If we have to tie one arm behind the wizard's back for the fighter to have a chance, then we are admitting wizard is better.
It's not tying an arm behind their back, it's considering both ends of the spectrum; if you assume the Wizard goes into the fight fully stocked on resources with infinite prep then you're only weighting the fight in their favour instead. The point is that they are two very different classes, and one of the biggest differences between them is that the Wizard is heavily reliant on long rest resources and being able to prepare, while a fighter isn't.
If you don't consider the fighter at their fullest advantage, but do so for the wizard, then the comparison is pointless all that is is choosing an outcome you want and then building the circumstances to get it. The same is true if you did it only the other way around (wizard with no resources), it's why both scenarios, as well as the stages in between, are necessary before anything approaching an answer even begins to be possible.
This is why 40 pages of builds for maybe one-shotting a full strength wizard in the first turn both starting at full strength is only partially useful; that's the baseline for a maxxed out fighter when starting in the wizard's favour, you then need to do the same for the wizard starting in the fighter's favour, then some points in the middle (half long rest resources spent, one time with high level spells remaining, one time without, i.e- already faced a very hard fight). Then we might start to get a sense of how likely a wizard is to win in each circumstance, and therefore get some average value overall.
Thus far we've had page after page of people arguing essentially one, and only one, scenario, and getting pissy when anyone points out that that doesn't give a complete picture.
I'm not assuming "unlimited prep time." It can be no prep time, but both classes have what their class brings to the table. Which means all class abilities and spellcasting. If we are testing the classes, then it probably means no magical items, just regular items. The goal here to is to test the two classes straight up, not items, no prep time.
If we have to tie one arm behind the wizard's back for the fighter to have a chance, then we are admitting wizard is better.
It's not tying an arm behind their back, it's considering both ends of the spectrum; if you assume the Wizard goes into the fight fully stocked on resources with infinite prep then you're only weighting the fight in their favour instead. The point is that they are two very different classes, and one of the biggest differences between them is that the Wizard is heavily reliant on long rest resources and being able to prepare, while a fighter isn't.
If you don't consider the fighter at their fullest advantage, but do so for the wizard, then the comparison is pointless all that is is choosing an outcome you want and then building the circumstances to get it. The same is true if you did it only the other way around (wizard with no resources), it's why both scenarios, as well as the stages in between, are necessary before anything approaching an answer even begins to be possible.
This is why 40 pages of builds for maybe one-shotting a full strength wizard in the first turn both starting at full strength is only partially useful; that's the baseline for a maxxed out fighter when starting in the wizard's favour, you then need to do the same for the wizard starting in the fighter's favour, then some points in the middle (half long rest resources spent, one time with high level spells remaining, one time without, i.e- already faced a very hard fight). Then we might start to get a sense of how likely a wizard is to win in each circumstance, and therefore get some average value overall.
Thus far we've had page after page of people arguing essentially one, and only one, scenario, and getting pissy when anyone points out that that doesn't give a complete picture.
I'm not assuming "unlimited prep time." It can be no prep time, but both classes have what their class brings to the table. Which means all class abilities and spellcasting. If we are testing the classes, then it probably means no magical items, just regular items. The goal here to is to test the two classes straight up, not items, no prep time.
What they mean is that if the wizard uses all their long rest resources, meant to be spread out over multiple encounters, in one fight against a character with few long rest resources, you are not judging them in a useful way. The fighter’s main strength, consistency over many encounters, is completely ignored here. There was already a long argument about this, please don’t start another.
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I still don’t know why this is even being discussed…
The fighter is usually a multiple short encounter warrior.
While the wizard is usually made for a couple long term encounters (assuming no prep, glyphs, wards, wards, summons, morphs etc).
But you are getting rid of ALL long rest resources then claiming that it is more fair? What in the world is that? And your doing not even realizing that you are simultaneously making it impossible for the fighter to win (SSS has no Strength before Death) while hardcore handicapping the wizard by removing practically the entirety of the wizards spells. The wizard can still cast infinite scorching rays while just running away on his turn so he can still win even if you get rid of his entire list of spells because wizard gain access to an at will 1st, and 2nd level spell of their choice. Also why are you getting rid of ALL long rest resources with an excuse of “on a normal day you get X encounters” because on a normal day of encounters a wizard would never just go out adventuring and waste his entire repertoire of spells which could be used to turn him into a literal ancient gold shadow spellcasting wizard dragon or just be used to aid his combat with spells and such.
Anyways I’m just saying that by removing long rest resources makes it literally impossible for the fighter to bypass the wizards 265 hp and 25 AC in a single turn (Shield can be cast infinitely) as such the battle becomes a game of cat and mouse but in this case the mouse will win as the wizard can just run away and spam his 2nd level damage spell infinitely or something like that as there are quite a few other things he can do.
You did. It is not “remove all long rest resources”. It is “remove some long rest resources and find the cutoff point at which the more likely winner changes.”
You are also forgetting that an archery fighter using 4 longbow attacks deals 4d8+20(38) damage at 150 feet range, 600 with disadvantage at 20th level, more than scorching ray’s 6d6(21) at 120 feet range. This does not take into account to hit or AC, which would give the wizard a better comparison. Also, fighters are typically higher in hp, and many fighter subclasses add to the damage. Not a fair comparison, but the wizard doesn’t dominate this one if the fighter is archery-oriented like you suggest.
I am not saying fighter is way better in every scenario. I am saying the scenarios most people have been using are somewhat biased to the wizard.
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You did. It is not “remove all long rest resources”. It is “remove some long rest resources and find the cutoff point at which the more likely winner changes.”
Answer: Lets see what spell level you need to get to where the wizard starts having a hard time to find that cutoff changes. Ill be starting off at a "normal" wizard then slowly removing spell levels.
Rested Wizard: Nothing has changed wizard wins.
Remove 9th Level Spells: No wish true polymorph, etc but still has Maze and such so yeah wizard wins (There are many other spells but this is just going to be a quick thing). Wizard Wins.
Remove 8th Level Spells: No more maze, but now we use Forcecage, and sickening radiance. Wizard Wins.
Remove 7th Level Spells: No more Forcecage, but we still have level 6 spell like Investiture of Stone, and Investiture of Wind, with the other investitures (the others aren't as great for this though) which could arguably enable the wizard to solo with that spell and with the infinite Shield, and Scorching Ray, spells but who knows. Wizard Wins.
Remove 6th Level Spells: Arguably 5th level spells are better than 6th level spells as they have spells like Animate Objects, having 10 flying coins that deal 1d4 + 4 damage and with a +8 to hit. Then you also have Telekinesis that can just remove the fighters weapon and leave him effectively helpless. Then you have the spell one of the greatest Wall of Force that can just immediately cut off the fighter from the wizard allowing the wizard to prep, leave, so he can rest then fight properly since why would the wizard ever want to fight without his full power. Wizard Wins.
Remove 5th Level Spells: Don't think the fighter could fight at least 3 tyrannosaurus rexes via Polymorph that the wizard transforms into. There is also Sickening Radiance, and other spells like Resilient Sphere that can just kill the fighter if you trap him in it or use the sphere for some rest time or something. This is also ignoring the large amount of summoning spells that came with Tasha's Cauldron.
