I have Tasha's but I haven't read all the way through it yet. The other day I was making a Fighter and saw the Unarmed Fighting Style. If you have nothing in your hands you do 1D8 damage. Does this make a 2 level dip (because Action Surge) into any form of Monk a whole new ballgame? The Fighting Style isn't stat dependant (like a Barb's bonus Rage Damage which relies on Str) so it should work for everything except Kensei (because some of their abilities state that they MUST have a Kensei weapon in-hand).
The Unarmed Fighting style explicitly states that your unarmed attacks do d6 + your strength modifier bludgeoning damage. Very few Monk builds have much in the way of strength, so how would the UF style help Monks?
I skimmed the first two pages and came away with 'Don't use a Feat to get Unarmed Fighting Style' which is fine because I was planning on a 2-level dip for Action Surge.
The Unarmed Fighting style explicitly states that your unarmed attacks do d6 + your strength modifier bludgeoning damage. Very few Monk builds have much in the way of strength, so how would the UF style help Monks?
Just because most Monk builds don't use Str doesn't mean they can't. And why would anyone use a Fighting Style that gives them the same damage as a Short Sword? UFS means that the Unarmed Strike dice would be D8 (unarmed, no shield) + STR mod, not D6. So I build my Barb/Monk with a High Str, more STR damage from Rage, the 'I don't care what my AC is because I have Resistance' AC. Make him a Goliath and now he's every big Anime Martial Artist ever.
The point of the OP was to bring to light the fact that Unarmed Strikes from UFS are the same as Unarmed Strikes from Martial Arts so I don't have to suffer through 'D4 land' for the early levels.
Its good for V. Human monks that want a damage boost from level 1.
Otherwise monks are not really built to get feats...its a design flaw in their class.
Due to the fact they make a lot of smaller damage attacks and their AC relies on DEX they really really want to max DEX as soon as possible. Then you want to max WIS as soon as possible as your stunning strike DC, AC, and sometimes subclass components rely on it.
This doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for feats unless you roll for stats and get lucky (like Beau in CR).
I think the answer to the question posed is "not on its own and not for everyone". Shortcutting your way to d8 + STR unarmed strikes is nice, but you have to actually get the fighting style somehow which either means variant human, feat instead of an Ability Score increase (although +DEX or +STR is arguably better for the flat damage and hit chance increase), or taking a multiclass dip (delaying your Martial Arts die increases and other Monk features.
Obviously if you don't expect to hit 11th level, or are multiclassing for other reasons then it's less of an issue, but that won't be the case for everyone in which case Unarmed Fighting basically becomes obsolete at 11th level (in Monk), or comes with a price early on.
One other issue is that Monks don't have to use unarmed strikes all the time, though this will depend on your sub-class; a Monk can use a quarterstaff (a Monk weapon that already deals d8 + DEX/STR) so you're only really increasing the damage on the Martial Arts bonus attack and Flurry of Blows, in which case the actual damage increase is relatively small (like 4 extra per turn). With the Dedicated Weapon and Ki-fuelled Attack optional features (or Kensei and Ki-fuelled Attack) a Monk can also potentially use a longsword for 1d10+DEX/STR three times per turn.
Really it just comes down to it being a tool like anything else; if your goal is to build a character that solves 99% of their problems with punching, or are playing a sub-class whose abilities trigger from unarmed strikes only (e.g- Way of Mercy) then it's a good option to have, but I don't think it's something that every Monk needs to take.
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Its good for V. Human monks that want a damage boost from level 1.
Otherwise monks are not really built to get feats...its a design flaw in their class.
Due to the fact they make a lot of smaller damage attacks and their AC relies on DEX they really really want to max DEX as soon as possible. Then you want to max WIS as soon as possible as your stunning strike DC, AC, and sometimes subclass components rely on it.
This doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for feats unless you roll for stats and get lucky (like Beau in CR).
Agreed. IMHO they should have given them an additional ASI/Feat spot. I built a mishmash Fighter/Barb/Monk but playing it would be a mess unless you were in a game that started around lvl 8 or so. Until then it would be okay but nothing to write home about. The Barb Resistance helps bolster the AC until the stats start going up, the Barb Str bonus helps a bit and the Barb and Monk movement bonuses stack nicely. Making one to play from lvl 1 would suck though.
It's a trap that does nearly no extra damage on average, and inferior damage in the long run.
You get one or two unarmed strikes as a bonus action, your primary one or two attacks are with a versatile quarterstaff, spear, or Longsword, dealing d8 or d10 regardless of the feat, so you've increased the average damage of usually just one bonus action attack by 2.
