You're not wrong, I just think that the things you DON'T get from Barbarian outweigh getting this one thing.
Barbarians still have:
d12 hit die
Other base barbarian features
All of their subclass features
I don't think putting a rage-like mechanic on a rune is that bad. You don't really get to use it much more than a barbarian can until 15th level, when you can use it twice per short rest. You're also not probably going to be fighting more than 5 times per day, so I can't really see how the short rest reset does much for you. PLUS, it still takes up a rune slot.
All in all, I REALLY love this subclass, and I think it's in line with Battlemaster. It gives far more out of combat flavor than most Fighter subclasses do.
At least regarding the hit die bit: Fighters actually have more average HP than a Barbarian, assuming equal con mods. Barbs tend to look better because their Cons tend to be higher, but for the sake of easy math, let's assume both have a Con of 10.
At first level, the Barb has 12 hit points and the Fighter 10. However, the Fighter has access to Second Wind, restoring an average of 6.5 HP per use. Even factoring for their hit die restoring one extra point to the Barbarian on average, the Fighter nets 5.5 effective HP more. And that assumes only using Second Wind once per day, when in reality I'd expect it to be used at least twice.
At fifth level, the Barb has 38 hit points and the Fighter 33. Again though, the Fighter has Second Wind, now adding 10.5 HP per use on average, and even if both classes use all of their hit dice, the Barbarian only gets back 5 more HP than the Fighter does - meaning that even if the Fighter only used Second Wind once it's still ahead.
Even once you get past 5th the Fighter is much better off; in theory the Barbarian's extra hit die + extra point per level takes over, but only in worlds where he's routinely leveraging every one of his hit dice and the Fighter is only using Second Wind once per day, which is almost impossible to have happen in real play.
This doesn't usually come up because thanks to Rage the Barbarian usually has more effective HP, since he's taking half damage from most attacks... but then, Hill Rune.
Of course, that isn't saying anything about subclass features or other class features; if we acknowledge that the Rune Knight is the most tanky Fighter you probably compare it to Bear Totem Barbarian and then that gets a lot more interesting. But in terms of raw hit points, Fighters actually just straight-up outclass Barbs.
You're not wrong, I just think that the things you DON'T get from Barbarian outweigh getting this one thing.
Barbarians still have:
d12 hit die
Other base barbarian features
All of their subclass features
I don't think putting a rage-like mechanic on a rune is that bad. You don't really get to use it much more than a barbarian can until 15th level, when you can use it twice per short rest. You're also not probably going to be fighting more than 5 times per day, so I can't really see how the short rest reset does much for you. PLUS, it still takes up a rune slot.
All in all, I REALLY love this subclass, and I think it's in line with Battlemaster. It gives far more out of combat flavor than most Fighter subclasses do.
At least regarding the hit die bit: Fighters actually have more average HP than a Barbarian, assuming equal con mods. Barbs tend to look better because their Cons tend to be higher, but for the sake of easy math, let's assume both have a Con of 10.
At first level, the Barb has 12 hit points and the Fighter 10. However, the Fighter has access to Second Wind, restoring an average of 6.5 HP per use. Even factoring for their hit die restoring one extra point to the Barbarian on average, the Fighter nets 5.5 effective HP more. And that assumes only using Second Wind once per day, when in reality I'd expect it to be used at least twice.
At fifth level, the Barb has 38 hit points and the Fighter 33. Again though, the Fighter has Second Wind, now adding 10.5 HP per use on average, and even if both classes use all of their hit dice, the Barbarian only gets back 5 more HP than the Fighter does - meaning that even if the Fighter only used Second Wind once it's still ahead.
Even once you get past 5th the Fighter is much better off; in theory the Barbarian's extra hit die + extra point per level takes over, but only in worlds where he's routinely leveraging every one of his hit dice and the Fighter is only using Second Wind once per day, which is almost impossible to have happen in real play.
This doesn't usually come up because thanks to Rage the Barbarian usually has more effective HP, since he's taking half damage from most attacks... but then, Hill Rune.
Of course, that isn't saying anything about subclass features or other class features; if we acknowledge that the Rune Knight is the most tanky Fighter you probably compare it to Bear Totem Barbarian and then that gets a lot more interesting. But in terms of raw hit points, Fighters actually just straight-up outclass Barbs.
