If Monk had been comparable from the outset, you'd just have a bunch of people complaining that Fighter got shafted because Monks do the same damage and have all their extra features as well.
I argue with all things considered like the 2 extra feats and combat maneuvers etc, fighters already have more features than monk so this "all monk's extra features" is a backwards statement.
Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks.
If Monk had been comparable from the outset, you'd just have a bunch of people complaining that Fighter got shafted because Monks do the same damage and have all their extra features as well.
I argue with all things considered like the 2 extra feats and combat maneuvers etc, fighters already have more features than monk so this "all monk's extra features" is a backwards statement.
Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks.
Although limited, Manoeuvres are not only a subclass specification but a choice in the fighter's fighting style list, and also a feat.
If Monk had been comparable from the outset, you'd just have a bunch of people complaining that Fighter got shafted because Monks do the same damage and have all their extra features as well.
I argue with all things considered like the 2 extra feats and combat maneuvers etc, fighters already have more features than monk so this "all monk's extra features" is a backwards statement.
Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks.
Although limited, Manoeuvres are not only a subclass specification but a choice in the fighter's fighting style list, and also a feat.
Fighting Style gives you a single maneuver, feat gives you two, and either way you're only getting a single d6 to work with from each. So theoretically a non-battlemaster could have 3 options and 2d6 to work from at most, whereas as Battlemaster starts with 3 options and 4d8 and builds from there. And you're using up resources that could be better spent elsewhere.
"Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks." alot of the monks features come on later as well, empty body, diamond soul. your argument is moot if you want to play it that way. also monk does ok at super low levels. its the not scaling at low level were they start to really be weak ,the opposite of fighter who comes online at high level.
"Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks." alot of the monks features come on later as well, empty body, diamond soul. your argument is moot if you want to play it that way. also monk does ok at super low levels. its the not scaling were they start to really be weak ,the opposite of fighter who comes online at high level.
You're either cherry picking or ignoring that there's more features in between. Stillness of Mind and Evasion are level 7, Purity of Body is level 10. Fighters get a single use of Indomitable at 9, and don't get the next until 13. Notably, the Monk features are either static or infinite use, while Indomitable is 1-3 times per long rest. Monks objectively have a much larger repertoire of class features at every stage, which is the trade off for not being able to maximize combat damage the way a Fighter can, which again is the primary facet of the Fighter's identity.
Monk has a lot of features, but sadly that they do not develop. The problem is not the quantity but the synergy that should be between these features. For example, one of the main problems of the monk at the lower levels is not the attack power but the use of its movement speed and thus would need a feature similar to the Swashbuckler rogue's "Fancy Footwork" skill, or the Mobile, or Crusher, feat (See spiler below).
Fancy Footwork
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn how to land a strike and then slip away without reprisal. During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can't make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.
Mobile
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Your speed increases by 10 feet.
When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement on that turn.
When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
Crusher
You are practiced in the art of crushing your enemies, granting you the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Constitution by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
When you score a critical hit that deals bludgeoning damage to a creature, attack rolls against that creature are made with advantage until the start of your next turn.
If we look at its feature set we can separate the different features between defense,offense and utility:
Unarmored Defense Martial Arts Ki Unarmored Movement Dedicated Weapon (Optional) Monastic Tradition DeflectMissiles Ki-Fueled Attack (Optional) Ability Score Improvement Slow Fall Quickened Healing (Optional) Extra Attack StunningStrike Focused Aim (Optional) Ki-Empowered Strikes Evasion Stillness of Mind Purity of Body Tongue of the Sun and Moon Diamond Soul Timeless Body EmptyBody Perfect Self
The monk tends to develop in a direction that is not agressive, but more diffensive. That in itself goes against the amount of his hit points.
