I agree with your vision, but as a Fighter you can find more efficient ways to mitigate damage - and nothing is more effective than a huge AC. If you are really attached to the “resistance” concept, you can simply get Heavy Armor Master. But I believe you should follow a simple decision tree that only EKs are capable to deploy due to the unusual combination of the best mundane AC possible and best defensive spells in the game:
- Is my AC being targeted? Save some slots for Shield + PFE&G or Blur.
- Am I being targeted by elemental damage? Save some slots for Absorb Elements.
War Magic is much more useful during levels 7-10 where you attack with a SCAG cantrip (like Booming Blade) and follow-up that with a regular attack.
Both of these alternatives require burning spell slots on reactions, Blade Ward doesn't. And while yes, SCAG cantrips + attack is great for damage, that's not going to keep you alive when you want to be taking less damage in return; it's an inexpensive tanking option, and saves your limited spell slots.
I'm not saying it's the best option in every scenario; but with an Eldritch Knight's ability to use a cantrip and still attack, it gives you a convenient option to quickly switch over to increased survivability while preserving your spell slots, and works even if you've already through burned them so is a good thing to have as a fallback. It also partly depends on your party's makeup; if you're fighting alongside a Barbarian or Paladin then you may not need it often (if at all) but a party with more mobile martials like a Monk, Rogue etc. may benefit from having a fighter who can switch to full-on tank mode when they need to. It's also worth noting that Blade Ward works alongside Absorb Elements and Shield, these are not mutually exclusive, so you can avoid the bulk of the damage heading your way and still resist the rest and tank for a much longer time altogether.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Especially with resistance mitigating a flat 50% of incoming damage. I think it depends on the situation. Do you need extra tankiness or can you do damage? ,
To be honest I'm not sure how it could have been done well.
It's a fighter, and subclasses are so minor that the main class is the only thing which really matters. If EK had been given satisfying combat magic it would have ended up OP because it still has action surge, tons of ASI's, and 4 attacks. It's the entire issue with 5e's subclass system. A subclass will always be completely overwhelmed by the main classes mechanics.
It's why I'm desperate for a swordmage full class, but at this point I'm 100% sure it's never coming.
Give EKs a cantrip whenever they take the attack action. So yes, 4 attacks + 1 cantrip.
Let EKs cast their spells into their weapons, such that a hold person spell cast into their weapon will affect the next person the weapon hits, with the DC being based on the EKs attack modifier (str/dex).
I thought that forcing EK to only have abjuration and evocation was the poorly designed part. It should have been any 2 schools, I think it could change the way people play the EK. Want to be a gnome EK that uses illusions and abjuration, and then casting in combat isn't as important. Or an lizardman that uses Necromancy and Conjuration and that like a shaman chieftain. Forcing EK to use abj and evo, are mostly combat only spells making you choose between spells or using your multi-attack.
I thought that forcing EK to only have abjuration and evocation was the poorly designed part. It should have been any 2 schools, I think it could change the way people play the EK. Want to be a gnome EK that uses illusions and abjuration, and then casting in combat isn't as important. Or an lizardman that uses Necromancy and Conjuration and that like a shaman chieftain. Forcing EK to use abj and evo, are mostly combat only spells making you choose between spells or using your multi-attack.
Either way, you'd be forced to choose between spending your action to Attack or [Tooltip Not Found]. At least the bulk of them are combat spells, which is the point of the Eldritch Knight. They use magic to bolster their already formidable fighting ability. Here are all the abjuration and evocation spells they can learn just from the PHB. And here are all the ones from Xanathar's, which also includes some from the EEPC. There are a lot of control spells found in both those lists. Eldritch Knights aren't in a bad place; not by a longshot.
And if you're going to lift that restriction, then you also have to lift the one for the Arcane Trickster. Fair is fair, am I right?
I agree on the Arcane Trickster, but I was trying to say a damage spell or a shield spell that really only affects a single round of combat is the same as a buff spell or utility spell. Abj and Evo have the least out of combat spells that are helpful and aren't very situational. And out of combat spells is the other benefit of having spells is the utility they can provide.
I also understand that EK do get 4 spells total not from their chosen(forced) schools, but I would rather have a single Abj or Evo spell be one of my 4 then the whole school.
Fighters are all about combat. It makes sense that their spell selections would be focused on combat. Just look at their 1st-level spells. They have access to alarm; which is a ritual. It might be sub-optimal, as they can almost certainly learn it via Ritual Caster, but it has a long duration. So does snare, and that's for setting up traps. If you want utility out of combat, it's there.
Other spells, like earth tremor and thunderwave, offer a degree of control that a wizard might not normally choose since they require being close to the fray. And look at their 2nd-level stuff, which will almost all be utility since the damage of their spells scales so poorly. I mean, shatter is nice and all, but when a full caster is pumping out 4th-level spells it doesn't look nearly as impressive. Eldritch Knights can learn arcane lock and darkness, both from the PHB, and warding wind for some additional control.
If you play up past level 13 and start learning 3rd-level spells, only three (fireball, lightning bolt, and Melf's minute meteors) cause damage. And again, the damage scales poorly. By this point in the game, the wizard could have both chain lightning and delayed blast fireball. The rest is nothing but utility, and that's probably what I'm going to want.
