This thread is massive. I read some of it. I am letting a character in one of my games respec as an Echo Knight, which is largely my idea because he is not very involved with his Champion and said he wanted to rebuild, but he never has the time. For now, I do have the time, so I rebuilt his character from the ground up and went Echo. I have never had an Echo Knight in the game and I hope he can have some fun with it. (He will still have the old character if he doesn't like it, I just wanted to play around with the respec.)
From what I have read, and I am looking for input in this regard, I am going with the idea that the echo, because it has 1 hp and occupies space, is semi-tangible. I'm calling it "toad tangible." By this, I mean that the echo is a quasi-real, translucent, alternate-dimension version of the character, but as the 1 hp indicates, not particularly hardy. If I want to tie a rope around a toad and let it hop off with the rope, it can do that. But if the toad manages to jump several jumps up to a balcony, it can't hold the rope for people to climb up, because it's a toad. It will let go of the rope or it will be squished against the balcony as someone tries to climb using the toad as an anchor. Likewise, the echo could take the rope up to the balcony like an unseen servant, which is probably a fair comparison since the unseen servant is also quasi-real and has 1 hp and the ability to have limited interaction with the environment. Once on the balcony, the echo cannot serve as an anchor, no more than the servant or the toad. But the Echo Knight can then swap places with the echo and serve as the anchor themselves, which I think works just fine.
If I am going with the idea that the echo occupies its own space as a corporeal form, but is also a rather fragile form, like a toad, am I painting myself into a corner in a way I haven't foreseen?
I should add that I know the echo is not toad-sized or point-in-space-sized. I presume it is the same size and dimensions as the character it echoes. I am using the "toad" idea as a way to describe the relative fragility of the echo for such things as using it as an anchor, climbing on it, or trying to grapple with it, all of which would end in the death of the toad or, hence the analogy, the dissipation of the echo.
Can someone pass through the toad’s square? Can the toad be pushed? I think you can make any idea work, but they will likely deviate from the RAW. That said, the raw seems full of contradictions, so I’d say, solve for the biggest problems and don’t worry too much about the rest. If you rule an echo can’t block a space, that is cool too.
Thank you. The toad is not a toad, of course, as noted. That's a way to describe the echo's fragility. The echo looks as described -- a gray, translucent image of the character.
The echo still occupies its own space, as described. Standard rules apply for entering and threatening, as far as I can tell. I'm really not trying to deviate from RAW here...but from what I can see, ideas like "Can the echo be an anchor" are not universally agreed upon. As a "toad," it can be tangible enough to, say, move with a rope attached, but any force applied to the rope would break the image (which has 1 hp).
"That said, the raw seems full of contradictions" Exactly, yes.
The toad is an analogy, so there is no toad, and it is not a creature. ;) The echo is still an image and it still looks like the character in translucent gray.
Hey, I am playing a human echo knight, and I was wondering if anyone has good magic items that I could use. (Btw, she has a lot of connections to fire.)
Would the feat “Gift of the Gem Dragon” also count for the echo?
no, because the echo is not you.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
If I want to deal as much damage as possible in one turn, which build would be more optimal? Lv 18 Echo Knight/ Lv 2 Barbarian( so I can get Rage and Reckless Attack) or Lv 20 Echo Knight
If I want to deal as much damage as possible in one turn, which build would be more optimal? Lv 18 Echo Knight/ Lv 2 Barbarian( so I can get Rage and Reckless Attack) or Lv 20 Echo Knight
Maximum, the barbarian build because of the increased chance of criticals. Optimal, the straight fighter because of that additional extra attack that comes with level 20.
Maximum takes into account the possible damage in a single round of a single encounter and assumes everything hits, triggering every conditional factor. Optimal assumes average damage across multiple rounds across multiple encounters and assumes hits are distributed across the chance range.
If I want to deal as much damage as possible in one turn, which build would be more optimal? Lv 18 Echo Knight/ Lv 2 Barbarian( so I can get Rage and Reckless Attack) or Lv 20 Echo Knight
Maximum, the barbarian build because of the increased chance of criticals. Optimal, the straight fighter because of that additional extra attack that comes with level 20.
Maximum takes into account the possible damage in a single round of a single encounter and assumes everything hits, triggering every conditional factor. Optimal assumes average damage across multiple rounds across multiple encounters and assumes hits are distributed across the chance range.