As a synergy between different featurese, we can separate them into blocks:
Defense + Movement : Unarmored Defense / Unarmored Movement / Slow Fall / Evasion
Attack + Support for attack : Martial Arts / Dedicated Weapon (Optional) / Extra Attack / Ki-Empowered Strikes / Ki-Fueled Attack
Resources + features that need them : Ki / Ki-Fueled Attack (Optional) / Deflect Missiles / Quickened Healing (Optional) / Stunning Strike / Focused Aim (Optional) / Diamond Soul / Empty Body / Perfect Self
Body defense : Purity of Body / Diamond Soul / Timeless Body / Stillness of Mind
Tongue of the Sun and Moon /
Its dependence on ki points makes it even weaker. These are definitely few, at least up to 7-8th level, and are only enough to be used for FoB. Without ki points, no FoB and so its attack power is strongly tied to this, as are some of its defensive fetures.
Stillness of Mind + Diamond Soul are overlapping features.
Unarmored Movement + Slow Fall are features that could be combined.
Martial Arts + Dedicated Weapon (Optional) + Ki-Fueled Attack are features that could be combined.
Deflect Missiles + Quickened Healing + Stunning Strike + Focused Aim + Diamond Soul (ki feature) + Empty Body are features that could be combined.
What Monk needs is a clear line of development and optimization among its different features.
Monk has a lot of features, but sadly that they do not develop. The problem is not the quantity but the synergy that should be between these features. For example, one of the main problems of the monk at the lower levels is not the attack power but the use of its movement speed and thus would need a feature similar to the Swashbuckler rogue's "Fancy Footwork" skill, or the Mobile, or Crusher, feat (See spiler below).
Fancy Footwork
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn how to land a strike and then slip away without reprisal. During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can't make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.
Mobile
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Your speed increases by 10 feet.
When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement on that turn.
When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
Crusher
You are practiced in the art of crushing your enemies, granting you the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Constitution by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
When you score a critical hit that deals bludgeoning damage to a creature, attack rolls against that creature are made with advantage until the start of your next turn.
If we look at its feature set we can separate the different features between defense,offense and utility:
Unarmored Defense Martial Arts Ki Unarmored Movement Dedicated Weapon (Optional) Monastic Tradition DeflectMissiles Ki-Fueled Attack (Optional) Ability Score Improvement Slow Fall Quickened Healing (Optional) Extra Attack StunningStrike Focused Aim (Optional) Ki-Empowered Strikes Evasion Stillness of Mind Purity of Body Tongue of the Sun and Moon Diamond Soul Timeless Body EmptyBody Perfect Self
The monk tends to develop in a direction that is not agressive, but more diffensive. That in itself goes against the amount of his hit points.
As a synergy between different featurese, we can separate them into blocks:
Defense + Movement : Unarmored Defense / Unarmored Movement / Slow Fall / Evasion
Attack + Support for attack : Martial Arts / Dedicated Weapon (Optional) / Extra Attack / Ki-Empowered Strikes / Ki-Fueled Attack
Resources + features that need them : Ki / Ki-Fueled Attack (Optional) / Deflect Missiles / Quickened Healing (Optional) / Stunning Strike / Focused Aim (Optional) / Diamond Soul / Empty Body / Perfect Self
Body defense : Purity of Body / Diamond Soul / Timeless Body / Stillness of Mind
Tongue of the Sun and Moon /
Its dependence on ki points makes it even weaker. These are definitely few, at least up to 7-8th level, and are only enough to be used for FoB. Without ki points, no FoB and so its attack power is strongly tied to this, as are some of its defensive fetures.
Stillness of Mind + Diamond Soul are overlapping features.
Unarmored Movement + Slow Fall are features that could be combined.
Martial Arts + Dedicated Weapon (Optional) + Ki-Fueled Attack are features that could be combined.
Deflect Missiles + Quickened Healing + Stunning Strike + Focused Aim + Diamond Soul (ki feature) + Empty Body are features that could be combined.
What Monaco needs is a clear line of development and optimization among its different features.
My issue as I've stated before is that monk's features largely don't stand on their own feet without either subclass options, or feat investment for an already MAD class that doesn't get enough ASIs, or supplementation with magic items which are never guarenteed, or a niche multiclass option.