Sound analysis. I hadn't considered the impact of Second Wind.
One thing to think about: all the Rune Knight rune DC's are based off Intelligence. Meaning, going straight in the class, it's pretty MAD: strength and/or dex for attack and AC, Con for HP, Int for rune saves.
Knowing that, it may be good (depending on how far you want to go in the class) to multi with artificer, specifically battlesmith or UA armorer. Those lets you use Int for weapon attacks and damage, meaning you can dump Strength and Dex completely. This requires at least a 3 level dip, but it's potent. If you go high enough in artificer, a lot of the infusions help out as well, especially the scaling weapon and armor ones. There's even a UA infusion that let's you use your Intelligence modifier inEdstead of Strength for Strength checks and saves, which combines in a fairly wonderful way with the advantage given by Giant's Might.
I've got a battlesmith/rune knight in an Eberron campaign going now, and she's tough as nails and puts out fairly significant damage as well. The big thing to think about is how to maximize your action economy. Giant's might is a bonus action, as are half the activated rune abilities, as are the smite spells in battlesmith, as is telling your pet to attack. Notably, this combo is also one of the few classes that actually has competition for its REACTION as well, considering the rune reactions will compete with Shield and Absorb Elements.
Note: Another path to get Int on attack/damage is Bladesinger Wizard, but that requires a 6 level dip instead of a 3 level dip.
EDIT: Another big boon to think about is that Enlarge/Reduce stacks with Giant's Might. Meaning you could eventually add 1d6 + 1d4 to all your attacks by Artificer 5 / Fighter 3, and be HUGE.
One thing to think about: all the Rune Knight rune DC's are based off Intelligence. Meaning, going straight in the class, it's pretty MAD: strength and/or dex for attack and AC, Con for HP, Int for rune saves.
Knowing that, it may be good (depending on how far you want to go in the class) to multi with artificer, specifically battlesmith or UA armorer. Those lets you use Int for weapon attacks and damage, meaning you can dump Strength and Dex completely. This requires at least a 3 level dip, but it's potent. If you go high enough in artificer, a lot of the infusions help out as well, especially the scaling weapon and armor ones. There's even a UA infusion that let's you use your Intelligence modifier instead of Strength for Strength checks and saves, which combines in a fairly wonderful way with the advantage given by Giant's Might.
To be fair that isn't much different than most builds. You will usually have a need for 2 ability scores to be high, followed by a fair CON score. Paladins will need STR/DEX and CHA along with CON. Rangers will want DEX/STR, WIS and CON. Clerics will want STR, WIS and CON.
Fighters, Rogues and Warlocks are both a different story, but depending upon your subclass you will need a similar outline for ability scores (Especially gish characters like Eldritch Knight). Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards also will depend upon your subclass. Con is always a must for any build to be good. However, it is always nice to only worry about 1 ability score and then have good Con.
One thing to think about: all the Rune Knight rune DC's are based off Intelligence. Meaning, going straight in the class, it's pretty MAD: strength and/or dex for attack and AC, Con for HP, Int for rune saves.
Knowing that, it may be good (depending on how far you want to go in the class) to multi with artificer, specifically battlesmith or UA armorer. Those lets you use Int for weapon attacks and damage, meaning you can dump Strength and Dex completely. This requires at least a 3 level dip, but it's potent. If you go high enough in artificer, a lot of the infusions help out as well, especially the scaling weapon and armor ones. There's even a UA infusion that let's you use your Intelligence modifier instead of Strength for Strength checks and saves, which combines in a fairly wonderful way with the advantage given by Giant's Might.
To be fair that isn't much different than most builds. You will usually have a need for 2 ability scores to be high, followed by a fair CON score. Paladins will need STR/DEX and CHA along with CON. Rangers will want DEX/STR, WIS and CON. Clerics will want STR, WIS and CON.
Fighters, Rogues and Warlocks are both a different story, but depending upon your subclass you will need a similar outline for ability scores (Especially gish characters like Eldritch Knight). Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards also will depend upon your subclass. Con is always a must for any build to be good. However, it is always nice to only worry about 1 ability score and then have good Con.