Remove 4th Level Spells: No more multiple T-Rexes but still the wizard has some good bits and bobs even without spell levels 4-9 at his disposal. Spells like Haste, and Fly exist to make sure the wizard can stay out of range so he can rest and perhaps even just kite/snipe the fighter if played right as the wizard along with fly can also cast Rope Trick to let the wizard secret away himself for sometime to take a rest and prepare.
Remove 3th Level Spells: Now we have the absolute bare bones of the wizard though he still has a few tricks one of which is that he still have his choice of an at will 1st, and 2nd level spell which can make powerful combos like Shield and Scorching Ray or Rope Trick. As for the strategy it could quite literally be just to outlast the fighter as the plan would be:
The plan could be cast Rope Trick. Enter the hideaway, peak out cast the cantrip Fire Bolt, and be ready to cast Shield to add +5 to wizards AC and to regen the wizards arcane ward by 2 hp (the wizard can also ritual cast abjuration spells to heal the wizards arcane ward infinitely. Doing this the wizard can just slowly pick away at the fighter who can only ever ready one attack as a reaction to maybe hit the wizard who mind you has 25 AC whenever he is attacked and has a regenerating ward (Remember the fighter has limited arrows). now the fighter has three options:
1) Attempt to pick away at the wizard futilely until he succumbs to the fire.
2) The fighter can leave the wizard alone and not enter his range and just let him stay in his hideaway as to not get hurt by the [Tooltip Not Found]s but in doing so let the wizard be able to take a long rest and destroy the fighter.
OR
3) He sits there and accepts that he is going to lose to a wizard using a cantrip [Tooltip Not Found], at will Shield, and at will Rope Trick with ritual spells to upkeep his ward forever.
You are also forgetting that an archery fighter using 4 longbow attacks deals 4d8+20(38) damage at 150 feet range, 600 with disadvantage at 20th level, more than scorching ray’s 6d6(21) at 120 feet range. This does not take into account to hit or AC, which would give the wizard a better comparison. Also, fighters are typically higher in hp, and many fighter subclasses add to the damage. Not a fair comparison, but the wizard doesn’t dominate this one if the fighter is archery-oriented like you suggest.
Answer: Scorching isn't as good as I thought but the Fire Bolt cantrip is just better so I'm using that instead. As such the cantrip [Tooltip Not Found], at will Shield spell, and at will Rope Trick spell strategy says otherwise to the fighter out shooting the wizard since with just those spells the wizard can easily kill the fighter with quite literally zero long rest resources since all are at will spells. And remember fire bolt deals 4d10 (22) fire damage on hit.
I am not saying fighter is way better in every scenario. I am saying the scenarios most people have been using are somewhat biased to the wizard.
Answer: I think there is no metric the fighter is exclusively better at than the wizard since the wizard just has to much power, utility, abilities, and spells for the fighter to compete with when a wizard can just create prep time even in the middle of combat and the only thing the fighter can out do the wizard in is Nova damage but a well prepare wizard can effectively deal infinite damage with Glyph of Warding, or with Symbol spell. so yeah I guess even the fighters nova can't beat a wizards nova who could rig a demiplane with 1000's of glyphs or symbols and then teleport someone there to trigger them all and insta-kill anything in existence.
Anyway sorry for the long post and do tell if I missed something or messed something up.
PS: Remember I skipped over a boatload of strategies and spells and bits and bobs of what a fully capable wizard can do so just as I have said even the "weakest" of wizards can kill even the strongest of characters. Like the No-spell-slot Wizard which uses shield and rope trick along with firebolt to infinitely snipe the fighter.
Ok, you made some good strategies there. Scorching ray is decent when you get it but becomes useless at high levels.
Another thing, 200+ hp wizards are a bit of an outlier. With 20 con and no other gimmicks to boost hp, that puts us at 182 hp. The arcane ward effectively adds 45. The characters probably shouldn’t be created for the sole purpose of being epic against each other and worse than most others of their class at everything else, and this goes for those nova fighters too. The 265 hp wizard probably gives up a lot in other areas, and so do many of the fighters. Multiple different builds of fighters and wizards should also be tested, like not just abjurers and samurai, but also some other interesting stuff like conjuration and battle master.
Although something that requires the amount of prep time needed to set up the glyphs of annihilation, however good a strategy it is, should be banned. Just because the wizard would need to know months in advance, and never fight something particularly tough that forces them to send it there.
To be honest, the thread kind of died when it started getting useful, with tournaments being proposed.
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Ok, you made some good strategies there. Scorching ray is decent when you get it but becomes useless at high levels.
Another thing, 200+ hp wizards are a bit of an outlier. With 20 con and no other gimmicks to boost hp, that puts us at 182 hp. The arcane ward effectively adds 45. The characters probably shouldn’t be created for the sole purpose of being epic against each other and worse than most others of their class at everything else, and this goes for those nova fighters too. The 265 hp wizard probably gives up a lot in other areas, and so do many of the fighters. Multiple different builds of fighters and wizards should also be tested, like not just abjurers and samurai, but also some other interesting stuff like conjuration and battle master.
Although something that requires the amount of prep time needed to set up the glyphs of annihilation, however good a strategy it is, should be banned. Just because the wizard would need to know months in advance, and never fight something particularly tough that forces them to send it there.
To be honest, the thread kind of died when it started getting useful, with tournaments being proposed.
The HP thing for the wizard just shows thats literally all you have to do to outlast even the most potent damage build fighter who burns all resources in the fight....math shows you all you need to know about average damage and AC and HP totals for the wizard.
Once the wizard gets a turn its over....even without higher level spells they just don't have the kit to deal with them.
Every fighter counter is "well the wizard can't use this of course"....which just shows you how much you would need to strip from the wizard to get an even fight...
Ok, you made some good strategies there. Scorching ray is decent when you get it but becomes useless at high levels.
Answer: Yeah I realized that when I was writing my post that 6d6 (21) vs 4d10 (22) was actually weaker when compare to a literal cantrip...
Another thing, 200+ hp wizards are a bit of an outlier. With 20 con and no other gimmicks to boost hp, that puts us at 182 hp. The arcane ward effectively adds 45. The characters probably shouldn’t be created for the sole purpose of being epic against each other and worse than most others of their class at everything else, and this goes for those nova fighters too. The 265 hp wizard probably gives up a lot in other areas, and so do many of the fighters. Multiple different builds of fighters and wizards should also be tested, like not just abjurers and samurai, but also some other interesting stuff like conjuration and battle master.
Answer: Well while you ain't gonna meet a 265 hp 25 AC wizard on your weekend walk neither are you going to ever meet a Suicidal Seppuku Sniper Samurai which deals 450+ damage and can one shot an adult red dragon and kill an ancient red dragon in a couple of turns.
The thing is we have tried other builds its just that the wizard due to there spells merely have one win condition... and that is "have a turn to cast X spell then win" and the builds to achieve that condition are the initiative build (Rabbitfolk Chronurgist: has a min. 21, aver. 38, and max 45 initiative roll and if allowed can use Covergent Future to auto win the initiative roll), tank build (Hobgoblin Abjuration: 265hp, 25 AC), and the Reactionary Wizard (Warcaster + Polearm Master: Cast an action spell when fight enters 10m reach can be combined with the other builds). Those are the main wizard builds right now (excluding the diviner since it's just a worse Chronurgist for this scenario).