Fighters are all about combat. It makes sense that their spell selections would be focused on combat. Just look at their 1st-level spells. They have access to alarm; which is a ritual. It might be sub-optimal, as they can almost certainly learn it via Ritual Caster, but it has a long duration. So does snare, and that's for setting up traps. If you want utility out of combat, it's there.
Other spells, like earth tremor and thunderwave, offer a degree of control that a wizard might not normally choose since they require being close to the fray. And look at their 2nd-level stuff, which will almost all be utility since the damage of their spells scales so poorly. I mean, shatter is nice and all, but when a full caster is pumping out 4th-level spells it doesn't look nearly as impressive. Eldritch Knights can learn arcane lock and darkness, both from the PHB, and warding wind for some additional control.
If you play up past level 13 and start learning 3rd-level spells, only three (fireball, lightning bolt, and Melf's minute meteors) cause damage. And again, the damage scales poorly. By this point in the game, the wizard could have both chain lightning and delayed blast fireball. The rest is nothing but utility, and that's probably what I'm going to want.
Generally speaking, just like an Arcane Trickster, your best bet is avoiding spells that actually care about your Intelligence - Shield and Absorb Elements, for example, don't, but Thunderwave does, so Thunderwave should not be at the top of your list. You're still a fighter, and you'll still expect to rely on STR or DEX offensively - and you'll need CON even more than other archetypes if you take any Concentration spells, which is likely. Of course, you can and should make your other choices - fighting style, feats - to match. The Darkness spell is great with Blind Fighting or if you spend a feat on grabbing the Devil's Sight invocation from Warlocks, for example.
Here's my list of top contenders, although of course there will always be reasons to potentially grab something off-list (and every spell that can be off-school should be):
Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good, Shield; you shouldn't need Mage Armor for yourself, and you don't have the slots to hand it out to the party, but it can come up if you're making a dexterity eldritch knight.
Darkness, Warding Wind.
Intellect Fortress, Protection from Energy, Wall of Sand, Wall of Water (if you learn Wall of Water, you also want a party member - which could be you - with Shape Water so you can intentionally freeze, unfreeze (sections you froze with shape water only), and/or move wall sections).
Fire Shield, Stoneskin.
That's 11-12 spells, and you should only be learning a maximum of 9 spells from within your school limitations, so it's easy to pick all 9 without ever needing to actually rely on your int to do anything. I skipped some utility spells as being too niche to waste a precious spell known on, imho, and Alarm and Tiny Hut are both mission critical but best handed by someone else, like the wizard if the party has one, or the Pact of the Tome warlock, if the party has that. Or you can take the ritual caster feat - you'll never be as good as a tomelock or real wizard, but you do have more feats to spend than the average bear.
And if you're going to lift that restriction, then you also have to lift the one for the Arcane Trickster. Fair is fair, am I right?
TBH that sounds great. The restrictions handicap a lot of concepts for both subclasses needlessly. Putting the choice in the player's hands would open up a lot of opportunities and character ideas.
Generally speaking, just like an Arcane Trickster, your best bet is avoiding spells that actually care about your Intelligence - Shield and Absorb Elements, for example, don't, but Thunderwave does, so Thunderwave should not be at the top of your list. You're still a fighter, and you'll still expect to rely on STR or DEX offensively - and you'll need CON even more than other archetypes if you take any Concentration spells, which is likely. Of course, you can and should make your other choices - fighting style, feats - to match. The Darkness spell is great with Blind Fighting or if you spend a feat on grabbing the Devil's Sight invocation from Warlocks, for example.
With all due respect, no. Eldritch Strike imposes disadvantage on your saving throws. With more ASIs than any other class, it's not hard for an Eldritch Knight to have a decent intelligence score. And concentration isn't a big deal because they already have proficiency with Constitution saving throws.
Now, you certainly can build an Eldritch Knight with shite Intelligence. But it unnecessarily handicaps your character; limiting your effectiveness by denying effective options. Spells like thunderwave aren't chosen for their damage-dealing potential, but for control. A cantrip like acid splash can be used to deal effective damage at-range while engaged in melee with someone else; thanks to War Magic. Or maybe you'd rather have green-flame blade.
Nevermind that so many of the Arcane Trickster's desirable spells rely on your spell save DC for determining the believability of illusions. It's kind of insane to say that a spellcaster doesn't need a spellcasting stat, but here we are.
And if you're going to lift that restriction, then you also have to lift the one for the Arcane Trickster. Fair is fair, am I right?
TBH that sounds great. The restrictions handicap a lot of concepts for both subclasses needlessly. Putting the choice in the player's hands would open up a lot of opportunities and character ideas.
No, it's insane. It's been six years and they haven't suffered for it. Having them focus on two specific schools works with such a limited spell list. If you open it up to everything, you just end up making a mess.
I was never saying Evo or Abj spells are bad, they are great for what they do. But if every EK is taking the same 8 spells because they are the best spells in those schools that makes for a very same-y play style. I would like to see something more interesting, changing the spell schools does that but without breaking the balance of the game. Changing being the keyword, meaning if they give up Evo spells for Div and want Evo spells they need to use 1 of the 4 free spells.
