Also the strategy of Simulacrum/Wish means you effectively double your spell slots.....so you have a LOT of chances with Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance.
You would have 5 castings of Wall of Force (3 5th levels, 1 6th level, 1 7th level) from the simulacrum
You would have 8 castings of Sickening Radiance (3 4th level, 3 5th level, 1 6th level, 1 7th level) from you.
Since the Archer has literally no way of getting out of the microwave once they are in it....they would have to survive 5 different encounters of 100 saves in which they only have to fail 6 to die instantly.
Its just....not really good for the fighter even if you consider multiple encounters
Thats just how stupid crazy wizards are at 20th level.
Simulacrums are enormously squishy. Most of them won't stand up to a single hit. A dragonborn could use its breath weapon and that's half the simulacrums gone.
Simulacrums are enormously squishy. Most of them won't stand up to a single hit. A dragonborn could use its breath weapon and that's half the simulacrums gone.
They have half the hit points of their creator....if you are using dread its like 110 hp.....
So no not at all really.
Also if you kill the sim you still have a full wizard to deal with that has not taken any hits...so yeah no way a fighter wins even in several encounters.
Simulacrums are enormously squishy. Most of them won't stand up to a single hit. A dragonborn could use its breath weapon and that's half the simulacrums gone.
They have half the hit points of their creator....if you are using dread its like 110 hp.....
So no not at all really.
Also if you kill the sim you still have a full wizard to deal with that has not taken any hits...so yeah no way a fighter wins even in several encounters.
I did this once. The HP drops off really quickly - you have one at 110HP, 55HP, 27HP, 13HP, 6HP, 3HP, 1HP.
Simulacrums are enormously squishy. Most of them won't stand up to a single hit. A dragonborn could use its breath weapon and that's half the simulacrums gone.
They have half the hit points of their creator....if you are using dread its like 110 hp.....
So no not at all really.
Also if you kill the sim you still have a full wizard to deal with that has not taken any hits...so yeah no way a fighter wins even in several encounters.
I did this once. The HP drops off really quickly - you have one at 110HP, 55HP, 27HP, 13HP, 6HP, 3HP, 1HP.
OH So you are talking SEVERAL Sims....then the fighter really has no chance whatsoever as it compounds the situation completely.
If you are giving the wizard more than 1 sim its not even a fair fight....its a wholesale slaughter of the fighter with little to no recourse.
My plan was just 1 wizard / 1 Sim which is enough to kill a fighter with no recourse....as they have no way of getting out of a Wall of Force.
You compound that with several more sims....man its just nutty.
You also don't generally fight the same enemy you already killed while adventuring. And besides, this has been a white room scenario fight, not a "what happens when these two cross paths in a real adventure" fight. If you want to try and instill that sense of realism into the competition then the Fighter is so out of his league it isn't funny.
A 20th level Wizard walks around accompanied by a simulacrum, both of which have Contingency set to something defensive like dimension door or resilient sphere and have the trigger set to when they're hit by an attack. That's just what you do as an epic wizard.
Any plans the fighter thinks they have can be foiled in a moment's notice, and the Wizard doesn't even have to be aware. And let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Fighter pulls off the impossible and manages to kill the Wizard somehow. Well, there's a clone sequestered somewhere safe. The Wizard, in his new body, plots his revenge. So the wizard actually has a way to resurrect himself, while the fighter is getting handwaved in.
Edit: Woah, so many posts happened while I was thinking about what to say.
Simulacrums are enormously squishy. Most of them won't stand up to a single hit. A dragonborn could use its breath weapon and that's half the simulacrums gone.
They have half the hit points of their creator....if you are using dread its like 110 hp.....
So no not at all really.
Also if you kill the sim you still have a full wizard to deal with that has not taken any hits...so yeah no way a fighter wins even in several encounters.
Yes Dread's simulacrum's are beefy bois. 111 HP + 43 HP Ward with Spell Mastery for Shield to recharge and make their AC not complete crap. HP wise, that's more than your average 16 con non-Abjuration wizard (142 HP). Have fun chewing through that if for some reason you haven't been thrown in the microwave already.