Barbarians fighters and paladins can all tank perfectly fine while still dishing out respectable damage. Monk has to sacrifice his flurry of blows for patient defense and still wants bracers of defense or some other significant AC bump or subclass like long death if he wants to draw fire. Even rogues between uncanny dodge and evasion are well enough off keeping themselves alive without sacrificing their utility or damage for virtually no effort. All the above classes also eventually have access to + armor and weapons. Unarmored defense actually scales -okay- into the late game but is a primary reason why the class is MAD beyond the DC of stunning strike, which only comes to sabotage its own purpose because now we don't have point to invest into constitution or tough.
Okay so unarmored movement... super nice. I love the idea of zooming around the battlefield, but again, with no real ranged options monk's need to rely on a feat like mobile or crusher, or subclass options like way of the open hand to actually be able to utilize the hit and run tactics the class seems to advertise.
Add to that that most of these features in addition to feeling "incomplete" also cost ki to achieve the same thing or less than other classes can do without resource costs.
Most, if not all these problems are mitigated by making them 1/3rd casters. With a curated list of monk spells that do monk-stuff. It helps break up their reliance on Ki (if that's something you want) or it can help fuel the Ki you're lacking (also if that's what you want). It fixes the issues and it does it in a way that fits right in with anyone's idea of a monk, and any playstyle.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Most, if not all these problems are mitigated by making them 1/3rd casters. With a curated list of monk spells that do monk-stuff. It helps break up their reliance on Ki (if that's something you want) or it can help fuel the Ki you're lacking (also if that's what you want). It fixes the issues and it does it in a way that fits right in with anyone's idea of a monk, and any playstyle.
I think the better solution would be to give them a second bonus action, or make some things like step of the wind or patient defense a free action, once per turn (but maintain the ki cost)
I think stunning strike should be reworked so as to discourage dumping every single ki point into a stunning attempt until it works... one idea I had was to apply a stunning strike attempt only after 3-4 successful hits land on a single enemy which would encourage more flurry attempts over saving ki for stunning strike. Other options could include a kind of "charger" effect where if the monk closes a 30 foot gap before making an attack on an enemy, stunning strike becomes available which would make step of the wind more enticing.
Mobile needs to be a default feature and added to unarmored movement.
Most, if not all these problems are mitigated by making them 1/3rd casters. With a curated list of monk spells that do monk-stuff. It helps break up their reliance on Ki (if that's something you want) or it can help fuel the Ki you're lacking (also if that's what you want). It fixes the issues and it does it in a way that fits right in with anyone's idea of a monk, and any playstyle.
I think the better solution would be to give them a second bonus action, or make some things like step of the wind or patient defense a free action, once per turn (but maintain the ki cost)
I think stunning strike should be reworked so as to discourage dumping every single ki point into a stunning attempt until it works... one idea I had was to apply a stunning strike attempt only after 3-4 successful hits land on a single enemy which would encourage more flurry attempts over saving ki for stunning strike. Other options could include a kind of "charger" effect where if the monk closes a 30 foot gap before making an attack on an enemy, stunning strike becomes available which would make step of the wind more enticing.
Mobile needs to be a default feature and added to unarmored movement.
Yeah that's fun too. Making stunning more like a rider effect if you can satisfy the requirements. Like a harder-to-achieve sneak attack. But stuns instead of damages.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Most, if not all these problems are mitigated by making them 1/3rd casters. With a curated list of monk spells that do monk-stuff. It helps break up their reliance on Ki (if that's something you want) or it can help fuel the Ki you're lacking (also if that's what you want). It fixes the issues and it does it in a way that fits right in with anyone's idea of a monk, and any playstyle.
I think the better solution would be to give them a second bonus action, or make some things like step of the wind or patient defense a free action, once per turn (but maintain the ki cost)
I think stunning strike should be reworked so as to discourage dumping every single ki point into a stunning attempt until it works... one idea I had was to apply a stunning strike attempt only after 3-4 successful hits land on a single enemy which would encourage more flurry attempts over saving ki for stunning strike. Other options could include a kind of "charger" effect where if the monk closes a 30 foot gap before making an attack on an enemy, stunning strike becomes available which would make step of the wind more enticing.
Mobile needs to be a default feature and added to unarmored movement.