While the fighter has like one viable build being the Seppuku Sniper Samurai (Deals 458+ damage against the wizard, although due to AC that damage is severely reduced to a point where the tank wizard still has 54 hp left), Eldritch Knight "stun-lock" build (Hold Person as the way to win but against abjuration it is almost impossible to get the hold person off and keep the wizard held for long enough to kill them as they are built like a truck against spells however it is second most viable fighter build), and lastly is the Aasimer Arcane Archer build (Double banishment arrow, with aasimer level damage each turn, but highly unreliable {I should know since I made the build}, and against the abjuration it is almost impossible to achieve while entirely impossible against the Chronurgist due to convergent future to guarantee success against the arrow).
Those are the fight builds and you may have noticed a theme... all of them I made but that not the theme the theme is none of them are reliable and the closest to being reliable is the SSS but it still doesn't have the damage an average to kill the tank wizard which is the most viable wizard build (ignoring the wizard initiative build). And yes the SSS can have some micro improvements to increase the damage and such but beyond that it isn't ever gonna (in my opinion) get past the 50% win rate needed let alone a 40% or arguably the 30% win rate benchmarks the SSS build needs to overcome to be considered the winner.
As for the why not "conjuration or battlemaster" well the reason is simple the conjuration is meh in this battle since it doesnt directly help the wizard in this matchup as for the battle master in all honesty the battlemaster is just weak when compared to the SSS build and while the battlemaster does have some interesting maneuvers it doesn't help that non battlemaster fighters have access to maneuvers via feats and such which makes the BM less appealing.
Although something that requires the amount of prep time needed to set up the glyphs of annihilation, however good a strategy it is, should be banned. Just because the wizard would need to know months in advance, and never fight something particularly tough that forces them to send it there.
Answer: I'm not talking about using the Glyph of Warding or symbol in the whiteroom right off the bat (though the wizard after say doing Rope Trick or whatever could technically set up the bomb room in some personal demiplane somewhere then either teleport the fighter to the demiplane with Plane Shift, or open the demiplane by casting Demiplane, and there is always the answer of just casting Gate, directly on the fighter/near the fighter and let the explosions' Aoe to insta-kill the fighter and that's just one strategy.
As for you saying that this strategy should be banned I don't think it should and as for your reasons why he wouldn't use it I see no reason why the wizard would not do, could not do it, or should not do it since what level 20 wizard wouldn't want an end all be all ace in the hole ability he could use to kill a pesky target.
To be honest, the thread kind of died when it started getting useful, with tournaments being proposed.
Answer: Eh perhaps but it still has somethings that could be discussed and as I said a long while back i feel that the EK build might need some good ol love like the SSS build got from me since (as I see it) the main/only build maker in this thread some of these builds can be improved the SSS and EK being the ones with the most room to grow as honestly the AAA build I don't think can get any stronger than I got it to be.
As for this thread being useful I think it was incredibly useful as when I started this thread I thought the wizard would absolutely stomp the fighter but instead I went from thinking the fighter damage maxed out at like 200 to maxing at around 500 damage if completely optimized.
Anyways this was another long post ;) do tell if I missed something or messed up.
The HP thing for the wizard just shows thats literally all you have to do to outlast even the most potent damage build fighter who burns all resources in the fight....math shows you all you need to know about average damage and AC and HP totals for the wizard.
Answer: Well you need to know the max damage of the fighter, the to hit of the fighter, and the AC/Hp of the wizard but yeah I know what you mean.
Once the wizard gets a turn its over....even without higher level spells they just don't have the kit to deal with them.
Answer: Absolutely and I hope that was shown well just by the mere fact that a wizard with NO SPELL SLOTS at all could effectively, reasonably, and relatively easily overpower a fighter with just a cantrip and the at will spells given by Spell Mastery and I think that speaks volumes to the capabilities of the wizard.
Every fighter counter is "well the wizard can't use this of course"....which just shows you how much you would need to strip from the wizard to get an even fight...
Answer: Well yes and no, yes in that there was that strategy where grappling could be used to hinder spellcasting and such, or the fighter would try to take the wizards material or arcane focus. But no in that the SSS doesn't try to hinder the wizard the SSS merely tries to "Blitz and oneshot" the wizard by winning initiative and dealing so much damage as to knock the wizard unconscious but then again even the SSS right now can't deal enough damage to kill he wizard anyway so it doesn't matter that much.
But yeah when people talk about "making things fair" all they talk about is essentially just "if you hinder the wizard, and play to the fighters favor, the wizard loses" it speaks volumes to the wizard side in that the wizard has to be weakened for the fighter to stand a chance.
Yeah eldritch knights are basically fighters that are also mini wizards, making them good at this thing. They can also beat rope trick by casting jump on themselves to pop up in the space.
The thing about the sniper vs the 265 hp wizard is that we should probably test with more typical (casually saying a level 20 can be “typical”) builds for both, not builds specifically designed for killing fighters/wizards with no thought into performing well against everything else. That is the reason I brought up other subclasses that are less than optimal for maximized builds but have somewhat interesting things going on. Each to their own I guess.
Yeah eldritch knights are basically fighters that are also mini wizards, making them good at this thing. They can also beat rope trick by casting fly on themselves to pop up in the space.
Answer: Well in the Rope Trick scenario all long rest resources are used so... the EK wouldn't have spells either so no Fly spell. In addition Rope Trick has a stipulation that attacks and spells can't cross through the doorway (doorway can also be made invisible) so even if that was the case the EK would have a hard time getting in without Dispel Magic but if your giving EK 3rd level spells I don't see why the wizard wouldn't get 3rd level spells (even though realistically if EK had access to 3rd level spell slots the equivalent would be the wizard having 5th level spell slots).
The thing about the sniper vs the 265 hp wizard is that we should probably test with more typical (casually saying a level 20 can be “typical”) builds for both, not builds specifically designed for killing fighters/wizards with no thought into performing well against everything else. That is the reason I brought up other subclasses that are less than optimal for maximized builds but have somewhat interesting things going on. Each to their own I guess.
Answer: Well if you want more "normal" builds at that point why not compare the Archmage vs a Champion and see who won as they are the in-verse comparisons you seem to want. As there is no baseline for normality for a player character. They are all different with different... well different everything.
As for the normalized builds at for how I see it all you could base it off would be like Champion Fighter and Evocation Wizard (Players Handbook main subclasses) but other than that how would you normalize stats? normalize spells? There are just to many choices and variables available to set a supposed baseline as it would be mostly if not entirely arbitrary and/or subjective. But that's just my take on it do you think its possible to find a supposed "normal" that is actually objective and not subject to opinion?
True. You made many good points there. But poison spray still actually gives eldritch knights a way to fight rope trick. (the wizard would only make it 15 feet to avoid taking damage from the fighter, and poison spray is on a save and ignores shield) To be honest, I am simply impressed that you thought of rope trick as a combat spell. It is the last thing I would think of using in combat. that alone is worthy of respect.
