Rush of the Gale Spirits is the worst for the first tier for me.
The effect is too narrow and it's too situation specific.
Fire fang seems nice but it's easier then ever to get reach with monk now thanks to dedicated weapon.
1 ki for 1d10 fire damage is just ok and gets worse the later the game does
Fist of the unbroken air seems ok but proning something 20 ft away means the grid has to be right and your allies in the right position to capitalize.
You kind of screw your ranged allies and your melee buddies have to chase them then and they are less likely to be as quick as you.
Earlier in this thread I brought this up and as it is worded, FoUA doesn’t require you to push the target, you CAN, but don’t have to. Also, FoUA pushes UP TO 20’ (so 0-20’) AND knocks prone so if your target is in melee with your party, it seems that, as worded, you can just knock them prone on the spot. Same for Water Whip except it’s a pull OR knock prone. So again you don’t have to send your melee friends chasing after them.
But you are correct that if you prone them it does screw over your ranges players.
My top picks would be Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, and Fists of Unbroken Air as they are unique and not just casting spells (wish all the disciplines were like this). Hold person is nice but as Humanoid only it can be very situational depending on campaign. I have Hold Person currently on my Druid and I don’t use it very often because we’ve been dealing with undead recently. But the times I have used it, it’s had great effect.
Fireball is also a contender but at 11th level it’s lost some of its shine. If you can catch a group though you could probably out damage your martial arts attacks so not useless.
Good points there...its like Repelling Blast...you CAN do it you don't HAVE to so that does change it a bit in my mind.
I agree with your list for top picks as well. Wish more disciplines would be more like those as they provide unique things to do beyond just casting a spell.
My top picks would be Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, and Fists of Unbroken Air as they are unique and not just casting spells (wish all the disciplines were like this). Hold person is nice but as Humanoid only it can be very situational depending on campaign. I have Hold Person currently on my Druid and I don’t use it very often because we’ve been dealing with undead recently. But the times I have used it, it’s had great effect.
Fireball is also a contender but at 11th level it’s lost some of its shine. If you can catch a group though you could probably out damage your martial arts attacks so not useless.
Campaigns can situationally make many abilities for many classes a bad idea or boost others into total must haves. Undead Campaigns being one of the more common themed campaigns. Dragons being another. Demons being a Third. They are something that can shift entire builds because of things that commonly come up with them. But that is always true of themed campaigns. Not all campaigns are themed and are fairly mixed which means a variety is often better.
Campaign theming is really one of the variables that should be taken into account when choosing not only what to play but how to play it sometimes. Sun Soul for example suddenly becomes a lot better in undead campaigns just because of it's abundance of radiant damage. Where as necrotic based builds like Mercy might become weaker. Even though in an average mixed campaign neither should really have much of an edge and have to survive more on other merits.
Edit: I will also say that Fangs of the Fire Snake, Unbroken Air, and Water Whip because they are fairly unique. they are fairly strong at all levels and they do scale at your choosing is part of the reason why they tend to be the core of the most common build as I mentioned earlier in the thread when somebody was trying to talk about average costs and showing it's not nearly costly as it's made out to be.
Back to the feats topic, I really like Telekinetic in theory for a 4 elements monk.
People generally recognize Ki-Fueled Strikes as a nice upgrade for monks, and I see it mentioned in relation to 4E monks often enough. A strength of the 4E monk's kit that is generally stressed is the ability to engage at different ranges thanks to their disciplines. I think there is a bit of disconnect between the two thoughts since acting from range will invariably make it harder to effectively use the bonus action melee. Of course it can be made to work, but needing to give up the benefit of being at ranged to get the attack is its own set of baggage.
Telekinetic providing a consistent ranged bonus action on a half-feat that boosts wisdom on a monk sub that wants to be wisdom focused and likes to act from range seems real nice.
Also, it’s FoUA and Water Whip will make Walls of X FAR more potent in your games. Pushing/Pulling them through deadly terrain should be a staple in your games for a 4E monk and should fully realize the damage output.
This may have been answered already at some point in this thread but I'm not going to sit here and read through 10 pages worth blogs so I'll put it out here anyway.
If I create a Way of the Four Elements Monk and give it a feat such as Fey Touched or Shadow Touched can I use my Ki points to cast the associated spells more than the one use per long rest?
This may have been answered already at some point in this thread but I'm not going to sit here and read through 10 pages worth blogs so I'll put it out here anyway.
If I create a Way of the Four Elements Monk and give it a feat such as Fey Touched or Shadow Touched can I use my Ki points to cast the associated spells more than the one use per long rest?