Yeah that's fun too. Making stunning more like a rider effect if you can satisfy the requirements. Like a harder-to-achieve sneak attack. But stuns instead of damages.
Mhmm... I think it would be excellent.. it's a shame that monk's have all these beautiful features that look nice in the description but in play don't synergies well, and most monk's simply end up being stunbot paper bags.
The issue I have with the 3rd caster is that one of the reasons monk's struggle to optimize all their features is basic action economy.. combined with ki economy.. adding more actions or bonus actions only compounds the problem. They actually need more bonus actions or certain things need to be combined like freedom of movement when you flurry or stunning strike as a rider or tie patient defense and missile snatching into a single reaction
"Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks." alot of the monks features come on later as well, empty body, diamond soul. your argument is moot if you want to play it that way. also monk does ok at super low levels. its the not scaling were they start to really be weak ,the opposite of fighter who comes online at high level.
You're either cherry picking or ignoring that there's more features in between. Stillness of Mind and Evasion are level 7, Purity of Body is level 10. Fighters get a single use of Indomitable at 9, and don't get the next until 13. Notably, the Monk features are either static or infinite use, while Indomitable is 1-3 times per long rest. Monks objectively have a much larger repertoire of class features at every stage, which is the trade off for not being able to maximize combat damage the way a Fighter can, which again is the primary facet of the Fighter's identity.
This is the kind of mindset I hope they dont lead with. Monks should be able to do similar dpr and scale properly . My class identity is I'm better at you then combat is not a good argument especially when many gishes can already beat the fighter easily. also that's warriors in General out of combat they are not the best and so they all should be able to good dpr and have their own flavor. Your argument sounds like a wow argument . for years hybrid specs had to suck becuase them being good "infringed on the identity of other classes". Monks in pathfinder can do similar damage to fighter's and each have their own identity .
2) How do they design the class to fit that identity without encroaching on other class's identities?
Idk, maybe just make it a fighter subclass. People seem to just want it to fight gud.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
2) How do they design the class to fit that identity without encroaching on other class's identities?
Idk, maybe just make it a fighter subclass. People seem to just want it to fight gud.
That would not be my preference - maybe I am in the minority, but I really enjoy the features that make the monk different from just an unarmed fighter, identifying them as a master of their own body and mind through introspection, intuition, and discipline:
- the "Ninja" abilities like the Unarmored Movement speed, running up walls and across water, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike
- the "Zen" abilities, like Slow Fall, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun & Moon, Empty Body, and yes, even Timeless Body, because I happen to enjoy the roleplaying aspects a lot
2) How do they design the class to fit that identity without encroaching on other class's identities?
Idk, maybe just make it a fighter subclass. People seem to just want it to fight gud.
That would not be my preference - maybe I am in the minority, but I really enjoy the features that make the monk different from just an unarmed fighter, identifying them as a master of their own body and mind through introspection, intuition, and discipline:
- the "Ninja" abilities like the Unarmored Movement speed, running up walls and across water, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike
- the "Zen" abilities, like Slow Fall, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun & Moon, Empty Body, and yes, even Timeless Body, because I happen to enjoy the roleplaying aspects a lot
That could be their subclass features.
It'd be easy enough to do. Just change brawling style to "You treat your unarmed strikes as light finesse weapons that deal a d6".
Then have them gain monk features when they take the subclass stuff.
Then you could even mix and match. Pull off some samurai stuff and ninja stuff, not just unarmed monks but all sorts of zen martial artists.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
2) How do they design the class to fit that identity without encroaching on other class's identities?
Idk, maybe just make it a fighter subclass. People seem to just want it to fight gud.
That would not be my preference - maybe I am in the minority, but I really enjoy the features that make the monk different from just an unarmed fighter, identifying them as a master of their own body and mind through introspection, intuition, and discipline:
- the "Ninja" abilities like the Unarmored Movement speed, running up walls and across water, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike
- the "Zen" abilities, like Slow Fall, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun & Moon, Empty Body, and yes, even Timeless Body, because I happen to enjoy the roleplaying aspects a lot
That could be their subclass features.
