I think you are overestimating the level 7 feature a lot...its just for scouting and cannot take any actions while doing so.
Where does it say that?
The ability only adds stuff the the Echo, it doesnt take anything from it. Its still your Echo that has all the abilities from Level 3, including the one where you can take the attack action and have it originate from the Echos position, which has no range limit. Which means as long as the Echo is within 1000 feet of you with the level 7 ability, you can attack through it.
I believe the above is incorrect.
Q: Can you use an Echo Avatar to make an attack up to 1000’ away? A: No. By RAI, attacks cannot be made through an Echo Avatar.
Jeremy Crawford tweeted, “The intent is that you can't do anything with the Echo Knight's echo while using Echo Avatar, other than scout with it. The text stating that intent is mysteriously missing from the book. We'll fix it in a future printing! Sorry about the confusion."
They cover a good amount of space I will agree but a sharpshooter fighter is better for that anyway as they can kill something up to 600ft away with hardly a penalty thanks to archery style.
Echo is good don't get me wrong but its not overtly powerful compared to the other fighter options.
I mean, even if we ignore everything else, just the fact that you get unlimited casts of misty step at level 3 is already pretty insane...
Shadow monk gets 60ft of free teleport too for no cost. And casters get Misty step too and I think they will generally have more slots to cast that then the baddies have 5ht level slots to cast wall of force or the like.
Its very good do not get me wrong but its not something insurmountable.
Say you teleport out of a trap and the rest of the party is left behind....now you are by yourself facing down whatever made it. Separating yourself is sometimes the right answer but not always.
I mean, even if we ignore everything else, just the fact that you get unlimited casts of misty step at level 3 is already pretty insane...
Shadow monk gets 60ft of free teleport too for no cost. And casters get Misty step too and I think they will generally have more slots to cast that then the baddies have 5ht level slots to cast wall of force or the like.
Its very good do not get me wrong but its not something insurmountable.
Say you teleport out of a trap and the rest of the party is left behind....now you are by yourself facing down whatever made it. Separating yourself is sometimes the right answer but not always.
Yes, at level 6 and its the only thing they get at this level, its not one of 3 powerfull abilities.
And it comes with conditions, any light source will limit where they can teleport. Shadow Monk is actually a very good comparison, an u7nlimited bonus action Teleport should be a midgame feature and is on itself, even with limitations, a very strong ability.
Archfey Warlock is another example, they get a once per short rest Teleport they can only use after getting attacked, but in exchange they turn invisible. Again, at level 6, and its the only ability they get at this level.
I would have no problem if the free Misty steps were what Echo Knights got at Level 7 and it was the main feature, instead of level 3 where they already got "Summon unlimited bodies to the Battlefield", have a 30+ feet melee attack range", "declare an area at will where you can make AoO without being there" and "Extra Attack up to 5 times a day"
The Echo Knight is just overloaded, and its not even that its Front-Loaded and then the rest is just meh, every Ability they get is top Tier.
I mean, compare it to the Battlemaster, which is a frontloaded class.
They get their main feature right away, but therefore the rest of their abilities are flavour or just slight upgrades to the Main feature.
Compare those two and tell me the Echo Knight isnt leagues better with all the offers.
I mean, even if we ignore everything else, just the fact that you get unlimited casts of misty step at level 3 is already pretty insane...
Shadow monk gets 60ft of free teleport too for no cost. And casters get Misty step too and I think they will generally have more slots to cast that then the baddies have 5ht level slots to cast wall of force or the like.
Its very good do not get me wrong but its not something insurmountable.
Say you teleport out of a trap and the rest of the party is left behind....now you are by yourself facing down whatever made it. Separating yourself is sometimes the right answer but not always.
Yes, at level 6 and its the only thing they get at this level, its not one of 3 powerfull abilities.
And it comes with conditions, any light source will limit where they can teleport. Shadow Monk is actually a very good comparison, an u7nlimited bonus action Teleport should be a midgame feature and is on itself, even with limitations, a very strong ability.
Archfey Warlock is another example, they get a once per short rest Teleport they can only use after getting attacked, but in exchange they turn invisible. Again, at level 6, and its the only ability they get at this level.