Also edited it to jump, a first-level spell, while you were presumably typing that out because I realized. The wizard never lost their l1 spells, so maybe the eldritch knight has a few.
If both sides are fully rested, an EK with hold person stands a decent chance at taking out the wizard by playing the same game. Hold person+the resilient feat for wis save proficiency+20 int and dex allows the eldritch knight a decent chance to incapacitate the wizard and start using action surge for 8 weapon attacks that auto crit at melee range.
This is not a guaranteed win for fighter, and has no way to fight “I wish fighter was dead” besides dm intervention or precast true polymorph. True polymorph I will not attempt to fight because that one is unfightable.
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True. You made many good points there. But poison spray still actually gives eldritch knights a way to fight rope trick. (the wizard would only make it 15 feet to avoid taking damage from the fighter, and poison spray is on a save and ignores shield) To be honest, I am simply impressed that you thought of rope trick as a combat spell. It is the last thing I would think of using in combat. that alone is worthy of respect.
Also edited it to jump, a first-level spell, while you were presumably typing that out because I realized. The wizard never lost their l1 spells, so maybe the eldritch knight has a few.
If both sides are fully rested, an EK with hold person stands a decent chance at taking out the wizard by playing the same game. Hold person+the resilient feat for wis save proficiency+20 int and dex allows the eldritch knight a decent chance to incapacitate the wizard and start using action surge for 8 weapon attacks that auto crit at melee range.
This is not a guaranteed win for fighter, and has no way to fight “I wish fighter was dead” besides dm intervention or precast true polymorph. True polymorph I will not attempt to fight because that one is unfightable.
The fact you give the fighter leveled spells but not the wizard and it's still not a sure thing for the fighter is pretty telling in itself.
Overall even with a spell like Polymorph the fighter has little chance... And EK is only a decent option because you can get Misty Step which allows you to get out of Force cage/ Wall of Force.
The situation where the fighter gets leveled spells is a single level 1 spell on what you read, which the other guy did not rule out. The other one is where the wizard also has spells, which turns it to initiative contest plus “can the fighter’s counterspell stop a high leveled wizard spell?” and sometimes that is is a yes, opening up action surge for and hold person followed by weapon attacks or vice versa without being inconvenienced by shield if the wizard counterspelled, or without being inconvenienced by counterspell if the wizard used shield. You only need two hands to hold a longbow when attacking. This actually requires strategy from both sides to win. It is not a 100% fighter win, but it is a decent chance.
And eldritch knight adds a small bit of wizard to the fighter, like hold person and counterspell. Hold person can incapacitate the wizard and allow the fighter to auto-crit from melee range unless counterspelled. And counterspell at level 3 has a 1/3 chance to stop wish or true polymorph. Wizard spells at level 4 can do decent incapacitation effects and attempts to stop the wizard’s spells. This results in being able to do the wizard’s thing but far worse than actual wizards and still be a fighter.
The way to beat the wizard with a fighter is to make the fighter have both goodies like action surge and indomitable from fighter and goodies like hold person, counterspell, and dispel magic from wizard. Why one or the other when you can combine a bit of both?
To be honest, this makes me want to see a 2v2 with these characters.
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Wizard wins initiative and casts Invulnerability, the fight is pretty much over. 10 minutes with complete immunity to damage is pretty tough for the fighter to get around. At that point, you can Firebolt the fighter to death! Unless you can get the wizard to drop concentration, the fight is over. There are ways to get the wizard to make a concentration check, outside of damage, but seems like a long shot.
Another thing is...does the wizard have material components? I mean, a lot of higher level spells have expensive material components that are consumed by the spell. If the wizard doesn't have components, then this is a tougher fight for the wizard. So there are a lot of moving parts in all of this. If we assume the wizard has spell components, beyond just a focus or spell pouch, then the fighter has little chance of winning. Without gp cost spell components, it gets tougher.
But then what items does the fighter have also? What a level 20 fighter might reasonably have or just starting equipment? Lots of moving parts in all of this and unknowns. I think the wizard has just a whole bunch of ways to win, the path for the fighter is very narrow.
That does change things. Some of the wizard strategies used pricey consumable material components (like the glyph of assassination strat or invulnerability), and most people did not give the fighter magic items, although full plate is typically assumed to be available. Though if wish is available, the wizard can wish up a spell without needing a pricey component.
The invulnerability is only really counterable if an eldritch knight uses dispel magic. People need to give them more respect in this matchup.
The magic item thing needs balancing too. No artifacts and few to no legendary items, but otherwise no idea how this should be done.
Magic items an 1000s of gold pieces consumable components should ether both be allowed or both heavily restricted. Considering their levels, probably allowed.
True. You made many good points there. But poison spray still actually gives eldritch knights a way to fight rope trick. (the wizard would only make it 15 feet to avoid taking damage from the fighter, and poison spray is on a save and ignores shield) To be honest, I am simply impressed that you thought of rope trick as a combat spell. It is the last thing I would think of using in combat. that alone is worthy of respect.
Answer: Thanks and that strategy was made by just browsing the wizards spell list. As for the 15ft range Poison Spray yeah the spell exists but you do realize that the Tank build is an abjurer right? He has advantage against the spell and it deals half damage and the wizard has the highest constitution score... so Poison Spray is literally useless against the wizard...
Also edited it to jump, a first-level spell, while you were presumably typing that out because I realized. The wizard never lost their l1 spells, so maybe the eldritch knight has a few.
Answer: Well the reason why I didn't remove the 1st or 2nd level spell slots was that they didn't matter to much as I could easily rely on the at will spells granted by Spell Mastery as such I didn't have to use low level spell slots and instead removed all spell slots/long rest resources and relied on at will spells.
Also if I wanted I could just swap out a feat for [feat]Athlete[/feat] and make the wizard climb 30 feet of rope to Rope Trick's entrance also remember as the EK you would still need a 14 strength score as a running high jump is 3 + your strength score while a standing high jump is half of that (Jumping also costs movement). Though this technically could be ignored by making the EK an Aarakocra but in doing that you mess up a bunch of other stuff the EK wants for his build and the EK in the end wouldn't end out on top at the end of it at least as I see it right now.
If both sides are fully rested, an EK with hold person stands a decent chance at taking out the wizard by playing the same game. Hold person+the resilient feat for wis save proficiency+20 int and dex allows the eldritch knight a decent chance to incapacitate the wizard and start using action surge for 8 weapon attacks that auto crit at melee range.
This is not a guaranteed win for fighter, and has no way to fight “I wish fighter was dead” besides dm intervention or precast true polymorph. True polymorph I will not attempt to fight because that one is unfightable.
The fact you give the fighter leveled spells but not the wizard and it's still not a sure thing for the fighter is pretty telling in itself.
Overall even with a spell like Polymorph the fighter has little chance... And EK is only a decent option because you can get Misty Step which allows you to get out of Force cage/ Wall of Force.
Otherwise it's a very bad option IMO
Answer: EK's hold person vs the Tank wizard isn't as great as you seem to think it is as the Tank wizard has advantage against all spells and the wizard isn't going to let the EK cast Hold Person on the wizard until it sticks and he can attack the wizard. Also again you assume the EK gets his spells while ignoring the wizards spells.