It'd be easy enough to do. Just change brawling style to "You treat your unarmed strikes as light finesse weapons that deal a d6".
Then have them gain monk features when they take the subclass stuff.
Then you could even mix and match. Pull off some samurai stuff and ninja stuff, not just unarmed monks but all sorts of zen martial artists.
I dunno... that means loosing out on all the current monk-subclass features, AND loosing more than half of the features listed above, since I doubt packing all these into 4 fighter subclass features would happen / be balanced...
2) How do they design the class to fit that identity without encroaching on other class's identities?
Idk, maybe just make it a fighter subclass. People seem to just want it to fight gud.
That would not be my preference - maybe I am in the minority, but I really enjoy the features that make the monk different from just an unarmed fighter, identifying them as a master of their own body and mind through introspection, intuition, and discipline:
- the "Ninja" abilities like the Unarmored Movement speed, running up walls and across water, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike
- the "Zen" abilities, like Slow Fall, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun & Moon, Empty Body, and yes, even Timeless Body, because I happen to enjoy the roleplaying aspects a lot
That could be their subclass features.
It'd be easy enough to do. Just change brawling style to "You treat your unarmed strikes as light finesse weapons that deal a d6".
Then have them gain monk features when they take the subclass stuff.
Then you could even mix and match. Pull off some samurai stuff and ninja stuff, not just unarmed monks but all sorts of zen martial artists.
I dunno... that means loosing out on all the current monk-subclass features, AND loosing more than half of the features listed above, since I doubt packing all these into 4 fighter subclass features would happen / be balanced...
From my experience, most of the time the rest of the table can barely even tell you what subclass their party’s monk even is. The monk class has probably the least impactful subclasses of all the classes.
The rest is easy enough to incorporate as subclass features. Some mobility. Some zen vibes. Easy.
The argument here is really that they're not fighter-y enough for people. So we just make them fighters, and it solves the whole problem.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
2) How do they design the class to fit that identity without encroaching on other class's identities?
Idk, maybe just make it a fighter subclass. People seem to just want it to fight gud.
That would not be my preference - maybe I am in the minority, but I really enjoy the features that make the monk different from just an unarmed fighter, identifying them as a master of their own body and mind through introspection, intuition, and discipline:
- the "Ninja" abilities like the Unarmored Movement speed, running up walls and across water, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike
- the "Zen" abilities, like Slow Fall, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun & Moon, Empty Body, and yes, even Timeless Body, because I happen to enjoy the roleplaying aspects a lot
That could be their subclass features.
It'd be easy enough to do. Just change brawling style to "You treat your unarmed strikes as light finesse weapons that deal a d6".
Then have them gain monk features when they take the subclass stuff.
Then you could even mix and match. Pull off some samurai stuff and ninja stuff, not just unarmed monks but all sorts of zen martial artists.
I dunno... that means loosing out on all the current monk-subclass features, AND loosing more than half of the features listed above, since I doubt packing all these into 4 fighter subclass features would happen / be balanced...
From my experience, most of the time the rest of the table can barely even tell you what subclass their party’s monk even is. The monk class has probably the least impactful subclasses of all the classes.
The rest is easy enough to incorporate as subclass features. Some mobility. Some zen vibes. Easy.
The argument here is really that they're not fighter-y enough for people. So we just make them fighters, and it solves the whole problem.
Well, I guess am on the other side of that argument, and that's fine! I like less fighter and more monk in my monk... :)
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Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks.
Although limited, Manoeuvres are not only a subclass specification but a choice in the fighter's fighting style list, and also a feat.
Fighting Style gives you a single maneuver, feat gives you two, and either way you're only getting a single d6 to work with from each. So theoretically a non-battlemaster could have 3 options and 2d6 to work from at most, whereas as Battlemaster starts with 3 options and 4d8 and builds from there. And you're using up resources that could be better spent elsewhere.
"Extra feats are nice, but functionally it's closer to 1 since the second extra feat isn't until level 14, which is not a common level of play. And maneuvers are specific to one subclass of Fighter, whereas we're talking core class features here. And, even if we allow these points to stand, that's still two features vs easily a half dozen from monks." alot of the monks features come on later as well, empty body, diamond soul. your argument is moot if you want to play it that way. also monk does ok at super low levels. its the not scaling at low level were they start to really be weak ,the opposite of fighter who comes online at high level.