To be additionally fair, that's why multiclassing Hexblade warlock is often good for paladins, and grabbing Shillelagh is good for Rangers and Clerics. And I find lowering the amount of absolutely necessary ability scores helps increase build diversity options. If a Paladin, Ranger, or Cleric wants to have a good Int for Arcana, History or Investigation, the only way they would not be punished for that is if they were otherwise only concerned with 2 scores instead of 3-4.
Or, again, go artificer, and eventually you'll be able to use Duplicate Magic Item to get 19 in every ability score if you want anyways, hehehe.
I am playing a rune knight in my current campaign and we just hit level 9 and it is very strong but I wouldn't say OP. I really enjoy the design your class theme of the rune knight where you are given a selection of abilities to choose as you level. Honestly I wish they did every subclass in the same manner.
My build is a half orc runeknight with GWM using a great axe and he does put out alot of damage but thats what a fighter is supposed to do. Res to physical damage for 1 min 1/short rest does not step on the barbs toes. Barb gets multiple rages which also provide a damage bump, adv on all attacks, pseudo dex save prof, movement increase, etc...
I am playing a rune knight in my current campaign and we just hit level 9 and it is very strong but I wouldn't say OP. I really enjoy the design your class theme of the rune knight where you are given a selection of abilities to choose as you level. Honestly I wish they did every subclass in the same manner.
My build is a half orc runeknight with GWM using a great axe and he does put out alot of damage but thats what a fighter is supposed to do. Res to physical damage for 1 min 1/short rest does not step on the barbs toes. Barb gets multiple rages which also provide a damage bump, adv on all attacks, pseudo dex save prof, movement increase, etc...
Extra Damage, BPS resistance, and ADV on STR checks does for sure step on barbarian a lot. Thats literally all the benefits of rage. And you are right the fighter can actually get Resistance much more often than barb in the right circumstances. You just need a short rest to get the BPS back with the Hill Giant rune while the barb only gets rage 2 times per day at that point. This means if you are following the 2 short rest per day suggested in the DMG the fighter actually gets it more often than the barbarian at the same level.
I am glad you are enjoying the subclass and I hope if they do change it you get to keep the character you built but its pretty obvious they need to scale it back a fair amount for publication.
I am playing a rune knight in my current campaign and we just hit level 9 and it is very strong but I wouldn't say OP. I really enjoy the design your class theme of the rune knight where you are given a selection of abilities to choose as you level. Honestly I wish they did every subclass in the same manner.
My build is a half orc runeknight with GWM using a great axe and he does put out alot of damage but thats what a fighter is supposed to do. Res to physical damage for 1 min 1/short rest does not step on the barbs toes. Barb gets multiple rages which also provide a damage bump, adv on all attacks, pseudo dex save prof, movement increase, etc...
Extra Damage, BPS resistance, and ADV on STR checks does for sure step on barbarian a lot. Thats literally all the benefits of rage. And you are right the fighter can actually get Resistance much more often than barb in the right circumstances. You just need a short rest to get the BPS back with the Hill Giant rune while the barb only gets rage 2 times per day at that point. This means if you are following the 2 short rest per day suggested in the DMG the fighter actually gets it more often than the barbarian at the same level.
I am glad you are enjoying the subclass and I hope if they do change it you get to keep the character you built but its pretty obvious they need to scale it back a fair amount for publication.
Those bonuses are from two different abilities though, both activated on a bonus action. This takes time to set up - time in which the barbarian can get all the benefits in 1 bonus action and go to town.
I just fail to see how it's broken or how it steps on a barbarian's toes - if anything, the barb is still gonna be stronger, or at least even, simply because they still have their subclass features ON TOP of rage. A shared mechanic isn't a bad thing: see Divine Soul Sorcerer/Cleric.
Those bonuses are from two different abilities though, both activated on a bonus action. This takes time to set up - time in which the barbarian can get all the benefits in 1 bonus action and go to town.
This is correct but the fighter also gets another whole rune with two passive effects at 3rd level. They get all of this while the barbarian is just getting one thing from its subclass at 3rd level.
Overall the power balance is pretty far off
I just fail to see how it's broken or how it steps on a barbarian's toes - if anything, the barb is still gonna be stronger, or at least even, simply because they still have their subclass features ON TOP of rage. A shared mechanic isn't a bad thing: see Divine Soul Sorcerer/Cleric.
