The biggest improvements since release of the 2024 PHB is that Monks are now signifcantly more durable and don't have to spend quite as much Ki F.P. to do basic stuff that the Rogue has been able to do since the first 5E PHB was release 10 years ago. The other major change is that their action economy is bit smoother what with the change to language around the Attack action and Flurry of Blows not having to rely on doing the Attack action first. Positive direction in several ways.
Still just as Multi-Attri-Dependent as before.
A slightly bigger choice of feats.
Stunning feels ... less like actual stunning. Workable, less OP. Fine.
No weapon masteries for Monk. What did I say about Monks not Getting Nice Things? Well, that's true in this case. I guess the devs thought that keeping track of your F.P. is the best part of playing a Monk, cause they sure drove that point home by making sure Monks could not have any free control abilies. No sirreeeeee, Bobski.
No more communicating with the all the fishies and furries, etc. at high level. While some people said that was purely a ribbon feature, I thought it was cool (if a bit weird) for a base class feature.
But.... it seems that the devs put so much into the base class update that the subclasses seem, ummmm, really boring.
Like, Open Hand 2024 is almost exactly the same as previous Open Hand but better basic mobility, which is fine but uninspiring.
Shadow Monk 2024 is a sort of upgrade. Seeing thru your own Darkness spell w/out a feat or multiclassing is solid. Everything else is ... okay. This was already one of the most efficient users of D.P. of the official Monks, so the change of short-term invisibility at 11th level by making it into a 17th level ability that lasts longer with a bit of offense added for free costing 3 P.S. points looks like an upgrade but really doesn't feel celebration-worthy since almost nobody plays to level 17 anyway.
War of Mercy 2024. A reprint of the Tasha's version, basically. No comment on this one.
War of the Elements is soooo boring. Elemental damage boosts here, resistances there. Some push/pull abilities are useful. Okay, so more playable than the Way of the Four Elements, which was just badly designed in so many ways. Gawd. But this.... this is... just dull. Efficient but dull, like a lot marriages after 4 years. No ability to set things on fire, no creating stony cover for your Rogue or spellcaster friends, no ability to change terrain or feel like an actual Bender of the Elements. I guess flight is nice, but there are sooooo many flight options since Tasha's came out that their 11th level feature is just another "Oh, you too?" instead of "OMG! I totes want to try that too!!" IOW, "Where's the passion here, dahling?" Not here, that's for sure. Four out of Five Snoozies.
Fresh off of playing my new 2024 Monk last night, and it was not boring at all for me. Curious: do you find martials boring in general? I'd say Monks are generally less boring of the martials, no?
1. Ability to engage: Between the mobility, multiple attack options, and the better action economy, I was able to open with a dash as a BA (for free now) to cover the gap to get an attack off. I also could have used a ranged weapon, and dodged as a BA to prepare for any ranged attacks. Also their improved damage dice rewards getting into melee a bit more, which relates to:
2. Deflect Attacks: a huge improvement on 2014's Deflect Missiles, which only did ranged weapons. Now it works on any B/P/S damage, reducing it by d10 + Dex mod + Monk lvl. At level 3, that is already 7-16 damage reduction once per turn. That is huge early on, really mitigating their squishiness and thus freeing you up to be bolder to get into melee, where Monks need to be to shine.
3. Focus Points freer: With fewer things costing Focus Points, that frees up the Monk to use them more often and use their free abilities of course. That is fun! Also recovering all FPs with Uncanny Metabolism absolutely freed me up to use them when I needed, knowing I'd be able to get them back for the next battle. Fun.
4. Grappling: I hear you on weapon masteries, but I think Grappling is Monk's de facto mastery now, especially with the new & improved Grappler feat, which allows you to Grapple freely as part of an unarmed attack and gives you Advantage on your attacks against them. Sure that costs a feat, but the 2024 version now also boosts your DEX or STR. So it's a natural first feat for Monks. Who also can now use their DEX to Grapple (for the DC).
That all is pretty fun to me, and that's just the base class at early levels. You don't seem to care for the new subclasses, which is fine. I'm not super familiar with them, but have seen mostly positive reviews. My subclass is Way of Mercy, which still absolutely slaps.
4. Damage Boost: Mercy's Hand of Harm is like a mini-smite for the Monk: extra Martial Arts die + WIS dmg. At level 3, that's d6 + 3. Finished off a tough guy, and still confident I'll have more FPs for next combat thanks to aforementioned Uncanny Metabolism.
5. Healing: Mercy's Hand of Healing allows me to do more than just damage and sprint around. Keeping allies up is especially fun, cuz teamwork is fun! This replaces one attack in your Flurry of Blows, so at level 3, you can heal someone for d6 + 3 and still get two attacks off, for 1 FP. That's pretty good. And the Monk's mobility means they can more easily get to allies that need it.
Battlefield dynamism and greater freedom to use class features so far has this feeling pretty fun. At level 3. When I look forward to Monk's class features and Mercy's subclass features, they all look to build on what I want to do as a Mercy Monk: stun & auto-poison enemies, heal allies' conditions, dragging allies & foes across the battlefield, stronger resiliency to stay in the game, etc. Little waste in my eyes.
I have to agree. 24 Monk is much more dynamic than 14. I was playing Elements, which got the biggest upgrade. Now, instead of theoretically interesting powers I might use once per short rest, and most of which the group's casters do better, I have unique abilities that I can use all the time.
Also, I don't really get the "no weapon masteries" complaint. I don't use weapons anymore. Admittedly, that's partly because I'm elements, and my staff doesn't get the reach and other benefits.
I have to agree. 24 Monk is much more dynamic than 14. I was playing Elements, which got the biggest upgrade. Now, instead of theoretically interesting powers I might use once per short rest, and most of which the group's casters do better, I have unique abilities that I can use all the time.
Also, I don't really get the "no weapon masteries" complaint. I don't use weapons anymore. Admittedly, that's partly because I'm elements, and my staff doesn't get the reach and other benefits.
I also think there has been a significant improvement compared to the 2014 monk. I also think that the monk doesn't need weapon mastery, as in many cases the monk has abilities that work better with unarmed attacks than armed ones.
What's missing, however, is improving the rules of unarmed combat and making them as interesting as weapon mastery. I agree that the monk has advantages in grappling, but not everyone likes grappling strategy and not everyone likes to push as some monk subclasses do.
It would be nice if unarmed combat also had the option to choose its style. When you see other warrior classes that have a choice between weapons and weapon techniques, in comparison, the monk can only push because it is a subclass ability, and if it wants to do something different, it has to sacrifice damage in order to push 5 feet, or grab, or knock down, which is a bit envy-inducing.