I agree that the EK while good has a better chance than most a 1% chance is still 1% as such I agree that it is not that good of an option especially when the wizards even 4th level spells are already troublesome to downright infuriating for the fighter as he would have to burst down at least 3 Tyrannosaurus Rex or other equivalent beast form granted by Polymorph.
The situation where the fighter gets leveled spells is a single level 1 spell on what you read, which the other guy did not rule out. The other one is where the wizard also has spells, which turns it to initiative contest plus “can the fighter’s counterspell stop a high leveled wizard spell?” and sometimes that is is a yes, opening up action surge for and hold person followed by weapon attacks or vice versa without being inconvenienced by shield if the wizard counterspelled, or without being inconvenienced by counterspell if the wizard used shield. You only need two hands to hold a longbow when attacking. This actually requires strategy from both sides to win. It is not a 100% fighter win, but it is a decent chance.
Answer: This paragraph was bit hard to follow for me at least but sounds like you are saying the EK has a decent chance of killing the wizard with the Hold Person and a longbow. To which I say no not really as in all honesty the wizard tank build is still capable of switching some feats and such so if the wizard just makes the resilience give proficiency against Hold Person then the wizard has an almost guaranteed win with the advantage granted by the abjurations subclass features as such Hold Person isn't that threatening.
And eldritch knight adds a small bit of wizard to the fighter, like hold person and counterspell. Hold person can incapacitate the wizard and allow the fighter to auto-crit from melee range unless counterspelled. And counterspell at level 3 has a 1/3 chance to stop wish or true polymorph. Wizard spells at level 4 can do decent incapacitation effects and attempts to stop the wizard’s spells. This results in being able to do the wizard’s thing but far worse than actual wizards and still be a fighter.
Answer: Wizard still has advantage and potentially lucky against Hold Person and perhaps even the resilience feat so I don't see the EK's Hold Person strategy to be the best against the tank wizard. also the wizard can technically just auto counter most of the EK's spells as the wizard has higher spell slots.
The way to beat the wizard with a fighter is to make the fighter have both goodies like action surge and indomitable from fighter and goodies like hold person, counterspell, and dispel magic from wizard. Why one or the other when you can combine a bit of both?
Answer: The reason why you would rather be either pure fighter or pure wizard is that they are just better than a mixed class like the EK since they compromise and as such lose out on the potential of either path becoming a worse wizard and a worse fighter while only gaining a bit of utility which the wizard has in spades.
To be honest, this makes me want to see a 2v2 with these characters.
Answer: An interesting Idea but by having two wizards would make it utterly impossible for the fighters if it already wasn't impossible before as the wizards all they would need to do is have one be the initiative wizard the other be another initiative wizard then just win initiative since they now have an even greater chance to win initiative then cast one spell and it's over.
Wizard wins initiative and casts Invulnerability, the fight is pretty much over. 10 minutes with complete immunity to damage is pretty tough for the fighter to get around. At that point, you can Firebolt the fighter to death! Unless you can get the wizard to drop concentration, the fight is over. There are ways to get the wizard to make a concentration check, outside of damage, but seems like a long shot.
Answer: Invulnerability while it is a good spell as you say there are ways for the fighter to bypass the concentration by making the wizard incapacitated are by influencing certain environmental phenomena but both ways are very hard to do while the latter fully depends on the GM's ruling. Also that spell isn't the greatest either as their are things like Wish and such that can be much more viable at times.
Another thing is...does the wizard have material components? I mean, a lot of higher level spells have expensive material components that are consumed by the spell. If the wizard doesn't have components, then this is a tougher fight for the wizard. So there are a lot of moving parts in all of this. If we assume the wizard has spell components, beyond just a focus or spell pouch, then the fighter has little chance of winning. Without gp cost spell components, it gets tougher.
Answer: Yeah without costly components the wizard is limited in his spell repertoire but Wish exists so even if he didn't have the components for a certain spell he still would have access to it but there are tons of the spells don't care about such costly materials like Polymorph and True Polymorph so yeah while it does limit certain spells it doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things.
But then what items does the fighter have also? What a level 20 fighter might reasonably have or just starting equipment? Lots of moving parts in all of this and unknowns. I think the wizard has just a whole bunch of ways to win, the path for the fighter is very narrow.
Answer: Yeah a lot of moving parts are here like what are allowed and such (I even brought this up at one point too) as if we allow all non magical items to be used that means the fighter could have all his arrows covered in purple worm poison and blah blah blah it gets complicated. But as far as things are concerned right now any armor and weapons (up to gunpowder weapons) are allowed and we were under the assumption that any spell components the wizard would have unless it is like have this targets blood type of thing since that isn't something you could buy.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed up.
Overall the wizard even with 4th level spells isn't really going to struggle much with the fighter. The game isn't designed with PvP in mind so being able to polymorph into a creature that can absorb 90% of the fighters action surge damage output in THP and then you would have to eat through another 200+ HP on top of that....
Spells are just next level when it comes to PvP as they are meant to counter party threats not a single PC.
A wall of force alone shuts down pretty much every fighter sans EK but that's about all the EK has going for it
If you try to cast a spell on the wizard they can counter spell it before they even have to try to make a save...
The ball is completely in the wizards court unless the fighter has a way to stun them.
The only build that has a good shot is the arcane Archer build with the banishment arrows as that shuts the action economy of the wizard to 0.
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I'm not assuming "unlimited prep time." It can be no prep time, but both classes have what their class brings to the table. Which means all class abilities and spellcasting. If we are testing the classes, then it probably means no magical items, just regular items. The goal here to is to test the two classes straight up, not items, no prep time.
What they mean is that if the wizard uses all their long rest resources, meant to be spread out over multiple encounters, in one fight against a character with few long rest resources, you are not judging them in a useful way. The fighter’s main strength, consistency over many encounters, is completely ignored here. There was already a long argument about this, please don’t start another.
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I still don’t know why this is even being discussed…
The fighter is usually a multiple short encounter warrior.
While the wizard is usually made for a couple long term encounters (assuming no prep, glyphs, wards, wards, summons, morphs etc).
But you are getting rid of ALL long rest resources then claiming that it is more fair? What in the world is that? And your doing not even realizing that you are simultaneously making it impossible for the fighter to win (SSS has no Strength before Death) while hardcore handicapping the wizard by removing practically the entirety of the wizards spells.
The wizard can still cast infinite scorching rays while just running away on his turn so he can still win even if you get rid of his entire list of spells because wizard gain access to an at will 1st, and 2nd level spell of their choice.
Also why are you getting rid of ALL long rest resources with an excuse of “on a normal day you get X encounters” because on a normal day of encounters a wizard would never just go out adventuring and waste his entire repertoire of spells which could be used to turn him into a literal ancient gold shadow spellcasting wizard dragon or just be used to aid his combat with spells and such.
Anyways I’m just saying that by removing long rest resources makes it literally impossible for the fighter to bypass the wizards 265 hp and 25 AC in a single turn (Shield can be cast infinitely) as such the battle becomes a game of cat and mouse but in this case the mouse will win as the wizard can just run away and spam his 2nd level damage spell infinitely or something like that as there are quite a few other things he can do.
Do tell if I messed up or missed something.