I know house rules exists but some DM do not allow house rules like this. I still think Eldritch Knight is probably my fighter subclass, I think changing schools would get other people to try EK that might not otherwise.
Except they're not going to be choosing the same 8 spells every single time. There's no such thing as best-in-slot. What you choose isn't just about your character. It's also about what the party needs.
Just staying with those two schools (abjuration and evocation), there are 9 possible 1st-level spells, 7 possible 2nd-level spells, 11 possible 3rd-level spells, and 8 possible 4th-level spells to be found within the PHB alone. That's a little over 29.6 trillion combinations; if we assume 20th-level characters with no feats (like Magic Initiate). And we haven't even gotten to their free picks. Now, if you're playing something like Curse of Strahd, then you're down to a far more modest 43,680 combinations for the final push into Castle Ravenloft at 9th-level. Storm King's Thunder should see you around 5.7 million combinations by 11th-level, but it could get as high as 4.475 billion if you play all the way to 13th-level. Which is actually the same as some of the 15th-level campaigns, like Tyranny of Dragons, since the only added spell is another free pick.
Things like whether or not you emphasize Strength or Dexterity, your gear selection, and the rules you're playing under can all make a difference. Something like mage armor can be desirable for a low-Dex character who isn't sleeping in their heavy armor at night because of the exhaustion rules in Xanathar's. And it's still better than studded leather.
I really hope that the Eldritch Knight gets the same treatment as the bladesinger for their extra attack at some point in errata or reprints. The clash between the fighter's 3rd extra attack and war magic makes the subclass ability underwhelming in the stage of play where most classes are starting to go off the rails in terms of power.
Except some spells are bad, either bad for characters (good for NPC) or a poor choice for a fighter. For instance Witch Bolt isn't very good, it uses your action every round to deal 1d12 and fighters have better things they can do with their turn and can deal more damage by attacking. On the other hand Shield is an excellent spell both for fighter and in general, I would bet most EK are taking Shield. I always ignore the 4th level spells as you only get 1 per day and only learn 1 from Abj or Evo, and one from any school.
Not to mention the spells in Evo that require a save, where Eldritch Strike would help against are just damage with the exception of moving them away from a fighter and Earth Tremor which knocks them prone. And as you previously stated a spell caster with full spell slots is dealing more damage with an up casted spells or simply a better spell. Making taking a lot of damaging spells a poor choice. So your combination of spells isn't a high as you claim it is, unless you are talking about characters that are non optimized.
I say not optimized because it's not min/maxing, it's optimization. At level 17+ it is better to cast Fire Bolt a cantrip that deals 4d10 (22) fire damage than it is to cast Scorching Ray a 2nd level spell that deals 6d6 (21) fire damage. Or maybe just attack which would do 3-4 attacks with 1d8+5 or 30-40 magical damage.
Point is if you don't want to take any spells from one of the schools for whatever reason, it would be nice if EKs could have an option to change out one school for a different one.
Except some spells are bad, either bad for characters (good for NPC) or a poor choice for a fighter. For instance Witch Bolt isn't very good, it uses your action every round to deal 1d12 and fighters have better things they can do with their turn and can deal more damage by attacking. On the other hand Shield is an excellent spell both for fighter and in general, I would bet most EK are taking Shield. I always ignore the 4th level spells as you only get 1 per day and only learn 1 from Abj or Evo, and one from any school.
If I have a player who really wants to take a chance on witch bolt, I won't stop them. It's doesn't deal a lot of damage, but it's efficient in dealing damage over time so long as you can meet the requirements. And shield is fine, even good, but you also have to be careful with how you use it. Without the feat War Caster, you need a free hand. Which means no dual-wielding and no wearing a shield.
And you can actually learn up to four 4th-level spells; three of which can be from any school. When you level up, you can trade spells known out for new ones; including at higher levels. A 7th-level Eldritch Knight only knows five spells, but two can be 2nd-level. One of those two can even be from any school. By 8th-level, they could know two 1st-level and four 2nd-level spells; with two of the four being from any school.
Not to mention the spells in Evo that require a save, where Eldritch Strike would help against are just damage with the exception of moving them away from a fighter and Earth Tremor which knocks them prone. And as you previously stated a spell caster with full spell slots is dealing more damage with an up casted spells or simply a better spell. Making taking a lot of damaging spells a poor choice. So your combination of spells isn't a high as you claim it is, unless you are talking about characters that are non optimized.
Were you not paying attention when I said you're better off taking spells to control instead of deal damage? There are more than a dozen solid control spells, that are free picks, between 1st and 2nd-level, that inflict conditions on a failed saving throw.
There's nothing wrong with my math. I gave you an accurate accounting of how many different combinations of abjuration and evocation spells an Eldritch Knight can learn. Some of them will deal damage and have rider effects. Some will be just about control. That's an intentional part of the design process. Evocation isn't just dealing damage. It's pulling energy from another plane. Not that it's on the wizard spell list, but cure wounds is an evocation spell. When it's cast, the spellcaster is drawing positive energy from the Positive Energy Plane to heal someone. When you cast fireball, that's the Plane of Fire. When you cast warding wind, that's the Plane of Air.
