I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
Quick Toss is literally an extra attack with your bonus action....
Quick Toss is not an Extra Attack. Quick toss is just making use of your Bonus action in a style similar to Dual Wielder or any other number of sources of such bonus action attacks. It is in no way extra. And it also blocks you from doing anything else with your Bonus Action. Not that Fighters Always have things to do with their bonus action anyway so it may go basically un-used on many of their average turns. having nothing to do normally with their Bonus Actions is exactly why things like PAM are so popular. Not only is it a repeatedly usable bonus action. But it happens to do a bit of damage as well. Nice for a bit more DPR but in no way extra.
If you want an Example of an Actual Extra Attack. Look no Further than the Echo Knight Unleash Incarnation is quite literally a small handful of additional attacks based upon your charisma modifier.
It's an extra attack you wouldn't other wise get.
I don't know why my error correct turned Constitution into Charisma in my previous post. But I didn't catch that before.
Anyway. it's not an extra attack you wouldn't otherwise get. There are lots of ways to get bonus action attacks. Everything from picking up various abilities to just dual wielding which is baked into the game and literally every character can do to lesser or greater success straight out of the gate. There is nothing extra about it.
However. Echo Knight is an extra attack. It is literally an attack that they get that there is no real other way to get that exists outside of the various usages of the action economy of a normal turn. The Echo Knight can still pick up PAM or use Quick Toss, Or Dual Wield or a bunch of other things on top of that set number of actual set number of extra attacks from their ability.
When you attack twice with a warhammer two-handed you do not get the chance to do a BA attack.
Quick toss gives you an attack so you get an attack you would not normally get.
Then battlemaster with the style with and without the precision die.... That's it.
It's absolutely 3 difference without the die as shown.
Again. That is a build and white room math that favors the Battle Master. And yet it's still a relatively low difference. So Whether you mean to or not. your cherry picking a situation that is against the Champion to call the Champion bad and your doing it over an acceptably small margin. That does not necessarily exist in actual play either.
It's just straight up comparison of the numbers....
With and without the die.
The champ only does about 2 points of damage more than the battlemaster without any die on average.
Because of this it takes a lot of attacks for champion to close the gap created by the die.
It takes a lot of extra attacks for the Champion to close the gap When things are considered in favor of the Battle Master. But here's the thing. Each round that goes on after the Battle Master has run out. Your getting more than one attack to close that gap. And if they can close that gap even if it's somewhat slow. That means eventually they are going to over take. How fast that happens is based upon the disparity. If there is a disparity if we continue on when things are in the Battle Master's Favor. Then it's going to be bigger when things are in the Champions favor and happen much faster.
The Biased answer is trying to say the one we like best is going to win.
The Unbiased answer is the one that is inevitably going to end up in the lead eventually is going to win.
But the actual balanced and fair answer is that they are equal but their strengths are in slightly different places. Which has been my point all along.
No its just a straight up comparison with both using their subclass abilities.
Either way, these choices are also thematic in part - the subclass that better fits the character is always the better subclass.
I dont disagree only stating the fact of the math was my point...it does take Champion quite a few attacks to catch up due to the extra damage given to Battlemaster.
Informed decision to pick BM for damage/versatility vs. Champion for simplicity
Either way, these choices are also thematic in part - the subclass that better fits the character is always the better subclass.
I dont disagree only stating the fact of the math was my point...it does take Champion quite a few attacks to catch up due to the extra damage given to Battlemaster.
Informed decision to pick BM for damage/versatility vs. Champion for simplicity
One thing I have noticed about 5e is that every class has a 'default' subclass option - circle of the land, life domain, school of evocation, champion. They tend to be easier for new players to handle with less overwhelming choice.
Either way, these choices are also thematic in part - the subclass that better fits the character is always the better subclass.
I dont disagree only stating the fact of the math was my point...it does take Champion quite a few attacks to catch up due to the extra damage given to Battlemaster.
Informed decision to pick BM for damage/versatility vs. Champion for simplicity
One thing I have noticed about 5e is that every class has a 'default' subclass option - circle of the land, life domain, school of evocation, champion. They tend to be easier for new players to handle with less overwhelming choice.
Yeah thats the big appeal of champ IMO...you don't have to worry about maneuvers and features and can just swing.
You pay with damage output and versatility but that is fine if you just want to swing away.
It does make the game a lot of fun when you have just a couple of things to do to your heart's content. Occasionally I build characters like this and it means you can focus on all the other stuff.
It does make the game a lot of fun when you have just a couple of things to do to your heart's content. Occasionally I build characters like this and it means you can focus on all the other stuff.
Its a very valid strategy!
I like MC with champ myself...works really well with Barbarian. Champ Fighter 3/Barb X is pretty cool
My latest character is a lot of fun. Heavy Armour Master and Interception have my DM a bit tired of me saying 'nope' to the damage. But my fellow party members love it.
No its just a straight up comparison with both using their subclass abilities.
it's not a straight comparison. We like to pretend it's straight because it's simple. But simple and straight are not the same thing. Sometimes the simplest thing is one of the most roundabout things there is that is anything but straight. That's not to say simple is bad in any way. But it is deceptive when we try to conflate it as anything else.