The monk lacks freedom of customization. The semi-magical classes have spells, the fighter has the option of different feats, fighting styles, and weapon mastery, and the rogue and barbarian have weapon mastery.
Yeah I also don't think I miss Weapon Mastery on a Monk, due to the combo of grapple/push easily available via subclasses/feats, plus debuffs like Stunning Strike, Mercy Monk’s auto-poison, etc.
To me, it makes sense Thematically & structurally for more weapon-oriented classes like Fighters to get Weapon Masteries. Some kind of masteries for unarmed attacks would certainly be cool, though I think there is enough equivalence already.
Re: customization, Monks certainly have less because they seem to put more features of weight into the class and subclasses themselves. So the customization moment, per se, is more picking Monk and picking the subclass in the first place.
Fighter is kind of designed to be most customizable from the extra feats. But also being less MAD. Monks are certainly pretty restricted on feats since they need so much ASI love. That changes a bi if you roll for stats though.
Look, if Monks could do stuff like push 5 feet, knock prone, slow the enemy, etc. without having to be pidgeon-holed into one or two specific subclasses while ALSO doing unarmed strike damage without spending FocusP, then they would not need Weapon Masteries. The fact that doing cool stuff with your hands/feet other than punching/kicking is locked behind boring, flavorless, dull as a brick wall subclasses like the Open Hand and the Elements Monk means that few other Monks from here on out are likely to get low-cost or no-cost control abilities without eating into their direct DPR. Like I said from the outset, 2024 Monks are stronger but more boring. So the devs satisfied people like Treantmonk or whatever YTuber for pure DPR reasons, but the flavor of the class and subclasses has not actually improved. The variety of stuff you can do as a Monk has not improved.
Look, if Monks could do stuff like push 5 feet, knock prone, slow the enemy, etc. without having to be pidgeon-holed into one or two specific subclasses while ALSO doing unarmed strike damage without spending FocusP, then they would not need Weapon Masteries. The fact that doing cool stuff with your hands/feet other than punching/kicking is locked behind boring, flavorless, dull as a brick wall subclasses like the Open Hand and the Elements Monk means that few other Monks from here on out are likely to get low-cost or no-cost control abilities without eating into their direct DPR. Like I said from the outset, 2024 Monks are stronger but more boring. So the devs satisfied people like Treantmonk or whatever YTuber for pure DPR reasons, but the flavor of the class and subclasses has not actually improved. The variety of stuff you can do as a Monk has not improved.
I disagree. To me, having to make a choice between doing damage or using a control ability is what makes them interesting. Tactical round-to-round choices are interesting. Being able to damage and control with every attack means makes it the clearly superior option, meaning there is no choice. You'd do the same thing with every attack, and that's what would make it boring. And monks still have lots of things they do that other classes can't do.
Also, it's kind of strange that you're criticizing others for saying they wanted improved dpr, and then basically saying you want improved dpr (since that's what damaging when you use a control option is). And, if you want that playstyle, you can always take the grappler feat. It's a very good choice for a monk.
Look, if Monks could do stuff like push 5 feet, knock prone, slow the enemy, etc. without having to be pidgeon-holed into one or two specific subclasses while ALSO doing unarmed strike damage without spending FocusP, then they would not need Weapon Masteries. The fact that doing cool stuff with your hands/feet other than punching/kicking is locked behind boring, flavorless, dull as a brick wall subclasses like the Open Hand and the Elements Monk means that few other Monks from here on out are likely to get low-cost or no-cost control abilities without eating into their direct DPR. Like I said from the outset, 2024 Monks are stronger but more boring. So the devs satisfied people like Treantmonk or whatever YTuber for pure DPR reasons, but the flavor of the class and subclasses has not actually improved. The variety of stuff you can do as a Monk has not improved.
I disagree. To me, having to make a choice between doing damage or using a control ability is what makes them interesting. Tactical round-to-round choices are interesting. Being able to damage and control with every attack means makes it the clearly superior option, meaning there is no choice. You'd do the same thing with every attack, and that's what would make it boring. And monks still have lots of things they do that other classes can't do.
Also, it's kind of strange that you're criticizing others for saying they wanted improved dpr, and then basically saying you want improved dpr (since that's what damaging when you use a control option is). And, if you want that playstyle, you can always take the grappler feat. It's a very good choice for a monk.
No, my point is that IF Monk base DPR is based on # of attacks as opposed to feats granting boosts to damage, it makes sense that when they push or knock prone, etc., they should not be sacrificing damage of that unarmed strike entirely to do so. The bigger damage dice is less useful, actually, than being able to control your opponents' actions b/c Monks have never been a crit fisher-centric class.
And somehow, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian and Rogue get to do Damage + control effect WITHOUT spending resources and WITH damage. It makes no sense that someone who is literally trained specifically using their hands or limbs to fight is more limited in doing so than someone using an implement when Hands are far more flexible in their variety of motion than any dagger, sword, or warhammer. Like I said earlier, the word "manipulate" comes from the Latin word for hand, which is "manus". As such the physical manipulation of one's opponent should be EASIER not HARDER when you are literally fighting with your hands (not covered in gloves).
I have to agree. 24 Monk is much more dynamic than 14. I was playing Elements, which got the biggest upgrade. Now, instead of theoretically interesting powers I might use once per short rest, and most of which the group's casters do better, I have unique abilities that I can use all the time.
Also, I don't really get the "no weapon masteries" complaint. I don't use weapons anymore. Admittedly, that's partly because I'm elements, and my staff doesn't get the reach and other benefits.
The new Elements Monk is exactly what I wrote in the Title: Stronger but also more Boring. The push feature of the subclass is more streamlined from the 2014 Elements Monk, but you could effectively do similar things back then. So you can fly or swim without a spell slot now. Whoopdeedoo. So can, like, 8 other subclasses now. You have no real element bending powers. You cannot light stuff on fire. You cannot make big rocks pop out of the ground. You cannot trap enemies under a pile of rubble. You cannot create or modify any landscape feature whatsoever. How is this anything like a "bender of elements?" It isn't. You don't even get cantrips like Shape Water or Mold Earth.
It's just more generic Elemental damage oatmeal in the shape of a Monk. IOW, the devs said: " Let's give them a souped-up Sun Soul Monk who can fly and swim and just have the name "Element" in it. Mehh, who cares about the Avatar franchise. Good thing that live action movie sucked, LOL. This is so much easier to program into our VTT" (that they just scrapped after years of development.)