I say not optimized because it's not min/maxing, it's optimization. At level 17+ it is better to cast Fire Bolt a cantrip that deals 4d10 (22) fire damage than it is to cast Scorching Ray a 2nd level spell that deals 6d6 (21) fire damage. Or maybe just attack which would do 3-4 attacks with 1d8+5 or 30-40 magical damage.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. I've had scorching ray on an Eldritch Knight before. He was Strength-focused with a greatsword and splint. The ability to make three ranged attacks at 7th-level, even if the damage is lackluster, is nothing to sneeze at. Even if I was playing an archer and had a better chance of hitting and dealing more consistent damage, I still couldn't get off that many attacks and hit that many foes. And the total damage is still comparable to two swings of my weapon. It fell off at higher levels, sure, but at that moment it was a solid pick.
Point is if you don't want to take any spells from one of the schools for whatever reason, it would be nice if EKs could have an option to change out one school for a different one.
And my point is that, presently, everyone knows what they're getting into with Eldritch Knights and their baked-in limitation. It's not like anyone is choosing it blindly. Even a newer player knows and accepts whatever risk(s) you wish to associate with it. People choose it now because of the limitation, not in spite of it.
Except some spells are bad, either bad for characters (good for NPC) or a poor choice for a fighter. For instance Witch Bolt isn't very good, it uses your action every round to deal 1d12 and fighters have better things they can do with their turn and can deal more damage by attacking. On the other hand Shield is an excellent spell both for fighter and in general, I would bet most EK are taking Shield. I always ignore the 4th level spells as you only get 1 per day and only learn 1 from Abj or Evo, and one from any school.
Not to mention the spells in Evo that require a save, where Eldritch Strike would help against are just damage with the exception of moving them away from a fighter and Earth Tremor which knocks them prone. And as you previously stated a spell caster with full spell slots is dealing more damage with an up casted spells or simply a better spell. Making taking a lot of damaging spells a poor choice. So your combination of spells isn't a high as you claim it is, unless you are talking about characters that are non optimized.
I say not optimized because it's not min/maxing, it's optimization. At level 17+ it is better to cast Fire Bolt a cantrip that deals 4d10 (22) fire damage than it is to cast Scorching Ray a 2nd level spell that deals 6d6 (21) fire damage. Or maybe just attack which would do 3-4 attacks with 1d8+5 or 30-40 magical damage.
Point is if you don't want to take any spells from one of the schools for whatever reason, it would be nice if EKs could have an option to change out one school for a different one.
Yeah, damaging spells are really situational on a 1/3rd caster. At least something like Earth Tremor offers an option for control, but even then it won't be terribly common for it to be the natural option for an EK in most scenarios.
I get the flavor side of the school limitations for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, but in practical terms it doesn't make a ton of sense. Their spells known, cantrips known, and spell slots are so limited already, and they don't get rituals. So I personally treat the restrictions on school as more of a flavor issue than some kind of hard rule, since it isn't going to break anything.
I think one aspect that gets overlooked so often regarding EKs is that they have spellcasting, and therefore can make use of spell scrolls. More than that, they can scribe scrolls if they have proficiency in arcana. Fighters very often have little use for gold outside of buying their armor. But you can buy 1st lvl scrolls for 75 gp, or make your own for 50 gp and some downtime days. This even comes in handy when you want to have access to certain spells like feather fall but prove very niche to justify learning it. Just buy 5 feather fall scrolls, for example, and it'll be a long while before you run out. Buy several of longstrider, several of jump, these don't require concentration and can stack their effects with each other. Since I play with my EK with a greatsword, I have a free hand at any time to grab a scroll and use it as a reaction. Ever wonder what it's like to have 50 shield or absorb element scrolls? It's like nothing can ever touch you aside from a crit.
Also, as an EK you can have access to Find Familiar. What an awesome asset! You can scout with the spider, grant advantage in combat safely with the owl, or use the bat to tell you if any invisible enemies are coming from 60 feet away, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. That alone greatly enriches your play in t1 and t2. Meanwhile, in t3 you get to haste yourself and hardly fail the concentration check thanks to your CON save proficiency. People are amazed once they see a hasted PAM+GWM EK doing 5 attacks in a round in t3. Access to longstrider, misty step, and haste means you have un-matched mobility compared to any other fighter. Imagine moving and dashing twice and misty steping to cover a total of 270 ft in a single turn!
High AC, high mobility, high utility, high damage-- what's not to love?
I think one aspect that gets overlooked so often regarding EKs is that they have spellcasting, and therefore can make use of spell scrolls. More than that, they can scribe scrolls if they have proficiency in arcana. Fighters very often have little use for gold outside of buying their armor. But you can buy 1st lvl scrolls for 75 gp, or make your own for 50 gp and some downtime days. This even comes in handy when you want to have access to certain spells like feather fall but prove very niche to justify learning it. Just buy 5 feather fall scrolls, for example, and it'll be a long while before you run out. Buy several of longstrider, several of jump, these don't require concentration and can stack their effects with each other. Since I play with my EK with a greatsword, I have a free hand at any time to grab a scroll and use it as a reaction. Ever wonder what it's like to have 50 shield or absorb element scrolls? It's like nothing can ever touch you aside from a crit.
