You attack as if you were in the echos position. It does not have ammo so you lose what you use like normal.
Funny you should mention ammo, it only validates the need for you to make an attack by yourself, including when you are in hiding. Like, what do you do with your arrow/bolt when you attack from the echo's position? Does it just disappear from your inventory, or do you have to draw your (cross)bow, aim and shoot? Also what happens with the ammo after you make the shot? Does it teleport moments after to the echo's position?
The way I flavor it in my game is as you swing or shoot, your arms appear in the echo’s position and disappear from the echo once the attack is made. You’re still notching an arrow and firing it, you just use dunamis magic to fire it from your echoes position.
Echo is a solid subclass. It allows for an extra target that enemies have to deal with. It is immune to conditions. Do you have a smart DM that likes to grapple your fighter in combat? well, stay grappled. Dont waste time and actions trying to break it. keep tied down with that opponent, and let your echo keep fighting. Have you gotten yourself tied down with multiple enemies but the wizard is in trouble? send your echo for aid. And on the next turn tp to the wizard.
The echo utilizes positioning in combat, wasting the enemies actions, and allows the fighter to have some of the best mobility in the game, competing with monks and rogues. And all of that is just at 3rd level.
Not sure if the grappling would work, as you are still making the attack so it would probably be at disadvantage. However, the echo means you can still attack and ignore 0 movement speed. Then teleport to the echo, since the echo is immune to conditions, including grapple, smack the grappler a dozen times. There is no pinning an echo knight. You’d need a solid steel box that you can’t see out of to keep them in place. Any crack or crevice you can see out of you can escape through using echo teleport. Or you know, an anti magic field, but that’s not in the average jail
I've said it before in my big rant posts, but people are still confused about it, so I'll say it again:
Echoes are basically portals! You still use an arrow to shoot, but the arrow appears from the Echoes' space! Your physical self still draws a dagger, and throws it, but it is thrown from the position your echo is in!
Just one clarification, I'm going to respond to ProxyJames again, because he clearly wants this subclass to suck, and either doesn't understand the rules or intent of the rules at all, or is just a gosh-awful DM who wants to make subclasses suck for his players.
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I’m going to put a link to my echo knight analysis here. I believe you could use it, ProxyJames. To know a classes weaknesses, you should at least know the class.
yes I do know the class and the problem is that it has no strengths, also before you write something you should always double check the rules and know the difference between rules as written and rules as intended, for instanced everyone though you could use the avatar to teleport up to 1000 feet witch is not the cause as confirmed by jeremy crawford. I have played ALOT and I have DMed alot, I have been in both high and low games, the way you guys want this class to preform is having a invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything, this is not the case, you have a very fragile thing that dies in one hit and will have a max AC of 20 at level 17 that lets you preform a extra attack once per turn up to 5 times per long rest, it is extremely unreliable because if it gets countered hard your are just a basic fighter and the only real benefit from it is the extra attack witch isn't that strong. if a DM really wanted to he could have a creature using ranged weapons and spells hanging back and holding a action to shoot the echo as soon as its summoned. combat has a flow to it and its heavily based on the action economy, most of the tactics that would actually make the echo useful has several turns of set up witch is several turns of you doing nothing hence decreasing your groups action economy to benefit no one, combat 101: pick one creature and put it down as fast as you can, the less turns they get the more likely you are to win, also because the echo knight lacks the raw burst damage of the other classes it falls behind in damage and because it doesn't really do anything to support the team other than take one hit that may or may not hit is all its gets (Shadow Martyr has to be used BEFORE anyone sees the attack roll so you could just waste a reaction on nothing). it doesn't really provide any real battle field control even with the threat of attacks of opportunity because the creatures within 30 feet of you are going to run in your face anyways and the creatures outside of 30 foot radius wont care, as a battle master with a longbow or heavy crossbow you have COMPLETE control of everything on the battlefield being able to fear creatures on the backline to stop them from attacking or disarm creatures with giant weapons to lower there damage, champion does this by just being a crit machine and running in, samurai pretty much provides the same bonus as echo knight but doesn't suck at it, eldritch knight can support the group with spells and later on cast haste on themselfs so the casters can cast another target, arcane archer can trip up and disable creatures outright, cavalier can punish foes that target anyone but them and has total battlefield coverage on a mount. echo knight...one extra attack and maybe stop one other attack, as I said before having two echos later on makes 0 difference because you only have one bonus action and one reaction that may or may not stop a attack, if you really want to be a class that does the same thing but better be a war cleric. also lastly I may state that the only argument that people have for it is that ITS A OBJECT SO SPELLS DON'T EFFECT IT and the funny part I bet alot of these people have used spells to attack doors, nets or other things of that nature, if it has AC, HP and can move around, anything that can effect a creature can effect it, though I would give it immunity to psychic and poison damage for obvious reasons, but if you ever play this class get ready to summon that echo ALOT because the DM is going to use every opportunity to shut it down and as I was saying earlier once its gone you are basic fighter, all the other fighter classes can't be stopped from using there abilities, many don't even need a weapon! many subclasses don't need anything to work, they just need to show up and do there thing, echo knight needs a multitude of things to work right: can't be fighting smart enemies that will hold attacks to kill it, can't have any type of AoE or environment damage, can't be a anti magic area, has to be within 30 feet of the summoner, on top of that if you have disadvantage or can't for some reason the echo will have disadvantage or won't be able to attack as well as it sates "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack." note that it says "any attack you make that action can originate from your space or the echo's space" meaning the echo is not making the attack YOU ARE, so if you can't attack or have disadvantage it does too (same goes for having advantage on your attack though) also you have to actually be able to SEE what the echo is attacking, if you are behind a wall with full cover you can't make any attacks because you can't attack things you can't see or take reactions on things you can't see for that matter.
Before I say anything else, you clearly don't have any understanding of what this class is meant to do, because you think that Wizards of the Coast designed it to suck. Wizards doesn't purposefully design things to suck. If they make something that sucks, they fix it, and it is on accident. You are saying that everything you think that this subclass does is the intent of Wizards, and it is meant to suck. You clearly have no understanding of RAW or RAI, because you think that the subclass was designed to suck, and that it does suck, and that the explanations that Jeremy Crawford gave to explain certain abilities make it suck even more. THEY DON'T DESIGN THINGS TO SUCK!
Next, you still have not given any real reason to support your strange interpretations of the rules. You say something incorrect, I correct you, you rebut saying "THAT IS HOW IT WORKS, I KNOW BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THE RULES!!!". That isn't a real reason to support your answers. You can't pick and choose which rules you want to follow and call it RAW or RAI, and ignore the others that actually make it a good subclass.
Ease up, stop trying to make people think this subclass sucks. It doesn't. You're the only one who thinks it sucks, and now that people don't agree with you, you're making up bull crap responses, calling it RAW, and then screaming that we all have wrong interpretations of the rules. I understand you feel attacked because you're the only one who has this opinion that the subclass sucks, but you can give up, we're not going to think any worse of you if you stop fighting that the subclass is actually good. I'd actually respect you a bit if you gave up, because it shows that you can admit when you're wrong, and take constructive criticism.
Now, time to crush your arguments again:
You can be seeing through its eyes and ears and attack through it at the same time with the current version of the subclass. Jeremy Crawford has clarified this wasn't the intention, but it is currently legal, which I've said many times, and it will be until they change the ability in Errata, or officially state in Sage Advice that you cannot do this. If you want to rule that this isn't legal in your games, following the advice of Jeremy Crawford, you do so, I am just saying it is currently legal in the current writing of the abilities.
The fact that Jeremy Crawford said that it isn't meant to be able to be an attacker while you're seeing through its eyes doesn't make the ability suck. It just makes is a spell-slot free divination spell. It is a good ability. Stop saying it is useless, because it isn't.