I would have no problem if the free Misty steps were what Echo Knights got at Level 7 and it was the main feature, instead of level 3 where they already got "Summon unlimited bodies to the Battlefield", have a 30+ feet melee attack range", "declare an area at will where you can make AoO without being there" and "Extra Attack up to 5 times a day"
The Echo Knight is just overloaded, and its not even that its Front-Loaded and then the rest is just meh, every Ability they get is top Tier.
I mean, compare it to the Battlemaster, which is a frontloaded class.
They get their main feature right away, but therefore the rest of their abilities are flavour or just slight upgrades to the Main feature.
Compare those two and tell me the Echo Knight isnt leagues better with all the offers.
I would say for sure battlemaster is better.
They get a lot more options for builds and will put out a lot more damage then an echo Knight.
They get a lot more options for builds and will put out a lot more damage then an echo Knight.
Yes, the Battle Master gets more options, that is correct, and if you look at pure damage numbers, the Battle master will win, if your DM allows a short rest after each fight, because theBattlemaster actually has ressources he has to use for his abilities.
But if we take utility into account, or just say that instead of one fight per short rest you get a whole dungeon, suddendly the Battle master runs out of Subclass ressources, while the Echo Knight can still do all his stuff, teleporting all over the place each round, scouting with no risk or ressource spend, and only getting hit if t5he player really screws up.
I’m not sure what you are looking for @Raoul9753. Do you just want us to agree with you that the Echo Knight is over powered?
Yes, it is a strong subclass, no doubt. And it does have a number of advantages beyond combat. I personally think it fills a hole and I love the flavor and style of play. (Does that make me wrong?) But it isn’t for everyone. If you think it is overpowered, don’t play with them. But I don’t think there is a need to tell everyone else they are wrong. And I personally think there really are stronger subclasses.
But a good DM knows it isn’t always about power level. It is easy enough to adjust encounters, regardless of how potent a character is. That said, there are other subclasses I wouldn’t allow or play myself.
On the other hand, if you are looking for suggestions to balance them out, please feel free to offer suggestions.
I’m not sure what you are looking for @Raoul9753. Do you just want us to agree with you that the Echo Knight is over powered?
Yes, it is a strong subclass, no doubt. And it does have a number of advantages beyond combat. I personally think it fills a hole and I love the flavor and style of play. (Does that make me wrong?) But it isn’t for everyone. If you think it is overpowered, don’t play with them. But I don’t think there is a need to tell everyone else they are wrong. And I personally think there really are stronger subclasses.
But a good DM knows it isn’t always about power level. It is easy enough to adjust encounters, regardless of how potent a character is. That said, there are other subclasses I wouldn’t allow or play myself.
On the other hand, if you are looking for suggestions to balance them out, please feel free to offer suggestions.
In my opinion they are pretty balanced. Fairly front Loaded and fairly built towards shorter fights much like the Battle Master. Though Battle Master gets back resources a little quicker instead of the mobility aspects that the Echo Knight Gets. And both get slowly matched by certain other Subclasses based primarily upon how long fights last and how many there are as compared to short rests, as well as the fighting style/weapon combo's that most suit them. Some may drop a little bit of Damage to be more versatile (The BM actually does this to some extent by people don't really address that when talking about how good and how versatile and how much damage it does. But you can't really have both all the damage and all the versatility at once) but that's just another way that they are balanced out. You have your fast hitters that burn out quick. You have your slow but steadies. You have more or less extra bits of versatility with their various costs or potential limits. Fighters do pretty well at being overall even when you look at them with anything other than minute pinpoints of singular metrics like damage in mind.
Question. What feats, class abilities, or races give bonuses for "charging" at an opponent?
I'm sure this has been asked before, but it seems like a Echo Knight might make for an interesting "Charger" style build. With the ability to then swap/teleport away using their Echo, they can charge again next turn. Would this work? Thoughts?
Question. What feats, class abilities, or races give bonuses for "charging" at an opponent?
I'm sure this has been asked before, but it seems like a Echo Knight might make for an interesting "Charger" style build. With the ability to then swap/teleport away using their Echo, they can charge again next turn. Would this work? Thoughts?
Charging as an ability doesn't exist in 5e, anyone can charge in. The charger feat isn't worth it, as it's only a single weapon swing after the dash action, as a bonus action, which means you're still burning your entire turn for the one weapon swing.
