I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
Nah the math I've seen takes into account having 2 short rest a day and having 3-5 rounds of combat with 1-2 encounters between rests.
I won't dive into it as it's a completely separate discussion but I'm very comfortable saying that unless you have 6-8 combats a day and no short rest that's the only way the champion pulls ahead... And even that's just comparing the base class with ASI going to ability scores and not feats.
If you include feats BM pulls ahead really easily with the help of the damage feats and precision attack.
That's really besides the point as champion is mostly bad to me because it's just so terribly boring.
Except that it doesn't actually pull ahead. And like I said. Crit Fisher Builds favor the Champion. As do dual wield builds. Everything that feeds into more attack rolls actually builds into Champion.
At level 5, With no advantage, Over 2 combats of 5 rounds a piece. Assuming no misses and no advantage on any of them. By Averages the Battle Master is ahead by 10 average damage just assuming that the Champion if we are talking about a d12 weapon. Just white room math this is because where as the battle master is achieving a total of 16 average damage from maneuvers and statistically critting 1 time on average in that time. The Champion has statistically crit 2 times and done 6 average extra damage from each one but one is effectively cancelled out. Completely bare bones. So it does look like the Battle master is ahead.
If you apply something as simple to advantage to this bare bones math however. The Battle master goes down to being 4 average damage ahead for these same to rounds of combat. Just for doubling the number of attack rolls. Not the number of attacks. Just the attack rolls they get to make.
But let's look at it objectively, After that Point the Battle Master requires a rest to get resources back. The Champion doesn't. He can take laps around the camp with the Barbarian, the Moon Druid, the Rogue, and any caster that can't get spell slots or other resources back on that short rest if they aren't healing. And on average thanks to a 1 in 10 crit chance meaning an average of 1 crit a battle because 2 attacks a round for 5 rounds is 10. For each battle after that which a short rest is skipped or isn't possible or each extra 5 turns of combat that take place in those combats that is another average of 6 damage the Champion does, Completely independent of resources.
To use Precision attack to get GWM fully functioning your dropping 16 average damage For better attacks for about 2 rounds that can't crit. The Champion can use the optional flanking that most tables use or potentially other ways to get advantage to do the same thing with a bit more variance and Feed into their Extra Criticals because they are now making more attack rolls. So your Getting More Crits AND GWM damage which overall would make up for missing slightly more and the Battle Master has given up all damage that had them out ahead to begin with.
Two Weapon fighting also leans into Champion. Because Battle masters Resources are still finite and while Two Weapon Fighting max's out at d8 weapon damage and can't have GWM they would instead pick up the Dual Wielder Feat. With Two Weapon Fighting style which would be strange for a dual wielding fighter not to take. Over the course of 5 rounds of combat your looking at a loss of 10-20 average damage but gain between 15 and 25 static damage from just your stat modifier and another 20 average damage from the weapon on the bonus action attack. giving you a 25 average damage lead which completely offsets the bonus damage from GWM without having to offset the attack roll penalties. Even Great Weapon Fighting Style as well you basically break even in average damage. But for the Champion Dual Wielding it's also another 5 attack rolls in the turn to potentially crit with. This means that for the person who's luck is completely on average He's getting 3 crits over 10 rounds of combat at level 5. Even when we offset for the 6 average damage of the Crit by the BM with GWM. The Champion is looking at 6 damage from Crits that the BM cannot make up for with superiority dice damage.
I'm also aware of the typical rebuttal of, The Superiority dice damage increases as you level and you gain more dice. yes you in fact do get these things. But the Champion gets a further improvement to their Crit range to amplify everything else around a crit fishing style as well eventually. The BM eventually gets 6 dice between Rests and 1 die for any fight they don't start a fight with one. Meaning that with the average calculation of a short rest after 2 fights you can potentially squeeze 7 out of this setup at level 15 and that they are d10's at level 10. But at level 15. The Champion now crits over a wider range as well. and is spreading this benefit potentially over more than just one style of combat such as Archery for example with the potential to have taken the appropriate feats for damage benefits there as well.
And this is ignoring all the other ways to build into criticals off of the Champion such as being a Half orc and taking advantage of their Savage Attacks racial feature. This is another resource free change to the bare bones build I mentioned at first that all but wipes out the difference to the bare bones by adding another 6 average damage. 12 average damage if the BM is something other than a half orc itself. Or the Elven Accuracy Champion which doesn't even work with GWM builds but does a lot with dual wielding and archery based crit fisher builds of which the Champion can easily build for both.
Edit: As a Side note. Don't get me wrong. I'm in no way saying it can't be boring for you. That's valid criticism. We are not all going to like the same things and I've never said we have to. But that doesn't necessarily make something bad. It just makes it boring for you.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
The best use of dice is not damage but precision attack and getting advantage which will generally produce better damage across all AC ranges.
TBH your answer is all over the place and it's hard to discern what calculations you are assuming or doing...
Also BM can use it's dice to do more for the party then just damage so versatility is in their favor as well. Giving the paladin another chance to smite or the rogue another sneak attack with commanders strike is something that champ can never do.
Overall champ's issues aren't just worse damage it's less versatile and more boring.
The best use of dice is not damage but precision attack and getting advantage which will generally produce better damage across all AC ranges.
TBH your answer is all over the place and it's hard to discern what calculations you are assuming or doing...
Also BM can use it's dice to do more for the party then just damage so versatility is in their favor as well. Giving the paladin another chance to smite or the rogue another sneak attack with commanders strike is something that champ can never do.
Overall champ's issues aren't just worse damage it's less versatile and more boring.
Except that it's not less versatile. And I believe you and I have had this discussion before.
Commander's Strike can let one of your team mates use their reaction to take an attack to great effect yes. But it does more than just cost you a superiority dice. It also costs you one of your own attacks. So depending on how much damage you can do with your particular BM build you may not actually be gaining any actual damage. You may just be effectively hitting another target without actually moving to it. And you've cost that ally their reaction as a resource for the turn as well meaning that there may or may not be potential for loss of damage from you not attacking and them using their REaction to AoO later in the round. And it's useless if they don't have their reaction available when you use this ability so it's got an additional requirement to use it by technicality unless you just like throwing away the superiority dice telling allies to make attacks they can't make.
This also takes up one of your maneuver's that you get. of which are also limited. At the levels that most people play at they tend to have either 3 or 5. With a few getting to 7 and very very few players ever get to the point where you have 9.
There are 23 options total from you to choose from. So even at max level you have less than half but for a decent number of people you have less than a quarter of the maneuvers. This means that the Versatility your speaking of is situational and not necessarily there. yes you potentially have a couple of cool extra abilities to your attacks. Or can let somebody else make one for you. But the Champion is versatile in other equal ways. Such as partial proficiency in skills and survivability at high levels which can lead towards other indirect things in the way people build their characters such as proficiency in social skills or knowledge skills without expending resources.