Its comparing apples to oranges if you are comparing it to barbarian as a whole....you have to compare it to other fighter sub-classes for a fair comparison and its not even close to something like Samurai that gets 3 turns of advantage per day.
Shared mechanics are OK I agree but if they are getting this plus another whole rune with advantage on 4 skill checks then that is just too much at level 3.
The only runes that give you advantage on two skill checks are Frost and Cloud. So if you want to give up what Storm or Hill gives you to get that advantage on 4 skill checks at level 3 instead of 2 or 3, that's absolutely reasonable. Advantage on skill checks also isn't overly powerful. Especially because Fighters themselves don't get proficiency in the skills in the more sought after runes. If you're single classing, you're already MAD, so advantage on, say, Arcana or Slight of Hand is useful, but it's incredibly doubtful your "leet skillz" will be competing with other classes or even other fighters who are far more SAD and get actual skill proficiencies that actually scale instead of giving non-scaling advantage.
At best, on the skill side, Rune Knight MIGHT eventually compete with Jack of All Trades once you get most the runes on, but sans actual proficiency in the skills you gain, it's merely nice, but absolutely not broken. Advantage on DC18 and DC20 checks is far less valuable than even half-proficiency. Really, the only conceivably broken rune is Storm, and that's only because 5e has so little competition for using reactions that any option that ISN'T "maybe hit one dude moving away from you" automatically becomes amazing, and that it's essentially "Portent but better and longer" makes it moreso. Lower the bonus from every reaction for a minute to "Int modifier times per long rest" or simply "Once per short" like the Cloud rune redirect, and it's TOTALLY reasonable.
ALL subclasses can do things other subclasses can't. Notably your own example, Samurai, which could get actual proficiency in Insight or three other skills, and eventually gets proficient in Wisdom SAVES on top of adding Wisdom to Persuasion checks. None of which Rune Knight can EVER do, even at level 20.The question is if they can do what another subclass can do, but so much better that there's no reason to pick the lesser one over the other. And sans this version of the Storm rune, I can't really say Rune Knight does that. It has a lot of neat things, to it but nothing like the scaling Martial die or War Magic, for example. Granted, Samurai still kind of blows, but that's Samurai's fault, not Rune Knight's, hehe.
Granted, Samurai still kind of blows, but that's Samurai's fault, not Rune Knight's, hehe.
I think that THIS is the underlying problem. Some of the available subclasses are just plain bad, which makes comparing them hard.
Samurai, Champion, Arcane Archer, Cavalier are all way less powerful than Rune Knight. Battle Master does better for damage but the passive benefits of Rune Knight actually makes it more generally more applicable and the 1 minute effects are really good for combat.
Overall its way ahead of over half the subclasses and yes I believe its because a lot of them are just bad (Arcane Archer, Samurai, and Champion) and do not have enough active effects to be fun to play IMO.
However, if you want to avoid power drift then you need to reign it in a bit. Its a bad situation and we have seen them already do it with other classes.
the new Ranger sub-classes are just straight up better than the PHB ones....as is Divine Soul Sorcerer.
They will need to really think on how to handle it because if released as is the Rune Knight is far and away better than most of the fighter subclasses and in some cases it not even close.
Granted, Samurai still kind of blows, but that's Samurai's fault, not Rune Knight's, hehe.
I think that THIS is the underlying problem. Some of the available subclasses are just plain bad, which makes comparing them hard.
Samurai, Champion, Arcane Archer, Cavalier are all way less powerful than Rune Knight. Battle Master does better for damage but the passive benefits of Rune Knight actually makes it more generally more applicable and the 1 minute effects are really good for combat.
Overall its way ahead of over half the subclasses and yes I believe its because a lot of them are just bad (Arcane Archer, Samurai, and Champion) and do not have enough active effects to be fun to play IMO.
However, if you want to avoid power drift then you need to reign it in a bit. Its a bad situation and we have seen them already do it with other classes.
the new Ranger sub-classes are just straight up better than the PHB ones....as is Divine Soul Sorcerer.
They will need to really think on how to handle it because if released as is the Rune Knight is far and away better than most of the fighter subclasses and in some cases it not even close.
So tell me - if they were to remove, say, Giant's Might, or Hill Giant Rune, would that make it more balanced?
Granted, Samurai still kind of blows, but that's Samurai's fault, not Rune Knight's, hehe.