Mobile is 10 more feet of movement, 5 levels of barbarian gives you 10 more, 50ft is pretty fast, but that's heavy investment to get it.
You've got the idea with the teleport swap, if you want it be he there yourself, but remember that your Echo, while fragile, can swing any number of your attacks. You dont need to ever be there if you don't want to
Interesting out of the box thinking, but I don’t think it’s viable for the reasons stated by Lanc3.
Sacrificing multiple attacks for a single bonus action attack with +5 damage seems like a waste when you can take GWM, buff yourself up to deal with the -5 attack and get +10 damage on multiple attacks.
I’ll be continuing on with my EK shortly; he’ll be F6/Barb 1. Can’t wait to get to Barb 2 for the safest reckless attack in the business.
Bah. I realized that too, and deleted my post. Still works but requires an extra step:
Grappling, “restraining”, and whaling on squishy enemies is also something particularly suited to a str based echo knight, as follows:
Start behind the front line with echo manifested (your echo is always manifested, right?);
Cross the lines with the E- it doesn’t attract OA’s or, if there’s no manoeuvrable room to cross, do it by way of walking over the lines on a diagonal into the air and then a diagonal back towards the ground, and your target;
Teleport and change places with the E; use extra movement to close in on your target, as needed;
Take a shove attack on the low-str target, like a spellcaster. Odds are in your favour you’ll win a contested str check. Knock the enemy prone;
Once prone, use a second attack and/or off-hand attack (can this be done?) and/or action surge to grapple the sucker while prone. Your target is now stuck on the ground with a movement of zero, potentially able to escape your grapple, though unlikely, and unable to directly escape the prone condition. While prone, you’ve got advantage on the enemy, since you’re within 5’ of the target;
Use subsequent turns to whale on the target with one-handed weapons, with advantage use your other hand and/or extra attacks to whale on your target with a one-handed weapon, with advantage;;
If target escapes, try to reestablish grapple with attacks. If unable to do so, teleport back behind the lines, safe and sound!
Edit: this technique is particularly suited to barb dipped Knights- your shove and grapple attacks, being str checks, get advantage while raging. Sweet.
Provided a) your echo is manifested; b) your target’s within 30’ of your echo; and c) you’re already raging (if you can), there’s a simpler, safer method.
Close the gap to the squishy target with the echo;
Take the shove and grapple attack actions by way of multiple attacks, action surge, and/or unleash incarnation;
If target both successfully shoved and grappled (with one hand), teleport and switch places to keep the grapple going;
Next turn, whale on your enemy with a one-handed weapon.
Man, if that first shove attack works, think of the Nova damage you could inflict on a squishy target.
Along with however many attacks you get per your fighter level, if you dump all your unleash incarnations, multi-attacks, and action surge on a low AC squishy, all rolled with advantage due to the prone condition, while also getting your +2 rage damage bonus…
No matter how you slice it, that’s a ton of damage being inflicted on a squishy character that almost certainly can’t afford to take it.
So I’ve started playing my F6/Barb2 EK (my turn DM’ing is done). Amazing. Works better than I’d have dreamed. The build is ridiculous in its reliability. Reliability in hitting targets, reliability in doing good damage, reliability in forcing enemies to waste their attacks on the echo.
The rage/echo BA conflict just isn’t- provided your echo is out already, which of course it is, makes no sense in having to summon it IN combat when you can have it already manifested and active before. Tank, striker- secret lover. Build’s got *oomph*.
So I’ve started playing my F6/Barb2 EK (my turn DM’ing is done). Amazing. Works better than I’d have dreamed. The build is ridiculous in its reliability. Reliability in hitting targets, reliability in doing good damage, reliability in forcing enemies to waste their attacks on the echo.
The rage/echo BA conflict just isn’t- provided your echo is out already, which of course it is, makes no sense in having to summon it IN combat when you can have it already manifested and active before. Tank, striker- secret lover. Build’s got *oomph*.
Awesome to hear. What attack pattern do you mostly use, and do you go for grappling? If I may ask, what build details did you end up going with? (Feats, race, stats, etc.)
Edit: I've been wanting to play a very similar build, but with 1 more level in barbarian to go Ancestral Guardian, primarily to help the rest of the party.