So your In a Postion of the fact that if you have Commander's Strike and Precision Attack Your looking at only one other thing that you can do with it until level 7. And it will be the only thing that you have that actually does Damage with your Superiority Die.
And my calculations are exactly what I stated and assumed in that post. That hits always happen. Average Damage. And Frequency of Crits. The very basics of comparing things. It could all be made a lot more complicated but the complications don't actually work out in the favor of either build for the most part. For Example. Giving the Battle Master with GWM advantage means he's going to hit a bit more often as well. And Precise strike is going to help with that. But only against a Champion who is also using GWM even with Advantage to hit a little more often. But GWM doesn't necessarily take advantage of the Champion the Best. So its a comparison in the Battle Masters Favor. Even if we give Critical Damage boosts to the Champion. But if we compare that Battle Master with GWM and Advantage againt the Champion with Two Weapon Fighting and Advantage. it's no longer in the Battle masters Favor. And the Battle Master with GWM and advantage is about maxed out. The only thing you can do to increase it from there is to give it more attacks or potentially pick up one or two feats that the Champion can also take advantage of. The Champion on the other hand that is Crit fishing has potential access to Racials or Feats that either help make Crits more likely or increase the damage when they do happen that the Champion takes better advantage of than the battle Master and something like Dual Wielding is not exactly in the Battle Master's FAvor because all it does is potentially use up the limited resource of superiority dice quicker making for more time where the Battle master isn't actually doing anything unique to the battle master.
So with normal hits champ is behind by 3 points per swing to battlemaster with precision. If they both have ADV its a wash but again BM has reliable ways of getting ADV without relying on teammates while champ does not.
If you add GWM Feat BM pulls ahead hard. Normal attacks with the -5/+10 has BM almost 10 points per swing ahead. ADV Closes that gap between the two to about 5 points.
Now if the BM fighter uses all of their die to precision they will have 5 attacks that they are outdoing the champ in damage.
In best case that means the champ has to overcome 15 points difference per short rest to pull ahead. With a damage difference of 2 in the champs favor without the die that means they have to do 7 attacks or roughly 4 turns more than the BM fighter to pull ahead....this is the BEST case.
The WORST case is if they are rolling normally and the BM gets almost 10 points per swing ahead...that means the Champ has to overcome 50 points of damage difference...or 25 attacks.
So again the champ needs a LOT of extra attacks where the BM is cashed to win out.
My Calculations aren't actually off. I'm showing you objectively what is happening.
Trip attack is all well and good. It's hardly the only way to get advantage. Specially when your not fighting in a vacuum and have a party to work with you. And that's ignoring it's potential drawbacks to other members of your party depending on party composition.
I'm not looking for one to be better than another. I'm aware they both have their place and they can both be quite good. I'm also aware that they both have their place and their usefulness. I can make the math favor either side and I've made mentions of that without going into heavy detail for it in my previous explanations in this thread. But I also left some out. Like I didn't touch on how certain other classes can actually benefit from increased crit ranges.
My Calculations aren't actually off. I'm showing you objectively what is happening.
Trip attack is all well and good. It's hardly the only way to get advantage. Specially when your not fighting in a vacuum and have a party to work with you. And that's ignoring it's potential drawbacks to other members of your party depending on party composition.
I'm not looking for one to be better than another. I'm aware they both have their place and they can both be quite good. I'm also aware that they both have their place and their usefulness. I can make the math favor either side and I've made mentions of that without going into heavy detail for it in my previous explanations in this thread. But I also left some out. Like I didn't touch on how certain other classes can actually benefit from increased crit ranges.
I'm showing my math here to understand but I just don't see it.
I end up using Parry and Brace now, which are giving extra attacks and I feel better than padding a crit for the battlemaster. Being able to CHOOSE when you use this is more important. And typically you are getting a short rest per ~two fights...occasionally you might not be getting that but not in most of my adventures.
So with normal hits champ is behind by 3 points per swing to battlemaster with precision. If they both have ADV its a wash but again BM has reliable ways of getting ADV without relying on teammates while champ does not.
If you add GWM Feat BM pulls ahead hard. Normal attacks with the -5/+10 has BM almost 10 points per swing ahead. ADV Closes that gap between the two to about 5 points.
Now if the BM fighter uses all of their die to precision they will have 5 attacks that they are outdoing the champ in damage.
In best case that means the champ has to overcome 15 points difference per short rest to pull ahead. With a damage difference of 2 in the champs favor without the die that means they have to do 7 attacks or roughly 4 turns more than the BM fighter to pull ahead....this is the BEST case.
The WORST case is if they are rolling normally and the BM gets almost 10 points per swing ahead...that means the Champ has to overcome 50 points of damage difference...or 25 attacks.
So again the champ needs a LOT of extra attacks where the BM is cashed to win out.
It's not an average of 3 damage ahead for BM if your using your superiority dice for damage.
As i said you get 16 average damage out of your 4 dice (4 average damage per dice). Split over even just 3 rounds with 2 attacks a round. Your looking at 2.66 damage so even if I'm super nice and round this up to 3 for easy math. But here's the problem We're talking about a minimum number of attacks that is twice that. So your Talking about 1.33 rounded up to 1.5 damage per attack over those 6 rounds of combat and a total of 12 attacks. But this damage advantage is purely without considering crits what so ever. and this is considering Combat rounds completely in favor of the Battle master. This is not the best case scenario for the Champion in the least. it takes the math entirely being in the favor of the Battle Master for it to have a 15 point lead. If you add even a single thing to the Champion, whether it's a racial ability or another round of Combat. This difference shifts towards the Champion.
1 Crit with a 1d12 weapon is looking at an additional 6 average damage. This means that a single crit over those same 12 attacks is works out to 0.5 average damage per attack. The Champion is the only one to statistically get a Crit in that number of attacks on average. So we subtract that from the 1.5 damage per attack of the Battle Master and we end up with a difference of 1 damage per attack for a total of 12 over those rounds of combat.
Now it's easy to argue this means this is a 12 damage Advantage in the Battle Master's Favor. But it's not. Even somehting Simple as being a half orc suddenly cuts that advantage in half to 6 because We've suddenly doubled the average crit damage that the Champion is doing to spread out over 12 attacks from 6 to 12. Meanings It's an average of 1.0 damage on each attack in the Champions favor. When we subtract this from the Battle Master's 1.5 they are gaining from using all 4 of their Superiority dice for damage we suddenly find that the Battle Master is suddenly only winning out by 0.5 average damage per attack.
