Let's just agree to disagree on the magic/mundane items stuff lol. Much love, I appreciate your points.
After running the numbers the AA can manage about 210 damage across 3 turns and 20 attacks with hex and banishing arrows against Dread. But that doesn't factor in his resistance to spell damage, so that number is cut down significantly. If the AA blows its load and uses both banishing arrows, then it has no meaningful way left to challenge concentration spells.
A Greatsword + Hex Battlemaster can reach just around 130 damage if they use precision attack and manage to land every one of their 8 hits. But again, that doesn't factor in spell resistance and assumes the precision attacks make the difference each time. And as a melee build will fall to a simple spell like Fly. Heavy Crossbow builds produce slightly less damage at around 120, which is enough for Dread to comfortably tank two turns of attacks if need be.
A Heavy Crossbow wielding Samurai reaches just under 130 themselves without the reliance on magic, but if they are forced to bonus action misty step out of a cage, then their damage for the turn goes down to 64 without Fighting Spirit.
I honestly don't think there is a fighter build that even has a chance of beating Dread.
Point One:
“Let's just agree to disagree on the magic/mundane items stuff lol. Much love, I appreciate your points.”
Answer: Haha yeah I get yours but the I feel it would go is ehh but I know what you mean.
Point two:
”After running the numbers the AA can manage about 210 damage across 3 turns and 20 attacks with hex and banishing arrows against Dread. But that doesn't factor in his resistance to spell damage, so that number is cut down significantly. If the AA blows its load and uses both banishing arrows, then it has no meaningful way left to challenge concentration spells.”
Answer: Good work, obviously I have no doubt with some hidden feats and stuff the AA could get close. Though all true.
Point three:
”A Greatsword + Hex Battlemaster can reach just around 130 damage if they use precision attack and manage to land every one of their 8 hits. But again, that doesn't factor in spell resistance and assumes the precision attacks make the difference each time. And as a melee build will fall to a simple spell like Fly. Heavy Crossbow builds produce slightly less damage at around 120, which is enough for Dread to comfortably tank two turns of attacks if need be.
A Heavy Crossbow wielding Samurai reaches just under 130 themselves without the reliance on magic, but if they are forced to bonus action misty step out of a cage, then their damage for the turn goes down to 64 without Fighting Spirit.”
Answer: Seems all about right.
Point Four:
“I honestly don't think there is a fighter build that even has a chance of beating Dread.“
Answer: I think their is but I’ll be back with you on that one haha... so to be continued?
Definitely not impressed by what you've produced here Brewksy. The entire reason you have any chance in this fight is because you've built using a broken race with a broken ability. That advantage on saves against magic is everything, and without it that Sickening Radiance has you dead. As far as I'm concerned all you've shown is how Yuan-ti cause problems for spellcasters, not how a Fighter does.
Your build is wearing plate illegally. And if they're going to have 1500+ gold worth of equipment then the wizard gets the materials to cast their spells. The fighter doesn't get a Ring of Protection. That isn't equivalent.
But none of that matters.
If you want to get creative, let's talk about what happens when the Wizard casts Wish for Simulacrum, and then has the Simulacrum cast Wish for Simulacrum. How about the Wizard traps the Champion in one of their domes (only 1 misty step) and then creates a chain of Simulacrum for the entire 10 minutes. Once the dome fades, a simulacrum casts another. Meanwhile the Simulacrums keep churning out more Simulacrums with Wish. Rinse and repeat until the Wizard gets bored. Think those damage calculations might have to change.
Your simulacrum can’t use Wish, the copy of you already cast It’s 9th level spell. And Fighters don’t wear Platemail “illegally”. This build specifically has a penalty but it’s not illegal. And fine, take off the plate mail and throw on Half Plate. I suggest checking out the rules before going on about what is “illegal”.
I love it when you state things are “broken” because you don’t like it.
Also, every idea you’ve come up with seems to disregard hit rolls and AC, and instead you’re calculating based on “all hits hitting”. I’ll start running the stats on your next build because as of now your current numbers are completely unrealistic.
Well I stand corrected on the the Wish-Simulacrum chain. and Plate. Never played with anyone that ate that penalty so I guess I just assumed it was illegal.
Your character died to a single Sickening Radiance before you switched the race from Dwarf to Yuan-Ti. So pointing out that it is the race doing the work, and not the class, is in fact a valid point. You can try to belittle my stance all you want, but the truth is your champion would be like wet tissue in a hurricane if it wasn't for being a Yuan-Ti.
I was assuming all the hits would hit for specifically the BATTLEMASTER using PRECISION ATTACK. Just to throw the build a bone to see how viable it was when things went well. I haven't been disregarding hit rolls and AC. The Wizard can create scenarios where the fighter is trapped and will die eventually, no matter how many saves are passed (without the illegal simulacrum cheese). Many others have illustrated how. The fighter is the only one that needs to worry about attack rolls. That is what I have been calculating. I'm genuinely confused. I made the scenario MORE favorable for the fighter. I wasn't doing it to benefit the Wizard.
Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.
Definitely not impressed by what you've produced here Brewksy. The entire reason you have any chance in this fight is because you've built using a broken race with a broken ability. That advantage on saves against magic is everything, and without it that Sickening Radiance has you dead. As far as I'm concerned all you've shown is how Yuan-ti cause problems for spellcasters, not how a Fighter does.
Your build is wearing plate illegally. And if they're going to have 1500+ gold worth of equipment then the wizard gets the materials to cast their spells. The fighter doesn't get a Ring of Protection. That isn't equivalent.
But none of that matters.
If you want to get creative, let's talk about what happens when the Wizard casts Wish for Simulacrum, and then has the Simulacrum cast Wish for Simulacrum. How about the Wizard traps the Champion in one of their domes (only 1 misty step) and then creates a chain of Simulacrum for the entire 10 minutes. Once the dome fades, a simulacrum casts another. Meanwhile the Simulacrums keep churning out more Simulacrums with Wish. Rinse and repeat until the Wizard gets bored. Think those damage calculations might have to change.
Your simulacrum can’t use Wish, the copy of you already cast It’s 9th level spell. And Fighters don’t wear Platemail “illegally”. This build specifically has a penalty but it’s not illegal. And fine, take off the plate mail and throw on Half Plate. I suggest checking out the rules before going on about what is “illegal”.
I love it when you state things are “broken” because you don’t like it.
Also, every idea you’ve come up with seems to disregard hit rolls and AC, and instead you’re calculating based on “all hits hitting”. I’ll start running the stats on your next build because as of now your current numbers are completely unrealistic.
Well I stand corrected on the the Wish-Simulacrum chain. and Plate. Never played with anyone that ate that penalty so I guess I just assumed it was illegal.
Your character died to a single Sickening Radiance before you switched the race from Dwarf to Yuan-Ti. So pointing out that it is the race doing the work, and not the class, is in fact a valid point. You can try to belittle my stance all you want, but the truth is your champion would be like wet tissue in a hurricane if it wasn't for being a Yuan-Ti.
I was assuming all the hits would hit for specifically the BATTLEMASTER using PRECISION ATTACK. Just to throw the build a bone to see how viable it was when things went well. I haven't been disregarding hit rolls and AC. The Wizard can create scenarios where the fighter is trapped and will die eventually, no matter how many saves are passed (without the illegal simulacrum cheese). Many others have illustrated how. The fighter is the only one that needs to worry about attack rolls. That is what I have been calculating. I'm genuinely confused. I made the scenario MORE favorable for the fighter. I wasn't doing it to benefit the Wizard.
Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.
Point One: Double
“Your simulacrum can’t use Wish, the copy of you already cast It’s 9th level spell.”
”Well I stand corrected on the the Wish-Simulacrum chain.“
Answer: Well yes but no... as in you can do a chain but no as in not right off the bat. When the simulacrum is created it comes in as a duplicate (with the obvious differences shown in the spell, like no equipment, etc) that means if you used a 9th level spell slot the simulacrum being a duplicate it would have all of your spell slots minus the 9th as it was used by use to cast the spell. To do the chain you need to ether cast simulacrum normally or take a long rest and do so again to initiate the chain. But then again the chain hit another “problem” of the last blip of text at the end of the spell. The last blip is of the spell reads “If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed.” The main two points of this blip is “If you cast this spell again“ and “duplicates you created” but these can be bypassed by the simulacrum casting simulacrum as that means you are not casting the spell but the simulacrum is. But of course their are some arguments that try to disable the “cheese” but they aren’t that great.
Point two: Double
”And Fighters don’t wear Platemail “illegally”. This build specifically has a penalty but it’s not illegal. And fine, take off the plate mail and throw on Half Plate. I suggest checking out the rules before going on about what is “illegal”.“
”Never played with anyone that ate that penalty so I guess I just assumed it was illegal.“
Answer: Your talking about the strength requirement (right?) if so yeah the 10ft deduction on movement isn’t that big (even if it affects maneuverability). Though in the world of the correct only starting gold or equipment is allowed so your both illegal (Haha).
Point Three: Double
“I love it when you state things are “broken” because you don’t like it.“
”Your character died to a single Sickening Radiance before you switched the race from Dwarf to Yuan-Ti. So pointing out that it is the race doing the work, and not the class, is in fact a valid point. You can try to belittle my stance all you want, but the truth is your champion would be like wet tissue in a hurricane if it wasn't for being a Yuan-Ti.“
Answer: Yes some say Yuan-ti pure bloods are “broken” but that goes for Aarakocra and the Variant human too as they both are also very strong. As with the “race doing the work” well it is fighter vs wizard and as a part of being a fighter ba wizard battle they require characters and therefore races so yes the choice of race should be doing some work as that is the point of this battle to see who is stronger and how can we do that without considering the possibilities at hand (races, subclasses, feats, spells, etc).
