True, but when making an attack through the echo, you would use your own strength score. Does the knight still exist while attacking through the echo, and if so, is there any reason the echo can't initiate a grapple, or push the knight (using the knight's attack actions)?
*edit* I realized this would be entirely unnecessary, since the knight could use 15 feet of movement to swap positions with the echo. Allowing the knight to escape grapples or "jump" 30-60 feet to a location
True, but when making an attack through the echo, you would use your own strength score. Does the knight still exist while attacking through the echo, and if so, is there any reason the echo can't initiate a grapple, or push the knight (using the knight's attack actions)?
*edit* I realized this would be entirely unnecessary, since the knight could use 15 feet of movement to swap positions with the echo. Allowing the knight to escape grapples or "jump" 30-60 feet to a location
there is no reason you cannot initiate a grapple from the echo, but without swapping TO the echo, the grapple immediately ends because you are no longer in the echo's space after the attack, thus out of range, which forcibly ends the grapple.
but yes, you can still shove if you didn't wanna swap without issue.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
True, but when making an attack through the echo, you would use your own strength score. Does the knight still exist while attacking through the echo, and if so, is there any reason the echo can't initiate a grapple, or push the knight (using the knight's attack actions)?
*edit* I realized this would be entirely unnecessary, since the knight could use 15 feet of movement to swap positions with the echo. Allowing the knight to escape grapples or "jump" 30-60 feet to a location
there is no reason you cannot initiate a grapple from the echo, but without swapping TO the echo, the grapple immediately ends because you are no longer in the echo's space after the attack, thus out of range, which forcibly ends the grapple.
but yes, you can still shove if you didn't wanna swap without issue.
Your character was never in the echo's space, to begin with. The echo is merely an object (using game terminology) from which the fighter can attack from. Yes, grappling and shoving are special attacks and could be initiated from the echo's space. But grappling specifically requires the target to be within your reach, not the echo's. And the echo does not extend your character's reach. Technically, the echo doesn't even have a reach.
Theoretically, if you are within 5 feet of your echo, you could grapple yourself from the echo's square. Since you are within your own reach, the grapple doesn't immediately break. However, you couldn't move yourself with that grapple by commanding the echo to move, as the echo is not the one grappling you. You are grappling yourself, which is something that any character can technically do. It has zero mechanical impact other than setting your own speed to 0 and using up one of your free hands.
I suppose there is a really cheesy, niche situation where you grapple yourself to avoid being forced to move thanks to dissonant whispers. I'm not sure I'd let that fly as a DM though.
While a DM could impose that additional rule, that isn't enforced by the mechanics of the subclass. You can attack yourself. Therefore, you could attack yourself from your echo's location. You can also make attacks against your own echo.
True, but when making an attack through the echo, you would use your own strength score. Does the knight still exist while attacking through the echo, and if so, is there any reason the echo can't initiate a grapple, or push the knight (using the knight's attack actions)?
*edit* I realized this would be entirely unnecessary, since the knight could use 15 feet of movement to swap positions with the echo. Allowing the knight to escape grapples or "jump" 30-60 feet to a location
Actually, this raises an important question. I do not believe you can use swap to change positions if you are being grappled. You need to "spend" 15ft of movement to swap and your movement while grappled is 0. Correct?
True, but when making an attack through the echo, you would use your own strength score. Does the knight still exist while attacking through the echo, and if so, is there any reason the echo can't initiate a grapple, or push the knight (using the knight's attack actions)?
*edit* I realized this would be entirely unnecessary, since the knight could use 15 feet of movement to swap positions with the echo. Allowing the knight to escape grapples or "jump" 30-60 feet to a location
Actually, this raises an important question. I do not believe you can use swap to change positions if you are being grappled. You need to "spend" 15ft of movement to swap and your movement while grappled is 0. Correct?
True, but when making an attack through the echo, you would use your own strength score. Does the knight still exist while attacking through the echo, and if so, is there any reason the echo can't initiate a grapple, or push the knight (using the knight's attack actions)?
*edit* I realized this would be entirely unnecessary, since the knight could use 15 feet of movement to swap positions with the echo. Allowing the knight to escape grapples or "jump" 30-60 feet to a location
Actually, this raises an important question. I do not believe you can use swap to change positions if you are being grappled. You need to "spend" 15ft of movement to swap and your movement while grappled is 0. Correct?
This is true. If your speed is reduced to zero then there's no swapping with your echo.