This is just the starting point about how your math is wrong. But we can extrapolate this out further. I'm aware that you want to compare GWM purely against GWM to make your claims. But again GWM is not to the greatest advantage of Champion.
Nor does it put BM 10 points of damage ahead per Swing. This is because Champion can use the GWM as well. Precision attack is an average of +4 to hit meaning that even with it your looking at making attacks at a -1 compared to a -5. This is the exact same bonus that the Champion would get out of having Advantage on the attack when we're being somewhat conservative on the math but precision attack is forced to be used an a per attack basis a limited number of times. Advantage is potentially infinite. And Precision attack does not give an increase in damage. Advantage on the other hand does. To both of them. It actually gives more of an advantage to the Champion than it does the Battle Master. But let's go ahead and look at things anyway. the Battle Master for that set number of attacks is going to hit 20% more of the Time with GWM. For ease of math this basically means a bonus of 1 hit out of every 5. If we look at those same 12 attacks of before. This is a total of 20 damage more that GWM is doing. But when we spread that damage across all the hits. Your looking at a mere difference of 1.66 average damage. Let's be nice again. Round this up to 2 Average Damage. Once we round up Your actually only doing 0.5 average more damage per swing with GWM and Precision Attack than you were doing not using GWM and using all 4 of your Superiority Dice for damage. And your only manageing 1.5 more average damage per swing than the Champion is. Even if we go so far as to get picky and add in the average 12 weapon damage from the dice of the weapon attacks. That is only another 1.0 average damage per attack. Meaning that your looking at a difference of Damage of 2.5 damage per attack than the Champion. Assuming the Champion has nothing else to increase their damage what so ever. Even just on Crits. If we again put that Hlf Orc into the Equation. Your now looking at a difference of 2.0 in favor of the Battle Master for a total of 14 damage over 6 rounds of combat. 14 damage mind you that the Battle Master is going to have a hard time increasing.
And all of this. This is with me ignoring Advantage in any capacity up to this point in this post. which again. There are lots of ways to get in Advantage. And your not in a vacuum when your playing. Trip attack is only impressive in a vacuum or in situations where it's valuable to the Fighter without devalueing the attacks of your team mates. It's also highly replacable. Everything from a Monk with stunning strike, To spells that can be cast by team mates, to optional Flanking rules, and even ingrained weaknesses in enemes can give Advantage. Trip attack is not all that special. It's just another one of a lot of options. It is not objective to the comparison. It's a smoke screen that requires us to analyze things in situations only where it is favorable to be used.
So let's get realistic and objective. it doesn't much matter how the Advantage is gotten.
But if we really, really want to talk about Trip attack as a source for it on behalf of the Battle Master we can. Let's look at those same 6 rounds of Combat and GWM. you still only have 4 Superiority Dice. You also cannot do precision attack and Trip Attack as part of the Same attack. Since this is true. Your best bet is to forgo GWM For your first attack that your doing a Tripping attack on each turn your going to use it. This means that for that single attack. Your losing 6 average damage because Tripping attack is only going to increase your average damage by 4 for that attack. Now you can forgo precision attack because advantage is going to give you between +4 and +5 on the large bulk of attacks that your going to make with it. This does solve your problem as far as averages go with landing your attacks so you don't need to use Precision attack and that's fine. Assuming your the only one that needs to attack it. Of course that's assuming it failed it's strength roll And didn't simply resist your Trip Attack. What this actually means is actually to the best advantage of the Battle Master happens to be true for the Champion as well. The Best source of Advantage for either fighter is for Advantage to come from a source other than an attack from the Fighter. Whether that is a condition on the battle field, a team mate, or an enemy weakness. This is the only way that they are going to fully apply damage. Trip attack is only superior to the option of Forgoing an attack entirely to push an enemy into a prone state to be able to get advantage because you can now do some damage and hopefully create the prone state as well. (This is the bread and butter philosophy behind the monks stunning strike in fact, but stunning strike potentially does it better.) And forgoing an attack to Push them prone is only advantageous over making attacks when you either need to severely slow an enemy down or you need advantage to be able to hit them much at all in the first place. Otherwise your usually better off doing some damage over all of your attacks than a bunch of damage on a few of your attacks.
But again. Even with Considering Advantage. this is all assuming they are both using GWM. which again is not the most favorable Fighting Style to the Champion. But even using a Fighting Style that actually Favors the Battle master and considering details in a light that is mostly favorable to the Battle master. Like not considering other things that increase Critical Damage Specificially. The Battle Master is barely ahead. It's only managing 14 Damage on average per short rest ahead of the Champion when basically all of the variables are in the Battle Master's Favor.
Again if we consider that GWM battle master against something that is in the Champions favor. Such as a Dual Wielder with Two Weapon Fighting Style. We eat into that 14 damage lead with every additional Crit that the Champion Gets. now the Average damage of the Crit drops a bit for Dual Wielder. it drops from 6 to 4. We also have the issue that the Average weapon damage per hit drops in a like manner. But this is deceptive as to being worse. Because we are getting more attacks and we are getting more crits than the GWM Battle master is which actually brings the average damage up for the Champion. The third hit more than makes up for the loss of damage from the smaller weapon because the third hit applies extra static damage from the stat modifier.
I'm aware that Dual Wielding is probably where your claiming the +10 per attack comes from. But this simply isn't true with the pieces we've got going. The bonus Action attack is doing an average of 9 damage a turn. This means that your getting an average of 6.5 Damage out of GWM per attack if this is all there was to consider. But again. Dual Wielding is practically adding in another Crit attack into those 6 short rounds for the Champion that the Battle Master is not getting. This is lowers it to 5.5 average damage. But Dual Wielder is hardly done at that point if we are making a fair comparison of a Build leaning in Champions favor in any honest capacity. Just adding Half Orc turns that into 4.5 per attack. Advantage on top of that not only now puts the Champion ahead by +4 to +5 but was never suffering a penalty to begin with on attacks meaning that the Dual Wielder is hitting 25-30% better than the GWM Battle Master is. But that also averages out to 1.5 more Crit's in the Champions favor (i'm balancing here by knocking a little out of the crit chance to balance for the 2 attacks average I added earlier). So we can narrow the Gap to 3.5 per attack just from the Extra Crit. i'm going to leave this hanging at this point... seemingly in the Battle Master's Favor... And for a good reason and to address something.