You would not. Unfortunately the Ki Casting of the 4 elements monk is not well supported outside of the 4 elements monk. The Feats your talking about actually call specifically for spell slots that 4 elements does not have and there is not a direct ki to spell slot system built into it since it's a bit more streamlined than what it is based off of.
I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered, can I use ride the wind as an attack? The Players Handbook states that I can target my self, which leads one to believe that you can target a npc or another entity. If so how would the "attack" comence would I have to touch someone? Or would it be "I'm gonna cast ride the wind on the BBEG" let him float or fly upwards of their distance speed and drop them.
I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered, can I use ride the wind as an attack? The Players Handbook states that I can target my self, which leads one to believe that you can target a npc or another entity. If so how would the "attack" comence would I have to touch someone? Or would it be "I'm gonna cast ride the wind on the BBEG" let him float or fly upwards of their distance speed and drop them.
Because "Ride the Wind" specifically says you target yourself, you cannot use the feature to target another creature
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I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered, can I use ride the wind as an attack? The Players Handbook states that I can target my self, which leads one to believe that you can target a npc or another entity. If so how would the "attack" comence would I have to touch someone? Or would it be "I'm gonna cast ride the wind on the BBEG" let him float or fly upwards of their distance speed and drop them.
Because "Ride the Wind" specifically says you target yourself, you cannot use the feature to target another creature
It doesn't say the monk can only target themself, and like any elemental spell it can be "cast" at a higher level by spending additional ki points. So long as the monk is at least one of the affected targets, they can target additional creatures.
That said, spells like fly aren't intended to be weaponized. The target of the spell decides how they move, and if they use their fly speed at all, not the spellcaster.
Yeah, he's think Levitate. Which I have definitely seen weaponized.
Levitate's usage is more for weaponization to stop enemy movements than to actually use as any kind of beneficial movement power for oneself or allies.
It's usefulness to allies is niche and more to get around things like athletics checks to climb.
Yeah, he's think Levitate. Which I have definitely seen weaponized.
Levitate's usage is more for weaponization to stop enemy movements than to actually use as any kind of beneficial movement power for oneself or allies.
It's usefulness to allies is niche and more to get around things like athletics checks to climb.
I've found it very helpful on my 9th level warlock. 20 ft is enough to get out of the way of most big melee enemies
Thank you everyone for your input, it is greatly appreiciated. I'm trying to optimize my monk without the hassle of multiclassing. In previous groups our monks either quit the party or didnt speak (I belive he was from a silent order) and my current group is four people, rouge, bard/warlock, fighter and monk.
The first 5 or 6 pages of this thread have some great ideas and content!
This is definitely one of my favorite monk subclasses.
Wisdom > Dexterity
Going back a bit, fangs of the fire snake, fist of unbroken air, and other options like them (the non ki cast spells) are very intentionally able to be pumped and are not restricted by the maximum ki table. I know most people want to use less ki (I am in in the camp of this subclass is not only fine but great, and just misunderstood), but four elements is the only monk subclass that I know of that has a built in single target nova damage capability!
The first 5 or 6 pages of this thread have some great ideas and content!
This is definitely one of my favorite monk subclasses.
Wisdom > Dexterity
Going back a bit, fangs of the fire snake, fist of unbroken air, and other options like them (the non ki cast spells) are very intentionally able to be pumped and are not restricted by the maximum ki table. I know most people want to use less ki (I am in in the camp of this subclass is not only fine but great, and just misunderstood), but four elements is the only monk subclass that I know of that has a built in single target nova damage capability!
Yes, there's definitely room to go "nova" with this subclass in a way no other monk can. And it is entirely possible to play this without emphasizing Dexterity and focusing solely on your attack potential. But it also short-changes your potential.
I still wish it got something extra at levels 6, 11, and 17. I'd add something myself, but I'm not sure what it should be. And just adding more Elemental Disciplines doesn't feel like enough to me.
I really see a monk with (worst case scenario) nova potential, multiple AoE options (starting at level 3), and incentive to pump wisdom before dexterity as really great.
The idea several people have stated previously in this thread about how subclass abilities should always be available is insane to me. It’s the equivalent of being a Carpenter and getting a new screwdriver and wanting to use that screwdriver for every possible project. Subclass abilities are tools in your tool chest out of there to apply to situation when needed, but not all the time, every time.
On top of that, players are like a unquenchable thirst. Early on, warlocks only have two spell slots. If you gave them a third players would gripe that three wasn’t enough. If you gave them a fourth, players would gripe that that’s not enough either. This would go on and on and on forever.