Point Four: Double
”Also, every idea you’ve come up with seems to disregard hit rolls and AC, and instead you’re calculating based on “all hits hitting”. I’ll start running the stats on your next build because as of now your current numbers are completely unrealistic.“
”I was assuming all the hits would hit for specifically the BATTLEMASTER using PRECISION ATTACK. Just to throw the build a bone to see how viable it was when things went well. I haven't been disregarding hit rolls and AC. The Wizard can create scenarios where the fighter is trapped and will die eventually, no matter how many saves are passed (without the illegal simulacrum cheese). Many others have illustrated how. The fighter is the only one that needs to worry about attack rolls. That is what I have been calculating. I'm genuinely confused. I made the scenario MORE favorable for the fighter. I wasn't doing it to benefit the Wizard.
Answer: Well if you put your wizard at his worst against a fighter at his best and the wizard still wins who do you think proved the stronger (my point is made). And I find that HeironymusZot did well (as far as I can see haha). As with the rest of the second I already answered it mostly in my previous answers.
Point five:
”I’ll start running the stats on your next build because as of now your current numbers are completely unrealistic.“
”Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.”
Answer: I encourage both of you to run the stats to you might find something interesting perhaps.
Well I stand corrected on the the Wish-Simulacrum chain. and Plate. Never played with anyone that ate that penalty so I guess I just assumed it was illegal.
Your character died to a single Sickening Radiance before you switched the race from Dwarf to Yuan-Ti. So pointing out that it is the race doing the work, and not the class, is in fact a valid point. You can try to belittle my stance all you want, but the truth is your champion would be like wet tissue in a hurricane if it wasn't for being a Yuan-Ti.
I was assuming all the hits would hit for specifically the BATTLEMASTER using PRECISION ATTACK. Just to throw the build a bone to see how viable it was when things went well. I haven't been disregarding hit rolls and AC. The Wizard can create scenarios where the fighter is trapped and will die eventually, no matter how many saves are passed (without the illegal simulacrum cheese). Many others have illustrated how. The fighter is the only one that needs to worry about attack rolls. That is what I have been calculating. I'm genuinely confused. I made the scenario MORE favorable for the fighter. I wasn't doing it to benefit the Wizard.
Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.
Point One:
“Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.“
Answer: I’ll try...
But first all go over your build (and somethings) with my opinion (is much easier than doing a build at the moment) I find the amount of HP great with along with your ward as it totals at 265 hp to be done. Though the initiative horrible at a +2 meaning strength builds are also viable. As I look back at your stats... well their horrible except for Con being a 20. Additionally, as being a non Chronurgist you don’t get temporal shunt and/or roll manipulation (like the divination). The main part of your build is to survive the first round not win it or reaction it away so let’s see if it survives!
First Thought is Arcane Archer Build (Maximize Nova and banishing arrow build as Dread’s Cha is garbage and the abjurations advantage against spells is against spells not magical effects as the banishing arrows are):
These rounds are under the assumption that all attacks hit and deal average damage and that banishing arrow succeeds in banishing on the last arrow as your stats are pretty bad so ehh.
The build is like 20 Dex, Longbow, Feats: Magic Initiate (Hex), Martial Adept, lucky and the race is Goblin for Bonus action hide and Fury of the small for 20 more damage (you could also do aasimer for the damage but every turn although you’d lose an action so not worth it).
First Round: Bonus Action = Hex choose Strength checks, Action 4 arrows, Action Surge 4 arrows, Last arrow is banish.
Second Round: Wizard returns
Action 4 arrows, action surge 4 arrows, last arrow is banish.
Third Round:
Action 4 arrows
Fourth Round:
if there is cover on the battle field the goblin would have moved to it and on the last round hid to see if it can try to get one last volley if the wizard wasn’t dead.
So total normal arrows are 7 + 7 + 4 and then two banishing arrows for a total of 18 normal and two banishing. The normal arrows have hex so and are from a longbow so that’s (1d8 (4.5) + 1d6 (3.5) + 5) x 18 for a total of 234 plus two banishing arrows that are 2d6 (7) each for a total of 248 BUT as a goblin the goblin can use fury of the small adding 20 more damage for a no true grand total as that one superiority die (d6/3.5) is there for now for a true grand total of 271.5 damage In total (And yes I did the lame math of just average so no Critical rolls or other math stuff haha). At being 271.5 that means you couldn’t even miss one arrow but you’d have that one superiority die for Precision strike and also have lucky and whatever to help out on any you might miss.