I don't think the monk lacks in variety of features, quite the contrary. I would say that boredom could stem more from the fact that there is little room for customization. The 2024 monk has many interesting features that can give a tactical advantage in battle.
The ability to grab, or shove, even if you have to sacrifice damage. Focus. Disengagement and Dash as a bonus action at no cost Uncanny Metabolism and Perfect Focus. which allow you to have more resources. Deflect Attacks and “Deflect Energy. which now includes every weapon and magic attack, both ranged and melee. Stunning Strike. reduced but effective. Heightened Focus - SotW. allows you to carry an ally during your movement, whether to enter or exit melee.
Unfortunately, these are the features and there is no choice of maneuvers. I have always found it fun to look for combinations of spells, feats, class abilities, and subclasses. With the monk, there is little to do except choose skills, the origin feat, race, and the subclass (Fetas perhaps, but complicated). Personally, I would love it if the monk class were more like the battle master, where one can choose combat techniques instead of using the basic rules of unarmed combat (which all classes can use). But these are just personal preferences.
I have to say one thing, even if it can be defined as a strategic choice to help the group, in my opinion having to choose between damage and an effect is frustrating, especially when other classes can combine effects. This also happens if one wants to use SotW ot PD and has to sacrifice “Bonus Unarmed Strike.” While other classes can use “Nick” to optimize their action, the monk has to make a choice. Frustrating but acceptable, considering that “Nick” is designed for weapons that do less damage.
Another frustrating thing is the fact that the monk is a class with few HP, but “Deflect Attacks” and “Deflect Energy” propose a riskier style of play in order to make the most of the reaction attack. I'm not saying it's bad, in fact, one could assume to make a dwarf monk with the “Tough” feat and have a wilder style. But if these features are never used, it could create a feeling of frustration.
Then, of course, it is also up to the DM to create situations so that the monk can make the most of his abilities in order to ensure greater enjoyment.
In conclusion, the monk is a class that offers many features with little room for customization. It is far from perfect but perfectly playable and interesting. Perhaps complicated due to the features that require a choice, but that is part of the game. In some cases, it may be frustrating due to the many unused features, but this is a problem that can be solved by a good DM who offers players the opportunity to make the most of each player's different characteristics by offering customized challenges. If these opportunities do not arise or are not seized, it is a situation that needs to be resolved within the gaming group.
I have to agree. 24 Monk is much more dynamic than 14. I was playing Elements, which got the biggest upgrade. Now, instead of theoretically interesting powers I might use once per short rest, and most of which the group's casters do better, I have unique abilities that I can use all the time.
Also, I don't really get the "no weapon masteries" complaint. I don't use weapons anymore. Admittedly, that's partly because I'm elements, and my staff doesn't get the reach and other benefits.
The new Elements Monk is exactly what I wrote in the Title: Stronger but also more Boring. The push feature of the subclass is more streamlined from the 2014 Elements Monk, but you could effectively do similar things back then. So you can fly or swim without a spell slot now. Whoopdeedoo. So can, like, 8 other subclasses now. You have no real element bending powers. You cannot light stuff on fire. You cannot make big rocks pop out of the ground. You cannot trap enemies under a pile of rubble. You cannot create or modify any landscape feature whatsoever. How is this anything like a "bender of elements?" It isn't. You don't even get cantrips like Shape Water or Mold Earth.
Those powers you make so much of were largely illusory. They were so expensive to use, and came so late compared to the casters, that they were rarely worth using. I took the push-pull stuff because it was actually unique to the monk, and I still almost never did it, because it wasn't worth spending a third or more of my tank.
Now, I spend one point, and can run around pushing, pulling, grappling at range with mad abandon. And I do. I even occasionally use the mini-fireball.
Powers you actually use are better than powers that you don't. Even if they reduced the cost of the spells, they were still going to be inflexible and unimpressive compared to the casters. The powers elements have now are better for what the monk actually does. If they want a caster monk, they can make an eldritch knight equivalent, and it'll probably be ok.
It's just more generic Elemental damage oatmeal in the shape of a Monk. IOW, the devs said: " Let's give them a souped-up Sun Soul Monk who can fly and swim and just have the name "Element" in it. Mehh, who cares about the Avatar franchise.
Modern Elements monk is way more like how Avatar benders fought than old elements monk.
Good thing that live action movie sucked, LOL. This is so much easier to program into our VTT" (that they just scrapped after years of development.)
There's nothing about either elements monk that would be hard to program into their VTT. In fact, the original, with its powers that are almost all spells that need to exist anyway, was almost certainly going to be easier. (Assuming they were going to be programming in specific class powers at any level of detail. AFAIK, they weren't.)
As a flavor thing, I kind of prefer the Warrior of the Elements over the Way of the Four Elements.. The 2014 Way of Four Elements of the class is pretty strongly wedded to the Aristotelian four: Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, whereas the Warrior of the Elements needs less...finessing to work with other elemental schemes. I'm personally playing one whose elemental scheme is Wood, Earth, Fire, Water, Air, but it could be dropped on an elemental scheme of Fire, Wood, Water, Earth, Metal, one of Fire, Ice, Candy, Slime, or, if you wanted to go extreme with it, one with 92 elements.
I agree with jl8e's point, and would go a bit farther; Abilities you have and don't use are worse than Abilities you don't have, because they take up space of abilities you might use.
Can't really say I'm an experienced Monk player. I've been playing a Warrior of the Elements Monk for almost a year now, from Level 3 to Level 7 and had never played the class before. So far, I haven't had a combat where I didn't have Elemental Attunement Running, and almost always have enough Focus points to use my other features, and am contantly finding myself weighing odds and deciding which feature I'm going to use each Turn.
I was in a previous campaign with a 2014 Drunken Master Monk from Level 2 to elevel 6, and that player seemed to ration his Qi use very closely, or run dry fairly quickly, because at low levels, there just wasn't enough available to use many of the features.
I envision fighting a Warrior of the Elements Monk as something like this:
As you and your men rush out from the tower onto the wall, you see a man in a tailored suit, standing there. He tips his hat, nods, and then, poised like a speed skater, he slides across the rampart towards your men, faster than you believed possible. He kicks out a hissing, acidic tendril that grabs young Humbert by his head, muffling his agonized screams, and the acrid, slimy thing casually tosses him off the wall. He turns to Jensen, snaps his fingers and the shockwave crumples Jensen's chest, and slams the broken body back into Arigula, bowling the bearded guard over. You manage to bring up your crossbow and get a shot at the man, but he backflips and twists over it, guides the bolt into his spin, and there's a sudden blast of wind. And now you're blind in one eye, and the world is tilting over, and you're on the ground.