AC 20 and one hit point is pretty good. It is hard to hit for most creatures. Sure, at the levels where it has that AC, you'll most likely be fighting Tarrasques and Tiamat that will hit on anything but a natural 1. So, who cares? This doesn't make the subclass any worse. If the Tarrasque attacks the Echo, who cares? It is gone, you summon it back as a bonus action. Instead of you or your party member being slashed by the tarrasque, instead the Echo does. Why does this suck? It doesn't.
What point are you trying to get across? You say that it has a terrible armor class, so it can't survive anything, and then when we say that it makes it so your party member isn't hit by an attack, you totally ignore that point. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY? IT IS NONSENSE AND BULL-CRAP! Any attack that is made against the echo instead of an ally is a win for the party. NO ONE WOULD PREFER THE WIZARD DYING TO AN ECHO BEING DESTROYED FOR 1 ROUND!!! SURE, IT HAS ONE HIT POINT! THAT MAKES IT EVEN BETTER, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER THE AMOUNT OF HIT POINTS IT HAS, IT TAKES DAMAGE AND IS GONE!! THE WIZARD DOESN'T TAKE A HIT THAT WOULD KILL IT! THE ECHO IS INSTEAD TEMPORARILY GONE, AND! YOU CAN BRING IT BACK AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
What the hell do you mean it provides no battlefield control? Yet another bull-crap statement. IF YOU MAKE OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS FROM ITS POSITION WITH SENTINEL, YOU STOP THEM FROM MOVING! THEY CAN BE 30 FEET AWAY FROM YOU, AND YOU GET TO ATTACK THEM AND STOP THEIR MOVEMENT! THIS IS LITERALLY ONE OF THE BEST BATTLEFIELD CONTROL ABILITIES ANY FIGHTER CAN DO!
What the heck do you mean that one extra attack and blocking one attack is useless? STOP MAKING UP CRAP! No other fighter gets multiple free extra attacks at level 3! NO ONE! THE CHARACTER CAN DEAL SIGNIFICANTLY MORE DAMAGE THAN ANY OTHER FIGHTER WITH AN EXTRA ATTACK FOR FREE AT THAT SAME LEVEL!!! BLOCKING ATTACK ROLLS IS A REACTION, BUT IT IS WORTH IT! WHO CARES IF YOU DON'T GET TO USE YOUR OPPORTUNITY ATTACK FROM THE ECHO'S POSITION THIS TURN? NO ONE! BECAUSE, YOU STOPPED THE WIZARD FROM DYING!
What the heck? I literally just said in my post blasting you before that I agree with you that Toll of the Dead cannot be used on the echo. Are you illiterate, or you just don't have the mental capacity to remember something I just said? I literally said that I DON'T LET PEOPLE TO SACRED FLAME OR TOLL OF THE DEAD OR SAPPING STING AN OBJECT! I INCLUDE ECHOES IN THIS! Not only do you ignore the rules, but you immediately forget/ignore that I literally just said that you can't do the thing you're saying that I say you can do! NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND LETS THE WIZARD/CLERIC TOLL OF THE DEAD A ROCK! It says creature. I said it says creature. You said it says creature. Then you ignore that, and say you'd allow it to work on an Echo/Object. Then, I correct you, say that it only works on creatures, not objects/echoes. Then, you say that I would let it work on an object. STOP TELLING PEOPLE HOW THEY PLAY THEIR GAME! I ACTUALLY PLAY BY THE RULES! THE FACT THAT YOU DON'T DOESN'T MEAN THAT I DON'T!!!
All objects have immunity to poison and psychic damage. All of them. Echoes are immune to poison and psychic damage. You don't need to state the obvious as if it were a huge revelation you had about this one specific thing. Also, you were just saying that you'd have it act like a creature, you've been saying that for a long, long, long time. Now, you're saying "duh, it acts like an objects, so it can't take poison or psychic damage, but also, I'd let it take damage from spells that it can't, because I want to ignore the rules." Stop. Just stop. You can't flip-flop like that and try to get away with it. You can't pretend like I'm the one who rules it incorrectly because you didn't know how the rules worked.
Why do you think the DM would use every opportunity to shut it down? I am assuming because you're that type of DM, or you have a DM like that. If you have a DM that does that, get a different group, they're a jerk that shouldn't be DMing or playing D&D. If you do it that way, you are a jerk. Seriously, if you take every opportunity to make the subclass horrible, like you're saying you would do, you are a terrible, awful DM that really should stop DMing, because no one likes to play in a game where they can't use their abilities EVER because the DM thinks that they shouldn't be able to play it that way.
It can't be in an Antimagic field is true. Also, that applies to Arcane Archers, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Open Hands Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Wizards, and Artificers. The fact that Antimagic Field affects it doesn't make it suck, because if that were true, literally anyone who ever casts spells, uses magical abilities, has magic items, or is born with magic powers is apparently useless because that one spell can shut them down. If you are having enough Antimagic Fields present to make the subclass suck through the campaign, you are a terrible DM.
I have been saying the whole time that the echo isn't attacking, it is you. The echo is just a portal. The fact that the attack is disadvantage if anyone else has disadvantage doesn't make the subclass suck. ANYONE IN THE GAME CAN GET DISADVANTAGE! THE FACT THAT THIS SUBCLASS OBEYS THE GENERAL RULES OF THE GAME THAT EVERY OTHER CLASS AND SUBCLASS DOES DOESN'T MAKE THEM SUCK!
Shadow Martyr can be useless if the attack misses. Sorry to break it to you, but EVERYONE HAS ABILITIES THAT CAN FAIL!!! OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS CAN MISS! THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO THAT YOUR REACTION IS WASTED! FIGHTERS DON'T GET A LOT OF REACTION OPTIONS, SO ANY OPTION THEY HAVE IS A WIN, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!!! Wizards can waste a spell slot by casting shield on an attack that would hit anyways. Anyone can waste a reaction by making an opportunity attack that misses. Anyone can attack and miss. ABILITIES CAN FAIL! THAT GIVES D&D A PURPOSE! ABILITIES DON'T SUCCEED ALL THE TIME, OR DICE WOULD BE USELESS!!!
Stop. Just stop. Stop trying to convince us that this subclass sucks because of the way that you're rule it. You are a terrible DM if you make a subclass suck because you don't like it.
If you are going to reply, reply with real rebuttals. Actually go down each of my points and find RULES that make it so they wouldn't work. Otherwise, you've proved my point by ignoring this. Ignoring another person's argument is a form of defeat and shows that you have no idea what you're talking about, whether that is true or not.
You said this, " you guys want this class to preform is having a invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything, this is not the case"
No! I don't want this to have an invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything. When did I say this? When did anyone say this?
It can move vertically, Jeremy Crawford said so. It cannot make ability checks. It clearly cannot "go anywhere and do anything." It can't stealth. It can't do acrobatics checks. It can't juggle 3 oranges. There are things it cannot do, like any "companion" you can have in the game. Wizard Familiars can't attack. Steel Defenders can't talk. Beast Master companions can't attack on their own. The echo cannot do anything on its own. It literally needs you to tell it what to do. It cannot exist when you are incapacitated. It cannot do anything without you acting so it can do things.
I don't want it to be game breaking. The current form of it is not game breaking. It also doesn't suck, like you are obsessed with having it be.
Just stop. If you aren't going to stop, get a real argument, because I'm tired of listening to crap.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Something I see multiple people saying that I think RAW doesn't work, is that the Echo threatens. For Clarification, I use Echo to refer to the Manifest Echo clone, and Knight to refer to the Fighter themselves.