There are more builds in mind but I doubt they could do the same damage or perform well so I might or might not do them in another post as this one is too long already. Hope you enjoyed my no doubt probably horrible math (Haha).
It is easily possible to squish a wizard in one round, but not as a single class fighter. The whole point of the fighter is that they can keep going long after the casters run out of spell slots, so comparing them in a single one-shot fight is a very bad idea - there is no contest!
Although a half-orc samurai might last just about long enough to survive 3 turns (that's enough time to make 24 attacks with a greatsword with advantage) - and then your squishy wizard might well have died. Or you could restrain them with a Fire rune (go rune knights!) so they can't cast spells. But on the whole, the wizard would win this fight.
Couple little thing De4thkn1ght: Dread's total HP pool over 3 turns is 269, since casting shield on turns 2 and 3 both replace two HP on the Ward. Insignificant detail in the end.
Since the AA only crits on a 20, and your calculations assume all hits, then it's easy to say 1/20 is a crit. Also, those banishing arrows deal an additional 2d6 damage, they don't have their damage replaced.
Arcane Archer with Banishing Arrows and Hex:
17 normal hits: (1d8 (4.5) + 1d6 (3.5) +5) x 17 = 221
Starting at 14th level, you have advantage on saving throws against spells.
Furthermore, you have resistance against the damage of spells.
Between the 20 arrows with one critical, that is 21d6 (73.5) worth of hex damage. That gets halved to 36.75.
282-36 = 246
Dread survives. Just barely, but bloodied and smiling, he's ready to kick that archer's teeth in.
Stephanie252: Restrained doesn't stop the wizard from casting spells. A rune knight (while one of my favorite classes) is a soft target.
Restrained:
A restrained creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.
Also it's pointless for the Samurai to build for survivability because they lose to Invulnerability (or other, more twisted methods of winning essentially immediately, there are plenty sprinkled in this thread by other posters) followed by the Wizard doing whatever the hell they want to the Samurai. That Half-Orc version is going to deal significantly less damage than an elven accuracy based build, which doesn't even deal enough damage in one round itself. The ways the level 20 Wizard has to win bypass what limited survivability you could bake into the Samurai, and effectively end the match in one turn, despite taking multiple to actually kill. This leaves them with one option: kill on sight. Which they fail to achieve.
Somatic components require free use of at least one hand. while you have fiery manacles on your wrists, you're not going to manage that one. Not all spells sure, but enough.
And yes, wizards will almost invariably win a one shot fight (polymorph then power word kill does for pretty much everything too). But they may very well lose the second or third.
The Fire Rune ability does not specify that it summons manacles on the wrist. You're inserting your own visualization of the ability into the mechanics of the feature.
Fire Rune doesn't even use the word manacles. It summons fiery shackles.
Shackles are commonly used on the legs. The whole ball and chain motif. Considering that the first bullet of the restrained condition is the creature's speed becomes zero, it's logical to assume the shackles are attached in a way that actually restricts walking.
The Restrained condition does not stop spellcasting in any form. Because of that, the Fire Rune ability would have to have text specifying that it stops the target from using somatic components. It does not have any such text. You're free to rule on this ability however you want in your own games, but RAW, Fire Rune does nothing to stop spellcasting.
And yes, wizards will almost invariably win a one shot fight (polymorph then power word kill does for pretty much everything too). But they may very well lose the second or third.
That sentence is exactly why I built Dread the way I did. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/HeironymusZot/characters/43133538. To shut down the fighter's ability to say, "well, I have X% to win initiative, and then if I get really good attack and damage rolls I have a shot at winning."
He survives an Arcane Archer that manages to land ALL 20 hex boosted shots thanks to two banishing arrows over three turns. Just eats it up.
The Fire Rune ability does not specify that it summons manacles on the wrist. You're inserting your own visualization of the ability into the mechanics of the feature.
Fire Rune doesn't even use the word manacles. It summons fiery shackles.
Shackles are commonly used on the legs. The whole ball and chain motif. Considering that the first bullet of the restrained condition is the creature's speed becomes zero, it's logical to assume the shackles are attached in a way that actually restricts walking.
The Restrained condition does not stop spellcasting in any form. Because of that, the Fire Rune ability would have to have text specifying that it stops the target from using somatic components. It does not have any such text. You're free to rule on this ability however you want in your own games, but RAW, Fire Rune does nothing to stop spellcasting.
Second this....
Features only do what they say they do and nothing more. If they state they impose the Restrained condition and nothing else then you are simply Restrained. The Restrained condition has specific effects it imparts on you and nothing else.
Rune knight would need to quickly kill the Wizard and go first to win I would think but it has a decent chance to do it. At the minimum they can become too big to be affected by force cage at least!
Couple little thing De4thkn1ght: Dread's total HP pool over 3 turns is 269, since casting shield on turns 2 and 3 both replace two HP on the Ward. Insignificant detail in the end.