You see Arigula struggle to his feet and charge the man swinging his broadsword wildly. The man sidesteps the slice, stomps on the ground and a loose pebble bounces into the air. The man flicks his hand, almost negligently, and sends the pebble completely through Arigula's head.
The man straightens his suit, glances over at the bodies, and then jumps over the banister into the stairwell you rushed up less than a minute ago. The world fades to black...
Though it can be, admittedly, a little difficult to remember that level of flavor detail during a combat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
I have to agree. 24 Monk is much more dynamic than 14. I was playing Elements, which got the biggest upgrade. Now, instead of theoretically interesting powers I might use once per short rest, and most of which the group's casters do better, I have unique abilities that I can use all the time.
Also, I don't really get the "no weapon masteries" complaint. I don't use weapons anymore. Admittedly, that's partly because I'm elements, and my staff doesn't get the reach and other benefits.
The new Elements Monk is exactly what I wrote in the Title: Stronger but also more Boring. The push feature of the subclass is more streamlined from the 2014 Elements Monk, but you could effectively do similar things back then. So you can fly or swim without a spell slot now. Whoopdeedoo. So can, like, 8 other subclasses now. You have no real element bending powers. You cannot light stuff on fire. You cannot make big rocks pop out of the ground. You cannot trap enemies under a pile of rubble. You cannot create or modify any landscape feature whatsoever. How is this anything like a "bender of elements?" It isn't. You don't even get cantrips like Shape Water or Mold Earth.
Those powers you make so much of were largely illusory. They were so expensive to use, and came so late compared to the casters, that they were rarely worth using. I took the push-pull stuff because it was actually unique to the monk, and I still almost never did it, because it wasn't worth spending a third or more of my tank.
Now, I spend one point, and can run around pushing, pulling, grappling at range with mad abandon. And I do. I even occasionally use the mini-fireball.
Powers you actually use are better than powers that you don't. Even if they reduced the cost of the spells, they were still going to be inflexible and unimpressive compared to the casters. The powers elements have now are better for what the monk actually does. If they want a caster monk, they can make an eldritch knight equivalent, and it'll probably be ok.
It's just more generic Elemental damage oatmeal in the shape of a Monk. IOW, the devs said: " Let's give them a souped-up Sun Soul Monk who can fly and swim and just have the name "Element" in it. Mehh, who cares about the Avatar franchise.
Modern Elements monk is way more like how Avatar benders fought than old elements monk.
Good thing that live action movie sucked, LOL. This is so much easier to program into our VTT" (that they just scrapped after years of development.)
There's nothing about either elements monk that would be hard to program into their VTT. In fact, the original, with its powers that are almost all spells that need to exist anyway, was almost certainly going to be easier. (Assuming they were going to be programming in specific class powers at any level of detail. AFAIK, they weren't.)
@jl8e (how do you pronounce that?)
I think you're making a mistake in assuming that I miss the 2014 Elements Monk. I don't. It is a subclass that deserves to be dunked on for how poorly designed it is.
HOWEVER, just b/c the 2024 Elements Monk is mechanically superior to an extremely dysfunctional old subclass doesn't actually make it a good representation of elemental power-bending, which is a huge selling point of the "Monk with Elemental Powers" fantasy. You did not address any of the major points I brought up about 2024 Elements Monk. Let's summarize (and I'm adding a few) points:
* It's basically a palette swap with Sun Soul Monk with slightly better power scaling and flight/swim speed at higher levels. Instead of Radiant, you get a choice of "elemental" damage types.
* No ability to set stuff on fire.
* No ability to freeze water.
* No ability to change earthen terrain.
* No ability to knock anybody prone with water or air attacks.
* No ability to set opponents on fire.
* Nothing that makes you stronger based on the environment you are fighting in. Example: If you are on a volcano, your fire element attacks are exactly the same as they are almost anywhere else. Same thing if you are in tundra region; cold element attacks do exactly the same damage, no rider effects.
You are basically arguing that since the 2014 Elements Monk was the equivalent of being served a raw potato at a restaurant, but HEY at least the 2024 Monk is better than a raw potato, so we should be happy! (Why aren't you happy????) Seriously, if you get served plain oatmeal at a restaurant, would that make you happy? If you were starving or on a sugar/salt-free diet, maybe. Otherwise, wouldn't you want something actually, IDK, tasty??
You can see my commentary in the Tattooed Monks UA. Spell slot mechanics do not work well with Monks unless they are basically cantrips due to the major design differences of Monk vs. any of the spellcasters. One FP does not equal one level 1 spell slot.
BUT that doesn't not mean that Monks like the Element Monk should not have gotten something analogous to spellcasting effects using a different mechanic.
I don't think the monk lacks in variety of features, quite the contrary. I would say that boredom could stem more from the fact that there is little room for customization. The 2024 monk has many interesting features that can give a tactical advantage in battle.
The ability to grab, or shove, even if you have to sacrifice damage. Focus. Disengagement and Dash as a bonus action at no cost Uncanny Metabolism and Perfect Focus. which allow you to have more resources. Deflect Attacks and “Deflect Energy. which now includes every weapon and magic attack, both ranged and melee.
[SNIPPED for brevity]
I have to say one thing, even if it can be defined as a strategic choice to help the group, in my opinion having to choose between damage and an effect is frustrating, especially when other classes can combine effects. This also happens if one wants to use SotW ot PD and has to sacrifice “Bonus Unarmed Strike.” While other classes can use “Nick” to optimize their action, the monk has to make a choice. Frustrating but acceptable, considering that “Nick” is designed for weapons that do less damage.
Another frustrating thing is the fact that the monk is a class with few HP, but “Deflect Attacks” and “Deflect Energy” propose a riskier style of play in order to make the most of the reaction attack. I'm not saying it's bad, in fact, one could assume to make a dwarf monk with the “Tough” feat and have a wilder style. But if these features are never used, it could create a feeling of frustration.
Then, of course, it is also up to the DM to create situations so that the monk can make the most of his abilities in order to ensure greater enjoyment.
In conclusion, the monk is a class that offers many features with little room for customization. It is far from perfect but perfectly playable and interesting. Perhaps complicated due to the features that require a choice, but that is part of the game. In some cases, it may be frustrating due to the many unused features, but this is a problem that can be solved by a good DM who offers players the opportunity to make the most of each player's different characteristics by offering customized challenges. If these opportunities do not arise or are not seized, it is a situation that needs to be resolved within the gaming group.