So this is where we run into a bit of split in 3 possibilities for theoretically mathing this. We could Assume the Battle Master is going to use Precision attack so they don't miss those attacks and not lose out on more DPS and that the Advantage is coming from some outside source that we don't have to worry about and are continuing to get advantage from that the Champion is already leaning into using. Or We can do what you want and assume Trip Attack was used because it's so valuable and it means that we should be using it because we are relying on the stance that Maneuvers are superior and it shows Versatility because the Battle Master can do it for himself. Precision attack and assuming that Advantage came from some universal place is more Favorable to the Battle Master. Because it doesn't gain damage but it doesn't lose damage. Trip attack actually favors the Champion if we make the assumption that's where the Advantage for the battle master is coming from instead of some universal outside source. This is because it can't cover all 6 rounds. This is important because this means 4 attacks where the Dual Wielder isn't necessarily hitting just hitting 25-30% better. This is is where for 2 turns the Champion is hitting 45-50% better or the Battle Master Dumps GWM for those two turns. Dumping GWM for 2 turns means a Difference in favor of the Champion of 7 damage for each of those two turns. Keeping trying to use GWM on average means that an entire attack is lost for the Battle Master and the difference is instead going to be a loss of more like 17 damage for each of those turns.
The Precision Strike method and outside Advantage keeps us at our current 3.5 average damage per hit basically. Trip attacking until we run out and then stopping GWM ends up at drops this number to 2.0 average damage per hit. And continuing to try to use GWM at that point knocks it down to 0.5 average damage per hit. This is an important tipping point for all of the math as well. Because for each additional round. It's going to be like this with these considerations. Each additional turn that we continue the math loses the battle master at least 0.5 DPS of it's lead on the champion. Something to keep in mind, Even Precision Strike and outside Advantage cannot hold up more than 2 more rounds at it's maximum. And Continuing to use GWM under that kind of deficit loses all advantage in less than 2 turns.
This is what I mean about white rooming and biasing the math when I tell you this. I'm showing you that I can bias the math in all kinds of ways to make the side that I want to win do just that if that's my end goal. But that is not my end goal. And none of these end results are actually entirely indicative of what can happen for these two characters when it comes to what happens in actual combat. They are best case scenario's ultimately. It's easy to derail both of them. Something as simple as an enemy making a save against something or Using a Precision Strike and still missing because your not quite sure exactly what the enemies AC is or because the die rolled a 1 or something happens all of the time. They may be using the middle of the road numbers to show damage results but they aren't actually middle of the road results. These are the results of that walking phenomenon that is the truely average person. which is more of a magical unicorn than finding people on either extreme is. And the people on either extreme are going to mess with the results in all kinds of unpredictable ways as well.
An extremely unlucky person might have more control with a Battle Master but get exceedingly low damage numbers or an inordinate number of misses that makes these averages look like a good day. While an extremely lucky person with a Champion is going to blow almost any calculations we make out of the water and seem like they are doing poorly if this is all that they do even without advantage and taking penalties from GWM and the whole 9 yards.
So the cold hard reality is these small differences in damage. Don't make one objectively worse. Particularly not for the broad range of typical players that aren't some kind of phenomenon level possesser of good, bad, or average luck. And this white room mathing does not make one objectively better than the other because it's usually playing favorites. Often because a person has an outcome they want and they build for that outcome.
I end up using Parry and Brace now, which are giving extra attacks and I feel better than padding a crit for the battlemaster. Being able to CHOOSE when you use this is more important. And typically you are getting a short rest per ~two fights...occasionally you might not be getting that but not in most of my adventures.
Parry does not give extra attacks or even extra damage. It is a damage mitigation maneuver. And Brace doesn't give extra attacks either. It's just another way to get a reaction attack and not even a unique one. It's basically the same thing that you get from PAM.
I end up using Parry and Brace now, which are giving extra attacks and I feel better than padding a crit for the battlemaster. Being able to CHOOSE when you use this is more important. And typically you are getting a short rest per ~two fights...occasionally you might not be getting that but not in most of my adventures.
Parry does not give extra attacks or even extra damage. It is a damage mitigation maneuver. And Brace doesn't give extra attacks either. It's just another way to get a reaction attack and not even a unique one. It's basically the same thing that you get from PAM.
"Another way to get AoO" Is absolutely another attack....Its extending your ability to use an attack that normally you might not get.
I end up using Parry and Brace now, which are giving extra attacks and I feel better than padding a crit for the battlemaster. Being able to CHOOSE when you use this is more important. And typically you are getting a short rest per ~two fights...occasionally you might not be getting that but not in most of my adventures.
Parry does not give extra attacks or even extra damage. It is a damage mitigation maneuver. And Brace doesn't give extra attacks either. It's just another way to get a reaction attack and not even a unique one. It's basically the same thing that you get from PAM.
"Another way to get AoO" Is absolutely another attack....Its extending your ability to use an attack that normally you might not get.
that should have read Riposte for the extra attack...
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
Quick Toss is literally an extra attack with your bonus action....
Then battlemaster with the style with and without the precision die.... That's it.
It's absolutely 3 difference without the die as shown.
Again. That is a build and white room math that favors the Battle Master. And yet it's still a relatively low difference. So Whether you mean to or not. your cherry picking a situation that is against the Champion to call the Champion bad and your doing it over an acceptably small margin. That does not necessarily exist in actual play either.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
Quick Toss is literally an extra attack with your bonus action....
Quick Toss is not an Extra Attack. Quick toss is just making use of your Bonus action in a style similar to Dual Wielder or any other number of sources of such bonus action attacks. It is in no way extra. And it also blocks you from doing anything else with your Bonus Action. Not that Fighters Always have things to do with their bonus action anyway so it may go basically un-used on many of their average turns. having nothing to do normally with their Bonus Actions is exactly why things like PAM are so popular. Not only is it a repeatedly usable bonus action. But it happens to do a bit of damage as well. Nice for a bit more DPR but in no way extra.
If you want an Example of an Actual Extra Attack. Look no Further than the Echo Knight Unleash Incarnation is quite literally a small handful of additional attacks based upon your charisma modifier.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
Quick Toss is literally an extra attack with your bonus action....
Quick Toss is not an Extra Attack. Quick toss is just making use of your Bonus action in a style similar to Dual Wielder or any other number of sources of such bonus action attacks. It is in no way extra. And it also blocks you from doing anything else with your Bonus Action. Not that Fighters Always have things to do with their bonus action anyway so it may go basically un-used on many of their average turns. having nothing to do normally with their Bonus Actions is exactly why things like PAM are so popular. Not only is it a repeatedly usable bonus action. But it happens to do a bit of damage as well. Nice for a bit more DPR but in no way extra.
If you want an Example of an Actual Extra Attack. Look no Further than the Echo Knight Unleash Incarnation is quite literally a small handful of additional attacks based upon your charisma modifier.
Then battlemaster with the style with and without the precision die.... That's it.
It's absolutely 3 difference without the die as shown.
Again. That is a build and white room math that favors the Battle Master. And yet it's still a relatively low difference. So Whether you mean to or not. your cherry picking a situation that is against the Champion to call the Champion bad and your doing it over an acceptably small margin. That does not necessarily exist in actual play either.