If your taking a feat, something like mobile will give you better maneuverability, or lucky will turn tables, if your taking fighter for action surge... your now further away from more Ki points, martial arts die increases, ASI bonuses and so on. Monk gets more from ASI than almost any other class. Those early Ki point increases represent a dramatic increase in your total Ki pool, you want 40% less stunning strikes per short rest for 100% more attacks per long rest, go for it.
Dueling fighter style would be worth it potentially with the right build...Kensei comes to mind
When you get Deft Strike eventually you get +6 damage which is pretty good...but nets out at only +3 damage to the die loss (Action Attack/1 Ki for Deft Strike....then BA Ki-Fueled Attack so you get 3(1d8+7) attacks per round at level 6 if you use a V. Human to get the feat
I like Blind Fighting for Shadow monks so you can cast darkness then run in and use Ki-Fueled attack and lock the creature in the darkness with you. If they try to run you can "see" them with blind fighting and you off turn stun which is good deal.
Blind fighting with Shadow monk sounds devastating.
I don't know if I would use a Ki point to use the weapon to attack once rather than flurry to attack twice, the damage modifier on both attacks beats almost any damage die a monk can access, unless it's a reach or thrown weapon when you can't melee an opponent. Maybe if you have a godly magic weapon with extra effects, then you give up your single free punch or fueled double punch for a fueled weapon attack. This will not feel stupid till Fighter gets his third attack with GWM, then your monk questions his life choices.
There's also the attached affects on mercy and open hand monk that make flurry more competitive. It's unfortunate, but monk is the class with the most progression traps.
Blind fighting with Shadow monk sounds devastating.
I don't know if I would use a Ki point to use the weapon to attack once rather than flurry to attack twice, the damage modifier on both attacks beats almost any damage die a monk can access, unless it's a reach or thrown weapon when you can't melee an opponent. Maybe if you have a godly magic weapon with extra effects, then you give up your single free punch or fueled double punch for a fueled weapon attack. This will not feel stupid till Fighter gets his third attack with GWM, then your monk questions his life choices.
There's also the attached affects on mercy and open hand monk that make flurry more competitive. It's unfortunate, but monk is the class with the most progression traps.
Unfortunately I don't think you can flurry if you don't use attack action but otherwise I would for sure.
I don't know if I would use a Ki point to use the weapon to attack once rather than flurry to attack twice
Just to clarify, but you don't spend a Ki point to weapon attack as a bonus action with Ki-fulled Strike, you spend a Ki point on something else (Focused Aim, Stunning Strike, Deft Strike for a Kensei, Four Elements disciplines, Shadow Arts on a Shadow Monk etc.) during your action and then get the weapon bonus attack for "free".
Your mileage will vary heavily with what abilities you can do during your action vs. the value you get out of Flurry of Blows; obviously a Way of Mercy Monk gets more out of Flurry once they can Hand of Harm/Healing at the same time, but that's quite high level, Open Palm wants to use Flurry fairly often for their bonus effects though. But there are others who'll be happier spending the Ki as their action, in which case a free weapon bonus attack is better than spending another point of Ki for a Flurry.
But yeah, it's not as simple as "one is better, so do that one" because what comes down to is what else you want to spend your Ki on, and how much you can afford to spend.
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I don't know if I would use a Ki point to use the weapon to attack once rather than flurry to attack twice
Just to clarify, but you don't spend a Ki point to weapon attack as a bonus action with Ki-fulled Strike, you spend a Ki point on something else (Focused Aim, Stunning Strike, Deft Strike for a Kensei, Four Elements disciplines, Shadow Arts on a Shadow Monk etc.) during your action and then get the weapon bonus attack for "free".
Your mileage will vary heavily with what abilities you can do during your action vs. the value you get out of Flurry of Blows; obviously a Way of Mercy Monk gets more out of Flurry once they can Hand of Harm/Healing at the same time, but that's quite high level, Open Palm wants to use Flurry fairly often for their bonus effects though. But there are others who'll be happier spending the Ki as their action, in which case a free weapon bonus attack is better than spending another point of Ki for a Flurry.
But yeah, it's not as simple as "one is better, so do that one" because what comes down to is what else you want to spend your Ki on, and how much you can afford to spend.
I like Kensei because some of their best traits don't cost Ki or have a rare one-time cost that lasts a minute.
Agile Parry costs nothing except that you're attacking with a Kensei weapon and making at least one unarmed attack. This is what you do anyhow and it's +2 AC. I just wish Monks had more ASIs available to add Defensive Duelist to this.
