Can someone clarify Opportunity Attack? If the Target is 5 feet away from the Echo and moves another 5 away, making the distance equal to 10 feet, will attack with a weapon without "reach" land ? Since default weapon reach is only 5 feet, this feature seems worthless.
Can someone clarify Opportunity Attack? If the Target is 5 feet away from the Echo and moves another 5 away, making the distance equal to 10 feet, will attack with a weapon without "reach" land ? Since default weapon reach is only 5 feet, this feature seems worthless.
when they leave the reach (as in, they begin to move to 10 feet away), you make the Opportunity Attack. This attack happens *before* they move.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
so any weapon with normal reach would work ? im asking because of phrasing "... within 5 feet from it and moves at least 5 feet away", if it just sad "moving away creature provoke an opportunity attack as if you were in it's place" without these extra 5 feet moving, which has confused me. And what distance with target would be with successful OA and Sentinel feat - 10 feet ? or it still be 5, since it's speed is now 0.
so any weapon with normal reach would work ? im asking because of phrasing "... within 5 feet from it and moves at least 5 feet away", if it just sad "moving away creature provoke an opportunity attack as if you were in it's place" without these extra 5 feet moving, which has confused me. And what distance with target would be with successful OA and Sentinel feat - 10 feet ? or it still be 5, since it's speed is now 0.
yes, any normal reach weapon would work, but Sentinel would trigger since it's called out as an opportunity attack, and the distance they move would be 0 (their movement speed is stopped entirely by Sentinel)
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
When you got to write a ridiculously long post of Q&A for a "subclass" and end up making like 100 clarifications and explanations after... it's called BAD DESIGN! LOL! What a mess and what a nightmare for a DM!
I'm playing an Echo Knight in a campaign and don't find it that ridiculous with some rulings and my play style for that character.
My Echo can't fly and has a weight just as the character but can only attack, so no physical interaction with the environment. It doesn't seem logic but I'm fine with this.
As of my play style, my character isn't someone that tries to hide behind anything. The most important thing is to not let anyone near the other party members, only if that's given I'll use the Echo as my own shield.
The stuff our druid is capable of often feels way worse (in a good way).
In practice it’s not that bad. Also, compared to full caster shenanigans, it’s not that complicated. A lot of the FAQ and follow on discussion deals with internal consistency and situations that, frankly, are unlikely to come up on a regular basis if ever.
Hey folks. About to start a new campaign, and playing an Echo Knight seems like a lot of fun. I have already gone through the (incredible!) FAQ above. Thanks so much for compiling this for the community. 💛
One query that doesn't seem to have been tackled as yet, is this specific sentence, from the Manifest Echo feature:
Q: Can the Knight move their Echo multiple times in a turn, as long as the Echo's total movement from this feature does not exceed 30 feet?
Given the wording of ManifestEcho, moving the Echo specifically does not require an Action. Nor for that matter any time, round, or turn based resource I can see. The only limitation seems to be that the Echo's total movement from using this feature must not exceed more than 30 feet, in any of the Knight's turns.
So in theory, and assuming that the Knight has multiple attacks, would it be possible to split the Echo's movement with this feature? By split movement, I mean in exactly the same way that characters can move between multiple attacks.
eg. Echo Knight's Turn NB: For the sake of simplicity, assume one Echo is already manifested, and Knight has multiple attacks
Knight uses this feature to move the Echo 15ft (Round total: 15ft), and into melee engagement with Enemy 1
Knight then takes the Attack action from the Echo's position, killing Enemy 1 with their first attack
Knight uses this feature to move the Echo an additional 15ft (Round total: 30ft), and into melee engage with Enemy 2
Knight then takes uses Extra Attack from the Echo's new position, to attack Enemy 2
Hey folks. About to start a new campaign, and playing an Echo Knight seems like a lot of fun. I have already gone through the (incredible!) FAQ above. Thanks so much for compiling this for the community. 💛
One query that doesn't seem to have been tackled as yet, is this specific sentence, from the Manifest Echo feature:
Q: Can the Knight move their Echo multiple times in a turn, as long as the Echo's total movement from this feature does not exceed 30 feet?
Given the wording of ManifestEcho, moving the Echo specifically does not require an Action. Nor for that matter any time, round, or turn based resource I can see. The only limitation seems to be that the Echo's total movement from using this feature must not exceed more than 30 feet, in any of the Knight's turns.