It's just straight up comparison of the numbers....
With and without the die.
The champ only does about 2 points of damage more than the battlemaster without any die on average.
Because of this it takes a lot of attacks for champion to close the gap created by the die.
Then battlemaster with the style with and without the precision die.... That's it.
It's absolutely 3 difference without the die as shown.
Again. That is a build and white room math that favors the Battle Master. And yet it's still a relatively low difference. So Whether you mean to or not. your cherry picking a situation that is against the Champion to call the Champion bad and your doing it over an acceptably small margin. That does not necessarily exist in actual play either.
It's just straight up comparison of the numbers....
With and without the die.
The champ only does about 2 points of damage more than the battlemaster without any die on average.
Because of this it takes a lot of attacks for champion to close the gap created by the die.
It takes a lot of extra attacks for the Champion to close the gap When things are considered in favor of the Battle Master. But here's the thing. Each round that goes on after the Battle Master has run out. Your getting more than one attack to close that gap. And if they can close that gap even if it's somewhat slow. That means eventually they are going to over take. How fast that happens is based upon the disparity. If there is a disparity if we continue on when things are in the Battle Master's Favor. Then it's going to be bigger when things are in the Champions favor and happen much faster.
The Biased answer is trying to say the one we like best is going to win.
The Unbiased answer is the one that is inevitably going to end up in the lead eventually is going to win.
But the actual balanced and fair answer is that they are equal but their strengths are in slightly different places. Which has been my point all along.
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
Quick Toss is literally an extra attack with your bonus action....
Quick Toss is not an Extra Attack. Quick toss is just making use of your Bonus action in a style similar to Dual Wielder or any other number of sources of such bonus action attacks. It is in no way extra. And it also blocks you from doing anything else with your Bonus Action. Not that Fighters Always have things to do with their bonus action anyway so it may go basically un-used on many of their average turns. having nothing to do normally with their Bonus Actions is exactly why things like PAM are so popular. Not only is it a repeatedly usable bonus action. But it happens to do a bit of damage as well. Nice for a bit more DPR but in no way extra.
If you want an Example of an Actual Extra Attack. Look no Further than the Echo Knight Unleash Incarnation is quite literally a small handful of additional attacks based upon your charisma modifier.
It's an extra attack you wouldn't other wise get.
I don't know why my error correct turned Constitution into Charisma in my previous post. But I didn't catch that before.
Anyway. it's not an extra attack you wouldn't otherwise get. There are lots of ways to get bonus action attacks. Everything from picking up various abilities to just dual wielding which is baked into the game and literally every character can do to lesser or greater success straight out of the gate. There is nothing extra about it.
However. Echo Knight is an extra attack. It is literally an attack that they get that there is no real other way to get that exists outside of the various usages of the action economy of a normal turn. The Echo Knight can still pick up PAM or use Quick Toss, Or Dual Wield or a bunch of other things on top of that set number of actual set number of extra attacks from their ability.
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Except that it doesn't actually pull ahead. And like I said. Crit Fisher Builds favor the Champion. As do dual wield builds. Everything that feeds into more attack rolls actually builds into Champion.
At level 5, With no advantage, Over 2 combats of 5 rounds a piece. Assuming no misses and no advantage on any of them. By Averages the Battle Master is ahead by 10 average damage just assuming that the Champion if we are talking about a d12 weapon. Just white room math this is because where as the battle master is achieving a total of 16 average damage from maneuvers and statistically critting 1 time on average in that time. The Champion has statistically crit 2 times and done 6 average extra damage from each one but one is effectively cancelled out. Completely bare bones. So it does look like the Battle master is ahead.
If you apply something as simple to advantage to this bare bones math however. The Battle master goes down to being 4 average damage ahead for these same to rounds of combat. Just for doubling the number of attack rolls. Not the number of attacks. Just the attack rolls they get to make.
But let's look at it objectively, After that Point the Battle Master requires a rest to get resources back. The Champion doesn't. He can take laps around the camp with the Barbarian, the Moon Druid, the Rogue, and any caster that can't get spell slots or other resources back on that short rest if they aren't healing. And on average thanks to a 1 in 10 crit chance meaning an average of 1 crit a battle because 2 attacks a round for 5 rounds is 10. For each battle after that which a short rest is skipped or isn't possible or each extra 5 turns of combat that take place in those combats that is another average of 6 damage the Champion does, Completely independent of resources.
To use Precision attack to get GWM fully functioning your dropping 16 average damage For better attacks for about 2 rounds that can't crit. The Champion can use the optional flanking that most tables use or potentially other ways to get advantage to do the same thing with a bit more variance and Feed into their Extra Criticals because they are now making more attack rolls. So your Getting More Crits AND GWM damage which overall would make up for missing slightly more and the Battle Master has given up all damage that had them out ahead to begin with.
Two Weapon fighting also leans into Champion. Because Battle masters Resources are still finite and while Two Weapon Fighting max's out at d8 weapon damage and can't have GWM they would instead pick up the Dual Wielder Feat. With Two Weapon Fighting style which would be strange for a dual wielding fighter not to take. Over the course of 5 rounds of combat your looking at a loss of 10-20 average damage but gain between 15 and 25 static damage from just your stat modifier and another 20 average damage from the weapon on the bonus action attack. giving you a 25 average damage lead which completely offsets the bonus damage from GWM without having to offset the attack roll penalties. Even Great Weapon Fighting Style as well you basically break even in average damage. But for the Champion Dual Wielding it's also another 5 attack rolls in the turn to potentially crit with. This means that for the person who's luck is completely on average He's getting 3 crits over 10 rounds of combat at level 5. Even when we offset for the 6 average damage of the Crit by the BM with GWM. The Champion is looking at 6 damage from Crits that the BM cannot make up for with superiority dice damage.
I'm also aware of the typical rebuttal of, The Superiority dice damage increases as you level and you gain more dice. yes you in fact do get these things. But the Champion gets a further improvement to their Crit range to amplify everything else around a crit fishing style as well eventually. The BM eventually gets 6 dice between Rests and 1 die for any fight they don't start a fight with one. Meaning that with the average calculation of a short rest after 2 fights you can potentially squeeze 7 out of this setup at level 15 and that they are d10's at level 10. But at level 15. The Champion now crits over a wider range as well. and is spreading this benefit potentially over more than just one style of combat such as Archery for example with the potential to have taken the appropriate feats for damage benefits there as well.
And this is ignoring all the other ways to build into criticals off of the Champion such as being a Half orc and taking advantage of their Savage Attacks racial feature. This is another resource free change to the bare bones build I mentioned at first that all but wipes out the difference to the bare bones by adding another 6 average damage. 12 average damage if the BM is something other than a half orc itself. Or the Elven Accuracy Champion which doesn't even work with GWM builds but does a lot with dual wielding and archery based crit fisher builds of which the Champion can easily build for both.