Since Reckless Attack give me advantage every turn, is it a good idea to also take the Piercer feat, if I am a lance user?
How would it work if example the creature being hit by the echo had an ability that would damage the source of the damage or in other case reflect damage back. Would this go to the echo or the knight?
How would it work if example the creature being hit by the echo had an ability that would damage the source of the damage or in other case reflect damage back. Would this go to the echo or the knight?
Regarding the Echo using a rope...it is an object. You can tie a rope to an object. This object can move. The rope could have a grappling hook on it. Once the echo is dismissed. The rope with the hook will still be there. It could, potentially, hook onto something.
All the said, the player can swap places with the echo and tie off a rope. 60 feet distant from the player's starting position. 30 feet in front. The echo moves 30 feet. They swap. The player still has their movement minus 15 feet.
I know DMs that hate the Echo Knight. They don't hate mages who are incredibly powerful. They need to get over themselves.
We nerf the EK by denying it the 1,000 ft teleport option. Just kill it. One DM allows it once per long rest.
I don't have a problem with DMs not allowing certain races (flying), feats (lucky), especially at certain levels. What I don't get is the emotion. Childish reactions irritate me. So does inconsistency. Want to nerf something? Nerf magic users...
Regarding the Echo using a rope...it is an object. You can tie a rope to an object. This object can move. The rope could have a grappling hook on it. Once the echo is dismissed. The rope with the hook will still be there. It could, potentially, hook onto something.
All the said, the player can swap places with the echo and tie off a rope. 60 feet distant from the player's starting position. 30 feet in front. The echo moves 30 feet. They swap. The player still has their movement minus 15 feet.
I can see a few problems with this.
First, people only say it's an object because Crawford says it's an object. He also says everything is either a creature or an object, but this isn't laid out in the rules anywhere.
Second, because of the above dichotomy, intangible illusions are objects. You cannot use "object" as the defining descriptor for whether you can tie a rope around "magical, translucent, gray image".
Hi, I recently got the Hammer of Runic Focus with my Echo Knight. If I stay within the circle but my Echo is outside, attacking an enemy also outside, would I still get the +3 when I attack from my Echos position? If I get everything correct it should work: "While you’re inside that area" is the condition of the Hammer and I wouldn't leave the area when attacking through my echo, since my character remains there physically, only the attack is transferred through the "portal" like it's stated in the FAQ. Is this correct?
You are still making the attack through the echo, so as long as you stay within the rune that gives +3 the attacks are the same when coming from the echo. The echo is not a creature in itself and is not affected by any condition, positive or negative.
This thread is massive. I read some of it. I am letting a character in one of my games respec as an Echo Knight, which is largely my idea because he is not very involved with his Champion and said he wanted to rebuild, but he never has the time. For now, I do have the time, so I rebuilt his character from the ground up and went Echo. I have never had an Echo Knight in the game and I hope he can have some fun with it. (He will still have the old character if he doesn't like it, I just wanted to play around with the respec.)
From what I have read, and I am looking for input in this regard, I am going with the idea that the echo, because it has 1 hp and occupies space, is semi-tangible. I'm calling it "toad tangible." By this, I mean that the echo is a quasi-real, translucent, alternate-dimension version of the character, but as the 1 hp indicates, not particularly hardy. If I want to tie a rope around a toad and let it hop off with the rope, it can do that. But if the toad manages to jump several jumps up to a balcony, it can't hold the rope for people to climb up, because it's a toad. It will let go of the rope or it will be squished against the balcony as someone tries to climb using the toad as an anchor. Likewise, the echo could take the rope up to the balcony like an unseen servant, which is probably a fair comparison since the unseen servant is also quasi-real and has 1 hp and the ability to have limited interaction with the environment. Once on the balcony, the echo cannot serve as an anchor, no more than the servant or the toad. But the Echo Knight can then swap places with the echo and serve as the anchor themselves, which I think works just fine.
If I am going with the idea that the echo occupies its own space as a corporeal form, but is also a rather fragile form, like a toad, am I painting myself into a corner in a way I haven't foreseen?
I should add that I know the echo is not toad-sized or point-in-space-sized. I presume it is the same size and dimensions as the character it echoes. I am using the "toad" idea as a way to describe the relative fragility of the echo for such things as using it as an anchor, climbing on it, or trying to grapple with it, all of which would end in the death of the toad or, hence the analogy, the dissipation of the echo.