You did. It is not “remove all long rest resources”. It is “remove some long rest resources and find the cutoff point at which the more likely winner changes.”
You are also forgetting that an archery fighter using 4 longbow attacks deals 4d8+20(38) damage at 150 feet range, 600 with disadvantage at 20th level, more than scorching ray’s 6d6(21) at 120 feet range. This does not take into account to hit or AC, which would give the wizard a better comparison. Also, fighters are typically higher in hp, and many fighter subclasses add to the damage. Not a fair comparison, but the wizard doesn’t dominate this one if the fighter is archery-oriented like you suggest.
I am not saying fighter is way better in every scenario. I am saying the scenarios most people have been using are somewhat biased to the wizard.
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Answer: Lets see what spell level you need to get to where the wizard starts having a hard time to find that cutoff changes. Ill be starting off at a "normal" wizard then slowly removing spell levels.
Rested Wizard: Nothing has changed wizard wins.
Remove 9th Level Spells: No wish true polymorph, etc but still has Maze and such so yeah wizard wins (There are many other spells but this is just going to be a quick thing). Wizard Wins.
Remove 8th Level Spells: No more maze, but now we use Forcecage, and sickening radiance. Wizard Wins.
Remove 7th Level Spells: No more Forcecage, but we still have level 6 spell like Investiture of Stone, and Investiture of Wind, with the other investitures (the others aren't as great for this though) which could arguably enable the wizard to solo with that spell and with the infinite Shield, and Scorching Ray, spells but who knows. Wizard Wins.
Remove 6th Level Spells: Arguably 5th level spells are better than 6th level spells as they have spells like Animate Objects, having 10 flying coins that deal 1d4 + 4 damage and with a +8 to hit. Then you also have Telekinesis that can just remove the fighters weapon and leave him effectively helpless. Then you have the spell one of the greatest Wall of Force that can just immediately cut off the fighter from the wizard allowing the wizard to prep, leave, so he can rest then fight properly since why would the wizard ever want to fight without his full power. Wizard Wins.
Remove 5th Level Spells: Don't think the fighter could fight at least 3 tyrannosaurus rexes via Polymorph that the wizard transforms into. There is also Sickening Radiance, and other spells like Resilient Sphere that can just kill the fighter if you trap him in it or use the sphere for some rest time or something. This is also ignoring the large amount of summoning spells that came with Tasha's Cauldron.
Remove 4th Level Spells: No more multiple T-Rexes but still the wizard has some good bits and bobs even without spell levels 4-9 at his disposal. Spells like Haste, and Fly exist to make sure the wizard can stay out of range so he can rest and perhaps even just kite/snipe the fighter if played right as the wizard along with fly can also cast Rope Trick to let the wizard secret away himself for sometime to take a rest and prepare.
Remove 3th Level Spells: Now we have the absolute bare bones of the wizard though he still has a few tricks one of which is that he still have his choice of an at will 1st, and 2nd level spell which can make powerful combos like Shield and Scorching Ray or Rope Trick. As for the strategy it could quite literally be just to outlast the fighter as the plan would be:
The plan could be cast Rope Trick. Enter the hideaway, peak out cast the cantrip Fire Bolt, and be ready to cast Shield to add +5 to wizards AC and to regen the wizards arcane ward by 2 hp (the wizard can also ritual cast abjuration spells to heal the wizards arcane ward infinitely. Doing this the wizard can just slowly pick away at the fighter who can only ever ready one attack as a reaction to maybe hit the wizard who mind you has 25 AC whenever he is attacked and has a regenerating ward (Remember the fighter has limited arrows). now the fighter has three options:
1) Attempt to pick away at the wizard futilely until he succumbs to the fire.
2) The fighter can leave the wizard alone and not enter his range and just let him stay in his hideaway as to not get hurt by the [Tooltip Not Found]s but in doing so let the wizard be able to take a long rest and destroy the fighter.
OR
3) He sits there and accepts that he is going to lose to a wizard using a cantrip [Tooltip Not Found], at will Shield, and at will Rope Trick with ritual spells to upkeep his ward forever.
Answer: Scorching isn't as good as I thought but the Fire Bolt cantrip is just better so I'm using that instead. As such the cantrip [Tooltip Not Found], at will Shield spell, and at will Rope Trick spell strategy says otherwise to the fighter out shooting the wizard since with just those spells the wizard can easily kill the fighter with quite literally zero long rest resources since all are at will spells. And remember fire bolt deals 4d10 (22) fire damage on hit.
Answer: I think there is no metric the fighter is exclusively better at than the wizard since the wizard just has to much power, utility, abilities, and spells for the fighter to compete with when a wizard can just create prep time even in the middle of combat and the only thing the fighter can out do the wizard in is Nova damage but a well prepare wizard can effectively deal infinite damage with Glyph of Warding, or with Symbol spell. so yeah I guess even the fighters nova can't beat a wizards nova who could rig a demiplane with 1000's of glyphs or symbols and then teleport someone there to trigger them all and insta-kill anything in existence.
Anyway sorry for the long post and do tell if I missed something or messed something up.
PS: Remember I skipped over a boatload of strategies and spells and bits and bobs of what a fully capable wizard can do so just as I have said even the "weakest" of wizards can kill even the strongest of characters. Like the No-spell-slot Wizard which uses shield and rope trick along with firebolt to infinitely snipe the fighter.
Ok, you made some good strategies there. Scorching ray is decent when you get it but becomes useless at high levels.
Another thing, 200+ hp wizards are a bit of an outlier. With 20 con and no other gimmicks to boost hp, that puts us at 182 hp. The arcane ward effectively adds 45. The characters probably shouldn’t be created for the sole purpose of being epic against each other and worse than most others of their class at everything else, and this goes for those nova fighters too. The 265 hp wizard probably gives up a lot in other areas, and so do many of the fighters. Multiple different builds of fighters and wizards should also be tested, like not just abjurers and samurai, but also some other interesting stuff like conjuration and battle master.
Although something that requires the amount of prep time needed to set up the glyphs of annihilation, however good a strategy it is, should be banned. Just because the wizard would need to know months in advance, and never fight something particularly tough that forces them to send it there.
To be honest, the thread kind of died when it started getting useful, with tournaments being proposed.
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The HP thing for the wizard just shows thats literally all you have to do to outlast even the most potent damage build fighter who burns all resources in the fight....math shows you all you need to know about average damage and AC and HP totals for the wizard.
Once the wizard gets a turn its over....even without higher level spells they just don't have the kit to deal with them.
Every fighter counter is "well the wizard can't use this of course"....which just shows you how much you would need to strip from the wizard to get an even fight...
Answer: Yeah I realized that when I was writing my post that 6d6 (21) vs 4d10 (22) was actually weaker when compare to a literal cantrip...
Answer: Well while you ain't gonna meet a 265 hp 25 AC wizard on your weekend walk neither are you going to ever meet a Suicidal Seppuku Sniper Samurai which deals 450+ damage and can one shot an adult red dragon and kill an ancient red dragon in a couple of turns.