Same as I’ve been describing on this thread- half orc EK with PAM. Adding one level of barb made my EK tougher; adding the second made both the EK and the E more dangerous.
I get why you’d want an extra level in barb for P of AG, but from my perspective, I’d suggest you do yourself a favour and play test it a bit first. Echo? Awesome. Resistance to damage and adding bonus to str and damage attacks? Awesome. Being able to attack recklessly and get advantage on dex saves? Very awesome. Forcing one single other enemy to fight you, the tank, who’s already at the front lines? It’s fine. Worth putting off an A.S.I. or avatar or shutting off legion of one forever? Depends on your play test, I guess.
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I believe the above is incorrect.
Q: Can you use an Echo Avatar to make an attack up to 1000’ away?
A: No. By RAI, attacks cannot be made through an Echo Avatar.
So basically, they had to nerf it with "well, actually, RAI isnt like whats actually written in the rulebook!"
Good, then it goes from "gamebreaking" to just "insanely powerfull" at level 3.
They cover a good amount of space I will agree but a sharpshooter fighter is better for that anyway as they can kill something up to 600ft away with hardly a penalty thanks to archery style.
Echo is good don't get me wrong but its not overtly powerful compared to the other fighter options.
I mean, even if we ignore everything else, just the fact that you get unlimited casts of misty step at level 3 is already pretty insane...
Shadow monk gets 60ft of free teleport too for no cost. And casters get Misty step too and I think they will generally have more slots to cast that then the baddies have 5ht level slots to cast wall of force or the like.
Its very good do not get me wrong but its not something insurmountable.
Say you teleport out of a trap and the rest of the party is left behind....now you are by yourself facing down whatever made it. Separating yourself is sometimes the right answer but not always.
Yes, at level 6 and its the only thing they get at this level, its not one of 3 powerfull abilities.
And it comes with conditions, any light source will limit where they can teleport. Shadow Monk is actually a very good comparison, an u7nlimited bonus action Teleport should be a midgame feature and is on itself, even with limitations, a very strong ability.
Archfey Warlock is another example, they get a once per short rest Teleport they can only use after getting attacked, but in exchange they turn invisible.
Again, at level 6, and its the only ability they get at this level.
I would have no problem if the free Misty steps were what Echo Knights got at Level 7 and it was the main feature, instead of level 3 where they already got "Summon unlimited bodies to the Battlefield", have a 30+ feet melee attack range", "declare an area at will where you can make AoO without being there" and "Extra Attack up to 5 times a day"
The Echo Knight is just overloaded, and its not even that its Front-Loaded and then the rest is just meh, every Ability they get is top Tier.
I mean, compare it to the Battlemaster, which is a frontloaded class.
They get their main feature right away, but therefore the rest of their abilities are flavour or just slight upgrades to the Main feature.
Compare those two and tell me the Echo Knight isnt leagues better with all the offers.
I would say for sure battlemaster is better.
They get a lot more options for builds and will put out a lot more damage then an echo Knight.
Yes, the Battle Master gets more options, that is correct, and if you look at pure damage numbers, the Battle master will win, if your DM allows a short rest after each fight, because theBattlemaster actually has ressources he has to use for his abilities.
But if we take utility into account, or just say that instead of one fight per short rest you get a whole dungeon, suddendly the Battle master runs out of Subclass ressources, while the Echo Knight can still do all his stuff, teleporting all over the place each round, scouting with no risk or ressource spend, and only getting hit if t5he player really screws up.
I’m not sure what you are looking for @Raoul9753. Do you just want us to agree with you that the Echo Knight is over powered?
Yes, it is a strong subclass, no doubt. And it does have a number of advantages beyond combat. I personally think it fills a hole and I love the flavor and style of play. (Does that make me wrong?) But it isn’t for everyone. If you think it is overpowered, don’t play with them. But I don’t think there is a need to tell everyone else they are wrong. And I personally think there really are stronger subclasses.
But a good DM knows it isn’t always about power level. It is easy enough to adjust encounters, regardless of how potent a character is. That said, there are other subclasses I wouldn’t allow or play myself.
On the other hand, if you are looking for suggestions to balance them out, please feel free to offer suggestions.