Yes, but only for the main Psychic Blade attack. The bonus action attack can't come from your echo's position and must come from your position.
Also, as a technicality, the player is still the one manifesting the blade, even when the attack is made from the Echo's space. So the player still needs an empty hand, and if you attribute any visual effects to the manifestation of the blade, those effects would still happen with the player.
Horse or Mount - Can a Echo be mounted to match a mounted player, or can it ride as luggage behind the player, avoid the 30' limit
urk...just a imagine a Half Orc Fighter and echo Double riding
As covered in the FAQ, RAW, you can climb on top of the echo. You can't use the mounted combat rules with it, as it's not a creature, but you could treat it as a magical surfboard without much inaccuracy.
Because it occupies its space, again, as covered in the FAQ, RAW, you can tie a rope to it, then tie a rope to something else, and then things get weird. It has no rules for resisting movement, so you can tug it along, but it does occupy its space and has rules for being moved by the knight, so when the knight wills it, it can tug back, or do all of the tugging (you can use it to tug a boat, for example, or a wagon). In fact, if you really just want to move quickly and for some reason are desperate not to produce a new one where you're going, you can stuff it in a bag of holding, go where you're going, and then pull it back out. It hasn't got any weight, although it does have volume (how much volume appears to be 125 cubic feet).
Horse or Mount - Can a Echo be mounted to match a mounted player, or can it ride as luggage behind the player, avoid the 30' limit
urk...just a imagine a Half Orc Fighter and echo Double riding
As covered in the FAQ, RAW, you can climb on top of the echo. You can't use the mounted combat rules with it, as it's not a creature, but you could treat it as a magical surfboard without much inaccuracy.
Because it occupies its space, again, as covered in the FAQ, RAW, you can tie a rope to it, then tie a rope to something else, and then things get weird. It has no rules for resisting movement, so you can tug it along, but it does occupy its space and has rules for being moved by the knight, so when the knight wills it, it can tug back, or do all of the tugging (you can use it to tug a boat, for example, or a wagon). In fact, if you really just want to move quickly and for some reason are desperate not to produce a new one where you're going, you can stuff it in a bag of holding, go where you're going, and then pull it back out. It hasn't got any weight, although it does have volume (how much volume appears to be 125 cubic feet).
No, you really can't do all that. It's only an "object" because it's not a "creature", but it's really just an image. It's no different than creating an illusory barrel with minor illusion, and you can't interact with those.
While I do think riding on the echo gets into iffy territory, it definitely has a degree of tangibility, even when not being used to make an attack. It has an AC and occupies its space. It isn't just an illusion.
Edit: In fact, that very tangibility is why you should NOT be able to ride the echo directly. You can't end any part of your move on an occupied space, so you can't end you move by climbing onto an holding the echo. Mounting rules and Grappling rules won't work either. You'd have to move into the same vague rope-tugging territory.
While I do think riding on the echo gets into iffy territory, it definitely has a degree of tangibility, even when not being used to make an attack. It has an AC and occupies its space. It isn't just an illusion.
Edit: In fact, that very tangibility is why you should NOT be able to ride the echo directly. You can't end any part of your move on an occupied space, so you can't end you move by climbing onto an holding the echo. Mounting rules and Grappling rules won't work either. You'd have to move into the same vague rope-tugging territory.
There is an optional rule for climbing atop larger creatures, but they count as difficult terrain and must be larger than you are. Even if you invoke that rule, the echo isn't viable.
What I find the most interesting is people insisting the echo can move vertically and float in the air. It's an image of the knight themself, so it can't do anything the knight can't already do. And if it occupies space, preventing movement, then it has to have mass. This means gravity affects it and any attempt at vertical movement would result in fall damage if it couldn't stay aloft.
But the FAQ is unofficial for a reason. It gets a lot right, but it doesn't always use the correct methodology.
While I do think riding on the echo gets into iffy territory, it definitely has a degree of tangibility, even when not being used to make an attack. It has an AC and occupies its space. It isn't just an illusion.
Edit: In fact, that very tangibility is why you should NOT be able to ride the echo directly. You can't end any part of your move on an occupied space, so you can't end you move by climbing onto an holding the echo. Mounting rules and Grappling rules won't work either. You'd have to move into the same vague rope-tugging territory.
There is an optional rule for climbing atop larger creatures, but they count as difficult terrain and must be larger than you are. Even if you invoke that rule, the echo isn't viable.