Edit: As a Side note. Don't get me wrong. I'm in no way saying it can't be boring for you. That's valid criticism. We are not all going to like the same things and I've never said we have to. But that doesn't necessarily make something bad. It just makes it boring for you.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
The best use of dice is not damage but precision attack and getting advantage which will generally produce better damage across all AC ranges.
TBH your answer is all over the place and it's hard to discern what calculations you are assuming or doing...
Also BM can use it's dice to do more for the party then just damage so versatility is in their favor as well. Giving the paladin another chance to smite or the rogue another sneak attack with commanders strike is something that champ can never do.
Overall champ's issues aren't just worse damage it's less versatile and more boring.
Except that it's not less versatile. And I believe you and I have had this discussion before.
Commander's Strike can let one of your team mates use their reaction to take an attack to great effect yes. But it does more than just cost you a superiority dice. It also costs you one of your own attacks. So depending on how much damage you can do with your particular BM build you may not actually be gaining any actual damage. You may just be effectively hitting another target without actually moving to it. And you've cost that ally their reaction as a resource for the turn as well meaning that there may or may not be potential for loss of damage from you not attacking and them using their REaction to AoO later in the round. And it's useless if they don't have their reaction available when you use this ability so it's got an additional requirement to use it by technicality unless you just like throwing away the superiority dice telling allies to make attacks they can't make.
This also takes up one of your maneuver's that you get. of which are also limited. At the levels that most people play at they tend to have either 3 or 5. With a few getting to 7 and very very few players ever get to the point where you have 9.
There are 23 options total from you to choose from. So even at max level you have less than half but for a decent number of people you have less than a quarter of the maneuvers. This means that the Versatility your speaking of is situational and not necessarily there. yes you potentially have a couple of cool extra abilities to your attacks. Or can let somebody else make one for you. But the Champion is versatile in other equal ways. Such as partial proficiency in skills and survivability at high levels which can lead towards other indirect things in the way people build their characters such as proficiency in social skills or knowledge skills without expending resources.
So your In a Postion of the fact that if you have Commander's Strike and Precision Attack Your looking at only one other thing that you can do with it until level 7. And it will be the only thing that you have that actually does Damage with your Superiority Die.
And my calculations are exactly what I stated and assumed in that post. That hits always happen. Average Damage. And Frequency of Crits. The very basics of comparing things. It could all be made a lot more complicated but the complications don't actually work out in the favor of either build for the most part. For Example. Giving the Battle Master with GWM advantage means he's going to hit a bit more often as well. And Precise strike is going to help with that. But only against a Champion who is also using GWM even with Advantage to hit a little more often. But GWM doesn't necessarily take advantage of the Champion the Best. So its a comparison in the Battle Masters Favor. Even if we give Critical Damage boosts to the Champion. But if we compare that Battle Master with GWM and Advantage againt the Champion with Two Weapon Fighting and Advantage. it's no longer in the Battle masters Favor. And the Battle Master with GWM and advantage is about maxed out. The only thing you can do to increase it from there is to give it more attacks or potentially pick up one or two feats that the Champion can also take advantage of. The Champion on the other hand that is Crit fishing has potential access to Racials or Feats that either help make Crits more likely or increase the damage when they do happen that the Champion takes better advantage of than the battle Master and something like Dual Wielding is not exactly in the Battle Master's FAvor because all it does is potentially use up the limited resource of superiority dice quicker making for more time where the Battle master isn't actually doing anything unique to the battle master.
Then I do not know what to say...your calcs must be off...
Precision attack + better chance at ADV (Trip attack, etc..) just wins out.
https://imgur.com/a/pxLs0zU
So with normal hits champ is behind by 3 points per swing to battlemaster with precision. If they both have ADV its a wash but again BM has reliable ways of getting ADV without relying on teammates while champ does not.
If you add GWM Feat BM pulls ahead hard. Normal attacks with the -5/+10 has BM almost 10 points per swing ahead.
ADV Closes that gap between the two to about 5 points.
Now if the BM fighter uses all of their die to precision they will have 5 attacks that they are outdoing the champ in damage.
In best case that means the champ has to overcome 15 points difference per short rest to pull ahead. With a damage difference of 2 in the champs favor without the die that means they have to do 7 attacks or roughly 4 turns more than the BM fighter to pull ahead....this is the BEST case.
The WORST case is if they are rolling normally and the BM gets almost 10 points per swing ahead...that means the Champ has to overcome 50 points of damage difference...or 25 attacks.
So again the champ needs a LOT of extra attacks where the BM is cashed to win out.
Better chance at Advantage? Not really.
My Calculations aren't actually off. I'm showing you objectively what is happening.
Trip attack is all well and good. It's hardly the only way to get advantage. Specially when your not fighting in a vacuum and have a party to work with you. And that's ignoring it's potential drawbacks to other members of your party depending on party composition.
I'm not looking for one to be better than another. I'm aware they both have their place and they can both be quite good. I'm also aware that they both have their place and their usefulness. I can make the math favor either side and I've made mentions of that without going into heavy detail for it in my previous explanations in this thread. But I also left some out. Like I didn't touch on how certain other classes can actually benefit from increased crit ranges.
I'm showing my math here to understand but I just don't see it.
I end up using Parry and Brace now, which are giving extra attacks and I feel better than padding a crit for the battlemaster. Being able to CHOOSE when you use this is more important. And typically you are getting a short rest per ~two fights...occasionally you might not be getting that but not in most of my adventures.
It's not an average of 3 damage ahead for BM if your using your superiority dice for damage.
As i said you get 16 average damage out of your 4 dice (4 average damage per dice). Split over even just 3 rounds with 2 attacks a round. Your looking at 2.66 damage so even if I'm super nice and round this up to 3 for easy math. But here's the problem We're talking about a minimum number of attacks that is twice that. So your Talking about 1.33 rounded up to 1.5 damage per attack over those 6 rounds of combat and a total of 12 attacks. But this damage advantage is purely without considering crits what so ever. and this is considering Combat rounds completely in favor of the Battle master. This is not the best case scenario for the Champion in the least. it takes the math entirely being in the favor of the Battle Master for it to have a 15 point lead. If you add even a single thing to the Champion, whether it's a racial ability or another round of Combat. This difference shifts towards the Champion.
1 Crit with a 1d12 weapon is looking at an additional 6 average damage. This means that a single crit over those same 12 attacks is works out to 0.5 average damage per attack. The Champion is the only one to statistically get a Crit in that number of attacks on average. So we subtract that from the 1.5 damage per attack of the Battle Master and we end up with a difference of 1 damage per attack for a total of 12 over those rounds of combat.
