I'm new to D&D Beyond. Anyway, every time I open the PHB to the Monk section I sigh because I see what a missed opportunity the 4 Elements Monk turned out to be. High Ki cost abilites, little versatility, and generally does not match the action economy of what monks do best: move fast and break things (esp spellcasters).
I know it's been a while since people have thought about this sub-class. Are people still interested in it? I'm thinking it would need to be rebuilt from the bottom up and occupy a different party niche than either the Sun Soul or the Open Hand monks.
I think most people blow the Ki point cost out of proportion. If you compare the amount of spellcasting a Way of the Four Elements can put out with 2 short rests, it's somewhere between 1/3 casters and 1/2 casters, which is pretty good for a class that doesn't have any spellcasting built in; better than Eldritch Knights or Arcane Tricksters.
In my opinion the math behind the 4 elements monk is fine; the real problems are:
Too few Elemental Disciplines to choose from. The subclass was really hurt by not being able to benefit from the new spells in Elemental Evil Player's Companion. There aren't even any starting options for earth-based disciplines.
Too few disciplines known. Elemental Attunement is essentially a utility cantrip, so you only start with 1 real "spell". And because you're so starved for options, there's a lot of incentive to swap Elemental Attunement out at the earliest opportunity.
Only being able to learn and swap disciplines at 6th, 11th and 17th level is too restrictive. If you look at the ki point limits and level requirements for elemental spells, it's clear the subclass is based on the spell progression of 1/2 casters like Paladins and Rangers. However, levels 6/11/17 don't line up cleanly with the levels at which 1/2 casters unlock new spells, so your access to higher level spells is delayed unnecessarily. The worst offender is 4th level spells, which should be unlocked at 13th level, but have to wait until 17th.
It's not too hard to fix these things; let Elemental Attunement not count against your disciplines, bump up the number of disciplines to match a Ranger's Spells Known, lower the level requirements of each spell to match a Ranger's spell slot progression, and let players swap out 1 discipline on every level up. Then throw in some Elemental Evil Player's Companion spells to increase the pool of options.
To put that in concrete terms:
Elemental Attunement + 3 disciplines at 3rd level
+1 discipline at 6th (4 total)
+3 disciplines at 11th (7 total)
+3 disciplines at 17th (10 total)
Revised level requirements:
5th level
Clench of the North Wind
Gong of the Summit
9th level
Flames of the Phoenix
Mist Stance
Ride the Wind
13th level
Eternal Mountain Defense
River of Hungry Flame
Additional options from Elemental Evil Player's Companion/Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
No level requirement (2 ki points)
Absorb Elements (cold, fire, or thunder damage only)
I see where you're coming from in terms of Elemental Attunement and swapping stuff. I also agree that the EEPC spell options open up a lot for any elemental damage class, which should include this sub-class.
I don't know that I quite agree with you regarding Ki cost. 6 Ki points to case Wall of Fire is pretty hefty. And Water Whip costing 2 Ki when you can't even use it as a bonus action is ridiculous. The 4 Elements Monk is still primarily a monk and not a spellcaster (so maybe not swapping abilities at Every level). Unlike Eldritch Knights and Paladins, who have useful abilities that don't key off of spell slots, almost everything useful about a Monk depends on Ki. Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, stunning fist. EKs have cantrips when they run out of spells and steadily high AC if they want it. Paladins have auras and Lay on Hands and Channel Divinity. All bypassing their spell slots. Monks might have high AC, but they are flimsy compared to most other melee classes and more MAD than most (Ranger being main exception). At high levels, having a few Ki points on standby is important to them.
I also don't know about transferring straight up that many spells over to pure only Monks. Most Wiz and Druid spells were designed for background casters in mind. The kind who Really don't want to lose concentration. So I would think that some serious re-design is in order. And why not do so when it's clear that the sub-class in general is such garbage?
Only being able to learn and swap disciplines at 6th, 11th and 17th level is too restrictive. If you look at the ki point limits and level requirements for elemental spells, it's clear the subclass is based on the spell progression of 1/2 casters like Paladins and Rangers. However, levels 6/11/17 don't line up cleanly with the levels at which 1/2 casters unlock new spells, so your access to higher level spells is delayed unnecessarily. The worst offender is 4th level spells, which should be unlocked at 13th level, but have to wait until 17th.
It's not too hard to fix these things; let Elemental Attunement not count against your disciplines, bump up the number of disciplines to match a Ranger's Spells Known, lower the level requirements of each spell to match a Ranger's spell slot progression, and let players swap out 1 discipline on every level up. Then throw in some Elemental Evil Player's Companion spells to increase the pool of options.
To put that in concrete terms:
Elemental Attunement + 3 disciplines at 3rd level
+1 discipline at 6th (4 total)
+3 disciplines at 11th (7 total)
+3 disciplines at 17th (10 total)
I'm liking this approach.
I get the need to try to redo the Four Elements about once a month. I love the flavor so much, but I hadn't found anything I much liked in the way of fixes. I really like the bladesinger mechanic, but couldn't work anything out that was the right mix of power.
But this is pretty cool.
Curious what you guys thought of Hoeck's houserules:
If your Dungeon Master is willing to use house rules, consider using the following house rules to buff the Way of the Four Elements subclass:
Reduce the ki cost of all Elemental Disciplines by 2 (to a minimum of 1). This cost reduction is applied after you spend additional ki to raise the spell’s level. For example, the Fist of Four Thunders discipline lets you cast thunderwave for 2 ki. This cost is reduced to 1. Casting the spell at 2nd level increases the ki cost to 3, but it still only costs 1 ki point after the cost reduction of 2 points.