In my opinion they are pretty balanced. Fairly front Loaded and fairly built towards shorter fights much like the Battle Master. Though Battle Master gets back resources a little quicker instead of the mobility aspects that the Echo Knight Gets. And both get slowly matched by certain other Subclasses based primarily upon how long fights last and how many there are as compared to short rests, as well as the fighting style/weapon combo's that most suit them. Some may drop a little bit of Damage to be more versatile (The BM actually does this to some extent by people don't really address that when talking about how good and how versatile and how much damage it does. But you can't really have both all the damage and all the versatility at once) but that's just another way that they are balanced out. You have your fast hitters that burn out quick. You have your slow but steadies. You have more or less extra bits of versatility with their various costs or potential limits. Fighters do pretty well at being overall even when you look at them with anything other than minute pinpoints of singular metrics like damage in mind.
Question. What feats, class abilities, or races give bonuses for "charging" at an opponent?
I'm sure this has been asked before, but it seems like a Echo Knight might make for an interesting "Charger" style build. With the ability to then swap/teleport away using their Echo, they can charge again next turn. Would this work? Thoughts?
Charging as an ability doesn't exist in 5e, anyone can charge in. The charger feat isn't worth it, as it's only a single weapon swing after the dash action, as a bonus action, which means you're still burning your entire turn for the one weapon swing.
Mobile is 10 more feet of movement, 5 levels of barbarian gives you 10 more, 50ft is pretty fast, but that's heavy investment to get it.
You've got the idea with the teleport swap, if you want it be he there yourself, but remember that your Echo, while fragile, can swing any number of your attacks. You dont need to ever be there if you don't want to
Interesting out of the box thinking, but I don’t think it’s viable for the reasons stated by Lanc3.
Sacrificing multiple attacks for a single bonus action attack with +5 damage seems like a waste when you can take GWM, buff yourself up to deal with the -5 attack and get +10 damage on multiple attacks.
I’ll be continuing on with my EK shortly; he’ll be F6/Barb 1. Can’t wait to get to Barb 2 for the safest reckless attack in the business.
Grapple doesn't provide advantage, does it?
Bah. I realized that too, and deleted my post. Still works but requires an extra step:
Grappling, “restraining”, and whaling on squishy enemies is also something particularly suited to a str based echo knight, as follows:
Edit: this technique is particularly suited to barb dipped Knights- your shove and grapple attacks, being str checks, get advantage while raging. Sweet.
Provided a) your echo is manifested; b) your target’s within 30’ of your echo; and c) you’re already raging (if you can), there’s a simpler, safer method.
Ta da.
Man, if that first shove attack works, think of the Nova damage you could inflict on a squishy target.
Along with however many attacks you get per your fighter level, if you dump all your unleash incarnations, multi-attacks, and action surge on a low AC squishy, all rolled with advantage due to the prone condition, while also getting your +2 rage damage bonus…
No matter how you slice it, that’s a ton of damage being inflicted on a squishy character that almost certainly can’t afford to take it.
Update:
So I’ve started playing my F6/Barb2 EK (my turn DM’ing is done). Amazing. Works better than I’d have dreamed. The build is ridiculous in its reliability. Reliability in hitting targets, reliability in doing good damage, reliability in forcing enemies to waste their attacks on the echo.
The rage/echo BA conflict just isn’t- provided your echo is out already, which of course it is, makes no sense in having to summon it IN combat when you can have it already manifested and active before. Tank, striker- secret lover. Build’s got *oomph*.
Awesome to hear. What attack pattern do you mostly use, and do you go for grappling? If I may ask, what build details did you end up going with? (Feats, race, stats, etc.)
Edit: I've been wanting to play a very similar build, but with 1 more level in barbarian to go Ancestral Guardian, primarily to help the rest of the party.
Same as I’ve been describing on this thread- half orc EK with PAM. Adding one level of barb made my EK tougher; adding the second made both the EK and the E more dangerous.
I get why you’d want an extra level in barb for P of AG, but from my perspective, I’d suggest you do yourself a favour and play test it a bit first. Echo? Awesome. Resistance to damage and adding bonus to str and damage attacks? Awesome. Being able to attack recklessly and get advantage on dex saves? Very awesome. Forcing one single other enemy to fight you, the tank, who’s already at the front lines? It’s fine. Worth putting off an A.S.I. or avatar or shutting off legion of one forever? Depends on your play test, I guess.