Note that Deflect Energy was taken from the Astral Self Monk, which is now almost useless as subclass since it's main selling points - not having to get w/in 5 feet of opponent due to the cost of spending Ki to Disengage and Elemental damage deflection at level 11 have been rendered largely moot by the redesign of the base Monk class.
Okay, so you agree that base class Monk's supposedly superior control abilities via push and grapple mechanics updates should not have to force the Monk to sacrifice damage to do so.
I agree with most of what you stated. In fact, your last paragraph reminds me of another point: Monks in 2024 aren't really much better than Monks in 2014 at benefitting from a multi-class. Yes, you get to replenish FP between rests. And you are now slightly more durable to Deflecting, but the class design makes it difficult to customize: It is A) multi-attribute dependent; B) it's FP resource is not used by ANY other class; C) scaling of powers is heavily dependent on having most of your levels in Monk; D) you are locked out of many of the better feats due to class restrictions: no Polearm Master, no Great Weapon Master, no Heavy Armor Master, and Sharpshooter is rarely going to be a strong pick due to how melee-oriented base Monks are. And even if there were some better feats for Monks (arguably ones like Tavern Brawler or Swift), you would be hard-pressed to pick them up without sacrificing your AC or your Stunning Strike capability because you only get the standard ASI progression and most campaigns end before level 12.
I think you're making a mistake in assuming that I miss the 2014 Elements Monk. I don't. It is a subclass that deserves to be dunked on for how poorly designed it is.
HOWEVER, just b/c the 2024 Elements Monk is mechanically superior to an extremely dysfunctional old subclass doesn't actually make it a good representation of elemental power-bending, which is a huge selling point of the "Monk with Elemental Powers" fantasy. You did not address any of the major points I brought up about 2024 Elements Monk. Let's summarize (and I'm adding a few) points:
* It's basically a palette swap with Sun Soul Monk with slightly better power scaling and flight/swim speed at higher levels. Instead of Radiant, you get a choice of "elemental" damage types.
Not sure why this is bad. Or good. Honestly, sun soul looks kind of meh, power-wise. It's not such a unique and flavorful subclass that I see any reason to care if elements eats its schtick.
* No ability to set stuff on fire.
Elementalism.
* No ability to freeze water.
* No ability to change earthen terrain.
Elementalism.
* No ability to knock anybody prone with water or air attacks.
True. Or with any other attacks, such as earth, or kicking people. They gave that trick to open hand.
* No ability to set opponents on fire.
The fact that elemental attacks don't usually have rider effects is an extremely consistent part of D&D.
* Nothing that makes you stronger based on the environment you are fighting in. Example: If you are on a volcano, your fire element attacks are exactly the same as they are almost anywhere else. Same thing if you are in tundra region; cold element attacks do exactly the same damage, no rider effects.
You are basically arguing that since the 2014 Elements Monk was the equivalent of being served a raw potato at a restaurant, but HEY at least the 2024 Monk is better than a raw potato, so we should be happy! (Why aren't you happy????) Seriously, if you get served plain oatmeal at a restaurant, would that make you happy? If you were starving or on a sugar/salt-free diet, maybe. Otherwise, wouldn't you want something actually, IDK, tasty??
Elements monk is, as written, fun. And that is what I want. I don't find it boring in the slightest.
Does it let you do all the cool things you'd want in an Avatar game? No, and it cannot; that level of flexibility is out of scope for a melee class -- it'd throw off the balance something fierce if you tried. (Or it'd be so neutered as to be pointless.)
Does it get you close to the fantasy of Avatar-style combat? Well, I think so, especially when you combine it with narrating base monk features appropriately. (It wasn't really what I was going for, anyway.) But if you want the full Avatar experience, you'll need the Avatar RPG, which exists.
I think you're making a mistake in assuming that I miss the 2014 Elements Monk. I don't. It is a subclass that deserves to be dunked on for how poorly designed it is.
HOWEVER, just b/c the 2024 Elements Monk is mechanically superior to an extremely dysfunctional old subclass doesn't actually make it a good representation of elemental power-bending, which is a huge selling point of the "Monk with Elemental Powers" fantasy. You did not address any of the major points I brought up about 2024 Elements Monk. Let's summarize (and I'm adding a few) points:
* It's basically a palette swap with Sun Soul Monk with slightly better power scaling and flight/swim speed at higher levels. Instead of Radiant, you get a choice of "elemental" damage types.
Not sure why this is bad. Or good. Honestly, sun soul looks kind of meh, power-wise. It's not such a unique and flavorful subclass that I see any reason to care if elements eats its schtick.
* No ability to set stuff on fire.
Elementalism.
* No ability to freeze water.
* No ability to change earthen terrain.
Elementalism.
[SNIPPED for brevity]
* Nothing that makes you stronger based on the environment you are fighting in. Example: If you are on a volcano, your fire element attacks are exactly the same as they are almost anywhere else. Same thing if you are in tundra region; cold element attacks do exactly the same damage, no rider effects.
You are basically arguing that since the 2014 Elements Monk was the equivalent of being served a raw potato at a restaurant, but HEY at least the 2024 Monk is better than a raw potato, so we should be happy! (Why aren't you happy????) Seriously, if you get served plain oatmeal at a restaurant, would that make you happy? If you were starving or on a sugar/salt-free diet, maybe. Otherwise, wouldn't you want something actually, IDK, tasty??
Elements monk is, as written, fun. And that is what I want. I don't find it boring in the slightest.
Does it let you do all the cool things you'd want in an Avatar game? No, and it cannot; that level of flexibility is out of scope for a melee class -- it'd throw off the balance something fierce if you tried. (Or it'd be so neutered as to be pointless.)
Does it get you close to the fantasy of Avatar-style combat? Well, I think so, especially when you combine it with narrating base monk features appropriately. (It wasn't really what I was going for, anyway.) But if you want the full Avatar experience, you'll need the Avatar RPG, which exists.
You clearly have not actually READ the Elementalism cantrip. I linked it for your convenience. It cannot set things on fire that are not already prepared to be set on fire. Or freeze water that you can walk on. Or do anything meaningful for combat in any way shape or form.
My point about the Sun Soul was that it's a poor subclass at best. The 2024 Elements Monk is basically more functional Sun Soul Monk, but just as the Sun Soul Monk lacked any actual element-bending powers, same thing goes for the Elements Monk in 2024.