So in theory, and assuming that the Knight has multiple attacks, would it be possible to split the Echo's movement with this feature? By split movement, I mean in exactly the same way that characters can move between multiple attacks.
eg. Echo Knight's Turn NB: For the sake of simplicity, assume one Echo is already manifested, and Knight has multiple attacks
Knight uses this feature to move the Echo 15ft (Round total: 15ft), and into melee engagement with Enemy 1
Knight then takes the Attack action from the Echo's position, killing Enemy 1 with their first attack
Knight uses this feature to move the Echo an additional 15ft (Round total: 30ft), and into melee engage with Enemy 2
Knight then takes uses Extra Attack from the Echo's new position, to attack Enemy 2
Does that sound correct to you people?
I would rule that this works but I can see an argument against it. Just remember to check with the DM beforehand. Said argument might be:
Thanks for the response, and FWIW I agree with your ruling. In my own immediate situation, our DM will have the final say, of course.
Though to add to what you've already noted above:
I see no reason why the Echo being an object would preclude the Knight from moving it a second or third time, in exactly the same way as they moved it the first. It's status as an object has not changed between movements, and the number of individual moves is not limited by anything I can find RAW.
I can see an argument for wanting to rule the Knight moving the Echo as use of their free object interaction for the turn. Though a free object interaction is still an action, and this feature is specifically defined as not needing one; only an active turn.
Furthermore, It is not identified as an object interaction anywhere in the subclass either. This would be a crucial piece of information for how the rest of the action economy would work when using the feature.
For example: If moving the Echo is to be considered an object interaction, then RAW:
Eg. A Knight could not draw a weapon and move the echo in the same turn. This is clearly not RAW nor RAI as defined by the subclass.
Eg. A Knight could use an additional action (eg. via Haste, or Action Surge) to move the Echo a second time, as an additional object interaction. This would neither be possible, nor necessary, if the movement was not considered a free object interaction.
... And probably several other complexities, too. Either way, appreciate your thoughts and input. I'll chat with my DM about it for my own usage, and thanks again.
Thanks for the response, and FWIW I agree with your ruling. In my own immediate situation, our DM will have the final say, of course.
Though to add to what you've already noted above:
I see no reason why the Echo being an object would preclude the Knight from moving it a second or third time, in exactly the same way as they moved it the first. It's status as an object has not changed between movements, and the number of individual moves is not limited by anything I can find RAW.
I can see an argument for wanting to rule the Knight moving the Echo as use of their free object interaction for the turn. Though a free object interaction is still an action, and this feature is specifically defined as not needing one; only an active turn.
Furthermore, It is not identified as an object interaction anywhere in the subclass either. This would be a crucial piece of information for how the rest of the action economy would work when using the feature.
For example: If moving the Echo is to be considered an object interaction, then RAW:
Eg. A Knight could not draw a weapon and move the echo in the same turn. This is clearly not RAW nor RAI as defined by the subclass.
Eg. A Knight could use an additional action (eg. via Haste, or Action Surge) to move the Echo a second time, as an additional object interaction. This would neither be possible, nor necessary, if the movement was not considered a free object interaction.
... And probably several other complexities, too. Either way, appreciate your thoughts and input. I'll chat with my DM about it for my own usage, and thanks again.
Probably right, just wanted to explain a half-baked counter-argument.
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Hey! I make (what I believe to be, could use some feedback) good homebrew!
I am thankful for this FAQ and agree with almost all of it. The on part I disagree with is this.
Q: Can you use a melee attack spell or cantrip through an Echo? A: No, because casting spells still falls under the 'cast a spell’ action, and thus does not qualify as taking the ‘attack action'.
For spells like Booming Blade, being able to make a melee attack is just a component of the spell. The only exception to this would be using Warcaster on an opportunity attack with an Echo (see Opportunity Attacks).
In the Actions In Combat section, under Attack it says: "See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks."
In the Making an Attack section it says: "Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure."
A spell that requires one action to cast and involves an attack roll to hit should absolutely be able to be cast through an echo. Can't cast things that require Ability Saves, or take longer than an Action to cast, nor a Bonus Action. Now, that is with the 2014 rules. Because using a spell requiring an attack roll counts as an Attack Action.