The thing is we have tried other builds its just that the wizard due to there spells merely have one win condition... and that is "have a turn to cast X spell then win" and the builds to achieve that condition are the initiative build (Rabbitfolk Chronurgist: has a min. 21, aver. 38, and max 45 initiative roll and if allowed can use Covergent Future to auto win the initiative roll), tank build (Hobgoblin Abjuration: 265hp, 25 AC), and the Reactionary Wizard (Warcaster + Polearm Master: Cast an action spell when fight enters 10m reach can be combined with the other builds). Those are the main wizard builds right now (excluding the diviner since it's just a worse Chronurgist for this scenario).
While the fighter has like one viable build being the Seppuku Sniper Samurai (Deals 458+ damage against the wizard, although due to AC that damage is severely reduced to a point where the tank wizard still has 54 hp left), Eldritch Knight "stun-lock" build (Hold Person as the way to win but against abjuration it is almost impossible to get the hold person off and keep the wizard held for long enough to kill them as they are built like a truck against spells however it is second most viable fighter build), and lastly is the Aasimer Arcane Archer build (Double banishment arrow, with aasimer level damage each turn, but highly unreliable {I should know since I made the build}, and against the abjuration it is almost impossible to achieve while entirely impossible against the Chronurgist due to convergent future to guarantee success against the arrow).
Those are the fight builds and you may have noticed a theme... all of them I made but that not the theme the theme is none of them are reliable and the closest to being reliable is the SSS but it still doesn't have the damage an average to kill the tank wizard which is the most viable wizard build (ignoring the wizard initiative build). And yes the SSS can have some micro improvements to increase the damage and such but beyond that it isn't ever gonna (in my opinion) get past the 50% win rate needed let alone a 40% or arguably the 30% win rate benchmarks the SSS build needs to overcome to be considered the winner.
As for the why not "conjuration or battlemaster" well the reason is simple the conjuration is meh in this battle since it doesnt directly help the wizard in this matchup as for the battle master in all honesty the battlemaster is just weak when compared to the SSS build and while the battlemaster does have some interesting maneuvers it doesn't help that non battlemaster fighters have access to maneuvers via feats and such which makes the BM less appealing.
Answer: I'm not talking about using the Glyph of Warding or symbol in the whiteroom right off the bat (though the wizard after say doing Rope Trick or whatever could technically set up the bomb room in some personal demiplane somewhere then either teleport the fighter to the demiplane with Plane Shift, or open the demiplane by casting Demiplane, and there is always the answer of just casting Gate, directly on the fighter/near the fighter and let the explosions' Aoe to insta-kill the fighter and that's just one strategy.
As for you saying that this strategy should be banned I don't think it should and as for your reasons why he wouldn't use it I see no reason why the wizard would not do, could not do it, or should not do it since what level 20 wizard wouldn't want an end all be all ace in the hole ability he could use to kill a pesky target.
Answer: Eh perhaps but it still has somethings that could be discussed and as I said a long while back i feel that the EK build might need some good ol love like the SSS build got from me since (as I see it) the main/only build maker in this thread some of these builds can be improved the SSS and EK being the ones with the most room to grow as honestly the AAA build I don't think can get any stronger than I got it to be.
As for this thread being useful I think it was incredibly useful as when I started this thread I thought the wizard would absolutely stomp the fighter but instead I went from thinking the fighter damage maxed out at like 200 to maxing at around 500 damage if completely optimized.
Anyways this was another long post ;) do tell if I missed something or messed up.
Answer: Well you need to know the max damage of the fighter, the to hit of the fighter, and the AC/Hp of the wizard but yeah I know what you mean.
Answer: Absolutely and I hope that was shown well just by the mere fact that a wizard with NO SPELL SLOTS at all could effectively, reasonably, and relatively easily overpower a fighter with just a cantrip and the at will spells given by Spell Mastery and I think that speaks volumes to the capabilities of the wizard.
Answer: Well yes and no, yes in that there was that strategy where grappling could be used to hinder spellcasting and such, or the fighter would try to take the wizards material or arcane focus. But no in that the SSS doesn't try to hinder the wizard the SSS merely tries to "Blitz and oneshot" the wizard by winning initiative and dealing so much damage as to knock the wizard unconscious but then again even the SSS right now can't deal enough damage to kill he wizard anyway so it doesn't matter that much.
But yeah when people talk about "making things fair" all they talk about is essentially just "if you hinder the wizard, and play to the fighters favor, the wizard loses" it speaks volumes to the wizard side in that the wizard has to be weakened for the fighter to stand a chance.
Yeah eldritch knights are basically fighters that are also mini wizards, making them good at this thing. They can also beat rope trick by casting jump on themselves to pop up in the space.
The thing about the sniper vs the 265 hp wizard is that we should probably test with more typical (casually saying a level 20 can be “typical”) builds for both, not builds specifically designed for killing fighters/wizards with no thought into performing well against everything else. That is the reason I brought up other subclasses that are less than optimal for maximized builds but have somewhat interesting things going on. Each to their own I guess.
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Answer: Well in the Rope Trick scenario all long rest resources are used so... the EK wouldn't have spells either so no Fly spell. In addition Rope Trick has a stipulation that attacks and spells can't cross through the doorway (doorway can also be made invisible) so even if that was the case the EK would have a hard time getting in without Dispel Magic but if your giving EK 3rd level spells I don't see why the wizard wouldn't get 3rd level spells (even though realistically if EK had access to 3rd level spell slots the equivalent would be the wizard having 5th level spell slots).
Answer: Well if you want more "normal" builds at that point why not compare the Archmage vs a Champion and see who won as they are the in-verse comparisons you seem to want. As there is no baseline for normality for a player character. They are all different with different... well different everything.
As for the normalized builds at for how I see it all you could base it off would be like Champion Fighter and Evocation Wizard (Players Handbook main subclasses) but other than that how would you normalize stats? normalize spells? There are just to many choices and variables available to set a supposed baseline as it would be mostly if not entirely arbitrary and/or subjective. But that's just my take on it do you think its possible to find a supposed "normal" that is actually objective and not subject to opinion?
True. You made many good points there. But poison spray still actually gives eldritch knights a way to fight rope trick. (the wizard would only make it 15 feet to avoid taking damage from the fighter, and poison spray is on a save and ignores shield) To be honest, I am simply impressed that you thought of rope trick as a combat spell. It is the last thing I would think of using in combat. that alone is worthy of respect.
Also edited it to jump, a first-level spell, while you were presumably typing that out because I realized. The wizard never lost their l1 spells, so maybe the eldritch knight has a few.
If both sides are fully rested, an EK with hold person stands a decent chance at taking out the wizard by playing the same game. Hold person+the resilient feat for wis save proficiency+20 int and dex allows the eldritch knight a decent chance to incapacitate the wizard and start using action surge for 8 weapon attacks that auto crit at melee range.
This is not a guaranteed win for fighter, and has no way to fight “I wish fighter was dead” besides dm intervention or precast true polymorph. True polymorph I will not attempt to fight because that one is unfightable.
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The fact you give the fighter leveled spells but not the wizard and it's still not a sure thing for the fighter is pretty telling in itself.
Overall even with a spell like Polymorph the fighter has little chance... And EK is only a decent option because you can get Misty Step which allows you to get out of Force cage/ Wall of Force.