Since the AA only crits on a 20, and your calculations assume all hits, then it's easy to say 1/20 is a crit. Also, those banishing arrows deal an additional 2d6 damage, they don't have their damage replaced.
Arcane Archer with Banishing Arrows and Hex:
17 normal hits: (1d8 (4.5) + 1d6 (3.5) +5) x 17 = 221
Starting at 14th level, you have advantage on saving throws against spells.
Furthermore, you have resistance against the damage of spells.
Between the 20 arrows with one critical, that is 21d6 (73.5) worth of hex damage. That gets halved to 36.75.
282-36 = 246
Dread survives. Just barely, but bloodied and smiling, he's ready to kick that archer's teeth in.
To be fair I do not believe the extra arrow damage counts as "spell damage" as the arrows are technically not a spell but you are correct on the Hex damage.
If they were a spell it would be easy as you could simply counter spell the banish arrow.
I didn't reduce the Banishing Arrow damage with spell resistance. Just the 2d6 hex damage from the crit and 19d6 hex damage from non crits.
The Arcane Archer was the impetus for me building Dread the way I did, because their routine is actually kind of problematic and leaves room for "X% of the time I can pull this off against you and win". Doesn't matter how lucky the AA gets on initiative and banishing arrows, the odds of them dealing enough damage through a massive amount of hits and crits is so astronomically low it's basically never going to happen.
I didn't reduce the Banishing Arrow damage with spell resistance. Just the 2d6 hex damage from the crit and 19d6 hex damage from non crits.
The Arcane Archer was the impetus for me building Dread the way I did, because their routine is actually kind of problematic and leaves room for "X% of the time I can pull this off against you and win". Doesn't matter how lucky the AA gets on initiative and banishing arrows, the odds of them dealing enough damage through a massive amount of hits and crits is so astronomically low it's basically never going to happen.
Ah Fair enough then! Yeah also the whole Maze-->Wish for a Sim-->Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo would work well for Dread as well as even tho his DC is lower (17) the amount of saves the Archer would need to do (100) they would likely have almost no chance of surviving. Especially when the exhaustion starts imposing DIS on saves....
Oh nice I didn't realize the third level imparted disadvantage on saves. Spicy. Considering that, and the fact that you can put someone through multiple cycles of this combo, I don't see how even the Yuan-Ti could survive. You don't need a high DC for hundreds of saves to eventually kill someone. The disadvantage clause just makes that even more inevitable.
That sentence is exactly why I built Dread the way I did. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/HeironymusZot/characters/43133538. To shut down the fighter's ability to say, "well, I have X% to win initiative, and then if I get really good attack and damage rolls I have a shot at winning."
He survives an Arcane Archer that manages to land ALL 20 hex boosted shots thanks to two banishing arrows over three turns. Just eats it up.
I don't mean the second or third round, I mean second or third fight. The fighter has actual, legitimate durability. If you did a best out of three without resting in between, chances are the fighter wins.
I didn't reduce the Banishing Arrow damage with spell resistance. Just the 2d6 hex damage from the crit and 19d6 hex damage from non crits.
The Arcane Archer was the impetus for me building Dread the way I did, because their routine is actually kind of problematic and leaves room for "X% of the time I can pull this off against you and win". Doesn't matter how lucky the AA gets on initiative and banishing arrows, the odds of them dealing enough damage through a massive amount of hits and crits is so astronomically low it's basically never going to happen.
I know exactly what you meant Stephanie.
Dread is built to eliminate that.
Edit:
Wait...I thought I knew what you meant. How can there be multiple rounds with no rest if the Fighter dies in the first one? You're saying if the fighter gets infinite revives, eventually he'll come back and kill the wizard? Sure, I guess. But that's just ridiculous and not a scenario I feel warrants being entertained because now, not only have you taken the wizard and put him in a white room scenario that takes away many of his key play patterns, but are also giving the fighter infinite lives. That's an incredibly silly way to prop up the Fighter.
Point One:
“Let's just agree to disagree on the magic/mundane items stuff lol. Much love, I appreciate your points.”
Answer: Haha yeah I get yours but the I feel it would go is ehh but I know what you mean.
Point two:
”After running the numbers the AA can manage about 210 damage across 3 turns and 20 attacks with hex and banishing arrows against Dread. But that doesn't factor in his resistance to spell damage, so that number is cut down significantly. If the AA blows its load and uses both banishing arrows, then it has no meaningful way left to challenge concentration spells.”
Answer: Good work, obviously I have no doubt with some hidden feats and stuff the AA could get close. Though all true.
Point three:
”A Greatsword + Hex Battlemaster can reach just around 130 damage if they use precision attack and manage to land every one of their 8 hits. But again, that doesn't factor in spell resistance and assumes the precision attacks make the difference each time. And as a melee build will fall to a simple spell like Fly. Heavy Crossbow builds produce slightly less damage at around 120, which is enough for Dread to comfortably tank two turns of attacks if need be.