I think that THIS is the underlying problem. Some of the available subclasses are just plain bad, which makes comparing them hard.
Samurai, Champion, Arcane Archer, Cavalier are all way less powerful than Rune Knight. Battle Master does better for damage but the passive benefits of Rune Knight actually makes it more generally more applicable and the 1 minute effects are really good for combat.
Overall its way ahead of over half the subclasses and yes I believe its because a lot of them are just bad (Arcane Archer, Samurai, and Champion) and do not have enough active effects to be fun to play IMO.
....
They will need to really think on how to handle it because if released as is the Rune Knight is far and away better than most of the fighter subclasses and in some cases it not even close.
I mean they will most likely make some sort of change to the Rune Knight, they almost always do to UA subs. But assuming they were either going to pass as is or scrap it altogether, is it really fair to penalize the Rune Knight simply because the other fighter subclasses are subpar? You can flip this whole thing on it's head and suggest that they should have balanced the AA, Samurai, and Cavalier before publishing them. The Battlemaster is one of the best melee classes in 5E ture, but other than that you have a mediocre gish in the EK. Perhaps the fighter should have another top tier subclass for players to choose from?
If we look a other classes you have a similar situation (perhaps Paladins aside).
Honestly the way I would fix it would be to remove the short rest abilities from the runes and add them in later (likely level 10). Or reduce their power in some way like making the Hill Giant a THP boost instead of full on resistance to BPS.
I mean the cloud giant ability lets you place disadvantage on a save as a reaction every round for 1 minute. A sorcerer has to spend all their SP just to do it once at the same level AND it only works on the first save of a spell they cast. The fighter can do it as a reaction when any other creature makes the check.
Its not only more poweful than other fighter abilities but that one straight up stomps on Metamagic.
The cloud giant ability could be reduced to once per short rest you can force a reroll on a save, ability check, or attack.
I like the RK. It has been a fun build for me. I do not think it is OP. If you start to think it is just look at any Wizard subclass.
I think it makes a very good grappler build with the unarmed fighting style and Tavern Brawler Feat. Dip 1 level in Rogue or pick up skill expert for expertise in Athletics and you will have no problem grappling adult dragons and storm giants and such.
Start with a Human Tavern Brawler and 17 strength. Skill Expert and 18 strength at level 4. 20 strength at level 6. You can add Hex through Fey touched or magic initiate at level 8 and now in addition to advantage on checks you can give disadvantage to the enemy.
Rune Knights are not underpowered at all, they are one of the stronger Fighter subclasses. I'd grade them a solid B overall compared to all the other classes/subs. They can be pretty versatile, but they are not huge on damage output. There aren't a lot of runes, but most are pretty awesome, they can make a significant impact and you do get them back pretty fast. I think you'll be happy with it.
I play a viking themed Rune Knight in a feywild campaign and she's absolute bonkers. In my opinion it's one of the strongest subclasses in the early levels.
The different runes all have abilities you can use outside of combat, which is nice since Fighters as a whole don't get many things to play with in that regard.
The runes themselves are quite nice as well. The Cloud rune lets you redirect a crit to someone or something else and has saved a few characters from dying in our group. She's even redirected attacks at her own familiar (Magic Initiate) to protect herself. The Frost rune is great if you decide to grapple, which you'll have advantage on if you've grown large with Giant Might. The Fire rune is a great way to harass and shut down spellcasters and have the rest of the group give them hell. The Hill rune is decent if you don't want to multiclass into Barbarian, and the Storm Rune is one of the most powerful mechanics in the game (and you get it at level 7!)
Runic Shield also lets you cancel out crits.
It's a great class to play if you want to be more of a tank type fighter because you have protection options outside of simply being a damage sponge.
After level 7 though, the class falls off in my opinion unless you take it to level 15. The 10th and 18th level subclass abilities are pretty subpar compared to what else you can do with those levels, unless you're leveling because you want the standard fighter abilities that come with them.
So far in the campaign she's managed to spike the drink of another player to screw with his charisma during a social interaction with her Sleight of Hand checks, grabbed a Pegasus out of the air and slammed it into the ground along with the rider, and suplexed a vampire queen through her own banquet table. She's also saved many party members by redirecting and cancelling out attacks.