Otherwise it's a very bad option IMO
The situation where the fighter gets leveled spells is a single level 1 spell on what you read, which the other guy did not rule out. The other one is where the wizard also has spells, which turns it to initiative contest plus “can the fighter’s counterspell stop a high leveled wizard spell?” and sometimes that is is a yes, opening up action surge for and hold person followed by weapon attacks or vice versa without being inconvenienced by shield if the wizard counterspelled, or without being inconvenienced by counterspell if the wizard used shield. You only need two hands to hold a longbow when attacking. This actually requires strategy from both sides to win. It is not a 100% fighter win, but it is a decent chance.
And eldritch knight adds a small bit of wizard to the fighter, like hold person and counterspell. Hold person can incapacitate the wizard and allow the fighter to auto-crit from melee range unless counterspelled. And counterspell at level 3 has a 1/3 chance to stop wish or true polymorph. Wizard spells at level 4 can do decent incapacitation effects and attempts to stop the wizard’s spells. This results in being able to do the wizard’s thing but far worse than actual wizards and still be a fighter.
The way to beat the wizard with a fighter is to make the fighter have both goodies like action surge and indomitable from fighter and goodies like hold person, counterspell, and dispel magic from wizard. Why one or the other when you can combine a bit of both?
To be honest, this makes me want to see a 2v2 with these characters.
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Wizard wins initiative and casts Invulnerability, the fight is pretty much over. 10 minutes with complete immunity to damage is pretty tough for the fighter to get around. At that point, you can Firebolt the fighter to death! Unless you can get the wizard to drop concentration, the fight is over. There are ways to get the wizard to make a concentration check, outside of damage, but seems like a long shot.
Another thing is...does the wizard have material components? I mean, a lot of higher level spells have expensive material components that are consumed by the spell. If the wizard doesn't have components, then this is a tougher fight for the wizard. So there are a lot of moving parts in all of this. If we assume the wizard has spell components, beyond just a focus or spell pouch, then the fighter has little chance of winning. Without gp cost spell components, it gets tougher.
But then what items does the fighter have also? What a level 20 fighter might reasonably have or just starting equipment? Lots of moving parts in all of this and unknowns. I think the wizard has just a whole bunch of ways to win, the path for the fighter is very narrow.
That does change things. Some of the wizard strategies used pricey consumable material components (like the glyph of assassination strat or invulnerability), and most people did not give the fighter magic items, although full plate is typically assumed to be available. Though if wish is available, the wizard can wish up a spell without needing a pricey component.
The invulnerability is only really counterable if an eldritch knight uses dispel magic. People need to give them more respect in this matchup.
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The magic item thing needs balancing too. No artifacts and few to no legendary items, but otherwise no idea how this should be done.
Magic items an 1000s of gold pieces consumable components should ether both be allowed or both heavily restricted. Considering their levels, probably allowed.
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Answer: Thanks and that strategy was made by just browsing the wizards spell list. As for the 15ft range Poison Spray yeah the spell exists but you do realize that the Tank build is an abjurer right? He has advantage against the spell and it deals half damage and the wizard has the highest constitution score... so Poison Spray is literally useless against the wizard...
Answer: Well the reason why I didn't remove the 1st or 2nd level spell slots was that they didn't matter to much as I could easily rely on the at will spells granted by Spell Mastery as such I didn't have to use low level spell slots and instead removed all spell slots/long rest resources and relied on at will spells.
Also if I wanted I could just swap out a feat for [feat]Athlete[/feat] and make the wizard climb 30 feet of rope to Rope Trick's entrance also remember as the EK you would still need a 14 strength score as a running high jump is 3 + your strength score while a standing high jump is half of that (Jumping also costs movement). Though this technically could be ignored by making the EK an Aarakocra but in doing that you mess up a bunch of other stuff the EK wants for his build and the EK in the end wouldn't end out on top at the end of it at least as I see it right now.
Answer: EK's hold person vs the Tank wizard isn't as great as you seem to think it is as the Tank wizard has advantage against all spells and the wizard isn't going to let the EK cast Hold Person on the wizard until it sticks and he can attack the wizard. Also again you assume the EK gets his spells while ignoring the wizards spells.
I agree that the EK while good has a better chance than most a 1% chance is still 1% as such I agree that it is not that good of an option especially when the wizards even 4th level spells are already troublesome to downright infuriating for the fighter as he would have to burst down at least 3 Tyrannosaurus Rex or other equivalent beast form granted by Polymorph.
Answer: This paragraph was bit hard to follow for me at least but sounds like you are saying the EK has a decent chance of killing the wizard with the Hold Person and a longbow. To which I say no not really as in all honesty the wizard tank build is still capable of switching some feats and such so if the wizard just makes the resilience give proficiency against Hold Person then the wizard has an almost guaranteed win with the advantage granted by the abjurations subclass features as such Hold Person isn't that threatening.
Answer: Wizard still has advantage and potentially lucky against Hold Person and perhaps even the resilience feat so I don't see the EK's Hold Person strategy to be the best against the tank wizard. also the wizard can technically just auto counter most of the EK's spells as the wizard has higher spell slots.
Answer: The reason why you would rather be either pure fighter or pure wizard is that they are just better than a mixed class like the EK since they compromise and as such lose out on the potential of either path becoming a worse wizard and a worse fighter while only gaining a bit of utility which the wizard has in spades.
Answer: An interesting Idea but by having two wizards would make it utterly impossible for the fighters if it already wasn't impossible before as the wizards all they would need to do is have one be the initiative wizard the other be another initiative wizard then just win initiative since they now have an even greater chance to win initiative then cast one spell and it's over.
Answer: Invulnerability while it is a good spell as you say there are ways for the fighter to bypass the concentration by making the wizard incapacitated are by influencing certain environmental phenomena but both ways are very hard to do while the latter fully depends on the GM's ruling. Also that spell isn't the greatest either as their are things like Wish and such that can be much more viable at times.
Answer: Yeah without costly components the wizard is limited in his spell repertoire but Wish exists so even if he didn't have the components for a certain spell he still would have access to it but there are tons of the spells don't care about such costly materials like Polymorph and True Polymorph so yeah while it does limit certain spells it doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things.
Answer: Yeah a lot of moving parts are here like what are allowed and such (I even brought this up at one point too) as if we allow all non magical items to be used that means the fighter could have all his arrows covered in purple worm poison and blah blah blah it gets complicated. But as far as things are concerned right now any armor and weapons (up to gunpowder weapons) are allowed and we were under the assumption that any spell components the wizard would have unless it is like have this targets blood type of thing since that isn't something you could buy.
Anyways do tell if I missed something or messed up.
Overall the wizard even with 4th level spells isn't really going to struggle much with the fighter. The game isn't designed with PvP in mind so being able to polymorph into a creature that can absorb 90% of the fighters action surge damage output in THP and then you would have to eat through another 200+ HP on top of that....
Spells are just next level when it comes to PvP as they are meant to counter party threats not a single PC.
A wall of force alone shuts down pretty much every fighter sans EK but that's about all the EK has going for it
If you try to cast a spell on the wizard they can counter spell it before they even have to try to make a save...
The ball is completely in the wizards court unless the fighter has a way to stun them.
The only build that has a good shot is the arcane Archer build with the banishment arrows as that shuts the action economy of the wizard to 0.