaign this is a whiteroom where all things are available and there are many builds a DM probably wouldn’t allow but why should he care everyone’s already at lvl 20 and are borderline gods while the wizard is one.
Answer: Yes it is a stretch but if you want a reason for why/how Discovery could be used to merit the use of Elven Accuracy (mind I know that Discovery has no RAW thing saying it grants this or that but not does it sa it can’t do what I want it to and all things considered the DM could have it happen).
Now as for how Discovery could be used to merit the use of Elven Accuracy is:
Garren Windstride was a master of the bow but when he entered the archery tournament in the northern lands of Wildafelt the land of the Wood Elves he was shown that while skilled he was no match for the skill of the elves. Sending himself to banishment for his own foolishness he went the the Silver Mist woods coming across a small Elven village huddle among the treetops and saw to his astonishment elves be able to hit the monstrosities miles away that lay on the grounds of the woods of the forest with keen precision. He watch and watch, replicating, watching, learning from their movements he studied for seven years and when the next archery tournament was held he set off. When he came and showed his skill the elves around him who also entered for fame were astounded as Garren was able to hit the feather from a miles away.
Or whatever you get the point it is totally possible for discovery to not only expand the world, but also give the ability to get Elven Accuracy for his discovery when he studied the elves techniques and such.
TLDR: Whiteroom uses everything it is given it doesn’t care if you don’t like that it uses things from wildemount and strixhaven all it does is make everything fair game. As for Discovery while it may seem cheap to you it is perfectly reasonable if not a great story point and role play opportunity for say a human in this example learn the Elves archery secrets perhaps those wood elves hunt him to keep their secrets, or they commend them for their ability to do such a thought impossible feat there are many ways/things you could do.
Do tell if I missed, misinterpreted, or misunderstood something.
Here is my best 20th level bladesinging wizard:
https://ddb.ac/characters/64568662/3rkivK
And here is an Echo Knight fighter I built to kill him:
https://ddb.ac/characters/65061988/qbTFJLe
Having a range of 1,600ft and being safely behind full cover really helps tip this in the fighters favor. But with 30AC, mirror image, simulacrum, clone and etherealness I don't see how the fighter can finish the job.
You pretty much have to feed the wizard to the fighter for fighter to win, you could deliberately make the wizard weak and let the fighter ambush them with ideal magic items and a custom Mage slaying set up, but than, that's not a contest between a wizard and fighter, it's a contest against a handicap and set up.
Given preparation, a wizard can win the vast majority of the time, and that doesn't require any added feats or special equipment, a wizard can true polymorph into a cr equal to their level, they can gate the plain of fire right onto the fighter, they can turn invisible and blind the foe with illusions. A prepared wizard can beat almost any fighter, but a prepared fighter can only address specific builds, and often times they would have to use magic items to even reach the wizard, a basic fly spell can leave many fighters plucking away with a bow, but if the wizard stuns a fighter, flies up and gates a Tarrasque on top of the fighter, he'll be swallowed and the acid of a Tarrasques stomach can dissolve artifacts, not just magic items and people.
Wizards aren't impervious, and can lose to a Fighter, but a fighter can always be killed by a Wizard at level 20.
The existence of Simulacrum and Clone makes this a trivial encounter for a Wizard
Whoever goes first can
either kill (fighter) or incapacitate (wizard) the other in a single round. Melee fighters are probably not going to like the outcome of this one, but a longbow outranges the wizard’s spells except for like, meteor swarm which is unlikely to one hit kill the fighter. Depends on the fighter, the initiative, whether or not the wizard is allowed to true polymorph before the fight, and how far away they start. Ask questions of more comparable things like two melee characters rather than a one round initiative contest that either party can win on their first turn.Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
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Nah wizards have spells that are 150 ft or farther and that's assuming the fighter gets the drop on the wizard which is...... exceedingly generous.
Plus there are wizard builds in this thread that can outlast even the best damage builds from fighter.
As said the wizard has like a 80-90% Chance to win if you go straight damage build fighter.
The only real shot is the arcane Archer build which uses a banishment arrow.
Longbow’s long range is 600 feet. I think people forget that you can attack rom that far, just with disadvantage. If the fight starts at 600 feet, a fighter with 20 dex and sharpshooter can bust the wizard before they can use their lower-range spells. I am not saying the fighter will win. I am saying it depends on a number of factors. If the wizard is allowed true polymorph before the battle, they will win regardless unless the fighter has slaying arrows of whatever the wizard became.
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Also action surges and subclass features mean 8 attacks at least, possibly more. Most wizards cannot survive that if subclass features boost the damage.
Royalty among the charge kingdom. All will fall before our glorious assault!
Quest offer! Enter the deep dungeon here
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