You're either cherry picking or ignoring that there's more features in between. Stillness of Mind and Evasion are level 7, Purity of Body is level 10. Fighters get a single use of Indomitable at 9, and don't get the next until 13. Notably, the Monk features are either static or infinite use, while Indomitable is 1-3 times per long rest. Monks objectively have a much larger repertoire of class features at every stage, which is the trade off for not being able to maximize combat damage the way a Fighter can, which again is the primary facet of the Fighter's identity.
Monk has a lot of features, but sadly that they do not develop. The problem is not the quantity but the synergy that should be between these features. For example, one of the main problems of the monk at the lower levels is not the attack power but the use of its movement speed and thus would need a feature similar to the Swashbuckler rogue's "Fancy Footwork" skill, or the Mobile, or Crusher, feat (See spiler below).
Fancy Footwork
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn how to land a strike and then slip away without reprisal. During your turn, if you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature can't make opportunity attacks against you for the rest of your turn.
Mobile
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Crusher
If we look at its feature set we can separate the different features between defense, offense and utility:
Unarmored Defense
Martial Arts
Ki
Unarmored Movement
Dedicated Weapon (Optional)
Monastic Tradition
Deflect Missiles
Ki-Fueled Attack (Optional)
Ability Score Improvement
Slow Fall
Quickened Healing (Optional)
Extra Attack
Stunning Strike
Focused Aim (Optional)
Ki-Empowered Strikes
Evasion
Stillness of Mind
Purity of Body
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Diamond Soul
Timeless Body
Empty Body
Perfect Self
The monk tends to develop in a direction that is not agressive, but more diffensive. That in itself goes against the amount of his hit points.
As a synergy between different featurese, we can separate them into blocks:
Defense + Movement : Unarmored Defense / Unarmored Movement / Slow Fall / Evasion
Attack + Support for attack : Martial Arts / Dedicated Weapon (Optional) / Extra Attack / Ki-Empowered Strikes / Ki-Fueled Attack
Resources + features that need them : Ki / Ki-Fueled Attack (Optional) / Deflect Missiles / Quickened Healing (Optional) / Stunning Strike / Focused Aim (Optional) / Diamond Soul / Empty Body / Perfect Self
Body defense : Purity of Body / Diamond Soul / Timeless Body / Stillness of Mind
Tongue of the Sun and Moon /
Its dependence on ki points makes it even weaker. These are definitely few, at least up to 7-8th level, and are only enough to be used for FoB. Without ki points, no FoB and so its attack power is strongly tied to this, as are some of its defensive fetures.
Stillness of Mind + Diamond Soul are overlapping features.
Unarmored Movement + Slow Fall are features that could be combined.
Martial Arts + Dedicated Weapon (Optional) + Ki-Fueled Attack are features that could be combined.
Deflect Missiles + Quickened Healing + Stunning Strike + Focused Aim + Diamond Soul (ki feature) + Empty Body are features that could be combined.
What Monk needs is a clear line of development and optimization among its different features.
My issue as I've stated before is that monk's features largely don't stand on their own feet without either subclass options, or feat investment for an already MAD class that doesn't get enough ASIs, or supplementation with magic items which are never guarenteed, or a niche multiclass option.
Barbarians fighters and paladins can all tank perfectly fine while still dishing out respectable damage. Monk has to sacrifice his flurry of blows for patient defense and still wants bracers of defense or some other significant AC bump or subclass like long death if he wants to draw fire. Even rogues between uncanny dodge and evasion are well enough off keeping themselves alive without sacrificing their utility or damage for virtually no effort. All the above classes also eventually have access to + armor and weapons. Unarmored defense actually scales -okay- into the late game but is a primary reason why the class is MAD beyond the DC of stunning strike, which only comes to sabotage its own purpose because now we don't have point to invest into constitution or tough.