Level 20 Fighter (Fighting Style: Archery), Goblin, Knight Background (Retainers). Stats: 20 Dex. Feats: Lucky, Sharpshooter, Martial Adept (Precision Strike), and Magic Initiate (Hex). Arcane Archer. The Arrows have a +13 to hit against your 24 AC (With Shield) so it is in the realm of possibility that the AA can beat your Dread.
So your build (Dread) would have a total of 269 hp using shield.
I assume all attacks hit (With one Crit as 20 Arrows are shot):
First Round: Cast Hex on Wizard (Dis. Str), Action 4 Arrows, Action Surge 4 Arrows, Last Arrow is banishing.
Second Round: Action 4 Arrows, Action Surge 4 Arrows, Hide bonus action (Behind Cover? Perhaps buy a box or drop a Pavise shield to do so for the unseen attacker? when the wizard returns).
Third Round: Action 4 Arrows (Crit say on the last one) and I use Fury of the small for an extra 20 damage and the 1d6 die from Martial Adept for Precision Strike. I use one time for a +10.
REMEMBER: The AA has Precision Strike that adds 1d6 to one attack to hit and he has Lucky for 3 rerolls for any possible misses.
Damage: Total arrows 20 with hex, two with banishing arrow, one with Precision Strike, three with sharpshooter and one with fury of the small. Arrows are (1d8 (4.5) + 5 (Dex) + 1d6 (Hex: 3.5 - 1.75))x 19 = 213.75. The Crit is (2d8 + 5 (Dex) + 2d6 (Hex: 7 - 3.5)) x 1 = 13. Banishing arrow extra damage is 2d6 and there is two of them for 4d6 (14). Precision Strike is an additional 1d6 to hit and attack so that’s a 1d6 (3.5) damage. Fury of the small is 20 more damage. The total (Without Sharpshooter) is 264.25 so all is needed is one sharpshooter shot to get over the amount needed to win as Dread’s Hp is 269.
So it is possible for the Fighter to win the battle against your build but he needs just a little teeny bit of luck for some of the rolls.
Also guys you can’t use both wall of force and sickening of radiance as both require concentration you can use Forcecage though but it uses a much bigger spell slot.
So it is possible for the Fighter to win the battle against your build but he needs just a little teeny bit of luck for some of the rolls.
That is quite generous.
You're calculations are based on all 20 attacks hitting and both Banishing Arrow saves being failed.
At +13 versus 24 AC, your goblin needs to roll an 11 or higher to hit. That's exactly 50% hit chance.
In a regular scenario that actually factors in hit chance, halve that amount (lucky and precision attack move the dial a little, but not enough to make a significant impact). The odds of your goblin (or any AA) pulling off the above is so freakin low I don't think it deserves to be considered as a real possibility, let alone labeled as a "teeny bit of luck"
Edit: Just saw your concentration question. The wiz casts simulacrum, both of whom can concentrate on a spell.
Edit Edit: ALSO, your goblin cannot wield a longbow as a small dude. Put a shortbow in their hands and you have to subtract 21 damage from the calculation. So they don't kill Dread. Needing to auto hit Sharpshooter shots is a step too far when it comes to throwing the fighter some scraps to see if they can win. Using sharpshooter actively lowers their DPR at this AC without a source of advantage, so the odds of that working out are even smaller, which is impressively bad odds. You could probably live multiple lifetimes running this simulation every day and still never see it happen.
Also guys you can’t use both wall of force and sickening of radiance as both require concentration you can use Forcecage though but it uses a much bigger spell slot.
You can with 2 casters.... That's the whole reason for the simulacrum.
So it is possible for the Fighter to win the battle against your build but he needs just a little teeny bit of luck for some of the rolls.
That is quite generous.
You're calculations are based on all 20 attacks hitting and both Banishing Arrow saves being failed.
At +13 versus 24 AC, your goblin needs to roll an 11 or higher to hit. That's exactly 50% hit chance.
In a regular scenario that actually factors in hit chance, halve that amount. The odds of your goblin (or any AA) pulling off the above is so freakin low I don't think it deserves to be considered as a real possibility, let alone labeled as a "teeny bit of luck"
Its like a flip of a coin but you get the edge (pun intended). You forget lucky with 3 rerolls on a failed attack and if you missed a certain amount of attacks you can just start sharpshooting to get the lost damage back since if you don’t you won’t win. And yes a “teeny bit of luck” may be an understatement but I’d rather win on a flip of the coin to see who wins than just give you the coin and surrender. And yes assuming all attacks hit is a bit off but still it means the fighter has a fighting chance.