At 3rd level, you learn the Elemental Attunement discipline as normal, and two other disciplines of your choice (instead of just one).
You learn two new disciplines at 6th, 11th, and 17th level (instead of just one), and can replace any discipline you know with another one that you meet the level requirements to learn when you gain a level in this class.
You can also learn two cantrips of your choice from the following list: acid splash, fire bolt, mold earth, produce flame, ray of frost, shocking grasp. When you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of these cantrips with another instead of replacing an elemental discipline with another. (If you have other sources, such as Xanathar’s Guide to Everything or Elemental Evil Player’s Companion, you can choose other cantrips from those sources that deal acid, cold, fire, or lightning damage, or have an otherwise elemental theme, with your DM’s permission.)
***
My first read made me think it would be a bit too powerful, but it's hard to tell. Anyone done the math to see how over/under-done this is?
I love that it totally divorces the spell power from ki (making it like a 1/3 caster like an eldritch knight or arcane trickster). They also wrote four first-level spells that are bonus-action casts that incorporate water whip, fangs of the fire snake and fist of unbroken air (plus an earth-stylized one) disciplines. So, now you cast one of those and get the ability for a minute.
At first blush, might be worth making the effect of each of those bonus-action spells apply to only one attack per turn... and then I noticed that they each require concentration. Then it seemed balanced, cuz... monks gonna be hit. A lot. (obviously, they'll do their darndest not to. But it's gonna happen often anyway.)
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Hi Everyone!
I'm new to D&D Beyond. Anyway, every time I open the PHB to the Monk section I sigh because I see what a missed opportunity the 4 Elements Monk turned out to be. High Ki cost abilites, little versatility, and generally does not match the action economy of what monks do best: move fast and break things (esp spellcasters).
I know it's been a while since people have thought about this sub-class. Are people still interested in it? I'm thinking it would need to be rebuilt from the bottom up and occupy a different party niche than either the Sun Soul or the Open Hand monks.
Let's revive this discussion. Thank you.
I think most people blow the Ki point cost out of proportion. If you compare the amount of spellcasting a Way of the Four Elements can put out with 2 short rests, it's somewhere between 1/3 casters and 1/2 casters, which is pretty good for a class that doesn't have any spellcasting built in; better than Eldritch Knights or Arcane Tricksters.
In my opinion the math behind the 4 elements monk is fine; the real problems are:
It's not too hard to fix these things; let Elemental Attunement not count against your disciplines, bump up the number of disciplines to match a Ranger's Spells Known, lower the level requirements of each spell to match a Ranger's spell slot progression, and let players swap out 1 discipline on every level up. Then throw in some Elemental Evil Player's Companion spells to increase the pool of options.
To put that in concrete terms:
Revised level requirements:
5th level
9th level
13th level
Additional options from Elemental Evil Player's Companion/Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
No level requirement (2 ki points)
5th level required (3 ki points)
9th level required (4 ki points)
13th level required (5 ki points)
17th level required (6 ki points)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I see where you're coming from in terms of Elemental Attunement and swapping stuff. I also agree that the EEPC spell options open up a lot for any elemental damage class, which should include this sub-class.
I don't know that I quite agree with you regarding Ki cost. 6 Ki points to case Wall of Fire is pretty hefty. And Water Whip costing 2 Ki when you can't even use it as a bonus action is ridiculous. The 4 Elements Monk is still primarily a monk and not a spellcaster (so maybe not swapping abilities at Every level). Unlike Eldritch Knights and Paladins, who have useful abilities that don't key off of spell slots, almost everything useful about a Monk depends on Ki. Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, stunning fist. EKs have cantrips when they run out of spells and steadily high AC if they want it. Paladins have auras and Lay on Hands and Channel Divinity. All bypassing their spell slots. Monks might have high AC, but they are flimsy compared to most other melee classes and more MAD than most (Ranger being main exception). At high levels, having a few Ki points on standby is important to them.
I also don't know about transferring straight up that many spells over to pure only Monks. Most Wiz and Druid spells were designed for background casters in mind. The kind who Really don't want to lose concentration. So I would think that some serious re-design is in order. And why not do so when it's clear that the sub-class in general is such garbage?
Reminded me of this video https://youtu.be/vGjxc-so3LA
I'm liking this approach.
I get the need to try to redo the Four Elements about once a month. I love the flavor so much, but I hadn't found anything I much liked in the way of fixes. I really like the bladesinger mechanic, but couldn't work anything out that was the right mix of power.
But this is pretty cool.
Curious what you guys thought of Hoeck's houserules:
If your Dungeon Master is willing to use house rules, consider using the following house rules to buff the Way of the Four Elements subclass:
***
My first read made me think it would be a bit too powerful, but it's hard to tell. Anyone done the math to see how over/under-done this is?
Just found this as well, and I think it's brilliant:
https://sterlingvermin.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/way-of-the-four-elements-revisited.pdf
I love that it totally divorces the spell power from ki (making it like a 1/3 caster like an eldritch knight or arcane trickster). They also wrote four first-level spells that are bonus-action casts that incorporate water whip, fangs of the fire snake and fist of unbroken air (plus an earth-stylized one) disciplines. So, now you cast one of those and get the ability for a minute.
At first blush, might be worth making the effect of each of those bonus-action spells apply to only one attack per turn... and then I noticed that they each require concentration. Then it seemed balanced, cuz... monks gonna be hit. A lot. (obviously, they'll do their darndest not to. But it's gonna happen often anyway.)