PS: I ve also made an alternative build with the modified standard array home brewed rule by the Dungeon Dudes Youtube channel (which is 17; 15; 13; 12; 10; 8). This HB is basically an alt version of the standard array, the reasons behind this numbers are explained in their video "Five simple House Rules for character creation". Basically this system let players create non standard charachters without rolling dice and without falling too much behind if compared with the classic minmaxing builds. In my opinion it's a well balanced home brewed rule. Nevertheless It's a house rule so I will use it only if the DM will allow it in our game. Dnd Dudes modified standard array. ST17, DX12, CO15, IN8, WI13, C10; Race St Human ST18, DX13, CO16, IN9, WI14, CA11. Same leveling progression as above. First ASI at 5th Lv: Resilient (STR18, DX14 (Resilient), CO16, WI14, IN9 CA11 ; second ASI Mobile; third ASI STR+2 (ST20, DX14 (Resilient), CO16, WI14, IN9 CA11) or third ASI CO+2 (ST18, DX14 (Resilient), CO18, WI14, IN9 CA10) for a better AC and HP or Defensive duelist feat.
So with the new Dragon Monk UA out, my mind immediately went to a Dragonborn Dragon Monk with the Dragon Fear feat. With the monk breath of the dragon you can still breath and can ALSO have the Dragon Fear! The Dragon Fear mixed with that capstone aura of the dragon monk is gonna be sweet. Finally. I'm thinking 3 levels of Path of the Beast barb for the natural weapons and the bite-heal.
Any ideas on how to build it so get the most out of the combo and feat? I'm specifically thinking about the starting class and level progression.
Starting as Barb is best for HP. get maxhit die 12 +con mod instead of the 8+con mod from a monk. After that i'd say go for monk till lvl 6 (since doing magical damage with fists is too stronk. Then i'd go for Barb 3.
For stats it depends what you want. Since my monk rolled stats i have insane stats (18 str-14dex-14con-9int-17wis-9cha) Starting as Variant Human and now lvl 6 (Got the Grappler and Sentinel Feat).
If you go for point buy or standard stats. I would say Barbarian-Monk is bad. Since its to heavy on stats needed. You need to have Str high for damage and to hit. High Dex and Wis for AC and Monks' save DC.
If you still want to make the build. Go for 15 str-14 dex-13 wis -12 con. Go for a race that brings str to 16 and wis or con to 14. Id say Variant Human is strong with a Feat and geting str 16-wis14.
I'm still pretty new to this so I'm definitely going to sound like a noob.
I'm also really curious about monk/barbarian multiclass. I really like the idea of giving a monk, barbarian as a subclass. Why? When I think of monks, I think of the more aggressive styles of Kung Fu. Xing Yi, or Xing Yi Quan depending on how you like to call it, is an amazing example of a very aggressive Kung Fu Style. Lots of big moves. A very offensive fighting style. With that in mind, it sounds like a cool combination. On paper at least. Looking at some of the comments. It would seem there is a bit of an issue with this multiclass.
I like to imagine a monk/barbarian being someone who was trained by monks, but isn't the typical monk. He might have some of his clothes from the time he spent training at the monastery, and he fights like a monk, but he doesn't act like a stereotypical monk. He's loud, likes to show off, and possibly displays a couple other traits that wouldn't be found in your average monk. This would be a neat reason to explain why he left his monastery. Maybe they kicked him out for being too egotistical. Maybe he respectively left due to strong differences in ideology. Maybe he just got sick and tired of all the other monks and their peace/love/happiness talk, and wanted to do something more 'fun' like adventuring or freelance mercenary work. Thoughts?
If you were monk with barbarian subclass, what would your level ratio be? How many levels would you put into monk and barbarian?
I was thinking here's this character with a HUGE anger mgmt. problem. After ruining his life a few times, and hurting all the ppl he cares about he finally hits bottom and leaves home and looks for a way to start over. He eventually hears of a far-of monastery and he heads off to find it. At the monastery he spends years cultivating stillness and centering himself. But one day he hits his thumb with a hammer... He freaks out and breaks half of the building he is in then it catches on fire and burns to the ground. Nobody actually asked him to leave but he saw the looks. He knew most were thinking it. So one night he leaves. He doesn't want to hurt anyone else. Now he continues what he started at the monastery and adventures to buy food.
Just remember that unarmored defense you only get the one from the class you started with. So if you started barb you don't get to add your wisdom to your dex for AC.