What I find the most interesting is people insisting the echo can move vertically and float in the air. It's an image of the knight themself, so it can't do anything the knight can't already do. And if it occupies space, preventing movement, then it has to have mass. This means gravity affects it and any attempt at vertical movement would result in fall damage if it couldn't stay aloft.
But the FAQ is unofficial for a reason. It gets a lot right, but it doesn't always use the correct methodology.
RAW, the Knight can move the Echo in any direction. This includes vertical movement, which has been cleared up by devs. "It hangs out wherever you put it" was close to the actual statement.
I've noticed that a big hurdle people are having with the subclass is trying to figure out the "science" of it, for lack of a better term. Getting hung up on whether or not the echo has mass or weight or substance, I feel, is an unnecessary hole to dig yourself into. I would recommend just looking at the rules presented for the ability and deriving any fringe rulings from those, referencing other RAW as appropriate. The rules that have been laid out are what they are so they can interact with other rules in a specific way. Granted, this subclass is in pretty strong need of a rewrite concerning a lot of that but you'll only make it harder for yourself and anyone else you're hoping to help understand the rules by getting bogged down with mechanics that aren't recognized by the 5e game system.
Edit: I realize that this type of approach helps some people grasp the rules better but I believe this sort of thing is what leads to weird, game-breaky issues like "can the Echo be ridden like a hoverboard?" and other concepts that just about disregard the RAI.
You're basing that entirely on the word of Dan Dillon. I'm familiar with the tweet, I love his work, but it's ridiculous. The echo is your character pulled from an alternate timeline. It represents other possibilities at that moment. If your echo knight can't fly or otherwise hover in the air, then there's no reasonable way for your time-displaced duplicate to do the same. After all, it doesn't have anything you don't.
You're basing that entirely on the word of Dan Dillon. I'm familiar with the tweet, I love his work, but it's ridiculous. The echo is your character pulled from an alternate timeline. It represents other possibilities at that moment. If your echo knight can't fly or otherwise hover in the air, then there's no reasonable way for your time-displaced duplicate to do the same. After all, it doesn't have anything you don't.
Dont think it matters who made the statement since it agrees with the consensus that the echo can be moved vertically. That being said, you're obviously free to rule it however you like at your table. I also believe its supported by the RAI because if they intended for the Echo to stay grounded, I don't think they would have included the phrase "any direction" as normal movement doesn't usually get that distinction. IMO it also fits with the theme of the 30' melee range they are upholding with the subclass.
But again, each DM and each table is different.
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True, but when making an attack through the echo, you would use your own strength score. Does the knight still exist while attacking through the echo, and if so, is there any reason the echo can't initiate a grapple, or push the knight (using the knight's attack actions)?
*edit* I realized this would be entirely unnecessary, since the knight could use 15 feet of movement to swap positions with the echo. Allowing the knight to escape grapples or "jump" 30-60 feet to a location
there is no reason you cannot initiate a grapple from the echo, but without swapping TO the echo, the grapple immediately ends because you are no longer in the echo's space after the attack, thus out of range, which forcibly ends the grapple.
but yes, you can still shove if you didn't wanna swap without issue.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Your character was never in the echo's space, to begin with. The echo is merely an object (using game terminology) from which the fighter can attack from. Yes, grappling and shoving are special attacks and could be initiated from the echo's space. But grappling specifically requires the target to be within your reach, not the echo's. And the echo does not extend your character's reach. Technically, the echo doesn't even have a reach.
It's a weird sort of interaction, I'll admit.
Theoretically, if you are within 5 feet of your echo, you could grapple yourself from the echo's square. Since you are within your own reach, the grapple doesn't immediately break. However, you couldn't move yourself with that grapple by commanding the echo to move, as the echo is not the one grappling you. You are grappling yourself, which is something that any character can technically do. It has zero mechanical impact other than setting your own speed to 0 and using up one of your free hands.
I suppose there is a really cheesy, niche situation where you grapple yourself to avoid being forced to move thanks to dissonant whispers. I'm not sure I'd let that fly as a DM though.
The echo represents the possibilities of an alternate timeline; if only just barely. Interacting with yourself is a strict no-no.
While a DM could impose that additional rule, that isn't enforced by the mechanics of the subclass. You can attack yourself. Therefore, you could attack yourself from your echo's location. You can also make attacks against your own echo.
Actually, this raises an important question. I do not believe you can use swap to change positions if you are being grappled. You need to "spend" 15ft of movement to swap and your movement while grappled is 0. Correct?
yes correct.