The exact wording is thus: When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
You don't threaten the space, you see a creature move away from the Echo and are able to take an Opportunity Attack. This matters. The Echo doesn't provide flanking. The Echo doesn't provide Sneak Attack Assist. The Echo's with reach weapons take Opportunity Attacks when creatures move away from being within 5 feet of it, NOT from moving out of the 10 foot reach of their weapon. Echo Knights are not able to take advantage of the Sentinal Feat's special reaction attack feature. Disengage prevents this Opportunity Attack from triggering. Blinding the Knight, or even something as simple as a minor illusion wall to break line of sight can prevent it.
Disengage: If you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn.
Sentinel still lowers the speed of anyone hit by the Echo's Opportunity Attack, because that specifically modifies the Knight's Opportunity Attack, and you take the Opportunity Attack as if you (the Knight) were in the echo's space. This interaction is also how they can make attacks with ranged weapons, which some people seem to be confused by.
Ammunition: You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition.
You need to have Ammunition, and ammunition is expended when you make an attack.
Manifest Echo's relevant text: When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.
When you (the Knight) take an attack, any attack originates from the Echo's space, so the Knight Attacks, expends ammo, and the attack comes from the Echo's space. How you want to fluff that is up to you.
Now there is a possible interpretation that I don't think is the intended way of reading this, that it's not the enemies movement that triggers the Opportunity Attack, but rather the Knight SEEING the movement. "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it." Since it specifically calls it an Opportunity Attack, and every reaction that is called an Opportunity Attack is triggered by movement (Polearm Mastery, Cavalier features, etc), having this one instance be triggered by the Knight seeing that movement and not the movement itself seems odd, and it seems like they'd have specified it was it's own special attack like the Sentinel Feat does. That said, if it wasn't called an Opportunity Attack, then the Sentinel Feat lowering speed wouldn't work on the Echo's reaction attack, so maybe they wanted to preserve that functionality. Like I mentioned, I don't think this is how it is intended to be interpreted, but there is at least a somewhat reasonable argument about whether it is the sight of the movement or the movement itself that triggers the attack, and I wanted to point it out and get other peoples interpretations. I'm not even sure it'd be overpowered, considering all the other limitations. It's not like other fighter class features haven't replicated the benefits of the Sentinel Feat, and the anti-disengage option is actually the only part of Sentinel that isn't copied by Cavaliers, so...?
see the problem with your logic for the ranged attack with the echo is as I stated before, it can't carry the ammo, here is a example. the echo if 15 feet from you, you make your crossbow attack come from the echo...nothing happens because the echo pulled the trigger and then nothing came out, also by the lgoic of echo is that if it did produce ammo the fired ammo would vanish after 30 feet then lastly there is the fact of....its a bow you can shoot it from anywhere you want so long as you can see the creature, the way people want to use it is standing behind full cover and using the echo to fire there attacks from complete safety, witch does not work because in order to attack something with the echo you have to see what you are attacking in the first place, and as the echo has no senses of its own this is not possible, and if you try to do this as the avatar you would have to waste a turn because the avatar is a action. the echo was designed for exclusive use with a melee weapon to give the user slightly more range but its not really piratical in combat unless you really want that archer 30 feet away from you to die letting you face tank the thing in front of you while attack the guy way behind him but once again it all must be in a 30 feet radius of yourself and going back to the ranged thing, if you want complete safety find some full cover you pop out from behind of with 5-15 feet of movement, make your attacks and pop back behind cover! like I said people just want to have a invulnerable thing that takes there place so they can ease though most combat but its not the way echo knight works so they are getting mad. everything I have stated is someone who knows the rules can deduce for themselves
see the problem with your logic for the ranged attack with the echo is as I stated before, it can't carry the ammo, here is a example. the echo if 15 feet from you, you make your crossbow attack come from the echo...nothing happens because the echo pulled the trigger and then nothing came out, also by the lgoic of echo is that if it did produce ammo the fired ammo would vanish after 30 feet then lastly there is the fact of....its a bow you can shoot it from anywhere you want so long as you can see the creature, the way people want to use it is standing behind full cover and using the echo to fire there attacks from complete safety, witch does not work because in order to attack something with the echo you have to see what you are attacking in the first place, and as the echo has no senses of its own this is not possible, and if you try to do this as the avatar you would have to waste a turn because the avatar is a action. the echo was designed for exclusive use with a melee weapon to give the user slightly more range but its not really piratical in combat unless you really want that archer 30 feet away from you to die letting you face tank the thing in front of you while attack the guy way behind him but once again it all must be in a 30 feet radius of yourself and going back to the ranged thing, if you want complete safety find some full cover you pop out from behind of with 5-15 feet of movement, make your attacks and pop back behind cover! like I said people just want to have a invulnerable thing that takes there place so they can ease though most combat but its not the way echo knight works so they are getting mad. everything I have stated is someone who knows the rules can deduce for themselves
But the echo isn't the entity making the attack. The player character is making the attack, and the attack originates from the echo's space. The echo is a DOORWAY for attacks to come through from the character. The ammo is coming from the player, teleported through the echo, and goes on from there. The echo doesn't NEED ammo because YOU have the ammo.
Also. Practical* not piratical.
The point of the echo is an increased range of attack and damage for a fighter, for the fighter to "be in two places at once" in combat, infinitely by using a bonus action to resummon the echo should it be killed (or sacrificed to stop the Wizard from dying, as LeviRocks put it), not to be invulnerable or whatever.
You are clearly misreading the rules, because the rest of us have deduced our arguments from the rules as they currently are, with some minor clarification from Jeremy Crawford. You, on the other hand, are projecting your incorrect perceptions onto the rest of us and are so determined to make this subclass suck for no reason.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
see the problem with your logic for the ranged attack with the echo is as I stated before, it can't carry the ammo, here is a example. the echo if 15 feet from you, you make your crossbow attack come from the echo...nothing happens because the echo pulled the trigger and then nothing came out, also by the lgoic of echo is that if it did produce ammo the fired ammo would vanish after 30 feet then lastly there is the fact of....its a bow you can shoot it from anywhere you want so long as you can see the creature, the way people want to use it is standing behind full cover and using the echo to fire there attacks from complete safety, witch does not work because in order to attack something with the echo you have to see what you are attacking in the first place, and as the echo has no senses of its own this is not possible, and if you try to do this as the avatar you would have to waste a turn because the avatar is a action. the echo was designed for exclusive use with a melee weapon to give the user slightly more range but its not really piratical in combat unless you really want that archer 30 feet away from you to die letting you face tank the thing in front of you while attack the guy way behind him but once again it all must be in a 30 feet radius of yourself and going back to the ranged thing, if you want complete safety find some full cover you pop out from behind of with 5-15 feet of movement, make your attacks and pop back behind cover! like I said people just want to have a invulnerable thing that takes there place so they can ease though most combat but its not the way echo knight works so they are getting mad. everything I have stated is someone who knows the rules can deduce for themselves
1. The attacks comes as if you were in it's position. The attack comes from you. Now you're just saying this subclass makes all your attacks invalid, that's just dishonesty. It's not optimal to use the echo for ranged attacks, I agree. I think the echo itself allows you to essentially do a ranged attack with a sword.
2. The ammo wouldn't vanish after 30 ft. The echo doesn't vanish if it goes 30ft from you. It vanishes at the end of your turn if it's 30ft from you. No rational DM is going to rule it that way.
3. I agree trying to hide behind a wall and attack is not a good way to use it and is nigh impossible. I'd rather just stare them down 30ft away while my echo hacks it to pieces.
4. Thanks for giving me another good idea for echo tactics. Stand behind half cover and let the echo attack. Neat little AC boost in case something comes my way.