"Unarmored Defense
If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class."
Then it can be viable. But only if you get Str, Dex, Con, Wis high (at least 14 and one 16) since you need str for damage, Dex and wis for ac, con for hp and high wis for hit dice monk powers. You could have a low con and take the feat “tough”.
IMO, you primarily do this for the damage resistance of Rage. But that by itself is a massive advantage. Monks already have tools to work with to be situational dodge tanks, and if you throw in actual damage resistance into the mix and all of Monks defensive advantages such as Deflect Missiles, poison and disease resistance, and the coveted Diamond Soul later on you're really difficult to deal with. That damage resistance has synergy with Deflect Missiles as well, and doesn't distract from or disrupt a Monk's natural battle routine. You're still zipping around punching and kicking people and applying stuns, and whatever other benefits your monastic tradition gives you; you're just far sturdier which eases one of the class' biggest weaknesses. Maybe it's not "optimal" but I do think people underestimate this combination quite a bit.
Now that Astral Self is officially out too, I've been doing some theory crafting and there might be some very interesting potential synergy now. I wonder if it'd be possible to take its ability to substitute Strength checks and saves with Wisdom with its 3rd level ability, and combine it with Rage's ability to have advantage on Strength checks and saving throws. The specific wording is that you can "substitute" Strength with Wisdom here, so unless a DM rules otherwise I don't see why you couldn't just use Wisdom for those advantaged rage checks. If you take Barbarian to 3rd level, combine that with Ancestral Guardian to not only force creatures to try to hit your dodgy, high AC, Patient Defense using, physical damage resistant AND energy resistant (well not resistant per se, but Astral Self's level 11 ability gives you deflect missiles but for energy basically.)pseudo-tank Monk that can move around the board with ease(especially with the Mobile feat.), but protect others in doing so as well all while doing the same damage and stuns routine you'd always be doing. And most of all, the requirement to do all of this is consolidated into nearly a single stat (WIS), solving the potential MAD issue.
They wouldn't mix unless your DM likes to play fast and loose with the rules. Barbarian abilities specifically say they are done on strength related rolls. The substitution of Wisdom means that you can use strength. But you also have the option to forgo strength and anything that modifies strength rolls and use Wisdom instead. So your superseding everything that the Barbarian abilities rely upon. It's one of the downsides to changing the kind of roll you are doing. You may have powers that don't work for the stat your switching to.
And I haven't looked closely at what exactly is modified by the Astral Self yet. But you need to pay attention to that alot. Does it modify checks and saving throws or does it primarily modify attack rolls. There is a difference that is important.
I've have read it carefully. It modifies checks and saving throws very specifically stated. Quoted straight from the subclass' page in Tasha's:
"You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws."
And this straight from the Rage feature on Barbarian:
"You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws."
Honestly, I don't see anything in these two statements that either specifically states or even implies that the 3rd level Astral Self feature can't be used in conjunction with Rage's advantage on strength checks and saving throws. I think a situation where a player has advantage on a Strength check or save from Rage, but can choose to incorporate the Wisdom modifier for it instead is completely valid. I can even think of a flavor rationality for it, the Astral Self subclass is about literally materializing mental will, so for an Astral Self monk their mental will IS their strength even when enraged. Its the power of their spirit made manifest over physical strength.
The ONLY thing I could possibly see be used as rationality for a call against this is if a DM makes a call that says that checks and saves get advantage in these cases only if strength is used. It's a possible call, but because the official text itself clearly doesn't contradict using it like this I can't help but feel like making that call is a bit unnecessarily harsh and pedantic. I feel like its overly restrictive of a player who was only synergizing elements of two classes via multiclass, and its not like it breaks the game or anything; but again that's just me it's up to the individual DM. Either way though, I don't see anything that says a player can't utilize Rage's strength check and save advantage perk with Astral Self's ability to freely substitute Strength for Wisdom in those checks and saves.
It doesn't do much for the part of rage thats about damage rolls obviously, however that's still two out of three features of Rage working out and I think those two things (sheer durability and strength checks and saves...think grappling.) would serve a Monk really well so I still say it could be a good, maybe even great multiclass option for Astral Self.
Here is the problem. There is nothing the specifically states that they can be used in conjunction either. Which can often be a trap when it comes to Multi-classing characters.