So you basically agree that we should be happy with bland, boring Oatmeal for a subclass that had potential to be actually interesting and flavorful. If that's fine with you, well, I definitely would never hire you to cook at a restaurant. This subclass is an exercise in by-the-numbers modular design, with no passion, no flavor, and it's main selling point is that it's slightly better than the Sun Soul Monk, which it basically is. YAWWWWN.
The biggest improvements since release of the 2024 PHB is that Monks are now signifcantly more durable and don't have to spend quite as much
KiF.P. to do basic stuff that the Rogue has been able to do since the first 5E PHB was release 10 years ago. The other major change is that their action economy is bit smoother what with the change to language around the Attack action and Flurry of Blows not having to rely on doing the Attack action first. Positive direction in several ways.Still just as Multi-Attri-Dependent as before.
A slightly bigger choice of feats.
Stunning feels ... less like actual stunning. Workable, less OP. Fine.
No weapon masteries for Monk. What did I say about Monks not Getting Nice Things? Well, that's true in this case. I guess the devs thought that keeping track of your F.P. is the best part of playing a Monk, cause they sure drove that point home by making sure Monks could not have any free control abilies. No sirreeeeee, Bobski.
No more communicating with the all the fishies and furries, etc. at high level. While some people said that was purely a ribbon feature, I thought it was cool (if a bit weird) for a base class feature.
But.... it seems that the devs put so much into the base class update that the subclasses seem, ummmm, really boring.
Like, Open Hand 2024 is almost exactly the same as previous Open Hand but better basic mobility, which is fine but uninspiring.
Shadow Monk 2024 is a sort of upgrade. Seeing thru your own Darkness spell w/out a feat or multiclassing is solid. Everything else is ... okay. This was already one of the most efficient users of D.P. of the official Monks, so the change of short-term invisibility at 11th level by making it into a 17th level ability that lasts longer with a bit of offense added for free costing 3 P.S. points looks like an upgrade but really doesn't feel celebration-worthy since almost nobody plays to level 17 anyway.
War of Mercy 2024. A reprint of the Tasha's version, basically. No comment on this one.
War of the Elements is soooo boring. Elemental damage boosts here, resistances there. Some push/pull abilities are useful. Okay, so more playable than the Way of the Four Elements, which was just badly designed in so many ways. Gawd. But this.... this is... just dull. Efficient but dull, like a lot marriages after 4 years. No ability to set things on fire, no creating stony cover for your Rogue or spellcaster friends, no ability to change terrain or feel like an actual Bender of the Elements. I guess flight is nice, but there are sooooo many flight options since Tasha's came out that their 11th level feature is just another "Oh, you too?" instead of "OMG! I totes want to try that too!!" IOW, "Where's the passion here, dahling?" Not here, that's for sure. Four out of Five Snoozies.
Fresh off of playing my new 2024 Monk last night, and it was not boring at all for me. Curious: do you find martials boring in general? I'd say Monks are generally less boring of the martials, no?
1. Ability to engage: Between the mobility, multiple attack options, and the better action economy, I was able to open with a dash as a BA (for free now) to cover the gap to get an attack off. I also could have used a ranged weapon, and dodged as a BA to prepare for any ranged attacks. Also their improved damage dice rewards getting into melee a bit more, which relates to:
2. Deflect Attacks: a huge improvement on 2014's Deflect Missiles, which only did ranged weapons. Now it works on any B/P/S damage, reducing it by d10 + Dex mod + Monk lvl. At level 3, that is already 7-16 damage reduction once per turn. That is huge early on, really mitigating their squishiness and thus freeing you up to be bolder to get into melee, where Monks need to be to shine.
3. Focus Points freer: With fewer things costing Focus Points, that frees up the Monk to use them more often and use their free abilities of course. That is fun! Also recovering all FPs with Uncanny Metabolism absolutely freed me up to use them when I needed, knowing I'd be able to get them back for the next battle. Fun.
4. Grappling: I hear you on weapon masteries, but I think Grappling is Monk's de facto mastery now, especially with the new & improved Grappler feat, which allows you to Grapple freely as part of an unarmed attack and gives you Advantage on your attacks against them. Sure that costs a feat, but the 2024 version now also boosts your DEX or STR. So it's a natural first feat for Monks. Who also can now use their DEX to Grapple (for the DC).
That all is pretty fun to me, and that's just the base class at early levels. You don't seem to care for the new subclasses, which is fine. I'm not super familiar with them, but have seen mostly positive reviews. My subclass is Way of Mercy, which still absolutely slaps.
4. Damage Boost: Mercy's Hand of Harm is like a mini-smite for the Monk: extra Martial Arts die + WIS dmg. At level 3, that's d6 + 3. Finished off a tough guy, and still confident I'll have more FPs for next combat thanks to aforementioned Uncanny Metabolism.
5. Healing: Mercy's Hand of Healing allows me to do more than just damage and sprint around. Keeping allies up is especially fun, cuz teamwork is fun! This replaces one attack in your Flurry of Blows, so at level 3, you can heal someone for d6 + 3 and still get two attacks off, for 1 FP. That's pretty good. And the Monk's mobility means they can more easily get to allies that need it.
Battlefield dynamism and greater freedom to use class features so far has this feeling pretty fun. At level 3. When I look forward to Monk's class features and Mercy's subclass features, they all look to build on what I want to do as a Mercy Monk: stun & auto-poison enemies, heal allies' conditions, dragging allies & foes across the battlefield, stronger resiliency to stay in the game, etc. Little waste in my eyes.
I have to agree. 24 Monk is much more dynamic than 14. I was playing Elements, which got the biggest upgrade. Now, instead of theoretically interesting powers I might use once per short rest, and most of which the group's casters do better, I have unique abilities that I can use all the time.
Also, I don't really get the "no weapon masteries" complaint. I don't use weapons anymore. Admittedly, that's partly because I'm elements, and my staff doesn't get the reach and other benefits.
I also think there has been a significant improvement compared to the 2014 monk. I also think that the monk doesn't need weapon mastery, as in many cases the monk has abilities that work better with unarmed attacks than armed ones.
What's missing, however, is improving the rules of unarmed combat and making them as interesting as weapon mastery. I agree that the monk has advantages in grappling, but not everyone likes grappling strategy and not everyone likes to push as some monk subclasses do.
It would be nice if unarmed combat also had the option to choose its style. When you see other warrior classes that have a choice between weapons and weapon techniques, in comparison, the monk can only push because it is a subclass ability, and if it wants to do something different, it has to sacrifice damage in order to push 5 feet, or grab, or knock down, which is a bit envy-inducing.
The monk lacks freedom of customization. The semi-magical classes have spells, the fighter has the option of different feats, fighting styles, and weapon mastery, and the rogue and barbarian have weapon mastery.