But in the new 2024 rules, there is the new Magic Action. Unless they reword the Echo Knight features once they release it for the new rules, then the wording of "When you take the Attack action... " no longer holds any sway, as it is not the same as a Magic Action.
So the way I see it, any spells that use an attack roll and one Action can be made from the Echo. But only if you are still using the 2014 rules, 2024 rules do not allow for it.
In the Actions In Combat section, under Attack it says: "See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks."
In the Making an Attack section it says: "Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure."
A spell that requires one action to cast and involves an attack roll to hit should absolutely be able to be cast through an echo. Can't cast things that require Ability Saves, or take longer than an Action to cast, nor a Bonus Action. Now, that is with the 2014 rules. Because using a spell requiring an attack roll counts as an Attack Action.
But in the new 2024 rules, there is the new Magic Action. Unless they reword the Echo Knight features once they release it for the new rules, then the wording of "When you take the Attack action... " no longer holds any sway, as it is not the same as a Magic Action.
So the way I see it, any spells that use an attack roll and one Action can be made from the Echo. But only if you are still using the 2014 rules, 2024 rules do not allow for it.
Under the 2014 rules, attempting to cast a spell meant you were taking the Cast a Spell action. It doesn't matter if the spell has an attack roll or even uses a physical weapon. If you wanted to use, say, Booming Blade, that's the action you're taking. You don't get to substitute the action for a different one unless a feature expressly allowed for it.
For example, certain subclasses have a version of Extra Attack which allowed for swapping out an attack with a weapon for a cantrip. The wizard's Bladesinging arcane tradition eventually allowed for this after it was reprinted in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
If it's an object you can cast darkness on it then move it vertically up into the air to not get in the party's way, the echo isn't blinded as it's immune/can't see, but the Knight can make ranged attacks from it's floating, heavily obscured position?
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Thank you!
Drow Shadowblades are so good! Give them a Google!
Can someone clarify Opportunity Attack? If the Target is 5 feet away from the Echo and moves another 5 away, making the distance equal to 10 feet, will attack with a weapon without "reach" land ? Since default weapon reach is only 5 feet, this feature seems worthless.
when they leave the reach (as in, they begin to move to 10 feet away), you make the Opportunity Attack. This attack happens *before* they move.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
so any weapon with normal reach would work ? im asking because of phrasing "... within 5 feet from it and moves at least 5 feet away", if it just sad "moving away creature provoke an opportunity attack as if you were in it's place" without these extra 5 feet moving, which has confused me. And what distance with target would be with successful OA and Sentinel feat - 10 feet ? or it still be 5, since it's speed is now 0.
yes, any normal reach weapon would work, but Sentinel would trigger since it's called out as an opportunity attack, and the distance they move would be 0 (their movement speed is stopped entirely by Sentinel)
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
When you got to write a ridiculously long post of Q&A for a "subclass" and end up making like 100 clarifications and explanations after... it's called BAD DESIGN! LOL! What a mess and what a nightmare for a DM!
A lot of questions are from people simply being unfamiliar with rules as written.
I'm playing an Echo Knight in a campaign and don't find it that ridiculous with some rulings and my play style for that character.
My Echo can't fly and has a weight just as the character but can only attack, so no physical interaction with the environment. It doesn't seem logic but I'm fine with this.
As of my play style, my character isn't someone that tries to hide behind anything. The most important thing is to not let anyone near the other party members, only if that's given I'll use the Echo as my own shield.
The stuff our druid is capable of often feels way worse (in a good way).
In practice it’s not that bad. Also, compared to full caster shenanigans, it’s not that complicated. A lot of the FAQ and follow on discussion deals with internal consistency and situations that, frankly, are unlikely to come up on a regular basis if ever.
If a creature is frightened of the knight, is it also afraid of the echo?
I think that is up to the dm, as it isn't written anywhere
No.
Hey folks. About to start a new campaign, and playing an Echo Knight seems like a lot of fun. I have already gone through the (incredible!) FAQ above. Thanks so much for compiling this for the community. 💛
One query that doesn't seem to have been tackled as yet, is this specific sentence, from the Manifest Echo feature:
Q: Can the Knight move their Echo multiple times in a turn, as long as the Echo's total movement from this feature does not exceed 30 feet?