Sharpen the Blade is 1-3 Ki to add an equal amount to the to-hit and damage bonuses for a minute. Pretty good payoff IMHO. It's a shame you don't get it until level 11.
I believe a Whip can be chosen as a Kensei weapon, adding a bit of Reach if necessary.
I have Tasha's but I haven't read all the way through it yet. The other day I was making a Fighter and saw the Unarmed Fighting Style. If you have nothing in your hands you do 1D8 damage. Does this make a 2 level dip (because Action Surge) into any form of Monk a whole new ballgame? The Fighting Style isn't stat dependant (like a Barb's bonus Rage Damage which relies on Str) so it should work for everything except Kensei (because some of their abilities state that they MUST have a Kensei weapon in-hand).
If you are taking Fighter anyway, then it is not really an issue, I don't think. But if you are already a fighter and have access to Versatile weapons like longswords, which will get you d10 damage I don't see the reason to take the fighting style. Unless you are building for Unarmed Attacks only, no weapons, and taking fighter for Action Surge. But it delays when your unarmed strikes are considered magical for overcoming resistances by 2+ levels if you take Fighter before Monk 6.
At level 5 Monk/2 Fighter (level 5 monk for extra attack) and 16 DEX you would be doing 23.5 average damage with two longsword attacks and one bonus action unarmed strike (5.5+5.5+3.5+9dex mod) if all hit. If you did all Unarmed Strikes with the fighting style you would be doing 22.5 average damage with two unarmed strikes as an action and a bonus action unarmed strike (4.5+4.5+4.5+9dex mod). So 1 pt less damage with the fighting style.
Edit: And as far as the fighting style using +STR is because by default all melee attacks use STR and all ranged use DEX, unless a specific exception is listed. And a monks Martial Arts is one such exception, you can use DEX.
Edit: And as far as the fighting style using +STR is because by default all melee attacks use STR and all ranged use DEX, unless a specific exception is listed. And a monks Martial Arts is one such exception, you can use DEX.
Yeah Martial Arts should apply; basically Unarmed Fighting sets the dice to d8 + STR (instead of the normal 1 + STR) then Martial Arts lets you use DEX in place of STR, but doesn't conflict with the damage die because whether or not you use the Martial Arts die for damage is optional (you choose when to use it, though since there's no advantage to going lower, DDB assumes "when it's better").
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AT level 5. It's simple enough to look at it all like this.
If your Taking Fighter. You can take a LongSword and Deuling style and do more damage by using the once a rest to make the longsword a monk weapon. Than you would taking the fighting style with unarmed.
Ignoring fighting style shenanigans and just making a basic comparison. long sword would add +2 to your DPR. One to each attack on your attack action. The fighting Style is going to add either +1 or +2 to your DPR based upon whether you flurry of blows but over long battles the +1's are going to eventually end up outnumbering the +2's. So at best your doing the same damage but there is a decent likelyhood your doing less damage for taking the fighting style. The fighting Style also becomes useless at 11th level. if you use an Optional Fighter Ability you can change this out at level 12 but you've basically got 1 level mid-game where you do not have a fighting style effectively. So your Either hoping that you can have your campaign end before you reach this point or you can endure for that 3rd tier level where you are getting nothing from fighting styles, Which is basically losing you damage if you were planning on taking a different damage dealing fighting style.
Thri-kreen has already kind of shown the math for it. And like him and others have said. it's just really not worth going out of your way for. The Monk has to many other ways naturally built in to deal with most of it to make it worth the effort in most situations. And it most certainly doesn't turn up the damage that the Monk does really at all. It just shifts the numbers around a little bit.
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I have Tasha's but I haven't read all the way through it yet. The other day I was making a Fighter and saw the Unarmed Fighting Style. If you have nothing in your hands you do 1D8 damage. Does this make a 2 level dip (because Action Surge) into any form of Monk a whole new ballgame? The Fighting Style isn't stat dependant (like a Barb's bonus Rage Damage which relies on Str) so it should work for everything except Kensei (because some of their abilities state that they MUST have a Kensei weapon in-hand).
It's mostly useless for Monks.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/monk/97285-if-you-want-to-be-a-monk-dont-be-a-fighter
The Unarmed Fighting style explicitly states that your unarmed attacks do d6 + your strength modifier bludgeoning damage. Very few Monk builds have much in the way of strength, so how would the UF style help Monks?
I skimmed the first two pages and came away with 'Don't use a Feat to get Unarmed Fighting Style' which is fine because I was planning on a 2-level dip for Action Surge.