Okay so unarmored movement... super nice. I love the idea of zooming around the battlefield, but again, with no real ranged options monk's need to rely on a feat like mobile or crusher, or subclass options like way of the open hand to actually be able to utilize the hit and run tactics the class seems to advertise.
Add to that that most of these features in addition to feeling "incomplete" also cost ki to achieve the same thing or less than other classes can do without resource costs.
Most, if not all these problems are mitigated by making them 1/3rd casters. With a curated list of monk spells that do monk-stuff. It helps break up their reliance on Ki (if that's something you want) or it can help fuel the Ki you're lacking (also if that's what you want). It fixes the issues and it does it in a way that fits right in with anyone's idea of a monk, and any playstyle.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think the better solution would be to give them a second bonus action, or make some things like step of the wind or patient defense a free action, once per turn (but maintain the ki cost)
I think stunning strike should be reworked so as to discourage dumping every single ki point into a stunning attempt until it works... one idea I had was to apply a stunning strike attempt only after 3-4 successful hits land on a single enemy which would encourage more flurry attempts over saving ki for stunning strike. Other options could include a kind of "charger" effect where if the monk closes a 30 foot gap before making an attack on an enemy, stunning strike becomes available which would make step of the wind more enticing.
Mobile needs to be a default feature and added to unarmored movement.
Yeah that's fun too. Making stunning more like a rider effect if you can satisfy the requirements. Like a harder-to-achieve sneak attack. But stuns instead of damages.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Mhmm... I think it would be excellent.. it's a shame that monk's have all these beautiful features that look nice in the description but in play don't synergies well, and most monk's simply end up being stunbot paper bags.
The issue I have with the 3rd caster is that one of the reasons monk's struggle to optimize all their features is basic action economy.. combined with ki economy.. adding more actions or bonus actions only compounds the problem. They actually need more bonus actions or certain things need to be combined like freedom of movement when you flurry or stunning strike as a rider or tie patient defense and missile snatching into a single reaction
This is the kind of mindset I hope they dont lead with. Monks should be able to do similar dpr and scale properly . My class identity is I'm better at you then combat is not a good argument especially when many gishes can already beat the fighter easily. also that's warriors in General out of combat they are not the best and so they all should be able to good dpr and have their own flavor. Your argument sounds like a wow argument . for years hybrid specs had to suck becuase them being good "infringed on the identity of other classes". Monks in pathfinder can do similar damage to fighter's and each have their own identity .
Thought.
1) What do they want the CALSS IDENTITY to be?
2) How do they design the class to fit that identity without encroaching on other class's identities?
Idk, maybe just make it a fighter subclass. People seem to just want it to fight gud.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Waiting to see difference between Unarmed fighter and Monk.
That would not be my preference - maybe I am in the minority, but I really enjoy the features that make the monk different from just an unarmed fighter, identifying them as a master of their own body and mind through introspection, intuition, and discipline:
- the "Ninja" abilities like the Unarmored Movement speed, running up walls and across water, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike
- the "Zen" abilities, like Slow Fall, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body, Diamond Soul, Tongue of the Sun & Moon, Empty Body, and yes, even Timeless Body, because I happen to enjoy the roleplaying aspects a lot
That could be their subclass features.
It'd be easy enough to do. Just change brawling style to "You treat your unarmed strikes as light finesse weapons that deal a d6".
Then have them gain monk features when they take the subclass stuff.
Then you could even mix and match. Pull off some samurai stuff and ninja stuff, not just unarmed monks but all sorts of zen martial artists.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I dunno... that means loosing out on all the current monk-subclass features, AND loosing more than half of the features listed above, since I doubt packing all these into 4 fighter subclass features would happen / be balanced...
From my experience, most of the time the rest of the table can barely even tell you what subclass their party’s monk even is. The monk class has probably the least impactful subclasses of all the classes.
The rest is easy enough to incorporate as subclass features. Some mobility. Some zen vibes. Easy.
The argument here is really that they're not fighter-y enough for people. So we just make them fighters, and it solves the whole problem.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Well, I guess am on the other side of that argument, and that's fine! I like less fighter and more monk in my monk... :)