Also guys you can’t use both wall of force and sickening of radiance as both require concentration you can use Forcecage though but it uses a much bigger spell slot.
You can with 2 casters.... That's the whole reason for the simulacrum.
But you’d waste a turn if you are just going to do that at the start of the battle unless you go for prep but to me it sounds like you just start the battle wish and summon your simulacrum.
HeironymusZot I also forgot to add the “strat” with hiding behind something to gain unseen attacker on the first attacks for the second and third round.
Dread casts Maze before Wish, which is incredibly hard for the Fighter to get out of. If they do manage it, it took their action, and their DPR will be significantly lower that round. The nova builds don't produce enough damage to kill Dread within this timeframe.
In the case of the AA, even if they do escape the Maze, then they are out of action surges after their flurry of action in rounds 1-3 and have to pass the turn. Or, because the AA is out of banishing shots and can no longer challenge the concentration on Invulnerability, Dread just skips the simulacrum stuff and beats it that way.
Dread casts Maze before Wish, which is incredibly hard for the Fighter to get out of. If they do manage it, it took their action, and their DPR will be significantly lower that round. The nova builds don't produce enough damage to kill Dread within this timeframe.
In the case of the AA, even if they do escape the Maze, then they are out of action surges after their flurry of action in rounds 1-3 and have to pass the turn. Or, because the AA is out of banishing shots and can no longer challenge the concentration on Invulnerability, Dread just skips the simulacrum stuff and beats it that way.
Umm where you getting that initiative from bud? How can you go first if Dread’s initiative is +2. While the AA is almost a triple your initiative at +5 so how you going to cast maze again?
So it is possible for the Fighter to win the battle against your build but he needs just a little teeny bit of luck for some of the rolls.
That is quite generous.
You're calculations are based on all 20 attacks hitting and both Banishing Arrow saves being failed.
At +13 versus 24 AC, your goblin needs to roll an 11 or higher to hit. That's exactly 50% hit chance.
In a regular scenario that actually factors in hit chance, halve that amount. The odds of your goblin (or any AA) pulling off the above is so freakin low I don't think it deserves to be considered as a real possibility, let alone labeled as a "teeny bit of luck"
Its like a flip of a coin but you get the edge (pun intended). You forget lucky with 3 rerolls on a failed attack and if you missed a certain amount of attacks you can just start sharpshooting to get the lost damage back since if you don’t you won’t win. And yes a “teeny bit of luck” may be an understatement but I’d rather win on a flip of the coin to see who wins than just give you the coin and surrender. And yes assuming all attacks hit is a bit off but still it means the fighter has a fighting chance.
Dread casts Maze before Wish, which is incredibly hard for the Fighter to get out of. If they do manage it, it took their action, and their DPR will be significantly lower that round. The nova builds don't produce enough damage to kill Dread within this timeframe.
In the case of the AA, even if they do escape the Maze, then they are out of action surges after their flurry of action in rounds 1-3 and have to pass the turn. Or, because the AA is out of banishing shots and can no longer challenge the concentration on Invulnerability, Dread just skips the simulacrum stuff and beats it that way.
Umm where you getting that initiative from bud? How can you go first if Dread’s initiative is +2. While the AA is almost a triple your initiative at +5 so how you going to cast maze again?
Dread's whole purpose is that he intentionally fails initiative and then tanks 50 shots straight to the head before laughing at the pitiful fighter.
Also in order to beat dread you need to roll several crits and hit all your attacks with at least average damage using a min-maxed Arcane Archer. Meanwhile Dread doesn't have to roll a thing. That's rough. In other words, most fights Dread is going to win.
Edit for emphasis.
Oh- and yeah as stated earlier the min-maxed Arcane Archer has a 50% chance of even hitting dread, plus needing those several crits. And if Dread makes a single saving throw the Arcane Archer might as well do 0 damage.