A Heavy Crossbow wielding Samurai reaches just under 130 themselves without the reliance on magic, but if they are forced to bonus action misty step out of a cage, then their damage for the turn goes down to 64 without Fighting Spirit.”
Answer: Seems all about right.
Point Four:
“I honestly don't think there is a fighter build that even has a chance of beating Dread.“
Answer: I think their is but I’ll be back with you on that one haha... so to be continued?
Your simulacrum can’t use Wish, the copy of you already cast It’s 9th level spell. And Fighters don’t wear Platemail “illegally”. This build specifically has a penalty but it’s not illegal. And fine, take off the plate mail and throw on Half Plate. I suggest checking out the rules before going on about what is “illegal”.
I love it when you state things are “broken” because you don’t like it.
Also, every idea you’ve come up with seems to disregard hit rolls and AC, and instead you’re calculating based on “all hits hitting”. I’ll start running the stats on your next build because as of now your current numbers are completely unrealistic.
Well I stand corrected on the the Wish-Simulacrum chain. and Plate. Never played with anyone that ate that penalty so I guess I just assumed it was illegal.
Your character died to a single Sickening Radiance before you switched the race from Dwarf to Yuan-Ti. So pointing out that it is the race doing the work, and not the class, is in fact a valid point. You can try to belittle my stance all you want, but the truth is your champion would be like wet tissue in a hurricane if it wasn't for being a Yuan-Ti.
I was assuming all the hits would hit for specifically the BATTLEMASTER using PRECISION ATTACK. Just to throw the build a bone to see how viable it was when things went well. I haven't been disregarding hit rolls and AC. The Wizard can create scenarios where the fighter is trapped and will die eventually, no matter how many saves are passed (without the illegal simulacrum cheese). Many others have illustrated how. The fighter is the only one that needs to worry about attack rolls. That is what I have been calculating. I'm genuinely confused. I made the scenario MORE favorable for the fighter. I wasn't doing it to benefit the Wizard.
Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.
Point One: Double
“Your simulacrum can’t use Wish, the copy of you already cast It’s 9th level spell.”
”Well I stand corrected on the the Wish-Simulacrum chain.“
Answer: Well yes but no... as in you can do a chain but no as in not right off the bat. When the simulacrum is created it comes in as a duplicate (with the obvious differences shown in the spell, like no equipment, etc) that means if you used a 9th level spell slot the simulacrum being a duplicate it would have all of your spell slots minus the 9th as it was used by use to cast the spell. To do the chain you need to ether cast simulacrum normally or take a long rest and do so again to initiate the chain. But then again the chain hit another “problem” of the last blip of text at the end of the spell. The last blip is of the spell reads “If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed.” The main two points of this blip is “If you cast this spell again“ and “duplicates you created” but these can be bypassed by the simulacrum casting simulacrum as that means you are not casting the spell but the simulacrum is. But of course their are some arguments that try to disable the “cheese” but they aren’t that great.
Point two: Double
”And Fighters don’t wear Platemail “illegally”. This build specifically has a penalty but it’s not illegal. And fine, take off the plate mail and throw on Half Plate. I suggest checking out the rules before going on about what is “illegal”.“
”Never played with anyone that ate that penalty so I guess I just assumed it was illegal.“
Answer: Your talking about the strength requirement (right?) if so yeah the 10ft deduction on movement isn’t that big (even if it affects maneuverability). Though in the world of the correct only starting gold or equipment is allowed so your both illegal (Haha).
Point Three: Double
“I love it when you state things are “broken” because you don’t like it.“
”Your character died to a single Sickening Radiance before you switched the race from Dwarf to Yuan-Ti. So pointing out that it is the race doing the work, and not the class, is in fact a valid point. You can try to belittle my stance all you want, but the truth is your champion would be like wet tissue in a hurricane if it wasn't for being a Yuan-Ti.“
Answer: Yes some say Yuan-ti pure bloods are “broken” but that goes for Aarakocra and the Variant human too as they both are also very strong. As with the “race doing the work” well it is fighter vs wizard and as a part of being a fighter ba wizard battle they require characters and therefore races so yes the choice of race should be doing some work as that is the point of this battle to see who is stronger and how can we do that without considering the possibilities at hand (races, subclasses, feats, spells, etc).