Just because most Monk builds don't use Str doesn't mean they can't. And why would anyone use a Fighting Style that gives them the same damage as a Short Sword? UFS means that the Unarmed Strike dice would be D8 (unarmed, no shield) + STR mod, not D6. So I build my Barb/Monk with a High Str, more STR damage from Rage, the 'I don't care what my AC is because I have Resistance' AC. Make him a Goliath and now he's every big Anime Martial Artist ever.
The point of the OP was to bring to light the fact that Unarmed Strikes from UFS are the same as Unarmed Strikes from Martial Arts so I don't have to suffer through 'D4 land' for the early levels.
Its good for V. Human monks that want a damage boost from level 1.
Otherwise monks are not really built to get feats...its a design flaw in their class.
Due to the fact they make a lot of smaller damage attacks and their AC relies on DEX they really really want to max DEX as soon as possible. Then you want to max WIS as soon as possible as your stunning strike DC, AC, and sometimes subclass components rely on it.
This doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room for feats unless you roll for stats and get lucky (like Beau in CR).
I think the answer to the question posed is "not on its own and not for everyone". Shortcutting your way to d8 + STR unarmed strikes is nice, but you have to actually get the fighting style somehow which either means variant human, feat instead of an Ability Score increase (although +DEX or +STR is arguably better for the flat damage and hit chance increase), or taking a multiclass dip (delaying your Martial Arts die increases and other Monk features.
Obviously if you don't expect to hit 11th level, or are multiclassing for other reasons then it's less of an issue, but that won't be the case for everyone in which case Unarmed Fighting basically becomes obsolete at 11th level (in Monk), or comes with a price early on.
One other issue is that Monks don't have to use unarmed strikes all the time, though this will depend on your sub-class; a Monk can use a quarterstaff (a Monk weapon that already deals d8 + DEX/STR) so you're only really increasing the damage on the Martial Arts bonus attack and Flurry of Blows, in which case the actual damage increase is relatively small (like 4 extra per turn). With the Dedicated Weapon and Ki-fuelled Attack optional features (or Kensei and Ki-fuelled Attack) a Monk can also potentially use a longsword for 1d10+DEX/STR three times per turn.
Really it just comes down to it being a tool like anything else; if your goal is to build a character that solves 99% of their problems with punching, or are playing a sub-class whose abilities trigger from unarmed strikes only (e.g- Way of Mercy) then it's a good option to have, but I don't think it's something that every Monk needs to take.
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Agreed. IMHO they should have given them an additional ASI/Feat spot. I built a mishmash Fighter/Barb/Monk but playing it would be a mess unless you were in a game that started around lvl 8 or so. Until then it would be okay but nothing to write home about. The Barb Resistance helps bolster the AC until the stats start going up, the Barb Str bonus helps a bit and the Barb and Monk movement bonuses stack nicely. Making one to play from lvl 1 would suck though.
It's a trap that does nearly no extra damage on average, and inferior damage in the long run.
You get one or two unarmed strikes as a bonus action, your primary one or two attacks are with a versatile quarterstaff, spear, or Longsword, dealing d8 or d10 regardless of the feat, so you've increased the average damage of usually just one bonus action attack by 2.
If your taking a feat, something like mobile will give you better maneuverability, or lucky will turn tables, if your taking fighter for action surge... your now further away from more Ki points, martial arts die increases, ASI bonuses and so on. Monk gets more from ASI than almost any other class. Those early Ki point increases represent a dramatic increase in your total Ki pool, you want 40% less stunning strikes per short rest for 100% more attacks per long rest, go for it.
Dueling fighter style would be worth it potentially with the right build...Kensei comes to mind
When you get Deft Strike eventually you get +6 damage which is pretty good...but nets out at only +3 damage to the die loss (Action Attack/1 Ki for Deft Strike....then BA Ki-Fueled Attack so you get 3(1d8+7) attacks per round at level 6 if you use a V. Human to get the feat
I like Blind Fighting for Shadow monks so you can cast darkness then run in and use Ki-Fueled attack and lock the creature in the darkness with you. If they try to run you can "see" them with blind fighting and you off turn stun which is good deal.
Blind fighting with Shadow monk sounds devastating.
I don't know if I would use a Ki point to use the weapon to attack once rather than flurry to attack twice, the damage modifier on both attacks beats almost any damage die a monk can access, unless it's a reach or thrown weapon when you can't melee an opponent. Maybe if you have a godly magic weapon with extra effects, then you give up your single free punch or fueled double punch for a fueled weapon attack. This will not feel stupid till Fighter gets his third attack with GWM, then your monk questions his life choices.