Yeah I also don't think I miss Weapon Mastery on a Monk, due to the combo of grapple/push easily available via subclasses/feats, plus debuffs like Stunning Strike, Mercy Monk’s auto-poison, etc.
To me, it makes sense Thematically & structurally for more weapon-oriented classes like Fighters to get Weapon Masteries. Some kind of masteries for unarmed attacks would certainly be cool, though I think there is enough equivalence already.
Re: customization, Monks certainly have less because they seem to put more features of weight into the class and subclasses themselves. So the customization moment, per se, is more picking Monk and picking the subclass in the first place.
Fighter is kind of designed to be most customizable from the extra feats. But also being less MAD. Monks are certainly pretty restricted on feats since they need so much ASI love. That changes a bi if you roll for stats though.
Look, if Monks could do stuff like push 5 feet, knock prone, slow the enemy, etc. without having to be pidgeon-holed into one or two specific subclasses while ALSO doing unarmed strike damage without spending FocusP, then they would not need Weapon Masteries. The fact that doing cool stuff with your hands/feet other than punching/kicking is locked behind boring, flavorless, dull as a brick wall subclasses like the Open Hand and the Elements Monk means that few other Monks from here on out are likely to get low-cost or no-cost control abilities without eating into their direct DPR. Like I said from the outset, 2024 Monks are stronger but more boring. So the devs satisfied people like Treantmonk or whatever YTuber for pure DPR reasons, but the flavor of the class and subclasses has not actually improved. The variety of stuff you can do as a Monk has not improved.
I disagree. To me, having to make a choice between doing damage or using a control ability is what makes them interesting. Tactical round-to-round choices are interesting. Being able to damage and control with every attack means makes it the clearly superior option, meaning there is no choice. You'd do the same thing with every attack, and that's what would make it boring. And monks still have lots of things they do that other classes can't do.
Also, it's kind of strange that you're criticizing others for saying they wanted improved dpr, and then basically saying you want improved dpr (since that's what damaging when you use a control option is). And, if you want that playstyle, you can always take the grappler feat. It's a very good choice for a monk.
No, my point is that IF Monk base DPR is based on # of attacks as opposed to feats granting boosts to damage, it makes sense that when they push or knock prone, etc., they should not be sacrificing damage of that unarmed strike entirely to do so. The bigger damage dice is less useful, actually, than being able to control your opponents' actions b/c Monks have never been a crit fisher-centric class.
And somehow, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian and Rogue get to do Damage + control effect WITHOUT spending resources and WITH damage. It makes no sense that someone who is literally trained specifically using their hands or limbs to fight is more limited in doing so than someone using an implement when Hands are far more flexible in their variety of motion than any dagger, sword, or warhammer. Like I said earlier, the word "manipulate" comes from the Latin word for hand, which is "manus". As such the physical manipulation of one's opponent should be EASIER not HARDER when you are literally fighting with your hands (not covered in gloves).
The new Elements Monk is exactly what I wrote in the Title: Stronger but also more Boring. The push feature of the subclass is more streamlined from the 2014 Elements Monk, but you could effectively do similar things back then. So you can fly or swim without a spell slot now. Whoopdeedoo. So can, like, 8 other subclasses now. You have no real element bending powers. You cannot light stuff on fire. You cannot make big rocks pop out of the ground. You cannot trap enemies under a pile of rubble. You cannot create or modify any landscape feature whatsoever. How is this anything like a "bender of elements?" It isn't. You don't even get cantrips like Shape Water or Mold Earth.
It's just more generic Elemental damage oatmeal in the shape of a Monk. IOW, the devs said: " Let's give them a souped-up Sun Soul Monk who can fly and swim and just have the name "Element" in it. Mehh, who cares about the Avatar franchise. Good thing that live action movie sucked, LOL. This is so much easier to program into our VTT" (that they just scrapped after years of development.)
I don't think the monk lacks in variety of features, quite the contrary. I would say that boredom could stem more from the fact that there is little room for customization. The 2024 monk has many interesting features that can give a tactical advantage in battle.
The ability to grab, or shove, even if you have to sacrifice damage.
Focus. Disengagement and Dash as a bonus action at no cost
Uncanny Metabolism and Perfect Focus. which allow you to have more resources.
Deflect Attacks and “Deflect Energy. which now includes every weapon and magic attack, both ranged and melee.
Stunning Strike. reduced but effective.
Heightened Focus - SotW. allows you to carry an ally during your movement, whether to enter or exit melee.
Unfortunately, these are the features and there is no choice of maneuvers. I have always found it fun to look for combinations of spells, feats, class abilities, and subclasses. With the monk, there is little to do except choose skills, the origin feat, race, and the subclass (Fetas perhaps, but complicated). Personally, I would love it if the monk class were more like the battle master, where one can choose combat techniques instead of using the basic rules of unarmed combat (which all classes can use). But these are just personal preferences.
I have to say one thing, even if it can be defined as a strategic choice to help the group, in my opinion having to choose between damage and an effect is frustrating, especially when other classes can combine effects. This also happens if one wants to use SotW ot PD and has to sacrifice “Bonus Unarmed Strike.” While other classes can use “Nick” to optimize their action, the monk has to make a choice. Frustrating but acceptable, considering that “Nick” is designed for weapons that do less damage.
Another frustrating thing is the fact that the monk is a class with few HP, but “Deflect Attacks” and “Deflect Energy” propose a riskier style of play in order to make the most of the reaction attack. I'm not saying it's bad, in fact, one could assume to make a dwarf monk with the “Tough” feat and have a wilder style. But if these features are never used, it could create a feeling of frustration.
Then, of course, it is also up to the DM to create situations so that the monk can make the most of his abilities in order to ensure greater enjoyment.
Those powers you make so much of were largely illusory. They were so expensive to use, and came so late compared to the casters, that they were rarely worth using. I took the push-pull stuff because it was actually unique to the monk, and I still almost never did it, because it wasn't worth spending a third or more of my tank.
Now, I spend one point, and can run around pushing, pulling, grappling at range with mad abandon. And I do. I even occasionally use the mini-fireball.
Powers you actually use are better than powers that you don't. Even if they reduced the cost of the spells, they were still going to be inflexible and unimpressive compared to the casters. The powers elements have now are better for what the monk actually does. If they want a caster monk, they can make an eldritch knight equivalent, and it'll probably be ok.
Modern Elements monk is way more like how Avatar benders fought than old elements monk.