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At least regarding the hit die bit: Fighters actually have more average HP than a Barbarian, assuming equal con mods. Barbs tend to look better because their Cons tend to be higher, but for the sake of easy math, let's assume both have a Con of 10.
At first level, the Barb has 12 hit points and the Fighter 10. However, the Fighter has access to Second Wind, restoring an average of 6.5 HP per use. Even factoring for their hit die restoring one extra point to the Barbarian on average, the Fighter nets 5.5 effective HP more. And that assumes only using Second Wind once per day, when in reality I'd expect it to be used at least twice.
At fifth level, the Barb has 38 hit points and the Fighter 33. Again though, the Fighter has Second Wind, now adding 10.5 HP per use on average, and even if both classes use all of their hit dice, the Barbarian only gets back 5 more HP than the Fighter does - meaning that even if the Fighter only used Second Wind once it's still ahead.
Even once you get past 5th the Fighter is much better off; in theory the Barbarian's extra hit die + extra point per level takes over, but only in worlds where he's routinely leveraging every one of his hit dice and the Fighter is only using Second Wind once per day, which is almost impossible to have happen in real play.
This doesn't usually come up because thanks to Rage the Barbarian usually has more effective HP, since he's taking half damage from most attacks... but then, Hill Rune.
Of course, that isn't saying anything about subclass features or other class features; if we acknowledge that the Rune Knight is the most tanky Fighter you probably compare it to Bear Totem Barbarian and then that gets a lot more interesting. But in terms of raw hit points, Fighters actually just straight-up outclass Barbs.
Sound analysis. I hadn't considered the impact of Second Wind.
One thing to think about: all the Rune Knight rune DC's are based off Intelligence. Meaning, going straight in the class, it's pretty MAD: strength and/or dex for attack and AC, Con for HP, Int for rune saves.
Knowing that, it may be good (depending on how far you want to go in the class) to multi with artificer, specifically battlesmith or UA armorer. Those lets you use Int for weapon attacks and damage, meaning you can dump Strength and Dex completely. This requires at least a 3 level dip, but it's potent. If you go high enough in artificer, a lot of the infusions help out as well, especially the scaling weapon and armor ones. There's even a UA infusion that let's you use your Intelligence modifier inEdstead of Strength for Strength checks and saves, which combines in a fairly wonderful way with the advantage given by Giant's Might.
I've got a battlesmith/rune knight in an Eberron campaign going now, and she's tough as nails and puts out fairly significant damage as well. The big thing to think about is how to maximize your action economy. Giant's might is a bonus action, as are half the activated rune abilities, as are the smite spells in battlesmith, as is telling your pet to attack. Notably, this combo is also one of the few classes that actually has competition for its REACTION as well, considering the rune reactions will compete with Shield and Absorb Elements.
Note: Another path to get Int on attack/damage is Bladesinger Wizard, but that requires a 6 level dip instead of a 3 level dip.
EDIT: Another big boon to think about is that Enlarge/Reduce stacks with Giant's Might. Meaning you could eventually add 1d6 + 1d4 to all your attacks by Artificer 5 / Fighter 3, and be HUGE.
To be fair that isn't much different than most builds. You will usually have a need for 2 ability scores to be high, followed by a fair CON score.
Paladins will need STR/DEX and CHA along with CON.
Rangers will want DEX/STR, WIS and CON.
Clerics will want STR, WIS and CON.
Fighters, Rogues and Warlocks are both a different story, but depending upon your subclass you will need a similar outline for ability scores (Especially gish characters like Eldritch Knight). Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards also will depend upon your subclass. Con is always a must for any build to be good. However, it is always nice to only worry about 1 ability score and then have good Con.
To be additionally fair, that's why multiclassing Hexblade warlock is often good for paladins, and grabbing Shillelagh is good for Rangers and Clerics. And I find lowering the amount of absolutely necessary ability scores helps increase build diversity options. If a Paladin, Ranger, or Cleric wants to have a good Int for Arcana, History or Investigation, the only way they would not be punished for that is if they were otherwise only concerned with 2 scores instead of 3-4.
Or, again, go artificer, and eventually you'll be able to use Duplicate Magic Item to get 19 in every ability score if you want anyways, hehehe.
There are only two saves from the runes though - so you can get by with low INT for a while.