And that's really some of the issue. When we start deceptively interchanging these things. There is a whole lot of time where the straight option is extremely complicated and convoluted.
Old Cartoons used to play with this very concept as a joke. Doing things like Watching a character solve puzzles and move a bunch of stuff and find the right key or whatever to go the route that went straight. Then when they get there the other character is waiting for them because they did something simple like going around instead because it still got them there without all the work.
No its just a straight up comparison with both using their subclass abilities.
it's not a straight comparison. We like to pretend it's straight because it's simple. But simple and straight are not the same thing. Sometimes the simplest thing is one of the most roundabout things there is that is anything but straight. That's not to say simple is bad in any way. But it is deceptive when we try to conflate it as anything else.
And that's really some of the issue. When we start deceptively interchanging these things. There is a whole lot of time where the straight option is extremely complicated and convoluted.
Old Cartoons used to play with this very concept as a joke. Doing things like Watching a character solve puzzles and move a bunch of stuff and find the right key or whatever to go the route that went straight. Then when they get there the other character is waiting for them because they did something simple like going around instead because it still got them there without all the work.
It's is though.
They both have the same equipment, fighting styles, and stats.
They are both using subclass abilities. It's a fair comparison.
The use case for Champion is resource management over short or long rests. One of my DMs loves gritty realism rules and he is super picky about rests, so any long-rest based class suffer in our games. Champions and Rogues shine.
The use case for Champion is resource management over short or long rests. One of my DMs loves gritty realism rules and he is super picky about rests, so any long-rest based class suffer in our games. Champions and Rogues shine.
Yup these are the games they will do well in for sure!
I have saw some Champion builds using both Crusher and/or Slasher feat alongside Light Hammer and Handaxes, the Throwing Weapon + Two-Weapon fighting styles… a lot of different options and good effects without burning any temporary resource.
Two feats tho that's a lot just to make it as good as Battlemaster.
Except that Fighter has Extra ASI's to burn on a couple feats... And all kinds of battlemaster's are wasting them on at least 2 ASI's to make them what people really call good since people often demand that they have things like GWM and PAM and/or possibly others at all times.
But that puts them in the 1% for damage while the champion needs those feats to just pull even with a barebones Battlemaster.
This is not actually true. This is a bad perception based upon bad white rooming that does not actually make room for the real damage done over time. Everybody does the math over just one or two turns where the Battle Master can use all their techniques and superiority dice to increase damage with little downtime where such are not available. Over a stretched out period of time and many combat rounds. The Champion even on average does at least as much damage as the Battlemaster fighter.
Stretched out over time, but stretched out over the typical 3 encounters per rest? The BM I expect would still have the edge, and it's not only damage but all the other things the superiority dice can do, including extra attacks...
Also while there is chance for Battle Master to tailor damage into crits a bit by choosing to use a superiority dice when they know They have a crit. There is a lot of variables to make this work that do not always actually like up in practice. The Objective Reality is that with 2 to eventually 3 times the Crit Range at their disposal, Crit Fishing Builds actually favor the Champion over the Battle Master because the extra Crits are going to make up and even potentially exceed the gap of the occasionally more and occasionally more controllable damage of the Battle Master.
No BM maneuver gives you more attacks. There are a couple that might give you an opportunity to use your Reaction (but then your reaction is used up for the turn) or might turn a miss into a hit a few times. But there is not one that creates extra attacks anywhere. And to do these things you have to give up the damage of the superiority dice from other Maneuvers. And if you do anything non-combat you also give up that damage. Now there are certain instances this is a net gain in damage. But they are balanced out by all the ones that are actually a net loss in damage.
So what your describing is more a matter of misperception than an actual Objective case.
And 3 encounters per rest is actually in the favor of the Champion. But that is not what the game is balanced around. it is balanced around 2 encounters per rest. And 3 to 5 rounds of combat. I went with 5 rounds of combat because it is not unrealistic and the math is easier. Shorter combats side slightly in favor of the BM. That is why most white room math that you see will not do more than 3 rounds of combat. It's the bare minimum they can do to be "fair" about it while doing everything they can to put the math in favor of certain builds and or classes and it allows for the most burst with the least amount of down time. Each additional round that is tacked onto combat where they cannot burst usually works against burst damage classes and builds instead of in their favor because it gives more opportunity for more long term or endless sustainability builds to keep up.