Also, as an EK you can have access to Find Familiar. What an awesome asset! You can scout with the spider, grant advantage in combat safely with the owl, or use the bat to tell you if any invisible enemies are coming from 60 feet away, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. That alone greatly enriches your play in t1 and t2. Meanwhile, in t3 you get to haste yourself and hardly fail the concentration check thanks to your CON save proficiency. People are amazed once they see a hasted PAM+GWM EK doing 5 attacks in a round in t3. Access to longstrider, misty step, and haste means you have un-matched mobility compared to any other fighter. Imagine moving and dashing twice and misty steping to cover a total of 270 ft in a single turn!
High AC, high mobility, high utility, high damage-- what's not to love?
It can be really hard to find enough days to make a meaningful number of spell scrolls, even if they are just 1st level. And it would totally be up to the DM to let you find useful scrolls to purchase and then to purchase them in any quantity.
Its an interesting aspect, but it isn't a giant leap in power for the EK.
Except some spells are bad, either bad for characters (good for NPC) or a poor choice for a fighter. For instance Witch Bolt isn't very good, it uses your action every round to deal 1d12 and fighters have better things they can do with their turn and can deal more damage by attacking. On the other hand Shield is an excellent spell both for fighter and in general, I would bet most EK are taking Shield. I always ignore the 4th level spells as you only get 1 per day and only learn 1 from Abj or Evo, and one from any school.
Not to mention the spells in Evo that require a save, where Eldritch Strike would help against are just damage with the exception of moving them away from a fighter and Earth Tremor which knocks them prone. And as you previously stated a spell caster with full spell slots is dealing more damage with an up casted spells or simply a better spell. Making taking a lot of damaging spells a poor choice. So your combination of spells isn't a high as you claim it is, unless you are talking about characters that are non optimized.
I say not optimized because it's not min/maxing, it's optimization. At level 17+ it is better to cast Fire Bolt a cantrip that deals 4d10 (22) fire damage than it is to cast Scorching Ray a 2nd level spell that deals 6d6 (21) fire damage. Or maybe just attack which would do 3-4 attacks with 1d8+5 or 30-40 magical damage.
Point is if you don't want to take any spells from one of the schools for whatever reason, it would be nice if EKs could have an option to change out one school for a different one.
Yeah, damaging spells are really situational on a 1/3rd caster. At least something like Earth Tremor offers an option for control, but even then it won't be terribly common for it to be the natural option for an EK in most scenarios.
I get the flavor side of the school limitations for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, but in practical terms it doesn't make a ton of sense. Their spells known, cantrips known, and spell slots are so limited already, and they don't get rituals. So I personally treat the restrictions on school as more of a flavor issue than some kind of hard rule, since it isn't going to break anything.
In practical terms in makes a ton of sense. They still have to find time to learn all of their class abilities as well as magic. From a practical standpoint they've picked the two kinds of magic that are most useful to them. Usefulness of any other school of magic in large number for either class is extremely niche at best. Like Singular Builds Niche. They were actually given the optimal schools of magic that most match what those two classes are going to be doing naturally as an enhancement of their class as it exists and that was a good and practical choice as well as a thematic one because it's what most players are going to want to start with. specially new players.
Your need for this so called "Natural pick" is half the problem here. There is no so called Natural Pick that is going to apply to everybody. For as much as Shield or Absorb elements can be useful they can just as often be traps stopping players from using their full abilities. Depending on your build, like say a dex focused dual wielder will find more use in general from learning Mage armor. Which is very efficient for the spell slots over wearing bulkier armor where most of it's dex bonus is useless since Mage Armor is basically one of the strongest light and no armor options for armor in the game despite being a level one spell. Maxing out their dex gives them as much AC as full plate mail off that one spell for minimal investment and Dex naturally gives them some good saves against several spells since Dex and Con are the saves for a vast majority of elemental damage that absorb elements would provide protection against and mage armor is not concentration so it cannot be lost in melee combat.
They were actually given the optimal schools of magic that most match what those two classes are going to be doing naturally as an enhancement of their class as it exists and that was a good and practical choice as well as a thematic one because it's what most players are going to want to start with. specially new players.
I'd agree that this is true for the Arcane Trickster. But much of Evocation is built around benefitting from up-casting. Even a half caster with access to wizard spells would be underwhelming if they focused on evocation. It might fit somewhat thematically, but it doesn't make a lot of sense mechanically.
Your need for this so called "Natural pick" is half the problem here.
I mean, Im the one saying "why shoehorn them to begin with," while you just argued that a 2 school limit is a natural pick. I understand you are applying it at two different levels, but I am the one for player choice here. I'd rather get away from forcing the player to hold onto a spell like burning hands if they really wanted more of an illusionist style fighter or something based around schools other than abjuration and evocation. They get so few spells and spell slots to begin with that it would hardly be an issue. And for new players, there can just be a blurb about how traditional examples of EK's focus on abjuration and evocation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Both of these alternatives require burning spell slots on reactions, Blade Ward doesn't. And while yes, SCAG cantrips + attack is great for damage, that's not going to keep you alive when you want to be taking less damage in return; it's an inexpensive tanking option, and saves your limited spell slots.