I am playing a rune knight in my current campaign and we just hit level 9 and it is very strong but I wouldn't say OP. I really enjoy the design your class theme of the rune knight where you are given a selection of abilities to choose as you level. Honestly I wish they did every subclass in the same manner.
My build is a half orc runeknight with GWM using a great axe and he does put out alot of damage but thats what a fighter is supposed to do. Res to physical damage for 1 min 1/short rest does not step on the barbs toes. Barb gets multiple rages which also provide a damage bump, adv on all attacks, pseudo dex save prof, movement increase, etc...
Extra Damage, BPS resistance, and ADV on STR checks does for sure step on barbarian a lot. Thats literally all the benefits of rage. And you are right the fighter can actually get Resistance much more often than barb in the right circumstances. You just need a short rest to get the BPS back with the Hill Giant rune while the barb only gets rage 2 times per day at that point. This means if you are following the 2 short rest per day suggested in the DMG the fighter actually gets it more often than the barbarian at the same level.
I am glad you are enjoying the subclass and I hope if they do change it you get to keep the character you built but its pretty obvious they need to scale it back a fair amount for publication.
Those bonuses are from two different abilities though, both activated on a bonus action. This takes time to set up - time in which the barbarian can get all the benefits in 1 bonus action and go to town.
I just fail to see how it's broken or how it steps on a barbarian's toes - if anything, the barb is still gonna be stronger, or at least even, simply because they still have their subclass features ON TOP of rage. A shared mechanic isn't a bad thing: see Divine Soul Sorcerer/Cleric.
This is correct but the fighter also gets another whole rune with two passive effects at 3rd level. They get all of this while the barbarian is just getting one thing from its subclass at 3rd level.
Overall the power balance is pretty far off
Its comparing apples to oranges if you are comparing it to barbarian as a whole....you have to compare it to other fighter sub-classes for a fair comparison and its not even close to something like Samurai that gets 3 turns of advantage per day.
Shared mechanics are OK I agree but if they are getting this plus another whole rune with advantage on 4 skill checks then that is just too much at level 3.
The only runes that give you advantage on two skill checks are Frost and Cloud. So if you want to give up what Storm or Hill gives you to get that advantage on 4 skill checks at level 3 instead of 2 or 3, that's absolutely reasonable. Advantage on skill checks also isn't overly powerful. Especially because Fighters themselves don't get proficiency in the skills in the more sought after runes. If you're single classing, you're already MAD, so advantage on, say, Arcana or Slight of Hand is useful, but it's incredibly doubtful your "leet skillz" will be competing with other classes or even other fighters who are far more SAD and get actual skill proficiencies that actually scale instead of giving non-scaling advantage.
At best, on the skill side, Rune Knight MIGHT eventually compete with Jack of All Trades once you get most the runes on, but sans actual proficiency in the skills you gain, it's merely nice, but absolutely not broken. Advantage on DC18 and DC20 checks is far less valuable than even half-proficiency. Really, the only conceivably broken rune is Storm, and that's only because 5e has so little competition for using reactions that any option that ISN'T "maybe hit one dude moving away from you" automatically becomes amazing, and that it's essentially "Portent but better and longer" makes it moreso. Lower the bonus from every reaction for a minute to "Int modifier times per long rest" or simply "Once per short" like the Cloud rune redirect, and it's TOTALLY reasonable.
ALL subclasses can do things other subclasses can't. Notably your own example, Samurai, which could get actual proficiency in Insight or three other skills, and eventually gets proficient in Wisdom SAVES on top of adding Wisdom to Persuasion checks. None of which Rune Knight can EVER do, even at level 20.The question is if they can do what another subclass can do, but so much better that there's no reason to pick the lesser one over the other. And sans this version of the Storm rune, I can't really say Rune Knight does that. It has a lot of neat things, to it but nothing like the scaling Martial die or War Magic, for example. Granted, Samurai still kind of blows, but that's Samurai's fault, not Rune Knight's, hehe.
I think that THIS is the underlying problem. Some of the available subclasses are just plain bad, which makes comparing them hard.
Samurai, Champion, Arcane Archer, Cavalier are all way less powerful than Rune Knight. Battle Master does better for damage but the passive benefits of Rune Knight actually makes it more generally more applicable and the 1 minute effects are really good for combat.