Now it's easy to argue this means this is a 12 damage Advantage in the Battle Master's Favor. But it's not. Even somehting Simple as being a half orc suddenly cuts that advantage in half to 6 because We've suddenly doubled the average crit damage that the Champion is doing to spread out over 12 attacks from 6 to 12. Meanings It's an average of 1.0 damage on each attack in the Champions favor. When we subtract this from the Battle Master's 1.5 they are gaining from using all 4 of their Superiority dice for damage we suddenly find that the Battle Master is suddenly only winning out by 0.5 average damage per attack.
This is just the starting point about how your math is wrong. But we can extrapolate this out further. I'm aware that you want to compare GWM purely against GWM to make your claims. But again GWM is not to the greatest advantage of Champion.
Nor does it put BM 10 points of damage ahead per Swing. This is because Champion can use the GWM as well. Precision attack is an average of +4 to hit meaning that even with it your looking at making attacks at a -1 compared to a -5. This is the exact same bonus that the Champion would get out of having Advantage on the attack when we're being somewhat conservative on the math but precision attack is forced to be used an a per attack basis a limited number of times. Advantage is potentially infinite. And Precision attack does not give an increase in damage. Advantage on the other hand does. To both of them. It actually gives more of an advantage to the Champion than it does the Battle Master. But let's go ahead and look at things anyway. the Battle Master for that set number of attacks is going to hit 20% more of the Time with GWM. For ease of math this basically means a bonus of 1 hit out of every 5. If we look at those same 12 attacks of before. This is a total of 20 damage more that GWM is doing. But when we spread that damage across all the hits. Your looking at a mere difference of 1.66 average damage. Let's be nice again. Round this up to 2 Average Damage. Once we round up Your actually only doing 0.5 average more damage per swing with GWM and Precision Attack than you were doing not using GWM and using all 4 of your Superiority Dice for damage. And your only manageing 1.5 more average damage per swing than the Champion is. Even if we go so far as to get picky and add in the average 12 weapon damage from the dice of the weapon attacks. That is only another 1.0 average damage per attack. Meaning that your looking at a difference of Damage of 2.5 damage per attack than the Champion. Assuming the Champion has nothing else to increase their damage what so ever. Even just on Crits. If we again put that Hlf Orc into the Equation. Your now looking at a difference of 2.0 in favor of the Battle Master for a total of 14 damage over 6 rounds of combat. 14 damage mind you that the Battle Master is going to have a hard time increasing.
And all of this. This is with me ignoring Advantage in any capacity up to this point in this post. which again. There are lots of ways to get in Advantage. And your not in a vacuum when your playing. Trip attack is only impressive in a vacuum or in situations where it's valuable to the Fighter without devalueing the attacks of your team mates. It's also highly replacable. Everything from a Monk with stunning strike, To spells that can be cast by team mates, to optional Flanking rules, and even ingrained weaknesses in enemes can give Advantage. Trip attack is not all that special. It's just another one of a lot of options. It is not objective to the comparison. It's a smoke screen that requires us to analyze things in situations only where it is favorable to be used.
So let's get realistic and objective. it doesn't much matter how the Advantage is gotten.
But if we really, really want to talk about Trip attack as a source for it on behalf of the Battle Master we can. Let's look at those same 6 rounds of Combat and GWM. you still only have 4 Superiority Dice. You also cannot do precision attack and Trip Attack as part of the Same attack. Since this is true. Your best bet is to forgo GWM For your first attack that your doing a Tripping attack on each turn your going to use it. This means that for that single attack. Your losing 6 average damage because Tripping attack is only going to increase your average damage by 4 for that attack. Now you can forgo precision attack because advantage is going to give you between +4 and +5 on the large bulk of attacks that your going to make with it. This does solve your problem as far as averages go with landing your attacks so you don't need to use Precision attack and that's fine. Assuming your the only one that needs to attack it. Of course that's assuming it failed it's strength roll And didn't simply resist your Trip Attack. What this actually means is actually to the best advantage of the Battle Master happens to be true for the Champion as well. The Best source of Advantage for either fighter is for Advantage to come from a source other than an attack from the Fighter. Whether that is a condition on the battle field, a team mate, or an enemy weakness. This is the only way that they are going to fully apply damage. Trip attack is only superior to the option of Forgoing an attack entirely to push an enemy into a prone state to be able to get advantage because you can now do some damage and hopefully create the prone state as well. (This is the bread and butter philosophy behind the monks stunning strike in fact, but stunning strike potentially does it better.) And forgoing an attack to Push them prone is only advantageous over making attacks when you either need to severely slow an enemy down or you need advantage to be able to hit them much at all in the first place. Otherwise your usually better off doing some damage over all of your attacks than a bunch of damage on a few of your attacks.
But again. Even with Considering Advantage. this is all assuming they are both using GWM. which again is not the most favorable Fighting Style to the Champion. But even using a Fighting Style that actually Favors the Battle master and considering details in a light that is mostly favorable to the Battle master. Like not considering other things that increase Critical Damage Specificially. The Battle Master is barely ahead. It's only managing 14 Damage on average per short rest ahead of the Champion when basically all of the variables are in the Battle Master's Favor.
Again if we consider that GWM battle master against something that is in the Champions favor. Such as a Dual Wielder with Two Weapon Fighting Style. We eat into that 14 damage lead with every additional Crit that the Champion Gets. now the Average damage of the Crit drops a bit for Dual Wielder. it drops from 6 to 4. We also have the issue that the Average weapon damage per hit drops in a like manner. But this is deceptive as to being worse. Because we are getting more attacks and we are getting more crits than the GWM Battle master is which actually brings the average damage up for the Champion. The third hit more than makes up for the loss of damage from the smaller weapon because the third hit applies extra static damage from the stat modifier.
I'm aware that Dual Wielding is probably where your claiming the +10 per attack comes from. But this simply isn't true with the pieces we've got going. The bonus Action attack is doing an average of 9 damage a turn. This means that your getting an average of 6.5 Damage out of GWM per attack if this is all there was to consider. But again. Dual Wielding is practically adding in another Crit attack into those 6 short rounds for the Champion that the Battle Master is not getting. This is lowers it to 5.5 average damage. But Dual Wielder is hardly done at that point if we are making a fair comparison of a Build leaning in Champions favor in any honest capacity. Just adding Half Orc turns that into 4.5 per attack. Advantage on top of that not only now puts the Champion ahead by +4 to +5 but was never suffering a penalty to begin with on attacks meaning that the Dual Wielder is hitting 25-30% better than the GWM Battle Master is. But that also averages out to 1.5 more Crit's in the Champions favor (i'm balancing here by knocking a little out of the crit chance to balance for the 2 attacks average I added earlier). So we can narrow the Gap to 3.5 per attack just from the Extra Crit. i'm going to leave this hanging at this point... seemingly in the Battle Master's Favor... And for a good reason and to address something.