Can someone pass through the toad’s square? Can the toad be pushed? I think you can make any idea work, but they will likely deviate from the RAW. That said, the raw seems full of contradictions, so I’d say, solve for the biggest problems and don’t worry too much about the rest. If you rule an echo can’t block a space, that is cool too.
p.s. Is the echo toad considered a creature? :)
Thank you. The toad is not a toad, of course, as noted. That's a way to describe the echo's fragility. The echo looks as described -- a gray, translucent image of the character.
The echo still occupies its own space, as described. Standard rules apply for entering and threatening, as far as I can tell. I'm really not trying to deviate from RAW here...but from what I can see, ideas like "Can the echo be an anchor" are not universally agreed upon. As a "toad," it can be tangible enough to, say, move with a rope attached, but any force applied to the rope would break the image (which has 1 hp).
"That said, the raw seems full of contradictions" Exactly, yes.
The toad is an analogy, so there is no toad, and it is not a creature. ;) The echo is still an image and it still looks like the character in translucent gray.
Hey, I am playing a human echo knight, and I was wondering if anyone has good magic items that I could use. (Btw, she has a lot of connections to fire.)
Would the feat “Gift of the Gem Dragon” also count for the echo?
no, because the echo is not you.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
If I want to deal as much damage as possible in one turn, which build would be more optimal?
Lv 18 Echo Knight/ Lv 2 Barbarian( so I can get Rage and Reckless Attack) or Lv 20 Echo Knight
Maximum, the barbarian build because of the increased chance of criticals.
Optimal, the straight fighter because of that additional extra attack that comes with level 20.
Maximum takes into account the possible damage in a single round of a single encounter and assumes everything hits, triggering every conditional factor.
Optimal assumes average damage across multiple rounds across multiple encounters and assumes hits are distributed across the chance range.
Since Reckless Attack give me advantage every turn, is it a good idea to also take the Piercer feat, if I am a lance user?
Am I missing anything to boost my damage?
Cool amphibian analogy. I'll try to remember that next time I need to describe an echo to a player who Leaps at the chance to play an Echo Knight.
How would it work if example the creature being hit by the echo had an ability that would damage the source of the damage or in other case reflect damage back. Would this go to the echo or the knight?
Word the ability.
Regarding the Echo using a rope...it is an object. You can tie a rope to an object. This object can move. The rope could have a grappling hook on it. Once the echo is dismissed. The rope with the hook will still be there. It could, potentially, hook onto something.
All the said, the player can swap places with the echo and tie off a rope. 60 feet distant from the player's starting position. 30 feet in front. The echo moves 30 feet. They swap. The player still has their movement minus 15 feet.
I know DMs that hate the Echo Knight. They don't hate mages who are incredibly powerful. They need to get over themselves.
We nerf the EK by denying it the 1,000 ft teleport option. Just kill it. One DM allows it once per long rest.
I don't have a problem with DMs not allowing certain races (flying), feats (lucky), especially at certain levels. What I don't get is the emotion. Childish reactions irritate me. So does inconsistency. Want to nerf something? Nerf magic users...
I can see a few problems with this.
First, people only say it's an object because Crawford says it's an object. He also says everything is either a creature or an object, but this isn't laid out in the rules anywhere.
Second, because of the above dichotomy, intangible illusions are objects. You cannot use "object" as the defining descriptor for whether you can tie a rope around "magical, translucent, gray image".
Hi, I recently got the Hammer of Runic Focus with my Echo Knight. If I stay within the circle but my Echo is outside, attacking an enemy also outside, would I still get the +3 when I attack from my Echos position? If I get everything correct it should work: "While you’re inside that area" is the condition of the Hammer and I wouldn't leave the area when attacking through my echo, since my character remains there physically, only the attack is transferred through the "portal" like it's stated in the FAQ. Is this correct?
You are still making the attack through the echo, so as long as you stay within the rune that gives +3 the attacks are the same when coming from the echo. The echo is not a creature in itself and is not affected by any condition, positive or negative.
Does Clockwork Souls' Restore Balance work on your Echo? If so I have an extremely good build up my sleeve.
Drow Shadowblades are so good! Give them a Google!
The Echo is not a creature, so it would not qualify as a target.