At level 11 the open hand monk gets an ability that encourages them NOT to attack! Do use none of their sub class or class abilities! At the same level the four elements monk can fly or cast fireball. I mean, come on?!
I really see a monk with (worst case scenario) nova potential, multiple AoE options (starting at level 3), and incentive to pump wisdom before dexterity as really great.
The idea several people have stated previously in this thread about how subclass abilities should always be available is insane to me. It’s the equivalent of being a Carpenter and getting a new screwdriver and wanting to use that screwdriver for every possible project. Subclass abilities are tools in your tool chest out of there to apply to situation when needed, but not all the time, every time.
On top of that, players are like a unquenchable thirst. Early on, warlocks only have two spell slots. If you gave them a third players would gripe that three wasn’t enough. If you gave them a fourth, players would gripe that that’s not enough either. This would go on and on and on forever.
At level 11 the open hand monk gets an ability that encourages them NOT to attack! Do use none of their sub class or class abilities! At the same level the four elements monk can fly or cast fireball. I mean, come on?!
The open hand thing is a problem I agree... It's discouraging you to use your monk stuff in favor of not talking any Offensive actions at all. It's not great design.
So yes I would agree it's like 4 element in the fact you are encouraging a monk to use a worse version of AoE than literally any caster in the sake of your monk stuff.
Open hand is at least very good in the fact that you get a straight upgrade to something you are going to use a lot as a monk. When you flurry you get this thing that's pretty good always.
4e is bad to me because it does the opposite.... It encourages you to not even use your core monk stuff instead suggesting you try to do less damage/control and spend way too much ki to do it.
It's bad design because it doesn't build on the core it gives you an option to replace it but literally any caster build will be better at it and you're fighting your core class features to try to force it in.
Any time someone says something like “A _______ class/subclass can do that better.” I instantly disregard what that person says moving forward. That kind of response can be made about most anything in this game. It’s dismissive with no real constructive intent or desire for conversation.
In no way shape or form does a subclass ability-set need or should build on base class abilities. Both doing so and not work and exist in this game. We are talking about doubling down and hyper focusing on an idea, or diversification and broadening of a character’s abilities.
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Good points there...its like Repelling Blast...you CAN do it you don't HAVE to so that does change it a bit in my mind.
I agree with your list for top picks as well. Wish more disciplines would be more like those as they provide unique things to do beyond just casting a spell.
Campaigns can situationally make many abilities for many classes a bad idea or boost others into total must haves. Undead Campaigns being one of the more common themed campaigns. Dragons being another. Demons being a Third. They are something that can shift entire builds because of things that commonly come up with them. But that is always true of themed campaigns. Not all campaigns are themed and are fairly mixed which means a variety is often better.
Campaign theming is really one of the variables that should be taken into account when choosing not only what to play but how to play it sometimes. Sun Soul for example suddenly becomes a lot better in undead campaigns just because of it's abundance of radiant damage. Where as necrotic based builds like Mercy might become weaker. Even though in an average mixed campaign neither should really have much of an edge and have to survive more on other merits.
Edit: I will also say that Fangs of the Fire Snake, Unbroken Air, and Water Whip because they are fairly unique. they are fairly strong at all levels and they do scale at your choosing is part of the reason why they tend to be the core of the most common build as I mentioned earlier in the thread when somebody was trying to talk about average costs and showing it's not nearly costly as it's made out to be.
Back to the feats topic, I really like Telekinetic in theory for a 4 elements monk.
People generally recognize Ki-Fueled Strikes as a nice upgrade for monks, and I see it mentioned in relation to 4E monks often enough. A strength of the 4E monk's kit that is generally stressed is the ability to engage at different ranges thanks to their disciplines. I think there is a bit of disconnect between the two thoughts since acting from range will invariably make it harder to effectively use the bonus action melee. Of course it can be made to work, but needing to give up the benefit of being at ranged to get the attack is its own set of baggage.
Telekinetic providing a consistent ranged bonus action on a half-feat that boosts wisdom on a monk sub that wants to be wisdom focused and likes to act from range seems real nice.
Now I want to play a Long Death with Telekinetic.
Also, it’s FoUA and Water Whip will make Walls of X FAR more potent in your games. Pushing/Pulling them through deadly terrain should be a staple in your games for a 4E monk and should fully realize the damage output.
This may have been answered already at some point in this thread but I'm not going to sit here and read through 10 pages worth blogs so I'll put it out here anyway.
If I create a Way of the Four Elements Monk and give it a feat such as Fey Touched or Shadow Touched can I use my Ki points to cast the associated spells more than the one use per long rest?