5. It's not supposed to be invulnerable. If it was invulnerable I wouldn't use it because the enemies would probably just ignore it and bash the wizard. I want enemies to waste all their attacks on my echo. 10 damage on an echo is 10 damage lost to the void. A crit on an echo is in my humble opinion, no better than a nat 1 on an ally (unless you use fumble rules).
see the problem with your logic for the ranged attack with the echo is as I stated before, it can't carry the ammo, here is a example. the echo if 15 feet from you, you make your crossbow attack come from the echo...nothing happens because the echo pulled the trigger and then nothing came out, also by the lgoic of echo is that if it did produce ammo the fired ammo would vanish after 30 feet then lastly there is the fact of....its a bow you can shoot it from anywhere you want so long as you can see the creature, the way people want to use it is standing behind full cover and using the echo to fire there attacks from complete safety, witch does not work because in order to attack something with the echo you have to see what you are attacking in the first place, and as the echo has no senses of its own this is not possible, and if you try to do this as the avatar you would have to waste a turn because the avatar is a action. the echo was designed for exclusive use with a melee weapon to give the user slightly more range but its not really piratical in combat unless you really want that archer 30 feet away from you to die letting you face tank the thing in front of you while attack the guy way behind him but once again it all must be in a 30 feet radius of yourself and going back to the ranged thing, if you want complete safety find some full cover you pop out from behind of with 5-15 feet of movement, make your attacks and pop back behind cover! like I said people just want to have a invulnerable thing that takes there place so they can ease though most combat but its not the way echo knight works so they are getting mad. everything I have stated is someone who knows the rules can deduce for themselves
The wording of the feature explicitly states that the Fighter makes the attack, and can choose to have the attack originate from the Echo's space. By your logic, the Echo can't make melee attacks either, because it's not holding the sword/maul/glaive/etc. By your logic, the Echo would swing, and pass right through the enemy creature because it's a, and I'm quoting the book here, "magical, translucent, gray image" and translucent images don't hurt when you pass through them, so the Echo can't melee attack right? The Echo, a magical object the fighter is creating, can't possible have any kind of strange, magical properties, because that's not how the real world works right?
I cannot eyeroll nor /sarcasm hard enough with this person, and this is my second post. There are plenty misconceptions (that I posted about above) people have been making, things people have actually said. You keep saying that 'people are saying this or that' but I'm not seeing anyone saying they want an invulnerable thing to make combat easy. Stop putting fake words in non-existant peoples mouths.
see the problem with your logic for the ranged attack with the echo is as I stated before, it can't carry the ammo, here is a example. the echo if 15 feet from you, you make your crossbow attack come from the echo...nothing happens because the echo pulled the trigger and then nothing came out, also by the lgoic of echo is that if it did produce ammo the fired ammo would vanish after 30 feet then lastly there is the fact of....its a bow you can shoot it from anywhere you want so long as you can see the creature, the way people want to use it is standing behind full cover and using the echo to fire there attacks from complete safety, witch does not work because in order to attack something with the echo you have to see what you are attacking in the first place, and as the echo has no senses of its own this is not possible, and if you try to do this as the avatar you would have to waste a turn because the avatar is a action. the echo was designed for exclusive use with a melee weapon to give the user slightly more range but its not really piratical in combat unless you really want that archer 30 feet away from you to die letting you face tank the thing in front of you while attack the guy way behind him but once again it all must be in a 30 feet radius of yourself and going back to the ranged thing, if you want complete safety find some full cover you pop out from behind of with 5-15 feet of movement, make your attacks and pop back behind cover! like I said people just want to have a invulnerable thing that takes there place so they can ease though most combat but its not the way echo knight works so they are getting mad. everything I have stated is someone who knows the rules can deduce for themselves
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS?!?!?! THE ECHO IS A PORTAL!!! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO HOLD ANYTHING! YOUR WEAPONS "TELEPORT" TO WHERE THEY ARE! THEY DON'T NEED AMMUNITION, YOU DO!
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The subclass is not meant to have an invulnerable copy that can do anything. I've said this multiple times. Can you read? Seriously. I know you can write, not well, but you can write. You mustn't be able to read, because you clearly don't understand anything we're saying, or that the subclass is saying.
You probably can read, but either choose to ignore what you're seeing, or just choose what words you read so you can say anything you want.
News Flash: We've been supporting our statements with evidence, you pick and choose what you want to listen to.
It isn't supposed to have an invulnerable copy. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT! Can you read minds? Seriously, the only way that your argument that the subclass the way we want it is broken is if you can read our minds and somehow tell if one of us wants this to be broken.
It creates a temporary copy of themselves that can attack for you, take hits for you or a party member, and help you attack more for a bit.
IT HAS 1 HIT POINT! It's not invulnerable. Do you know what invulnerable means?
Invulnerable means, "impossible to harm or damage." THEY CAN BE DAMAGED! THEY CAN DISAPPEAR AS QUICKLY AS THEY APPEARED!
But, they are immune to things that CREATURES are vulnerable to. They can't be grappled, restrained, poisoned, incapacitated, petrified, or any of that. They are immune to poison and psychic damage, because they're objects, and all objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. They are apparently immune to gravity.
BUT, they don't have minds. They aren't intimidating. They're not threats. Sure, they can attack. Sure, they can damage people, but they don't have ANY PERSONALITY! They literally cannot do anything unless you command them to. They cannot EXIST without you being able to command them in some way, shape, or form.
Stop trying to make us the bad guy. You're clearly the bad guy in this situation. You want to make the subclass suck. You want to confuse people on how the rules work. You are too prideful to admit that you have/had no idea how this subclass works or is intended to work, because you're wrong.
You're wrong, we're right. Stop spreading misinformation. There's nothing bad with making a mistake and being confused on how something works, because 5e is pretty complicated, but it is wrong and bad to not admit it when you get something wrong, and is even worse to stick by your incorrect opinion when others give you a bit of constructive criticism.
Just stop. When you reply, (I know you will) actually have an argument. Stop hopping from one bull crap ruling to another. The stuff you're making up now is becoming ridiculous.
Be correct. If you can't be correct, admit it.
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The subclass is not meant to have an invulnerable copy that can do anything. I've said this multiple times. Can you read? Seriously. I know you can write, not well, but you can write. You mustn't be able to read, because you clearly don't understand anything we're saying, or that the subclass is saying.
You probably can read, but either choose to ignore what you're seeing, or just choose what words you read so you can say anything you want.
News Flash: We've been supporting our statements with evidence, you pick and choose what you want to listen to.
It isn't supposed to have an invulnerable copy. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT! Can you read minds? Seriously, the only way that your argument that the subclass the way we want it is broken is if you can read our minds and somehow tell if one of us wants this to be broken.
It creates a temporary copy of themselves that can attack for you, take hits for you or a party member, and help you attack more for a bit.
IT HAS 1 HIT POINT! It's not invulnerable. Do you know what invulnerable means?
Invulnerable means, "impossible to harm or damage." THEY CAN BE DAMAGED! THEY CAN DISAPPEAR AS QUICKLY AS THEY APPEARED!
But, they are immune to things that CREATURES are vulnerable to. They can't be grappled, restrained, poisoned, incapacitated, petrified, or any of that. They are immune to poison and psychic damage, because they're objects, and all objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. They are apparently immune to gravity.
BUT, they don't have minds. They aren't intimidating. They're not threats. Sure, they can attack. Sure, they can damage people, but they don't have ANY PERSONALITY! They literally cannot do anything unless you command them to. They cannot EXIST without you being able to command them in some way, shape, or form.
Stop trying to make us the bad guy. You're clearly the bad guy in this situation. You want to make the subclass suck. You want to confuse people on how the rules work. You are too prideful to admit that you have/had no idea how this subclass works or is intended to work, because you're wrong.
You're wrong, we're right. Stop spreading misinformation. There's nothing bad with making a mistake and being confused on how something works, because 5e is pretty complicated, but it is wrong and bad to not admit it when you get something wrong, and is even worse to stick by your incorrect opinion when others give you a bit of constructive criticism.