I'm not saying it's the best option in every scenario; but with an Eldritch Knight's ability to use a cantrip and still attack, it gives you a convenient option to quickly switch over to increased survivability while preserving your spell slots, and works even if you've already through burned them so is a good thing to have as a fallback. It also partly depends on your party's makeup; if you're fighting alongside a Barbarian or Paladin then you may not need it often (if at all) but a party with more mobile martials like a Monk, Rogue etc. may benefit from having a fighter who can switch to full-on tank mode when they need to. It's also worth noting that Blade Ward works alongside Absorb Elements and Shield, these are not mutually exclusive, so you can avoid the bulk of the damage heading your way and still resist the rest and tank for a much longer time altogether.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Especially with resistance mitigating a flat 50% of incoming damage. I think it depends on the situation. Do you need extra tankiness or can you do damage? ,
Your neighboorhood neutral good divine soul gish
Give EKs a cantrip whenever they take the attack action. So yes, 4 attacks + 1 cantrip.
Let EKs cast their spells into their weapons, such that a hold person spell cast into their weapon will affect the next person the weapon hits, with the DC being based on the EKs attack modifier (str/dex).
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I thought that forcing EK to only have abjuration and evocation was the poorly designed part. It should have been any 2 schools, I think it could change the way people play the EK. Want to be a gnome EK that uses illusions and abjuration, and then casting in combat isn't as important. Or an lizardman that uses Necromancy and Conjuration and that like a shaman chieftain. Forcing EK to use abj and evo, are mostly combat only spells making you choose between spells or using your multi-attack.
Either way, you'd be forced to choose between spending your action to Attack or [Tooltip Not Found]. At least the bulk of them are combat spells, which is the point of the Eldritch Knight. They use magic to bolster their already formidable fighting ability. Here are all the abjuration and evocation spells they can learn just from the PHB. And here are all the ones from Xanathar's, which also includes some from the EEPC. There are a lot of control spells found in both those lists. Eldritch Knights aren't in a bad place; not by a longshot.
And if you're going to lift that restriction, then you also have to lift the one for the Arcane Trickster. Fair is fair, am I right?
I agree on the Arcane Trickster, but I was trying to say a damage spell or a shield spell that really only affects a single round of combat is the same as a buff spell or utility spell. Abj and Evo have the least out of combat spells that are helpful and aren't very situational. And out of combat spells is the other benefit of having spells is the utility they can provide.
I also understand that EK do get 4 spells total not from their chosen(forced) schools, but I would rather have a single Abj or Evo spell be one of my 4 then the whole school.
Fighters are all about combat. It makes sense that their spell selections would be focused on combat. Just look at their 1st-level spells. They have access to alarm; which is a ritual. It might be sub-optimal, as they can almost certainly learn it via Ritual Caster, but it has a long duration. So does snare, and that's for setting up traps. If you want utility out of combat, it's there.
Other spells, like earth tremor and thunderwave, offer a degree of control that a wizard might not normally choose since they require being close to the fray. And look at their 2nd-level stuff, which will almost all be utility since the damage of their spells scales so poorly. I mean, shatter is nice and all, but when a full caster is pumping out 4th-level spells it doesn't look nearly as impressive. Eldritch Knights can learn arcane lock and darkness, both from the PHB, and warding wind for some additional control.
If you play up past level 13 and start learning 3rd-level spells, only three (fireball, lightning bolt, and Melf's minute meteors) cause damage. And again, the damage scales poorly. By this point in the game, the wizard could have both chain lightning and delayed blast fireball. The rest is nothing but utility, and that's probably what I'm going to want.
Generally speaking, just like an Arcane Trickster, your best bet is avoiding spells that actually care about your Intelligence - Shield and Absorb Elements, for example, don't, but Thunderwave does, so Thunderwave should not be at the top of your list. You're still a fighter, and you'll still expect to rely on STR or DEX offensively - and you'll need CON even more than other archetypes if you take any Concentration spells, which is likely. Of course, you can and should make your other choices - fighting style, feats - to match. The Darkness spell is great with Blind Fighting or if you spend a feat on grabbing the Devil's Sight invocation from Warlocks, for example.
Here's my list of top contenders, although of course there will always be reasons to potentially grab something off-list (and every spell that can be off-school should be):
That's 11-12 spells, and you should only be learning a maximum of 9 spells from within your school limitations, so it's easy to pick all 9 without ever needing to actually rely on your int to do anything. I skipped some utility spells as being too niche to waste a precious spell known on, imho, and Alarm and Tiny Hut are both mission critical but best handed by someone else, like the wizard if the party has one, or the Pact of the Tome warlock, if the party has that. Or you can take the ritual caster feat - you'll never be as good as a tomelock or real wizard, but you do have more feats to spend than the average bear.
TBH that sounds great. The restrictions handicap a lot of concepts for both subclasses needlessly. Putting the choice in the player's hands would open up a lot of opportunities and character ideas.
With all due respect, no. Eldritch Strike imposes disadvantage on your saving throws. With more ASIs than any other class, it's not hard for an Eldritch Knight to have a decent intelligence score. And concentration isn't a big deal because they already have proficiency with Constitution saving throws.