So this is where we run into a bit of split in 3 possibilities for theoretically mathing this. We could Assume the Battle Master is going to use Precision attack so they don't miss those attacks and not lose out on more DPS and that the Advantage is coming from some outside source that we don't have to worry about and are continuing to get advantage from that the Champion is already leaning into using. Or We can do what you want and assume Trip Attack was used because it's so valuable and it means that we should be using it because we are relying on the stance that Maneuvers are superior and it shows Versatility because the Battle Master can do it for himself. Precision attack and assuming that Advantage came from some universal place is more Favorable to the Battle Master. Because it doesn't gain damage but it doesn't lose damage. Trip attack actually favors the Champion if we make the assumption that's where the Advantage for the battle master is coming from instead of some universal outside source. This is because it can't cover all 6 rounds. This is important because this means 4 attacks where the Dual Wielder isn't necessarily hitting just hitting 25-30% better. This is is where for 2 turns the Champion is hitting 45-50% better or the Battle Master Dumps GWM for those two turns. Dumping GWM for 2 turns means a Difference in favor of the Champion of 7 damage for each of those two turns. Keeping trying to use GWM on average means that an entire attack is lost for the Battle Master and the difference is instead going to be a loss of more like 17 damage for each of those turns.
The Precision Strike method and outside Advantage keeps us at our current 3.5 average damage per hit basically. Trip attacking until we run out and then stopping GWM ends up at drops this number to 2.0 average damage per hit. And continuing to try to use GWM at that point knocks it down to 0.5 average damage per hit. This is an important tipping point for all of the math as well. Because for each additional round. It's going to be like this with these considerations. Each additional turn that we continue the math loses the battle master at least 0.5 DPS of it's lead on the champion. Something to keep in mind, Even Precision Strike and outside Advantage cannot hold up more than 2 more rounds at it's maximum. And Continuing to use GWM under that kind of deficit loses all advantage in less than 2 turns.
This is what I mean about white rooming and biasing the math when I tell you this. I'm showing you that I can bias the math in all kinds of ways to make the side that I want to win do just that if that's my end goal. But that is not my end goal. And none of these end results are actually entirely indicative of what can happen for these two characters when it comes to what happens in actual combat. They are best case scenario's ultimately. It's easy to derail both of them. Something as simple as an enemy making a save against something or Using a Precision Strike and still missing because your not quite sure exactly what the enemies AC is or because the die rolled a 1 or something happens all of the time. They may be using the middle of the road numbers to show damage results but they aren't actually middle of the road results. These are the results of that walking phenomenon that is the truely average person. which is more of a magical unicorn than finding people on either extreme is. And the people on either extreme are going to mess with the results in all kinds of unpredictable ways as well.
An extremely unlucky person might have more control with a Battle Master but get exceedingly low damage numbers or an inordinate number of misses that makes these averages look like a good day. While an extremely lucky person with a Champion is going to blow almost any calculations we make out of the water and seem like they are doing poorly if this is all that they do even without advantage and taking penalties from GWM and the whole 9 yards.
So the cold hard reality is these small differences in damage. Don't make one objectively worse. Particularly not for the broad range of typical players that aren't some kind of phenomenon level possesser of good, bad, or average luck. And this white room mathing does not make one objectively better than the other because it's usually playing favorites. Often because a person has an outcome they want and they build for that outcome.
Parry does not give extra attacks or even extra damage. It is a damage mitigation maneuver. And Brace doesn't give extra attacks either. It's just another way to get a reaction attack and not even a unique one. It's basically the same thing that you get from PAM.
Just look at the numbers again....
It's just greataxe plus the style with champ
Then battlemaster with the style with and without the precision die.... That's it.
It's absolutely 3 difference without the die as shown.
"Another way to get AoO" Is absolutely another attack....Its extending your ability to use an attack that normally you might not get.
that should have read Riposte for the extra attack...
Quick Toss is literally an extra attack with your bonus action....
Again. That is a build and white room math that favors the Battle Master. And yet it's still a relatively low difference. So Whether you mean to or not. your cherry picking a situation that is against the Champion to call the Champion bad and your doing it over an acceptably small margin. That does not necessarily exist in actual play either.
Quick Toss is not an Extra Attack. Quick toss is just making use of your Bonus action in a style similar to Dual Wielder or any other number of sources of such bonus action attacks. It is in no way extra. And it also blocks you from doing anything else with your Bonus Action. Not that Fighters Always have things to do with their bonus action anyway so it may go basically un-used on many of their average turns. having nothing to do normally with their Bonus Actions is exactly why things like PAM are so popular. Not only is it a repeatedly usable bonus action. But it happens to do a bit of damage as well. Nice for a bit more DPR but in no way extra.
If you want an Example of an Actual Extra Attack. Look no Further than the Echo Knight Unleash Incarnation is quite literally a small handful of additional attacks based upon your charisma modifier.
It's an extra attack you wouldn't other wise get.
It's just straight up comparison of the numbers....
With and without the die.
The champ only does about 2 points of damage more than the battlemaster without any die on average.
Because of this it takes a lot of attacks for champion to close the gap created by the die.
It takes a lot of extra attacks for the Champion to close the gap When things are considered in favor of the Battle Master. But here's the thing. Each round that goes on after the Battle Master has run out. Your getting more than one attack to close that gap. And if they can close that gap even if it's somewhat slow. That means eventually they are going to over take. How fast that happens is based upon the disparity. If there is a disparity if we continue on when things are in the Battle Master's Favor. Then it's going to be bigger when things are in the Champions favor and happen much faster.
The Biased answer is trying to say the one we like best is going to win.
The Unbiased answer is the one that is inevitably going to end up in the lead eventually is going to win.
But the actual balanced and fair answer is that they are equal but their strengths are in slightly different places. Which has been my point all along.
I don't know why my error correct turned Constitution into Charisma in my previous post. But I didn't catch that before.
Anyway. it's not an extra attack you wouldn't otherwise get. There are lots of ways to get bonus action attacks. Everything from picking up various abilities to just dual wielding which is baked into the game and literally every character can do to lesser or greater success straight out of the gate. There is nothing extra about it.
However. Echo Knight is an extra attack. It is literally an attack that they get that there is no real other way to get that exists outside of the various usages of the action economy of a normal turn. The Echo Knight can still pick up PAM or use Quick Toss, Or Dual Wield or a bunch of other things on top of that set number of actual set number of extra attacks from their ability.