Overall its way ahead of over half the subclasses and yes I believe its because a lot of them are just bad (Arcane Archer, Samurai, and Champion) and do not have enough active effects to be fun to play IMO.
However, if you want to avoid power drift then you need to reign it in a bit. Its a bad situation and we have seen them already do it with other classes.
the new Ranger sub-classes are just straight up better than the PHB ones....as is Divine Soul Sorcerer.
They will need to really think on how to handle it because if released as is the Rune Knight is far and away better than most of the fighter subclasses and in some cases it not even close.
So tell me - if they were to remove, say, Giant's Might, or Hill Giant Rune, would that make it more balanced?
I mean they will most likely make some sort of change to the Rune Knight, they almost always do to UA subs. But assuming they were either going to pass as is or scrap it altogether, is it really fair to penalize the Rune Knight simply because the other fighter subclasses are subpar? You can flip this whole thing on it's head and suggest that they should have balanced the AA, Samurai, and Cavalier before publishing them. The Battlemaster is one of the best melee classes in 5E ture, but other than that you have a mediocre gish in the EK. Perhaps the fighter should have another top tier subclass for players to choose from?
If we look a other classes you have a similar situation (perhaps Paladins aside).
Honestly the way I would fix it would be to remove the short rest abilities from the runes and add them in later (likely level 10). Or reduce their power in some way like making the Hill Giant a THP boost instead of full on resistance to BPS.
I mean the cloud giant ability lets you place disadvantage on a save as a reaction every round for 1 minute. A sorcerer has to spend all their SP just to do it once at the same level AND it only works on the first save of a spell they cast. The fighter can do it as a reaction when any other creature makes the check.
Its not only more poweful than other fighter abilities but that one straight up stomps on Metamagic.
The cloud giant ability could be reduced to once per short rest you can force a reroll on a save, ability check, or attack.
I adjusted the Rune Knight myself and changed the cloud giant ability to only affect ability checks and saves - I feel like that's more comfortable.
I like the RK. It has been a fun build for me. I do not think it is OP. If you start to think it is just look at any Wizard subclass.
I think it makes a very good grappler build with the unarmed fighting style and Tavern Brawler Feat. Dip 1 level in Rogue or pick up skill expert for expertise in Athletics and you will have no problem grappling adult dragons and storm giants and such.
Start with a Human Tavern Brawler and 17 strength. Skill Expert and 18 strength at level 4. 20 strength at level 6. You can add Hex through Fey touched or magic initiate at level 8 and now in addition to advantage on checks you can give disadvantage to the enemy.
Rune Knights are not underpowered at all, they are one of the stronger Fighter subclasses. I'd grade them a solid B overall compared to all the other classes/subs. They can be pretty versatile, but they are not huge on damage output. There aren't a lot of runes, but most are pretty awesome, they can make a significant impact and you do get them back pretty fast. I think you'll be happy with it.
I play a viking themed Rune Knight in a feywild campaign and she's absolute bonkers. In my opinion it's one of the strongest subclasses in the early levels.
The different runes all have abilities you can use outside of combat, which is nice since Fighters as a whole don't get many things to play with in that regard.
The runes themselves are quite nice as well. The Cloud rune lets you redirect a crit to someone or something else and has saved a few characters from dying in our group. She's even redirected attacks at her own familiar (Magic Initiate) to protect herself. The Frost rune is great if you decide to grapple, which you'll have advantage on if you've grown large with Giant Might. The Fire rune is a great way to harass and shut down spellcasters and have the rest of the group give them hell. The Hill rune is decent if you don't want to multiclass into Barbarian, and the Storm Rune is one of the most powerful mechanics in the game (and you get it at level 7!)
Runic Shield also lets you cancel out crits.
It's a great class to play if you want to be more of a tank type fighter because you have protection options outside of simply being a damage sponge.
After level 7 though, the class falls off in my opinion unless you take it to level 15. The 10th and 18th level subclass abilities are pretty subpar compared to what else you can do with those levels, unless you're leveling because you want the standard fighter abilities that come with them.
So far in the campaign she's managed to spike the drink of another player to screw with his charisma during a social interaction with her Sleight of Hand checks, grabbed a Pegasus out of the air and slammed it into the ground along with the rider, and suplexed a vampire queen through her own banquet table. She's also saved many party members by redirecting and cancelling out attacks.