There's nothing about either elements monk that would be hard to program into their VTT. In fact, the original, with its powers that are almost all spells that need to exist anyway, was almost certainly going to be easier. (Assuming they were going to be programming in specific class powers at any level of detail. AFAIK, they weren't.)
As a flavor thing, I kind of prefer the Warrior of the Elements over the Way of the Four Elements.. The 2014 Way of Four Elements of the class is pretty strongly wedded to the Aristotelian four: Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, whereas the Warrior of the Elements needs less...finessing to work with other elemental schemes. I'm personally playing one whose elemental scheme is Wood, Earth, Fire, Water, Air, but it could be dropped on an elemental scheme of Fire, Wood, Water, Earth, Metal, one of Fire, Ice, Candy, Slime, or, if you wanted to go extreme with it, one with 92 elements.
I agree with jl8e's point, and would go a bit farther; Abilities you have and don't use are worse than Abilities you don't have, because they take up space of abilities you might use.
Can't really say I'm an experienced Monk player. I've been playing a Warrior of the Elements Monk for almost a year now, from Level 3 to Level 7 and had never played the class before. So far, I haven't had a combat where I didn't have Elemental Attunement Running, and almost always have enough Focus points to use my other features, and am contantly finding myself weighing odds and deciding which feature I'm going to use each Turn.
I was in a previous campaign with a 2014 Drunken Master Monk from Level 2 to elevel 6, and that player seemed to ration his Qi use very closely, or run dry fairly quickly, because at low levels, there just wasn't enough available to use many of the features.
I envision fighting a Warrior of the Elements Monk as something like this:
Though it can be, admittedly, a little difficult to remember that level of flavor detail during a combat.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
@jl8e (how do you pronounce that?)
I think you're making a mistake in assuming that I miss the 2014 Elements Monk. I don't. It is a subclass that deserves to be dunked on for how poorly designed it is.
HOWEVER, just b/c the 2024 Elements Monk is mechanically superior to an extremely dysfunctional old subclass doesn't actually make it a good representation of elemental power-bending, which is a huge selling point of the "Monk with Elemental Powers" fantasy. You did not address any of the major points I brought up about 2024 Elements Monk. Let's summarize (and I'm adding a few) points:
* It's basically a palette swap with Sun Soul Monk with slightly better power scaling and flight/swim speed at higher levels. Instead of Radiant, you get a choice of "elemental" damage types.
* No ability to set stuff on fire.
* No ability to freeze water.
* No ability to change earthen terrain.
* No ability to knock anybody prone with water or air attacks.
* No ability to set opponents on fire.
* Nothing that makes you stronger based on the environment you are fighting in. Example: If you are on a volcano, your fire element attacks are exactly the same as they are almost anywhere else. Same thing if you are in tundra region; cold element attacks do exactly the same damage, no rider effects.
You are basically arguing that since the 2014 Elements Monk was the equivalent of being served a raw potato at a restaurant, but HEY at least the 2024 Monk is better than a raw potato, so we should be happy! (Why aren't you happy????) Seriously, if you get served plain oatmeal at a restaurant, would that make you happy? If you were starving or on a sugar/salt-free diet, maybe. Otherwise, wouldn't you want something actually, IDK, tasty??
You can see my commentary in the Tattooed Monks UA. Spell slot mechanics do not work well with Monks unless they are basically cantrips due to the major design differences of Monk vs. any of the spellcasters. One FP does not equal one level 1 spell slot.
BUT that doesn't not mean that Monks like the Element Monk should not have gotten something analogous to spellcasting effects using a different mechanic.
Note that Deflect Energy was taken from the Astral Self Monk, which is now almost useless as subclass since it's main selling points - not having to get w/in 5 feet of opponent due to the cost of spending Ki to Disengage and Elemental damage deflection at level 11 have been rendered largely moot by the redesign of the base Monk class.
Okay, so you agree that base class Monk's supposedly superior control abilities via push and grapple mechanics updates should not have to force the Monk to sacrifice damage to do so.
I agree with most of what you stated. In fact, your last paragraph reminds me of another point: Monks in 2024 aren't really much better than Monks in 2014 at benefitting from a multi-class. Yes, you get to replenish FP between rests. And you are now slightly more durable to Deflecting, but the class design makes it difficult to customize: It is A) multi-attribute dependent; B) it's FP resource is not used by ANY other class; C) scaling of powers is heavily dependent on having most of your levels in Monk; D) you are locked out of many of the better feats due to class restrictions: no Polearm Master, no Great Weapon Master, no Heavy Armor Master, and Sharpshooter is rarely going to be a strong pick due to how melee-oriented base Monks are. And even if there were some better feats for Monks (arguably ones like Tavern Brawler or Swift), you would be hard-pressed to pick them up without sacrificing your AC or your Stunning Strike capability because you only get the standard ASI progression and most campaigns end before level 12.
Like it's spelled.
Not sure why this is bad. Or good. Honestly, sun soul looks kind of meh, power-wise. It's not such a unique and flavorful subclass that I see any reason to care if elements eats its schtick.
Elementalism.
Elementalism.
True. Or with any other attacks, such as earth, or kicking people. They gave that trick to open hand.
The fact that elemental attacks don't usually have rider effects is an extremely consistent part of D&D.
Elements monk is, as written, fun. And that is what I want. I don't find it boring in the slightest.
Does it let you do all the cool things you'd want in an Avatar game? No, and it cannot; that level of flexibility is out of scope for a melee class -- it'd throw off the balance something fierce if you tried. (Or it'd be so neutered as to be pointless.)
Does it get you close to the fantasy of Avatar-style combat? Well, I think so, especially when you combine it with narrating base monk features appropriately. (It wasn't really what I was going for, anyway.) But if you want the full Avatar experience, you'll need the Avatar RPG, which exists.
You clearly have not actually READ the Elementalism cantrip. I linked it for your convenience. It cannot set things on fire that are not already prepared to be set on fire. Or freeze water that you can walk on. Or do anything meaningful for combat in any way shape or form.
My point about the Sun Soul was that it's a poor subclass at best. The 2024 Elements Monk is basically more functional Sun Soul Monk, but just as the Sun Soul Monk lacked any actual element-bending powers, same thing goes for the Elements Monk in 2024.
So you basically agree that we should be happy with bland, boring Oatmeal for a subclass that had potential to be actually interesting and flavorful. If that's fine with you, well, I definitely would never hire you to cook at a restaurant. This subclass is an exercise in by-the-numbers modular design, with no passion, no flavor, and it's main selling point is that it's slightly better than the Sun Soul Monk, which it basically is. YAWWWWN.