There's also the attached affects on mercy and open hand monk that make flurry more competitive. It's unfortunate, but monk is the class with the most progression traps.
Unfortunately I don't think you can flurry if you don't use attack action but otherwise I would for sure.
Additional attacks, not only attacks.
Just to clarify, but you don't spend a Ki point to weapon attack as a bonus action with Ki-fulled Strike, you spend a Ki point on something else (Focused Aim, Stunning Strike, Deft Strike for a Kensei, Four Elements disciplines, Shadow Arts on a Shadow Monk etc.) during your action and then get the weapon bonus attack for "free".
Your mileage will vary heavily with what abilities you can do during your action vs. the value you get out of Flurry of Blows; obviously a Way of Mercy Monk gets more out of Flurry once they can Hand of Harm/Healing at the same time, but that's quite high level, Open Palm wants to use Flurry fairly often for their bonus effects though. But there are others who'll be happier spending the Ki as their action, in which case a free weapon bonus attack is better than spending another point of Ki for a Flurry.
But yeah, it's not as simple as "one is better, so do that one" because what comes down to is what else you want to spend your Ki on, and how much you can afford to spend.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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I like Kensei because some of their best traits don't cost Ki or have a rare one-time cost that lasts a minute.
Agile Parry costs nothing except that you're attacking with a Kensei weapon and making at least one unarmed attack. This is what you do anyhow and it's +2 AC. I just wish Monks had more ASIs available to add Defensive Duelist to this.
Sharpen the Blade is 1-3 Ki to add an equal amount to the to-hit and damage bonuses for a minute. Pretty good payoff IMHO. It's a shame you don't get it until level 11.
I believe a Whip can be chosen as a Kensei weapon, adding a bit of Reach if necessary.
If you are taking Fighter anyway, then it is not really an issue, I don't think. But if you are already a fighter and have access to Versatile weapons like longswords, which will get you d10 damage I don't see the reason to take the fighting style. Unless you are building for Unarmed Attacks only, no weapons, and taking fighter for Action Surge. But it delays when your unarmed strikes are considered magical for overcoming resistances by 2+ levels if you take Fighter before Monk 6.
At level 5 Monk/2 Fighter (level 5 monk for extra attack) and 16 DEX you would be doing 23.5 average damage with two longsword attacks and one bonus action unarmed strike (5.5+5.5+3.5+9dex mod) if all hit. If you did all Unarmed Strikes with the fighting style you would be doing 22.5 average damage with two unarmed strikes as an action and a bonus action unarmed strike (4.5+4.5+4.5+9dex mod). So 1 pt less damage with the fighting style.
Edit: And as far as the fighting style using +STR is because by default all melee attacks use STR and all ranged use DEX, unless a specific exception is listed. And a monks Martial Arts is one such exception, you can use DEX.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yeah Martial Arts should apply; basically Unarmed Fighting sets the dice to d8 + STR (instead of the normal 1 + STR) then Martial Arts lets you use DEX in place of STR, but doesn't conflict with the damage die because whether or not you use the Martial Arts die for damage is optional (you choose when to use it, though since there's no advantage to going lower, DDB assumes "when it's better").
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
AT level 5. It's simple enough to look at it all like this.
If your Taking Fighter. You can take a LongSword and Deuling style and do more damage by using the once a rest to make the longsword a monk weapon. Than you would taking the fighting style with unarmed.
Ignoring fighting style shenanigans and just making a basic comparison. long sword would add +2 to your DPR. One to each attack on your attack action. The fighting Style is going to add either +1 or +2 to your DPR based upon whether you flurry of blows but over long battles the +1's are going to eventually end up outnumbering the +2's. So at best your doing the same damage but there is a decent likelyhood your doing less damage for taking the fighting style. The fighting Style also becomes useless at 11th level. if you use an Optional Fighter Ability you can change this out at level 12 but you've basically got 1 level mid-game where you do not have a fighting style effectively. So your Either hoping that you can have your campaign end before you reach this point or you can endure for that 3rd tier level where you are getting nothing from fighting styles, Which is basically losing you damage if you were planning on taking a different damage dealing fighting style.
Thri-kreen has already kind of shown the math for it. And like him and others have said. it's just really not worth going out of your way for. The Monk has to many other ways naturally built in to deal with most of it to make it worth the effort in most situations. And it most certainly doesn't turn up the damage that the Monk does really at all. It just shifts the numbers around a little bit.