Just stop. When you reply, (I know you will) actually have an argument. Stop hopping from one bull crap ruling to another. The stuff you're making up now is becoming ridiculous.
Be correct. If you can't be correct, admit it.
the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter. also alot of what you posted has nothing to do with anything I said but with things you said and are now contradicting yourself XD I never said they do or do not count as a threatening creature that was a argument you had with someone else, my argument was that in piratical combat this subclass is pretty much the worst out of all the fighter subclasses, its full of holes, easy to counter and limited in what it can actually do, but I have countered every one of you "this will be a sound battle plan and not a waste of everyone time as I spend 3 turns setting up" I have stated nothing incorrect and in fact you are the one who has stated unconfirmed information without giving a source for your information and I have only used information given about the class as described in the book.
the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter.
Where's the rules on objects? Page 246 and 247 of the DMG. Here, let me copy past a small section of the OFFICIAL DMG RULES ABOUT OBJECTS
Objects and Damage Types. Objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. You might decide that some damage types are more effective against a particular object or substance than others. For example, bludgeoning damage works well for smashing things but not for cutting through rope or leather. Paper or cloth objects might be vulnerable to fire and lightning damage. A pick can chip away stone but can't effectively cut down a tree. As always, use your best judgment.
What's that first ******* line? IMMUNE to poison and psychic damage. If you are too incompetent to read and understand the rules and know how they work, that doesn't mean other people are making shit up. Also, since it is an object that automatically means spells that target creatures cannot target it, because they cannot target objects. If you want to change that in your games, fine, go ahead, more power to you. But don't tell people that they are wrong when RAW this is how it is intended to work.
As for the floating. Again, read the rules.
Manifest Echo(snippet): On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).
ANY DIRECTION. Read that again. ANY. DIRECTION. It's a translucent gray image, why WOULD it fall from gravity. Are you really going to say it's going to fall. What if I cast Minor Illusion to create the image of person standing in the air, will that person fall? NO. Because it's an image. And before you come back with "Well if it's an object why doesn't it fall" bullshit, read the above tweet again. It is an image that counts as an object. And if you want further proof. Let me AGAIN redirect you to what Jeremy Crawford has said: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242186507433070592
Got a chance to play a lvl 3 echo knight in combat. Can say, It was awesome. It was the only combat encounter of the night and we were aware it would be, so I was able to go all out. about 6 actions were wasted on destroying an echo, of which I spawned 3. So as for action economy, I traded 3 bonus actions to waste 6 full actions. Wiped the floor with the bandit captain, unleashing action surge along with 2 unleash incarnations in one turn. 4 attacks dealing 45 damage total. Very much enjoying the class, able to kill enemies while staying a cool 30 ft away. Even got to test the using cover and attack with the echo strategy by popping around a corner, spawning an echo, whacking a guy, then taking cover again. Wonderful.
the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter. also alot of what you posted has nothing to do with anything I said but with things you said and are now contradicting yourself XD I never said they do or do not count as a threatening creature that was a argument you had with someone else, my argument was that in piratical combat this subclass is pretty much the worst out of all the fighter subclasses, its full of holes, easy to counter and limited in what it can actually do, but I have countered every one of you "this will be a sound battle plan and not a waste of everyone time as I spend 3 turns setting up" I have stated nothing incorrect and in fact you are the one who has stated unconfirmed information without giving a source for your information and I have only used information given about the class as described in the book.
First of all, you spelled first wrong. Seriously, use a spellchecker. There's hundreds online.
Second, this made me laugh.
Third, like others have said MANY, MANY TIMES, THEY ARE OBJECTS! You don't believe me? Here! Proof that you're wrong! Also, Matt Mercer said in this video that they are objects as well. Matt Mercer Proving I'm Right (I'm not giving you a time stamp, you don't deserve one. I watched the whole thing, maybe you should too.)
They aren't invulnerable! THEY HAVE 1 HIT POINT! They can't survive being hit by anything, as long as it does damage that isn't poison or psychic. That is the only thing they are "invulnerable" to. Sure, they're immune to conditions, but that doesn't make them broken. It is literally in the book that they are immune to conditions, so if you have something against that, you're definitely wrong.
Next! OBJECTS ARE IMMUNE TO POISON AND PSYCHIC DAMAGE! Why wouldn't they? You can't psychically harm a rock! You can't damage a table with poison! Like we have confirmed more than 3 times, an echo is an object. This means that echoes are immune to poison and psychic damage. It isn't a real creature, doesn't have a real functioning body, so it can't be harmed by poison. IT DOESN'T HAVE A MIND! That means that it can't take psychic damage. Ever tried to mind blast a feather? IT DOESN'T WORK!
"also alot of what you posted has nothing to do with anything I said but with things you said and are now contradicting yourself XD I never said they do or do not count as a threatening creature that was a argument you had with someone else"
What the heck was this? First off, run on sentence. Use a spellchecker, or learn proper english! Next, actually quote me word for word when you want to make an argument against me, or else you kind of sound stupid.
I mentioned that they aren't a "threat" because of some posts people have been saying that they should be counted as a threat for flanking. I was just clarifying, everything I say isn't all about you, the world doesn't revolve around you. I was clarifying something, why does everything I say have to be a response to you? Also, how does that contradict anything I said? If you say I contradict myself, actually give an example, or else it looks like you're just putting down a word you learned from one of our posts. Also, with all the crazy bat-crap you've been stating recently, if you really haven't said that it is counted as a threat, I kind of assumed you'd go down that road eventually.
Again, piratical means acting like a pirate, you've put that twice now, and I think you mean "practical."
"I have stated nothing incorrect and in fact you are the one who has stated unconfirmed information without giving a source for your information and I have only used information given about the class as described in the book."
Yeah, about that. That whole statement is full of made up bull crap. Your post right before this one tried to say that you can't shoot a creature more than 30 feet away from the echo with a bow. That's just one of MANY MANY things that you've said that was incorrect. That sentence you just said was incorrect, so you have "stated something incorrect."
(also, it's a subclass, not a class)
The "information" you've used from the book is a bunch of nonsensical garbage meant to misinform those that actually want to play this subclass, so next time you say, "this subclass is pretty much the worst out of all the fighter subclasses," maybe actually get some real information, because that whole post was malarkey.
Finally, before you post anything else, just answer this one question:
Got a chance to play a lvl 3 echo knight in combat. Can say, It was awesome. It was the only combat encounter of the night and we were aware it would be, so I was able to go all out. about 6 actions were wasted on destroying an echo, of which I spawned 3. So as for action economy, I traded 3 bonus actions to waste 6 full actions. Wiped the floor with the bandit captain, unleashing action surge along with 2 unleash incarnations in one turn. 4 attacks dealing 45 damage total. Very much enjoying the class, able to kill enemies while staying a cool 30 ft away. Even got to test the using cover and attack with the echo strategy by popping around a corner, spawning an echo, whacking a guy, then taking cover again. Wonderful.
Can you Unleash Incarnation multiple times in a turn? I'd only use it once per Attack action, but I'm not sure what the ruling is here. Maybe if you action surged or had haste, then you could do one each Attack action, I'd allow that, but I don't know if just under normal circumstances you could. Correct me if I'm wrong, (anyone but ProxyJames,) but I interpret "Whenever you take the Attack action" as once when you take it.
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Got a chance to play a lvl 3 echo knight in combat. Can say, It was awesome. It was the only combat encounter of the night and we were aware it would be, so I was able to go all out. about 6 actions were wasted on destroying an echo, of which I spawned 3. So as for action economy, I traded 3 bonus actions to waste 6 full actions. Wiped the floor with the bandit captain, unleashing action surge along with 2 unleash incarnations in one turn. 4 attacks dealing 45 damage total. Very much enjoying the class, able to kill enemies while staying a cool 30 ft away. Even got to test the using cover and attack with the echo strategy by popping around a corner, spawning an echo, whacking a guy, then taking cover again. Wonderful.