Now, you certainly can build an Eldritch Knight with shite Intelligence. But it unnecessarily handicaps your character; limiting your effectiveness by denying effective options. Spells like thunderwave aren't chosen for their damage-dealing potential, but for control. A cantrip like acid splash can be used to deal effective damage at-range while engaged in melee with someone else; thanks to War Magic. Or maybe you'd rather have green-flame blade.
Nevermind that so many of the Arcane Trickster's desirable spells rely on your spell save DC for determining the believability of illusions. It's kind of insane to say that a spellcaster doesn't need a spellcasting stat, but here we are.
No, it's insane. It's been six years and they haven't suffered for it. Having them focus on two specific schools works with such a limited spell list. If you open it up to everything, you just end up making a mess.
I was never saying Evo or Abj spells are bad, they are great for what they do. But if every EK is taking the same 8 spells because they are the best spells in those schools that makes for a very same-y play style. I would like to see something more interesting, changing the spell schools does that but without breaking the balance of the game. Changing being the keyword, meaning if they give up Evo spells for Div and want Evo spells they need to use 1 of the 4 free spells.
I know house rules exists but some DM do not allow house rules like this. I still think Eldritch Knight is probably my fighter subclass, I think changing schools would get other people to try EK that might not otherwise.
Except they're not going to be choosing the same 8 spells every single time. There's no such thing as best-in-slot. What you choose isn't just about your character. It's also about what the party needs.
Just staying with those two schools (abjuration and evocation), there are 9 possible 1st-level spells, 7 possible 2nd-level spells, 11 possible 3rd-level spells, and 8 possible 4th-level spells to be found within the PHB alone. That's a little over 29.6 trillion combinations; if we assume 20th-level characters with no feats (like Magic Initiate). And we haven't even gotten to their free picks. Now, if you're playing something like Curse of Strahd, then you're down to a far more modest 43,680 combinations for the final push into Castle Ravenloft at 9th-level. Storm King's Thunder should see you around 5.7 million combinations by 11th-level, but it could get as high as 4.475 billion if you play all the way to 13th-level. Which is actually the same as some of the 15th-level campaigns, like Tyranny of Dragons, since the only added spell is another free pick.
Things like whether or not you emphasize Strength or Dexterity, your gear selection, and the rules you're playing under can all make a difference. Something like mage armor can be desirable for a low-Dex character who isn't sleeping in their heavy armor at night because of the exhaustion rules in Xanathar's. And it's still better than studded leather.
I really hope that the Eldritch Knight gets the same treatment as the bladesinger for their extra attack at some point in errata or reprints. The clash between the fighter's 3rd extra attack and war magic makes the subclass ability underwhelming in the stage of play where most classes are starting to go off the rails in terms of power.
Except some spells are bad, either bad for characters (good for NPC) or a poor choice for a fighter. For instance Witch Bolt isn't very good, it uses your action every round to deal 1d12 and fighters have better things they can do with their turn and can deal more damage by attacking. On the other hand Shield is an excellent spell both for fighter and in general, I would bet most EK are taking Shield. I always ignore the 4th level spells as you only get 1 per day and only learn 1 from Abj or Evo, and one from any school.
Not to mention the spells in Evo that require a save, where Eldritch Strike would help against are just damage with the exception of moving them away from a fighter and Earth Tremor which knocks them prone. And as you previously stated a spell caster with full spell slots is dealing more damage with an up casted spells or simply a better spell. Making taking a lot of damaging spells a poor choice. So your combination of spells isn't a high as you claim it is, unless you are talking about characters that are non optimized.
I say not optimized because it's not min/maxing, it's optimization. At level 17+ it is better to cast Fire Bolt a cantrip that deals 4d10 (22) fire damage than it is to cast Scorching Ray a 2nd level spell that deals 6d6 (21) fire damage. Or maybe just attack which would do 3-4 attacks with 1d8+5 or 30-40 magical damage.
Point is if you don't want to take any spells from one of the schools for whatever reason, it would be nice if EKs could have an option to change out one school for a different one.
If I have a player who really wants to take a chance on witch bolt, I won't stop them. It's doesn't deal a lot of damage, but it's efficient in dealing damage over time so long as you can meet the requirements. And shield is fine, even good, but you also have to be careful with how you use it. Without the feat War Caster, you need a free hand. Which means no dual-wielding and no wearing a shield.
And you can actually learn up to four 4th-level spells; three of which can be from any school. When you level up, you can trade spells known out for new ones; including at higher levels. A 7th-level Eldritch Knight only knows five spells, but two can be 2nd-level. One of those two can even be from any school. By 8th-level, they could know two 1st-level and four 2nd-level spells; with two of the four being from any school.
Were you not paying attention when I said you're better off taking spells to control instead of deal damage? There are more than a dozen solid control spells, that are free picks, between 1st and 2nd-level, that inflict conditions on a failed saving throw.