Also the strategy of Simulacrum/Wish means you effectively double your spell slots.....so you have a LOT of chances with Wall of Force/Sickening Radiance.
You would have 5 castings of Wall of Force (3 5th levels, 1 6th level, 1 7th level) from the simulacrum
You would have 8 castings of Sickening Radiance (3 4th level, 3 5th level, 1 6th level, 1 7th level) from you.
Since the Archer has literally no way of getting out of the microwave once they are in it....they would have to survive 5 different encounters of 100 saves in which they only have to fail 6 to die instantly.
Its just....not really good for the fighter even if you consider multiple encounters
Thats just how stupid crazy wizards are at 20th level.
Simulacrums are enormously squishy. Most of them won't stand up to a single hit. A dragonborn could use its breath weapon and that's half the simulacrums gone.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Yeah 5E is not meant for one on one brawls, even more so for player vs player, and even more so when magic is involved.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
They have half the hit points of their creator....if you are using dread its like 110 hp.....
So no not at all really.
Also if you kill the sim you still have a full wizard to deal with that has not taken any hits...so yeah no way a fighter wins even in several encounters.
I did this once. The HP drops off really quickly - you have one at 110HP, 55HP, 27HP, 13HP, 6HP, 3HP, 1HP.
Chilling kinda vibe.
OH So you are talking SEVERAL Sims....then the fighter really has no chance whatsoever as it compounds the situation completely.
If you are giving the wizard more than 1 sim its not even a fair fight....its a wholesale slaughter of the fighter with little to no recourse.
My plan was just 1 wizard / 1 Sim which is enough to kill a fighter with no recourse....as they have no way of getting out of a Wall of Force.
You compound that with several more sims....man its just nutty.
You also don't generally fight the same enemy you already killed while adventuring. And besides, this has been a white room scenario fight, not a "what happens when these two cross paths in a real adventure" fight. If you want to try and instill that sense of realism into the competition then the Fighter is so out of his league it isn't funny.
A 20th level Wizard walks around accompanied by a simulacrum, both of which have Contingency set to something defensive like dimension door or resilient sphere and have the trigger set to when they're hit by an attack. That's just what you do as an epic wizard.
Any plans the fighter thinks they have can be foiled in a moment's notice, and the Wizard doesn't even have to be aware. And let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Fighter pulls off the impossible and manages to kill the Wizard somehow. Well, there's a clone sequestered somewhere safe. The Wizard, in his new body, plots his revenge. So the wizard actually has a way to resurrect himself, while the fighter is getting handwaved in.
Edit: Woah, so many posts happened while I was thinking about what to say.
I tried it in a fight once (wizard is my favourite straight class combo (and honestly I do think it beats fighter any day)).
Then gave each simulacrum a clone.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Yes Dread's simulacrum's are beefy bois. 111 HP + 43 HP Ward with Spell Mastery for Shield to recharge and make their AC not complete crap. HP wise, that's more than your average 16 con non-Abjuration wizard (142 HP). Have fun chewing through that if for some reason you haven't been thrown in the microwave already.
How about this:
Level 20 Fighter (Fighting Style: Archery), Goblin, Knight Background (Retainers). Stats: 20 Dex. Feats: Lucky, Sharpshooter, Martial Adept (Precision Strike), and Magic Initiate (Hex). Arcane Archer. The Arrows have a +13 to hit against your 24 AC (With Shield) so it is in the realm of possibility that the AA can beat your Dread.
So your build (Dread) would have a total of 269 hp using shield.
I assume all attacks hit (With one Crit as 20 Arrows are shot):
First Round: Cast Hex on Wizard (Dis. Str), Action 4 Arrows, Action Surge 4 Arrows, Last Arrow is banishing.
Second Round: Action 4 Arrows, Action Surge 4 Arrows, Hide bonus action (Behind Cover? Perhaps buy a box or drop a Pavise shield to do so for the unseen attacker? when the wizard returns).
Third Round: Action 4 Arrows (Crit say on the last one) and I use Fury of the small for an extra 20 damage and the 1d6 die from Martial Adept for Precision Strike. I use one time for a +10.
REMEMBER: The AA has Precision Strike that adds 1d6 to one attack to hit and he has Lucky for 3 rerolls for any possible misses.