Can you Unleash Incarnation multiple times in a turn? I'd only use it once per Attack action, but I'm not sure what the ruling is here. Maybe if you action surged or had haste, then you could do one each Attack action, I'd allow that, but I don't know if just under normal circumstances you could. Correct me if I'm wrong, (anyone but ProxyJames,) but I interpret "Whenever you take the Attack action" as once when you take it.
No I don’t think you can use it more than once per attack. I used attack, unleash, then action surge, then attack, unleash. Very nice burst.
Got a chance to play a lvl 3 echo knight in combat. Can say, It was awesome. It was the only combat encounter of the night and we were aware it would be, so I was able to go all out. about 6 actions were wasted on destroying an echo, of which I spawned 3. So as for action economy, I traded 3 bonus actions to waste 6 full actions. Wiped the floor with the bandit captain, unleashing action surge along with 2 unleash incarnations in one turn. 4 attacks dealing 45 damage total. Very much enjoying the class, able to kill enemies while staying a cool 30 ft away. Even got to test the using cover and attack with the echo strategy by popping around a corner, spawning an echo, whacking a guy, then taking cover again. Wonderful.
Can you Unleash Incarnation multiple times in a turn? I'd only use it once per Attack action, but I'm not sure what the ruling is here. Maybe if you action surged or had haste, then you could do one each Attack action, I'd allow that, but I don't know if just under normal circumstances you could. Correct me if I'm wrong, (anyone but ProxyJames,) but I interpret "Whenever you take the Attack action" as once when you take it.
No I don’t think you can use it more than once per attack. I used attack, unleash, then action surge, then attack, unleash. Very nice burst.
That's what I assumed would happen, and did happen. Just a clarification. That is very powerful for level 3. What weapons were you using? I assume a greatsword, or halberd.
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Got a chance to play a lvl 3 echo knight in combat. Can say, It was awesome. It was the only combat encounter of the night and we were aware it would be, so I was able to go all out. about 6 actions were wasted on destroying an echo, of which I spawned 3. So as for action economy, I traded 3 bonus actions to waste 6 full actions. Wiped the floor with the bandit captain, unleashing action surge along with 2 unleash incarnations in one turn. 4 attacks dealing 45 damage total. Very much enjoying the class, able to kill enemies while staying a cool 30 ft away. Even got to test the using cover and attack with the echo strategy by popping around a corner, spawning an echo, whacking a guy, then taking cover again. Wonderful.
Can you Unleash Incarnation multiple times in a turn? I'd only use it once per Attack action, but I'm not sure what the ruling is here. Maybe if you action surged or had haste, then you could do one each Attack action, I'd allow that, but I don't know if just under normal circumstances you could. Correct me if I'm wrong, (anyone but ProxyJames,) but I interpret "Whenever you take the Attack action" as once when you take it.
No I don’t think you can use it more than once per attack. I used attack, unleash, then action surge, then attack, unleash. Very nice burst.
That's what I assumed would happen, and did happen. Just a clarification. That is very powerful for level 3. What weapons were you using? I assume a greatsword, or halberd.
I was using a long sword with dueling. I failed to mention getting two critical hits lol, that certainly helped the damage spike
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The way I flavor it in my game is as you swing or shoot, your arms appear in the echo’s position and disappear from the echo once the attack is made. You’re still notching an arrow and firing it, you just use dunamis magic to fire it from your echoes position.
Not sure if the grappling would work, as you are still making the attack so it would probably be at disadvantage. However, the echo means you can still attack and ignore 0 movement speed. Then teleport to the echo, since the echo is immune to conditions, including grapple, smack the grappler a dozen times. There is no pinning an echo knight. You’d need a solid steel box that you can’t see out of to keep them in place. Any crack or crevice you can see out of you can escape through using echo teleport. Or you know, an anti magic field, but that’s not in the average jail
I've said it before in my big rant posts, but people are still confused about it, so I'll say it again:
Echoes are basically portals! You still use an arrow to shoot, but the arrow appears from the Echoes' space! Your physical self still draws a dagger, and throws it, but it is thrown from the position your echo is in!
Just one clarification, I'm going to respond to ProxyJames again, because he clearly wants this subclass to suck, and either doesn't understand the rules or intent of the rules at all, or is just a gosh-awful DM who wants to make subclasses suck for his players.
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Before I say anything else, you clearly don't have any understanding of what this class is meant to do, because you think that Wizards of the Coast designed it to suck. Wizards doesn't purposefully design things to suck. If they make something that sucks, they fix it, and it is on accident. You are saying that everything you think that this subclass does is the intent of Wizards, and it is meant to suck. You clearly have no understanding of RAW or RAI, because you think that the subclass was designed to suck, and that it does suck, and that the explanations that Jeremy Crawford gave to explain certain abilities make it suck even more. THEY DON'T DESIGN THINGS TO SUCK!
Next, you still have not given any real reason to support your strange interpretations of the rules. You say something incorrect, I correct you, you rebut saying "THAT IS HOW IT WORKS, I KNOW BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND THE RULES!!!". That isn't a real reason to support your answers. You can't pick and choose which rules you want to follow and call it RAW or RAI, and ignore the others that actually make it a good subclass.
Ease up, stop trying to make people think this subclass sucks. It doesn't. You're the only one who thinks it sucks, and now that people don't agree with you, you're making up bull crap responses, calling it RAW, and then screaming that we all have wrong interpretations of the rules. I understand you feel attacked because you're the only one who has this opinion that the subclass sucks, but you can give up, we're not going to think any worse of you if you stop fighting that the subclass is actually good. I'd actually respect you a bit if you gave up, because it shows that you can admit when you're wrong, and take constructive criticism.
Now, time to crush your arguments again:
Stop. Just stop. Stop trying to convince us that this subclass sucks because of the way that you're rule it. You are a terrible DM if you make a subclass suck because you don't like it.
If you are going to reply, reply with real rebuttals. Actually go down each of my points and find RULES that make it so they wouldn't work. Otherwise, you've proved my point by ignoring this. Ignoring another person's argument is a form of defeat and shows that you have no idea what you're talking about, whether that is true or not.
You said this, " you guys want this class to preform is having a invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything, this is not the case"
No! I don't want this to have an invulnerable copy of yourself that can go anywhere and do anything. When did I say this? When did anyone say this?
It can move vertically, Jeremy Crawford said so. It cannot make ability checks. It clearly cannot "go anywhere and do anything." It can't stealth. It can't do acrobatics checks. It can't juggle 3 oranges. There are things it cannot do, like any "companion" you can have in the game. Wizard Familiars can't attack. Steel Defenders can't talk. Beast Master companions can't attack on their own. The echo cannot do anything on its own. It literally needs you to tell it what to do. It cannot exist when you are incapacitated. It cannot do anything without you acting so it can do things.
I don't want it to be game breaking. The current form of it is not game breaking. It also doesn't suck, like you are obsessed with having it be.
Just stop. If you aren't going to stop, get a real argument, because I'm tired of listening to crap.
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Sorry for the rant everyone (except ProxyJames).
I'll not post anything else until someone says something incorrect.
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Something I see multiple people saying that I think RAW doesn't work, is that the Echo threatens. For Clarification, I use Echo to refer to the Manifest Echo clone, and Knight to refer to the Fighter themselves.