Point Four: Double
”Also, every idea you’ve come up with seems to disregard hit rolls and AC, and instead you’re calculating based on “all hits hitting”. I’ll start running the stats on your next build because as of now your current numbers are completely unrealistic.“
”I was assuming all the hits would hit for specifically the BATTLEMASTER using PRECISION ATTACK. Just to throw the build a bone to see how viable it was when things went well. I haven't been disregarding hit rolls and AC. The Wizard can create scenarios where the fighter is trapped and will die eventually, no matter how many saves are passed (without the illegal simulacrum cheese). Many others have illustrated how. The fighter is the only one that needs to worry about attack rolls. That is what I have been calculating. I'm genuinely confused. I made the scenario MORE favorable for the fighter. I wasn't doing it to benefit the Wizard.
Answer: Well if you put your wizard at his worst against a fighter at his best and the wizard still wins who do you think proved the stronger (my point is made). And I find that HeironymusZot did well (as far as I can see haha). As with the rest of the second I already answered it mostly in my previous answers.
Point five:
”I’ll start running the stats on your next build because as of now your current numbers are completely unrealistic.“
”Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.”
Answer: I encourage both of you to run the stats to you might find something interesting perhaps.
Point One:
“Go ahead, do some calculations. I posted my build already. See how many turns it takes for you to kill him with your champion. Then remember that if the answer is "more than 1", you lose.“
Answer: I’ll try...
But first all go over your build (and somethings) with my opinion (is much easier than doing a build at the moment) I find the amount of HP great with along with your ward as it totals at 265 hp to be done. Though the initiative horrible at a +2 meaning strength builds are also viable. As I look back at your stats... well their horrible except for Con being a 20. Additionally, as being a non Chronurgist you don’t get temporal shunt and/or roll manipulation (like the divination). The main part of your build is to survive the first round not win it or reaction it away so let’s see if it survives!
First Thought is Arcane Archer Build (Maximize Nova and banishing arrow build as Dread’s Cha is garbage and the abjurations advantage against spells is against spells not magical effects as the banishing arrows are):
These rounds are under the assumption that all attacks hit and deal average damage and that banishing arrow succeeds in banishing on the last arrow as your stats are pretty bad so ehh.
The build is like 20 Dex, Longbow, Feats: Magic Initiate (Hex), Martial Adept, lucky and the race is Goblin for Bonus action hide and Fury of the small for 20 more damage (you could also do aasimer for the damage but every turn although you’d lose an action so not worth it).
First Round: Bonus Action = Hex choose Strength checks, Action 4 arrows, Action Surge 4 arrows, Last arrow is banish.
Second Round: Wizard returns
Action 4 arrows, action surge 4 arrows, last arrow is banish.
Third Round:
Action 4 arrows
Fourth Round:
if there is cover on the battle field the goblin would have moved to it and on the last round hid to see if it can try to get one last volley if the wizard wasn’t dead.
So total normal arrows are 7 + 7 + 4 and then two banishing arrows for a total of 18 normal and two banishing. The normal arrows have hex so and are from a longbow so that’s (1d8 (4.5) + 1d6 (3.5) + 5) x 18 for a total of 234 plus two banishing arrows that are 2d6 (7) each for a total of 248 BUT as a goblin the goblin can use fury of the small adding 20 more damage for a no true grand total as that one superiority die (d6/3.5) is there for now for a true grand total of 271.5 damage In total (And yes I did the lame math of just average so no Critical rolls or other math stuff haha). At being 271.5 that means you couldn’t even miss one arrow but you’d have that one superiority die for Precision strike and also have lucky and whatever to help out on any you might miss.
There are more builds in mind but I doubt they could do the same damage or perform well so I might or might not do them in another post as this one is too long already. Hope you enjoyed my no doubt probably horrible math (Haha).
It is easily possible to squish a wizard in one round, but not as a single class fighter. The whole point of the fighter is that they can keep going long after the casters run out of spell slots, so comparing them in a single one-shot fight is a very bad idea - there is no contest!
Although a half-orc samurai might last just about long enough to survive 3 turns (that's enough time to make 24 attacks with a greatsword with advantage) - and then your squishy wizard might well have died. Or you could restrain them with a Fire rune (go rune knights!) so they can't cast spells. But on the whole, the wizard would win this fight.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Couple little thing De4thkn1ght: Dread's total HP pool over 3 turns is 269, since casting shield on turns 2 and 3 both replace two HP on the Ward. Insignificant detail in the end.
Since the AA only crits on a 20, and your calculations assume all hits, then it's easy to say 1/20 is a crit. Also, those banishing arrows deal an additional 2d6 damage, they don't have their damage replaced.
Arcane Archer with Banishing Arrows and Hex:
17 normal hits: (1d8 (4.5) + 1d6 (3.5) +5) x 17 = 221
1 critical: (2d8 + 2d6 + 5) = 21
2 banishing arrows: (1d8 + 1d6 + 5 + 2d6) x 2 = 40
Grand Total = 282
But wait...
Abjuration Wizard Level 14:
Between the 20 arrows with one critical, that is 21d6 (73.5) worth of hex damage. That gets halved to 36.75.