But to give you an idea of some of the differences that most people won't really tell you about. Yes the BM gets to have their Superiority dice damage shine a bit more. But they are unlikely to crit in that 6 round period of damage when considering the averages. The Champion still is and Everything that takes advantage of that crit will still come into play. 6 rounds of combat at level 5 is looking at about 12 attacks. But if the Champion is a half-orc and built for Dual wielding They are going to make 18 attacks in that same amount of time without even considering damage. So if they can even get 2 reaction attacks in for some reason they've hit the thresh-hold for another Critical when the BM has yet to get 1. Which basically negates the damage of all 4 of those Superiority dice on average without spending a single resource and the additional attacks have increased the Champions damage passively to make up for other gaps in the numbers. If the Superiority dice aren't being used for damage however. That's just straight up damage in favor of the Champion however, such as offsetting any extra damage the BM got for their own BA attacks with PAM, which is an outright requirement to even get close to the thresh-hold for the average of doing a crit in those 6 rounds of combat for the BM itself.
yes BM can be built for and some things can naturally lean into it making situations in it's favor. But the exact same is true for Champion. We can easily build around Champion just as well but with a slightly different purpose and the damage coming from a slightly different place. We don't control that place as much as with the Battlemaster. But we also don't risk running out of it or it not being there when we could make most use of it.
Quick Toss is literally an extra attack with your bonus action....
Quick Toss is not an Extra Attack. Quick toss is just making use of your Bonus action in a style similar to Dual Wielder or any other number of sources of such bonus action attacks. It is in no way extra. And it also blocks you from doing anything else with your Bonus Action. Not that Fighters Always have things to do with their bonus action anyway so it may go basically un-used on many of their average turns. having nothing to do normally with their Bonus Actions is exactly why things like PAM are so popular. Not only is it a repeatedly usable bonus action. But it happens to do a bit of damage as well. Nice for a bit more DPR but in no way extra.
If you want an Example of an Actual Extra Attack. Look no Further than the Echo Knight Unleash Incarnation is quite literally a small handful of additional attacks based upon your charisma modifier.
It's an extra attack you wouldn't other wise get.
I don't know why my error correct turned Constitution into Charisma in my previous post. But I didn't catch that before.
Anyway. it's not an extra attack you wouldn't otherwise get. There are lots of ways to get bonus action attacks. Everything from picking up various abilities to just dual wielding which is baked into the game and literally every character can do to lesser or greater success straight out of the gate. There is nothing extra about it.
However. Echo Knight is an extra attack. It is literally an attack that they get that there is no real other way to get that exists outside of the various usages of the action economy of a normal turn. The Echo Knight can still pick up PAM or use Quick Toss, Or Dual Wield or a bunch of other things on top of that set number of actual set number of extra attacks from their ability.
When you attack twice with a warhammer two-handed you do not get the chance to do a BA attack.
Quick toss gives you an attack so you get an attack you would not normally get.
yah
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When you attack twice with a warhammer two-handed you do not get the chance to do a BA attack.
Quick toss gives you an attack so you get an attack you would not normally get.
No its just a straight up comparison with both using their subclass abilities.
Either way, these choices are also thematic in part - the subclass that better fits the character is always the better subclass.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I dont disagree only stating the fact of the math was my point...it does take Champion quite a few attacks to catch up due to the extra damage given to Battlemaster.
Informed decision to pick BM for damage/versatility vs. Champion for simplicity
One thing I have noticed about 5e is that every class has a 'default' subclass option - circle of the land, life domain, school of evocation, champion. They tend to be easier for new players to handle with less overwhelming choice.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Yeah thats the big appeal of champ IMO...you don't have to worry about maneuvers and features and can just swing.
You pay with damage output and versatility but that is fine if you just want to swing away.
It does make the game a lot of fun when you have just a couple of things to do to your heart's content. Occasionally I build characters like this and it means you can focus on all the other stuff.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Its a very valid strategy!
I like MC with champ myself...works really well with Barbarian. Champ Fighter 3/Barb X is pretty cool
Very much fun. I also love the 'wild' characters. Wild Magic barbarian looks like so much fun to play.
Chilling kinda vibe.
I think that one would pair well with the Psi Fighter myself.
I wouldn't want to multiclass that one and just go the whole hog with the craziness and unpredictability.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Legit!
My latest character is a lot of fun. Heavy Armour Master and Interception have my DM a bit tired of me saying 'nope' to the damage. But my fellow party members love it.
Chilling kinda vibe.
it's not a straight comparison. We like to pretend it's straight because it's simple. But simple and straight are not the same thing. Sometimes the simplest thing is one of the most roundabout things there is that is anything but straight. That's not to say simple is bad in any way. But it is deceptive when we try to conflate it as anything else.
And that's really some of the issue. When we start deceptively interchanging these things. There is a whole lot of time where the straight option is extremely complicated and convoluted.
Old Cartoons used to play with this very concept as a joke. Doing things like Watching a character solve puzzles and move a bunch of stuff and find the right key or whatever to go the route that went straight. Then when they get there the other character is waiting for them because they did something simple like going around instead because it still got them there without all the work.
It's is though.
They both have the same equipment, fighting styles, and stats.
They are both using subclass abilities. It's a fair comparison.
The use case for Champion is resource management over short or long rests. One of my DMs loves gritty realism rules and he is super picky about rests, so any long-rest based class suffer in our games. Champions and Rogues shine.
Yup these are the games they will do well in for sure!
Eldritch Knight because I like hitting and I like magic, but yes it would be good if the EK had access to other spells.
The Arcane Trickster is just about perfect in that respect.
I would use one of the extra ASIs to take Ritual Caster. It expands the flexibility of the character.
Hi bill cipher
yah