There's nothing wrong with my math. I gave you an accurate accounting of how many different combinations of abjuration and evocation spells an Eldritch Knight can learn. Some of them will deal damage and have rider effects. Some will be just about control. That's an intentional part of the design process. Evocation isn't just dealing damage. It's pulling energy from another plane. Not that it's on the wizard spell list, but cure wounds is an evocation spell. When it's cast, the spellcaster is drawing positive energy from the Positive Energy Plane to heal someone. When you cast fireball, that's the Plane of Fire. When you cast warding wind, that's the Plane of Air.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. I've had scorching ray on an Eldritch Knight before. He was Strength-focused with a greatsword and splint. The ability to make three ranged attacks at 7th-level, even if the damage is lackluster, is nothing to sneeze at. Even if I was playing an archer and had a better chance of hitting and dealing more consistent damage, I still couldn't get off that many attacks and hit that many foes. And the total damage is still comparable to two swings of my weapon. It fell off at higher levels, sure, but at that moment it was a solid pick.
And my point is that, presently, everyone knows what they're getting into with Eldritch Knights and their baked-in limitation. It's not like anyone is choosing it blindly. Even a newer player knows and accepts whatever risk(s) you wish to associate with it. People choose it now because of the limitation, not in spite of it.
Yeah, damaging spells are really situational on a 1/3rd caster. At least something like Earth Tremor offers an option for control, but even then it won't be terribly common for it to be the natural option for an EK in most scenarios.
I get the flavor side of the school limitations for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters, but in practical terms it doesn't make a ton of sense. Their spells known, cantrips known, and spell slots are so limited already, and they don't get rituals. So I personally treat the restrictions on school as more of a flavor issue than some kind of hard rule, since it isn't going to break anything.
I think one aspect that gets overlooked so often regarding EKs is that they have spellcasting, and therefore can make use of spell scrolls. More than that, they can scribe scrolls if they have proficiency in arcana. Fighters very often have little use for gold outside of buying their armor. But you can buy 1st lvl scrolls for 75 gp, or make your own for 50 gp and some downtime days. This even comes in handy when you want to have access to certain spells like feather fall but prove very niche to justify learning it. Just buy 5 feather fall scrolls, for example, and it'll be a long while before you run out. Buy several of longstrider, several of jump, these don't require concentration and can stack their effects with each other. Since I play with my EK with a greatsword, I have a free hand at any time to grab a scroll and use it as a reaction. Ever wonder what it's like to have 50 shield or absorb element scrolls? It's like nothing can ever touch you aside from a crit.
Also, as an EK you can have access to Find Familiar. What an awesome asset! You can scout with the spider, grant advantage in combat safely with the owl, or use the bat to tell you if any invisible enemies are coming from 60 feet away, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. That alone greatly enriches your play in t1 and t2. Meanwhile, in t3 you get to haste yourself and hardly fail the concentration check thanks to your CON save proficiency. People are amazed once they see a hasted PAM+GWM EK doing 5 attacks in a round in t3. Access to longstrider, misty step, and haste means you have un-matched mobility compared to any other fighter. Imagine moving and dashing twice and misty steping to cover a total of 270 ft in a single turn!
High AC, high mobility, high utility, high damage-- what's not to love?
It can be really hard to find enough days to make a meaningful number of spell scrolls, even if they are just 1st level. And it would totally be up to the DM to let you find useful scrolls to purchase and then to purchase them in any quantity.
Its an interesting aspect, but it isn't a giant leap in power for the EK.
In practical terms in makes a ton of sense. They still have to find time to learn all of their class abilities as well as magic. From a practical standpoint they've picked the two kinds of magic that are most useful to them. Usefulness of any other school of magic in large number for either class is extremely niche at best. Like Singular Builds Niche. They were actually given the optimal schools of magic that most match what those two classes are going to be doing naturally as an enhancement of their class as it exists and that was a good and practical choice as well as a thematic one because it's what most players are going to want to start with. specially new players.
Your need for this so called "Natural pick" is half the problem here. There is no so called Natural Pick that is going to apply to everybody. For as much as Shield or Absorb elements can be useful they can just as often be traps stopping players from using their full abilities. Depending on your build, like say a dex focused dual wielder will find more use in general from learning Mage armor. Which is very efficient for the spell slots over wearing bulkier armor where most of it's dex bonus is useless since Mage Armor is basically one of the strongest light and no armor options for armor in the game despite being a level one spell. Maxing out their dex gives them as much AC as full plate mail off that one spell for minimal investment and Dex naturally gives them some good saves against several spells since Dex and Con are the saves for a vast majority of elemental damage that absorb elements would provide protection against and mage armor is not concentration so it cannot be lost in melee combat.
I'd agree that this is true for the Arcane Trickster. But much of Evocation is built around benefitting from up-casting. Even a half caster with access to wizard spells would be underwhelming if they focused on evocation. It might fit somewhat thematically, but it doesn't make a lot of sense mechanically.
I mean, Im the one saying "why shoehorn them to begin with," while you just argued that a 2 school limit is a natural pick. I understand you are applying it at two different levels, but I am the one for player choice here. I'd rather get away from forcing the player to hold onto a spell like burning hands if they really wanted more of an illusionist style fighter or something based around schools other than abjuration and evocation. They get so few spells and spell slots to begin with that it would hardly be an issue. And for new players, there can just be a blurb about how traditional examples of EK's focus on abjuration and evocation.