Nope. Ki casting is a completely separate thing.
You would not. Unfortunately the Ki Casting of the 4 elements monk is not well supported outside of the 4 elements monk. The Feats your talking about actually call specifically for spell slots that 4 elements does not have and there is not a direct ki to spell slot system built into it since it's a bit more streamlined than what it is based off of.
I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered, can I use ride the wind as an attack? The Players Handbook states that I can target my self, which leads one to believe that you can target a npc or another entity. If so how would the "attack" comence would I have to touch someone? Or would it be "I'm gonna cast ride the wind on the BBEG" let him float or fly upwards of their distance speed and drop them.
Because "Ride the Wind" specifically says you target yourself, you cannot use the feature to target another creature
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
It doesn't say the monk can only target themself, and like any elemental spell it can be "cast" at a higher level by spending additional ki points. So long as the monk is at least one of the affected targets, they can target additional creatures.
That said, spells like fly aren't intended to be weaponized. The target of the spell decides how they move, and if they use their fly speed at all, not the spellcaster.
Yeah, he's think Levitate. Which I have definitely seen weaponized.
Levitate's usage is more for weaponization to stop enemy movements than to actually use as any kind of beneficial movement power for oneself or allies.
It's usefulness to allies is niche and more to get around things like athletics checks to climb.
I've found it very helpful on my 9th level warlock. 20 ft is enough to get out of the way of most big melee enemies
Thank you everyone for your input, it is greatly appreiciated. I'm trying to optimize my monk without the hassle of multiclassing. In previous groups our monks either quit the party or didnt speak (I belive he was from a silent order) and my current group is four people, rouge, bard/warlock, fighter and monk.
Thank you
The first 5 or 6 pages of this thread have some great ideas and content!
This is definitely one of my favorite monk subclasses.
Wisdom > Dexterity
Going back a bit, fangs of the fire snake, fist of unbroken air, and other options like them (the non ki cast spells) are very intentionally able to be pumped and are not restricted by the maximum ki table. I know most people want to use less ki (I am in in the camp of this subclass is not only fine but great, and just misunderstood), but four elements is the only monk subclass that I know of that has a built in single target nova damage capability!
Yes, there's definitely room to go "nova" with this subclass in a way no other monk can. And it is entirely possible to play this without emphasizing Dexterity and focusing solely on your attack potential. But it also short-changes your potential.
I still wish it got something extra at levels 6, 11, and 17. I'd add something myself, but I'm not sure what it should be. And just adding more Elemental Disciplines doesn't feel like enough to me.
I really see a monk with (worst case scenario) nova potential, multiple AoE options (starting at level 3), and incentive to pump wisdom before dexterity as really great.
The idea several people have stated previously in this thread about how subclass abilities should always be available is insane to me. It’s the equivalent of being a Carpenter and getting a new screwdriver and wanting to use that screwdriver for every possible project. Subclass abilities are tools in your tool chest out of there to apply to situation when needed, but not all the time, every time.
On top of that, players are like a unquenchable thirst. Early on, warlocks only have two spell slots. If you gave them a third players would gripe that three wasn’t enough. If you gave them a fourth, players would gripe that that’s not enough either. This would go on and on and on forever.
At level 11 the open hand monk gets an ability that encourages them NOT to attack! Do use none of their sub class or class abilities! At the same level the four elements monk can fly or cast fireball. I mean, come on?!
The open hand thing is a problem I agree... It's discouraging you to use your monk stuff in favor of not talking any Offensive actions at all. It's not great design.
So yes I would agree it's like 4 element in the fact you are encouraging a monk to use a worse version of AoE than literally any caster in the sake of your monk stuff.
Open hand is at least very good in the fact that you get a straight upgrade to something you are going to use a lot as a monk. When you flurry you get this thing that's pretty good always.
4e is bad to me because it does the opposite.... It encourages you to not even use your core monk stuff instead suggesting you try to do less damage/control and spend way too much ki to do it.
It's bad design because it doesn't build on the core it gives you an option to replace it but literally any caster build will be better at it and you're fighting your core class features to try to force it in.
Any time someone says something like “A _______ class/subclass can do that better.” I instantly disregard what that person says moving forward. That kind of response can be made about most anything in this game. It’s dismissive with no real constructive intent or desire for conversation.
In no way shape or form does a subclass ability-set need or should build on base class abilities. Both doing so and not work and exist in this game. We are talking about doubling down and hyper focusing on an idea, or diversification and broadening of a character’s abilities.