282-36 = 246
Dread survives. Just barely, but bloodied and smiling, he's ready to kick that archer's teeth in.
Stephanie252: Restrained doesn't stop the wizard from casting spells. A rune knight (while one of my favorite classes) is a soft target.
Restrained:
Also it's pointless for the Samurai to build for survivability because they lose to Invulnerability (or other, more twisted methods of winning essentially immediately, there are plenty sprinkled in this thread by other posters) followed by the Wizard doing whatever the hell they want to the Samurai. That Half-Orc version is going to deal significantly less damage than an elven accuracy based build, which doesn't even deal enough damage in one round itself. The ways the level 20 Wizard has to win bypass what limited survivability you could bake into the Samurai, and effectively end the match in one turn, despite taking multiple to actually kill. This leaves them with one option: kill on sight. Which they fail to achieve.
Somatic components require free use of at least one hand. while you have fiery manacles on your wrists, you're not going to manage that one. Not all spells sure, but enough.
And yes, wizards will almost invariably win a one shot fight (polymorph then power word kill does for pretty much everything too). But they may very well lose the second or third.
Chilling kinda vibe.
The Fire Rune ability does not specify that it summons manacles on the wrist. You're inserting your own visualization of the ability into the mechanics of the feature.
Fire Rune doesn't even use the word manacles. It summons fiery shackles.
Shackles are commonly used on the legs. The whole ball and chain motif. Considering that the first bullet of the restrained condition is the creature's speed becomes zero, it's logical to assume the shackles are attached in a way that actually restricts walking.
The Restrained condition does not stop spellcasting in any form. Because of that, the Fire Rune ability would have to have text specifying that it stops the target from using somatic components. It does not have any such text. You're free to rule on this ability however you want in your own games, but RAW, Fire Rune does nothing to stop spellcasting.
That sentence is exactly why I built Dread the way I did. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/HeironymusZot/characters/43133538. To shut down the fighter's ability to say, "well, I have X% to win initiative, and then if I get really good attack and damage rolls I have a shot at winning."
He survives an Arcane Archer that manages to land ALL 20 hex boosted shots thanks to two banishing arrows over three turns. Just eats it up.
Second this....
Features only do what they say they do and nothing more. If they state they impose the Restrained condition and nothing else then you are simply Restrained. The Restrained condition has specific effects it imparts on you and nothing else.
Rune knight would need to quickly kill the Wizard and go first to win I would think but it has a decent chance to do it. At the minimum they can become too big to be affected by force cage at least!
To be fair I do not believe the extra arrow damage counts as "spell damage" as the arrows are technically not a spell but you are correct on the Hex damage.
If they were a spell it would be easy as you could simply counter spell the banish arrow.
I didn't reduce the Banishing Arrow damage with spell resistance. Just the 2d6 hex damage from the crit and 19d6 hex damage from non crits.
The Arcane Archer was the impetus for me building Dread the way I did, because their routine is actually kind of problematic and leaves room for "X% of the time I can pull this off against you and win". Doesn't matter how lucky the AA gets on initiative and banishing arrows, the odds of them dealing enough damage through a massive amount of hits and crits is so astronomically low it's basically never going to happen.
Ah Fair enough then! Yeah also the whole Maze-->Wish for a Sim-->Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance combo would work well for Dread as well as even tho his DC is lower (17) the amount of saves the Archer would need to do (100) they would likely have almost no chance of surviving. Especially when the exhaustion starts imposing DIS on saves....
Oh nice I didn't realize the third level imparted disadvantage on saves. Spicy. Considering that, and the fact that you can put someone through multiple cycles of this combo, I don't see how even the Yuan-Ti could survive. You don't need a high DC for hundreds of saves to eventually kill someone. The disadvantage clause just makes that even more inevitable.
I don't mean the second or third round, I mean second or third fight. The fighter has actual, legitimate durability. If you did a best out of three without resting in between, chances are the fighter wins.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I know exactly what you meant Stephanie.
Dread is built to eliminate that.
Edit:
Wait...I thought I knew what you meant. How can there be multiple rounds with no rest if the Fighter dies in the first one? You're saying if the fighter gets infinite revives, eventually he'll come back and kill the wizard? Sure, I guess. But that's just ridiculous and not a scenario I feel warrants being entertained because now, not only have you taken the wizard and put him in a white room scenario that takes away many of his key play patterns, but are also giving the fighter infinite lives. That's an incredibly silly way to prop up the Fighter.
How do you cope with losing your spell slots? They aren't infinite, you know.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I edited my post Stephanie. I misunderstood what you said. That's what I get for being so sure of myself lol
I know the feeling (a little too well for my liking).
Chilling kinda vibe.
What I'm saying is that in an adventure you won't fight a single fight. So it's silly to compare them on the basis of a single fight.
Chilling kinda vibe.