The exact wording is thus: When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
You don't threaten the space, you see a creature move away from the Echo and are able to take an Opportunity Attack. This matters. The Echo doesn't provide flanking. The Echo doesn't provide Sneak Attack Assist. The Echo's with reach weapons take Opportunity Attacks when creatures move away from being within 5 feet of it, NOT from moving out of the 10 foot reach of their weapon. Echo Knights are not able to take advantage of the Sentinal Feat's special reaction attack feature. Disengage prevents this Opportunity Attack from triggering. Blinding the Knight, or even something as simple as a minor illusion wall to break line of sight can prevent it.
Disengage: If you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn.
Sentinel still lowers the speed of anyone hit by the Echo's Opportunity Attack, because that specifically modifies the Knight's Opportunity Attack, and you take the Opportunity Attack as if you (the Knight) were in the echo's space. This interaction is also how they can make attacks with ranged weapons, which some people seem to be confused by.
Ammunition: You can use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition.
You need to have Ammunition, and ammunition is expended when you make an attack.
Manifest Echo's relevant text: When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.
When you (the Knight) take an attack, any attack originates from the Echo's space, so the Knight Attacks, expends ammo, and the attack comes from the Echo's space. How you want to fluff that is up to you.
Now there is a possible interpretation that I don't think is the intended way of reading this, that it's not the enemies movement that triggers the Opportunity Attack, but rather the Knight SEEING the movement. "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it." Since it specifically calls it an Opportunity Attack, and every reaction that is called an Opportunity Attack is triggered by movement (Polearm Mastery, Cavalier features, etc), having this one instance be triggered by the Knight seeing that movement and not the movement itself seems odd, and it seems like they'd have specified it was it's own special attack like the Sentinel Feat does. That said, if it wasn't called an Opportunity Attack, then the Sentinel Feat lowering speed wouldn't work on the Echo's reaction attack, so maybe they wanted to preserve that functionality. Like I mentioned, I don't think this is how it is intended to be interpreted, but there is at least a somewhat reasonable argument about whether it is the sight of the movement or the movement itself that triggers the attack, and I wanted to point it out and get other peoples interpretations. I'm not even sure it'd be overpowered, considering all the other limitations. It's not like other fighter class features haven't replicated the benefits of the Sentinel Feat, and the anti-disengage option is actually the only part of Sentinel that isn't copied by Cavaliers, so...?
see the problem with your logic for the ranged attack with the echo is as I stated before, it can't carry the ammo, here is a example. the echo if 15 feet from you, you make your crossbow attack come from the echo...nothing happens because the echo pulled the trigger and then nothing came out, also by the lgoic of echo is that if it did produce ammo the fired ammo would vanish after 30 feet then lastly there is the fact of....its a bow you can shoot it from anywhere you want so long as you can see the creature, the way people want to use it is standing behind full cover and using the echo to fire there attacks from complete safety, witch does not work because in order to attack something with the echo you have to see what you are attacking in the first place, and as the echo has no senses of its own this is not possible, and if you try to do this as the avatar you would have to waste a turn because the avatar is a action.
the echo was designed for exclusive use with a melee weapon to give the user slightly more range but its not really piratical in combat unless you really want that archer 30 feet away from you to die letting you face tank the thing in front of you while attack the guy way behind him but once again it all must be in a 30 feet radius of yourself and going back to the ranged thing, if you want complete safety find some full cover you pop out from behind of with 5-15 feet of movement, make your attacks and pop back behind cover! like I said people just want to have a invulnerable thing that takes there place so they can ease though most combat but its not the way echo knight works so they are getting mad.
everything I have stated is someone who knows the rules can deduce for themselves
But the echo isn't the entity making the attack. The player character is making the attack, and the attack originates from the echo's space. The echo is a DOORWAY for attacks to come through from the character. The ammo is coming from the player, teleported through the echo, and goes on from there. The echo doesn't NEED ammo because YOU have the ammo.
Also. Practical* not piratical.
The point of the echo is an increased range of attack and damage for a fighter, for the fighter to "be in two places at once" in combat, infinitely by using a bonus action to resummon the echo should it be killed (or sacrificed to stop the Wizard from dying, as LeviRocks put it), not to be invulnerable or whatever.
You are clearly misreading the rules, because the rest of us have deduced our arguments from the rules as they currently are, with some minor clarification from Jeremy Crawford. You, on the other hand, are projecting your incorrect perceptions onto the rest of us and are so determined to make this subclass suck for no reason.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
1. The attacks comes as if you were in it's position. The attack comes from you. Now you're just saying this subclass makes all your attacks invalid, that's just dishonesty. It's not optimal to use the echo for ranged attacks, I agree. I think the echo itself allows you to essentially do a ranged attack with a sword.
2. The ammo wouldn't vanish after 30 ft. The echo doesn't vanish if it goes 30ft from you. It vanishes at the end of your turn if it's 30ft from you. No rational DM is going to rule it that way.
3. I agree trying to hide behind a wall and attack is not a good way to use it and is nigh impossible. I'd rather just stare them down 30ft away while my echo hacks it to pieces.
4. Thanks for giving me another good idea for echo tactics. Stand behind half cover and let the echo attack. Neat little AC boost in case something comes my way.
5. It's not supposed to be invulnerable. If it was invulnerable I wouldn't use it because the enemies would probably just ignore it and bash the wizard. I want enemies to waste all their attacks on my echo. 10 damage on an echo is 10 damage lost to the void. A crit on an echo is in my humble opinion, no better than a nat 1 on an ally (unless you use fumble rules).
The wording of the feature explicitly states that the Fighter makes the attack, and can choose to have the attack originate from the Echo's space. By your logic, the Echo can't make melee attacks either, because it's not holding the sword/maul/glaive/etc. By your logic, the Echo would swing, and pass right through the enemy creature because it's a, and I'm quoting the book here, "magical, translucent, gray image" and translucent images don't hurt when you pass through them, so the Echo can't melee attack right? The Echo, a magical object the fighter is creating, can't possible have any kind of strange, magical properties, because that's not how the real world works right?
I cannot eyeroll nor /sarcasm hard enough with this person, and this is my second post. There are plenty misconceptions (that I posted about above) people have been making, things people have actually said. You keep saying that 'people are saying this or that' but I'm not seeing anyone saying they want an invulnerable thing to make combat easy. Stop putting fake words in non-existant peoples mouths.
HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS?!?!?!
THE ECHO IS A PORTAL!!! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO HOLD ANYTHING! YOUR WEAPONS "TELEPORT" TO WHERE THEY ARE! THEY DON'T NEED AMMUNITION, YOU DO!
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The subclass is not meant to have an invulnerable copy that can do anything. I've said this multiple times. Can you read? Seriously. I know you can write, not well, but you can write. You mustn't be able to read, because you clearly don't understand anything we're saying, or that the subclass is saying.
You probably can read, but either choose to ignore what you're seeing, or just choose what words you read so you can say anything you want.
News Flash: We've been supporting our statements with evidence, you pick and choose what you want to listen to.
It isn't supposed to have an invulnerable copy. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT! Can you read minds? Seriously, the only way that your argument that the subclass the way we want it is broken is if you can read our minds and somehow tell if one of us wants this to be broken.
It creates a temporary copy of themselves that can attack for you, take hits for you or a party member, and help you attack more for a bit.
IT HAS 1 HIT POINT! It's not invulnerable. Do you know what invulnerable means?
Invulnerable means, "impossible to harm or damage." THEY CAN BE DAMAGED! THEY CAN DISAPPEAR AS QUICKLY AS THEY APPEARED!
But, they are immune to things that CREATURES are vulnerable to. They can't be grappled, restrained, poisoned, incapacitated, petrified, or any of that. They are immune to poison and psychic damage, because they're objects, and all objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. They are apparently immune to gravity.
BUT, they don't have minds. They aren't intimidating. They're not threats. Sure, they can attack. Sure, they can damage people, but they don't have ANY PERSONALITY! They literally cannot do anything unless you command them to. They cannot EXIST without you being able to command them in some way, shape, or form.