This is true. If your speed is reduced to zero then there's no swapping with your echo.
Ok this is weird, but if an Echo Knight is multiclassing with a soulknife rogue, can their echo conjure and use psychic blades?
Yes, but only for the main Psychic Blade attack. The bonus action attack can't come from your echo's position and must come from your position.
Also, as a technicality, the player is still the one manifesting the blade, even when the attack is made from the Echo's space. So the player still needs an empty hand, and if you attribute any visual effects to the manifestation of the blade, those effects would still happen with the player.
Question Movement - Mounted
Horse or Mount - Can a Echo be mounted to match a mounted player, or can it ride as luggage behind the player, avoid the 30' limit
urk...just a imagine a Half Orc Fighter and echo Double riding
As covered in the FAQ, RAW, you can climb on top of the echo. You can't use the mounted combat rules with it, as it's not a creature, but you could treat it as a magical surfboard without much inaccuracy.
Because it occupies its space, again, as covered in the FAQ, RAW, you can tie a rope to it, then tie a rope to something else, and then things get weird. It has no rules for resisting movement, so you can tug it along, but it does occupy its space and has rules for being moved by the knight, so when the knight wills it, it can tug back, or do all of the tugging (you can use it to tug a boat, for example, or a wagon). In fact, if you really just want to move quickly and for some reason are desperate not to produce a new one where you're going, you can stuff it in a bag of holding, go where you're going, and then pull it back out. It hasn't got any weight, although it does have volume (how much volume appears to be 125 cubic feet).
I think if you put it in a bag of holding it would count as more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, and disapate
No, you really can't do all that. It's only an "object" because it's not a "creature", but it's really just an image. It's no different than creating an illusory barrel with minor illusion, and you can't interact with those.
While I do think riding on the echo gets into iffy territory, it definitely has a degree of tangibility, even when not being used to make an attack. It has an AC and occupies its space. It isn't just an illusion.
Edit: In fact, that very tangibility is why you should NOT be able to ride the echo directly. You can't end any part of your move on an occupied space, so you can't end you move by climbing onto an holding the echo. Mounting rules and Grappling rules won't work either. You'd have to move into the same vague rope-tugging territory.
There is an optional rule for climbing atop larger creatures, but they count as difficult terrain and must be larger than you are. Even if you invoke that rule, the echo isn't viable.
What I find the most interesting is people insisting the echo can move vertically and float in the air. It's an image of the knight themself, so it can't do anything the knight can't already do. And if it occupies space, preventing movement, then it has to have mass. This means gravity affects it and any attempt at vertical movement would result in fall damage if it couldn't stay aloft.
But the FAQ is unofficial for a reason. It gets a lot right, but it doesn't always use the correct methodology.
RAW, the Knight can move the Echo in any direction. This includes vertical movement, which has been cleared up by devs. "It hangs out wherever you put it" was close to the actual statement.
I've noticed that a big hurdle people are having with the subclass is trying to figure out the "science" of it, for lack of a better term. Getting hung up on whether or not the echo has mass or weight or substance, I feel, is an unnecessary hole to dig yourself into. I would recommend just looking at the rules presented for the ability and deriving any fringe rulings from those, referencing other RAW as appropriate. The rules that have been laid out are what they are so they can interact with other rules in a specific way. Granted, this subclass is in pretty strong need of a rewrite concerning a lot of that but you'll only make it harder for yourself and anyone else you're hoping to help understand the rules by getting bogged down with mechanics that aren't recognized by the 5e game system.
Edit: I realize that this type of approach helps some people grasp the rules better but I believe this sort of thing is what leads to weird, game-breaky issues like "can the Echo be ridden like a hoverboard?" and other concepts that just about disregard the RAI.
You're basing that entirely on the word of Dan Dillon. I'm familiar with the tweet, I love his work, but it's ridiculous. The echo is your character pulled from an alternate timeline. It represents other possibilities at that moment. If your echo knight can't fly or otherwise hover in the air, then there's no reasonable way for your time-displaced duplicate to do the same. After all, it doesn't have anything you don't.
Dont think it matters who made the statement since it agrees with the consensus that the echo can be moved vertically. That being said, you're obviously free to rule it however you like at your table. I also believe its supported by the RAI because if they intended for the Echo to stay grounded, I don't think they would have included the phrase "any direction" as normal movement doesn't usually get that distinction. IMO it also fits with the theme of the 30' melee range they are upholding with the subclass.
But again, each DM and each table is different.