Given the wording of Manifest Echo, moving the Echo specifically does not require an Action. Nor for that matter any time, round, or turn based resource I can see. The only limitation seems to be that the Echo's total movement from using this feature must not exceed more than 30 feet, in any of the Knight's turns.
So in theory, and assuming that the Knight has multiple attacks, would it be possible to split the Echo's movement with this feature? By split movement, I mean in exactly the same way that characters can move between multiple attacks.
eg. Echo Knight's Turn
NB: For the sake of simplicity, assume one Echo is already manifested, and Knight has multiple attacks
Does that sound correct to you people?
Frequently flippant; sorry for being an apologist.
I would rule that this works but I can see an argument against it. Just remember to check with the DM beforehand. Said argument might be:
"The echo is classified as an object, so no."
I disagree though.
Hey! I make (what I believe to be, could use some feedback) good homebrew!
Click here!
Please tell me what you think!
Thanks for the response, and FWIW I agree with your ruling. In my own immediate situation, our DM will have the final say, of course.
Though to add to what you've already noted above:
I see no reason why the Echo being an object would preclude the Knight from moving it a second or third time, in exactly the same way as they moved it the first. It's status as an object has not changed between movements, and the number of individual moves is not limited by anything I can find RAW.
I can see an argument for wanting to rule the Knight moving the Echo as use of their free object interaction for the turn. Though a free object interaction is still an action, and this feature is specifically defined as not needing one; only an active turn.
Furthermore, It is not identified as an object interaction anywhere in the subclass either. This would be a crucial piece of information for how the rest of the action economy would work when using the feature.
For example: If moving the Echo is to be considered an object interaction, then RAW:
Eg. A Knight could not draw a weapon and move the echo in the same turn. This is clearly not RAW nor RAI as defined by the subclass.
Eg. A Knight could use an additional action (eg. via Haste, or Action Surge) to move the Echo a second time, as an additional object interaction. This would neither be possible, nor necessary, if the movement was not considered a free object interaction.
... And probably several other complexities, too. Either way, appreciate your thoughts and input. I'll chat with my DM about it for my own usage, and thanks again.
Frequently flippant; sorry for being an apologist.
Probably right, just wanted to explain a half-baked counter-argument.
Hey! I make (what I believe to be, could use some feedback) good homebrew!
Click here!
Please tell me what you think!
All appreciated, as are your replies. Thank you!
Frequently flippant; sorry for being an apologist.
I am thankful for this FAQ and agree with almost all of it. The on part I disagree with is this.
Q: Can you use a melee attack spell or cantrip through an Echo?
A: No, because casting spells still falls under the 'cast a spell’ action, and thus does not qualify as taking the ‘attack action'.
In the Actions In Combat section, under Attack it says:
"See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks."
In the Making an Attack section it says:
"Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure."
A spell that requires one action to cast and involves an attack roll to hit should absolutely be able to be cast through an echo. Can't cast things that require Ability Saves, or take longer than an Action to cast, nor a Bonus Action. Now, that is with the 2014 rules. Because using a spell requiring an attack roll counts as an Attack Action.
But in the new 2024 rules, there is the new Magic Action. Unless they reword the Echo Knight features once they release it for the new rules, then the wording of "When you take the Attack action... " no longer holds any sway, as it is not the same as a Magic Action.
So the way I see it, any spells that use an attack roll and one Action can be made from the Echo. But only if you are still using the 2014 rules, 2024 rules do not allow for it.
I understand your frustration, but I must disagree.
Under the 2014 rules, attempting to cast a spell meant you were taking the Cast a Spell action. It doesn't matter if the spell has an attack roll or even uses a physical weapon. If you wanted to use, say, Booming Blade, that's the action you're taking. You don't get to substitute the action for a different one unless a feature expressly allowed for it.
For example, certain subclasses have a version of Extra Attack which allowed for swapping out an attack with a weapon for a cantrip. The wizard's Bladesinging arcane tradition eventually allowed for this after it was reprinted in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
If it's an object you can cast darkness on it then move it vertically up into the air to not get in the party's way, the echo isn't blinded as it's immune/can't see, but the Knight can make ranged attacks from it's floating, heavily obscured position?