Stop trying to make us the bad guy. You're clearly the bad guy in this situation. You want to make the subclass suck. You want to confuse people on how the rules work. You are too prideful to admit that you have/had no idea how this subclass works or is intended to work, because you're wrong.
You're wrong, we're right. Stop spreading misinformation. There's nothing bad with making a mistake and being confused on how something works, because 5e is pretty complicated, but it is wrong and bad to not admit it when you get something wrong, and is even worse to stick by your incorrect opinion when others give you a bit of constructive criticism.
Just stop. When you reply, (I know you will) actually have an argument. Stop hopping from one bull crap ruling to another. The stuff you're making up now is becoming ridiculous.
Be correct. If you can't be correct, admit it.
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the fist thing you said is invalidated due to the fact you have been campaigning for it to be immune to most damage and be able to float around everywhere and make attacks on creatures you can even see and just generally stand in for you. also they are not immune to poison and psychic or any damage type for that matter it is just immune to conditions, also many people like you say its a object but I have not found any tangible sources though online searches, matter of fact there have been several tweets to jeremy crawford and matthew mercer asking if it counts as a object or a creature and they have not commented on the matter. also alot of what you posted has nothing to do with anything I said but with things you said and are now contradicting yourself XD I never said they do or do not count as a threatening creature that was a argument you had with someone else, my argument was that in piratical combat this subclass is pretty much the worst out of all the fighter subclasses, its full of holes, easy to counter and limited in what it can actually do, but I have countered every one of you "this will be a sound battle plan and not a waste of everyone time as I spend 3 turns setting up"
I have stated nothing incorrect and in fact you are the one who has stated unconfirmed information without giving a source for your information and I have only used information given about the class as described in the book.
What do you mean Jeremy Crawford hasn't commented? Upgrade your shitty investigation skills man, because Jeremy Crawford HAS EXPLICITLY STATED IT'S AN OBJECT! https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1240669629661380609
Where's the rules on objects? Page 246 and 247 of the DMG. Here, let me copy past a small section of the OFFICIAL DMG RULES ABOUT OBJECTS
Objects and Damage Types. Objects are immune to poison and psychic damage. You might decide that some damage types are more effective against a particular object or substance than others. For example, bludgeoning damage works well for smashing things but not for cutting through rope or leather. Paper or cloth objects might be vulnerable to fire and lightning
damage. A pick can chip away stone but can't effectively cut down a tree. As always, use your best judgment.
What's that first ******* line? IMMUNE to poison and psychic damage. If you are too incompetent to read and understand the rules and know how they work, that doesn't mean other people are making shit up. Also, since it is an object that automatically means spells that target creatures cannot target it, because they cannot target objects. If you want to change that in your games, fine, go ahead, more power to you. But don't tell people that they are wrong when RAW this is how it is intended to work.
As for the floating. Again, read the rules.
Manifest Echo(snippet): On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required).
ANY DIRECTION. Read that again. ANY. DIRECTION. It's a translucent gray image, why WOULD it fall from gravity. Are you really going to say it's going to fall. What if I cast Minor Illusion to create the image of person standing in the air, will that person fall? NO. Because it's an image. And before you come back with "Well if it's an object why doesn't it fall" bullshit, read the above tweet again. It is an image that counts as an object. And if you want further proof. Let me AGAIN redirect you to what Jeremy Crawford has said: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242186507433070592
Got a chance to play a lvl 3 echo knight in combat. Can say, It was awesome. It was the only combat encounter of the night and we were aware it would be, so I was able to go all out. about 6 actions were wasted on destroying an echo, of which I spawned 3. So as for action economy, I traded 3 bonus actions to waste 6 full actions. Wiped the floor with the bandit captain, unleashing action surge along with 2 unleash incarnations in one turn. 4 attacks dealing 45 damage total. Very much enjoying the class, able to kill enemies while staying a cool 30 ft away. Even got to test the using cover and attack with the echo strategy by popping around a corner, spawning an echo, whacking a guy, then taking cover again. Wonderful.
First of all, you spelled first wrong. Seriously, use a spellchecker. There's hundreds online.
Second, this made me laugh.
Third, like others have said MANY, MANY TIMES, THEY ARE OBJECTS! You don't believe me? Here! Proof that you're wrong! Also, Matt Mercer said in this video that they are objects as well. Matt Mercer Proving I'm Right (I'm not giving you a time stamp, you don't deserve one. I watched the whole thing, maybe you should too.)
They aren't invulnerable! THEY HAVE 1 HIT POINT! They can't survive being hit by anything, as long as it does damage that isn't poison or psychic. That is the only thing they are "invulnerable" to. Sure, they're immune to conditions, but that doesn't make them broken. It is literally in the book that they are immune to conditions, so if you have something against that, you're definitely wrong.
Next! OBJECTS ARE IMMUNE TO POISON AND PSYCHIC DAMAGE! Why wouldn't they? You can't psychically harm a rock! You can't damage a table with poison! Like we have confirmed more than 3 times, an echo is an object. This means that echoes are immune to poison and psychic damage. It isn't a real creature, doesn't have a real functioning body, so it can't be harmed by poison. IT DOESN'T HAVE A MIND! That means that it can't take psychic damage. Ever tried to mind blast a feather? IT DOESN'T WORK!
"also alot of what you posted has nothing to do with anything I said but with things you said and are now contradicting yourself XD I never said they do or do not count as a threatening creature that was a argument you had with someone else"
What the heck was this? First off, run on sentence. Use a spellchecker, or learn proper english! Next, actually quote me word for word when you want to make an argument against me, or else you kind of sound stupid.
I mentioned that they aren't a "threat" because of some posts people have been saying that they should be counted as a threat for flanking. I was just clarifying, everything I say isn't all about you, the world doesn't revolve around you. I was clarifying something, why does everything I say have to be a response to you? Also, how does that contradict anything I said? If you say I contradict myself, actually give an example, or else it looks like you're just putting down a word you learned from one of our posts. Also, with all the crazy bat-crap you've been stating recently, if you really haven't said that it is counted as a threat, I kind of assumed you'd go down that road eventually.
Again, piratical means acting like a pirate, you've put that twice now, and I think you mean "practical."
"I have stated nothing incorrect and in fact you are the one who has stated unconfirmed information without giving a source for your information and I have only used information given about the class as described in the book."
Yeah, about that. That whole statement is full of made up bull crap. Your post right before this one tried to say that you can't shoot a creature more than 30 feet away from the echo with a bow. That's just one of MANY MANY things that you've said that was incorrect. That sentence you just said was incorrect, so you have "stated something incorrect."
(also, it's a subclass, not a class)
The "information" you've used from the book is a bunch of nonsensical garbage meant to misinform those that actually want to play this subclass, so next time you say, "this subclass is pretty much the worst out of all the fighter subclasses," maybe actually get some real information, because that whole post was malarkey.
Finally, before you post anything else, just answer this one question:
Why do you want this subclass to suck?
That's it.
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Can you Unleash Incarnation multiple times in a turn? I'd only use it once per Attack action, but I'm not sure what the ruling is here. Maybe if you action surged or had haste, then you could do one each Attack action, I'd allow that, but I don't know if just under normal circumstances you could. Correct me if I'm wrong, (anyone but ProxyJames,) but I interpret "Whenever you take the Attack action" as once when you take it.
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No I don’t think you can use it more than once per attack. I used attack, unleash, then action surge, then attack, unleash. Very nice burst.
That's what I assumed would happen, and did happen. Just a clarification. That is very powerful for level 3. What weapons were you using? I assume a greatsword, or halberd.
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I was using a long sword with dueling. I failed to mention getting two critical hits lol, that certainly helped the damage spike