Damage: Total arrows 20 with hex, two with banishing arrow, one with Precision Strike, three with sharpshooter and one with fury of the small. Arrows are (1d8 (4.5) + 5 (Dex) + 1d6 (Hex: 3.5 - 1.75))x 19 = 213.75. The Crit is (2d8 + 5 (Dex) + 2d6 (Hex: 7 - 3.5)) x 1 = 13. Banishing arrow extra damage is 2d6 and there is two of them for 4d6 (14). Precision Strike is an additional 1d6 to hit and attack so that’s a 1d6 (3.5) damage. Fury of the small is 20 more damage. The total (Without Sharpshooter) is 264.25 so all is needed is one sharpshooter shot to get over the amount needed to win as Dread’s Hp is 269.
So it is possible for the Fighter to win the battle against your build but he needs just a little teeny bit of luck for some of the rolls.
Also guys you can’t use both wall of force and sickening of radiance as both require concentration you can use Forcecage though but it uses a much bigger spell slot.
That is quite generous.
You're calculations are based on all 20 attacks hitting and both Banishing Arrow saves being failed.
At +13 versus 24 AC, your goblin needs to roll an 11 or higher to hit. That's exactly 50% hit chance.
In a regular scenario that actually factors in hit chance, halve that amount (lucky and precision attack move the dial a little, but not enough to make a significant impact). The odds of your goblin (or any AA) pulling off the above is so freakin low I don't think it deserves to be considered as a real possibility, let alone labeled as a "teeny bit of luck"
Edit: Just saw your concentration question. The wiz casts simulacrum, both of whom can concentrate on a spell.
Edit Edit: ALSO, your goblin cannot wield a longbow as a small dude. Put a shortbow in their hands and you have to subtract 21 damage from the calculation. So they don't kill Dread. Needing to auto hit Sharpshooter shots is a step too far when it comes to throwing the fighter some scraps to see if they can win. Using sharpshooter actively lowers their DPR at this AC without a source of advantage, so the odds of that working out are even smaller, which is impressively bad odds. You could probably live multiple lifetimes running this simulation every day and still never see it happen.
You can with 2 casters.... That's the whole reason for the simulacrum.
Its like a flip of a coin but you get the edge (pun intended). You forget lucky with 3 rerolls on a failed attack and if you missed a certain amount of attacks you can just start sharpshooting to get the lost damage back since if you don’t you won’t win. And yes a “teeny bit of luck” may be an understatement but I’d rather win on a flip of the coin to see who wins than just give you the coin and surrender. And yes assuming all attacks hit is a bit off but still it means the fighter has a fighting chance.
But you’d waste a turn if you are just going to do that at the start of the battle unless you go for prep but to me it sounds like you just start the battle wish and summon your simulacrum.
HeironymusZot I also forgot to add the “strat” with hiding behind something to gain unseen attacker on the first attacks for the second and third round.
It is so incredibly far from a coin flip.
Dread casts Maze before Wish, which is incredibly hard for the Fighter to get out of. If they do manage it, it took their action, and their DPR will be significantly lower that round. The nova builds don't produce enough damage to kill Dread within this timeframe.
In the case of the AA, even if they do escape the Maze, then they are out of action surges after their flurry of action in rounds 1-3 and have to pass the turn. Or, because the AA is out of banishing shots and can no longer challenge the concentration on Invulnerability, Dread just skips the simulacrum stuff and beats it that way.
Umm where you getting that initiative from bud? How can you go first if Dread’s initiative is +2. While the AA is almost a triple your initiative at +5 so how you going to cast maze again?
I think you might have missed this? ^
Dread's whole purpose is that he intentionally fails initiative and then tanks 50 shots straight to the head before laughing at the pitiful fighter.
Also in order to beat dread you need to roll several crits and hit all your attacks with at least average damage using a min-maxed Arcane Archer. Meanwhile Dread doesn't have to roll a thing. That's rough. In other words, most fights Dread is going to win.
Edit for emphasis.
Oh- and yeah as stated earlier the min-maxed Arcane Archer has a 50% chance of even hitting dread, plus needing those several crits. And if Dread makes a single saving throw the Arcane Archer might as well do 0 damage.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.