And what your describing as their flavor actually does counter itself. Your talking about a mental focus versus a loss of mental control that your trying to gather into working at the same time. I'm not saying that it's unfair. I'm just saying I haven't gotten to look so be careful because there may be problems with it. If it does work it would really be one of the only things that really does synergize between the two classes because flavor and functionality wise they are pretty heavily at odds despite being both martial classes. I personally don't see the call as all that harsh when I consider it this way myself which is part of why I could see it happening.
Though I will say that I do recognize that even if they do work together it's only a very small advantage since Monk's are the Ruler's of Saving to begin with after a certain level and there are other ways to get things like advantage on the roll. Which may or may not be easier than taking class levels in another class. And monk's durability. People try a little too hard to boil it down to just one or two things but it's actually a variety of factors on just how durable that they actually are and how well they survive and their level of durability can depend in part on just what they are facing and what tier of play you are actually playing them in.
As for Grappling. I think it's heavily over rated and people put way too much stock into it and so spend far too much time trying to figure out how to cheese the system in various ways to make it work.
You guys are all operating under the assumption that this would just be better than just being a Dexterity-based Barbarian. What do Monk levels really gain us? Stunning Strike is cool, as is Flurry of Blows, but now you have to decide if you want to use Strength or Dexterity. If you dump Dexterity, you'll be giving up on having a good armor class, as barbarians only get proficiency with medium armor. Multiclassing into Monk is also incredibly MAD. To multiclass out of Barbarian, you will need 13 Strength. To multiclass out of Monk, you will need 13 Wisdom and `13 Dexterity. With all this in mind, you'll still need to put points into Constitution to keep yourself alive. If you go with (yuck) a regular Human, you can use Point Buy to give yourself three 13s and three 12s, which will at least give you enough to multiclass into everything. But with 14s in all your main stats and a delayed progression, meaning you will be perpetually behind on essential Ability Score Improvements, means you will not be contributing much to the fights, which is pretty much the only thing this multiclass would be built for. Additionally, your ki saves will be low due to not having good stats, so Stunning Strike is looking worse and worse.
That was my paragraph on why this is just not a good idea. Here's the thing though: What if we just didn't multiclass? What if we pumped our Barbarian's Dexterity and Constitution, but left the Wisdom behind? This is where it gets spicy. At level 1, with 16 Dexterity, a shield, and a rapier, we could have 18 AC. At first level, 18 AC is godlike! And it doesn't even stop there. We'll be putting out some pretty decent damage with our rapier, and since we're using d12s for Hit Dice and have a beefy Constitution, we'll be a huge meatbag. Granted, we aren't able to get quite as much out of Rage and Reckless Attack, because we are not a more traditional strongman. But Danger Sense is an incredible upside now that we have Dexterity, and if we go for the Totem Warrior Approach for resistance to all damage, we are now an unstoppable force that can tank hits for days. Who needs monasteries, and a connection with our body's ki? We are far stronger when we unleash the primal might of the wilds!
tl;dr: Don't multiclass Monks and Barbarians. It's MAD, and going full Barbarian is much stronger
Here's the problem with a dex based barbarian. A lot of it's core kit doesn't actually work with dexterity. Your basically throwing Rage and every other strength based class ability they get right out the window. It's not efficient. Barbarian's don't actually need that AC like other classes do because of things like their Rage and Danger Sense doesn't increase as drastically as you make it out to be making Dexterity a primary stat over a secondary stat. With Standard array your talking about a dex bonus increase of +2 at maximum over non-dex primaried barbarians and still relying more on the ability to make another roll than you are of the modifiers being in your favor since barbarians don't get dex as a proficient saving throw without feats.
On top of that. There is another issue. Almost no races actually synergize with a Dex barbarian. Your making concessions somewhere with the race if you want to do this so on something like standard array in most cases. The 16 dex, 16 Con to hit that magical 18 AC number of yours on that level 1 barbarian is almost impossible to hit. There may be like one other but the only 2 races that I can think of that actually gets dex and con bonuses would be the Stout Halfling and the Goblin. This would still mean you have to put the 15 in Con and the 14 in Dex to pull off because they get +2 dex, +1 con. This means that your limiting yourself a lot in pursuit of what you see as Godlike first level AC. Despite the fact that many classes with many race combinations are actually capable of this feat from level 1 and the game is actually balanced with that in mind and easy to handle for an experienced DM. Fighters, Clerics, and Paladins can all achieve it with nothing more than starting equipment afterall. All being able to get shields and Chain Mail or Scale Mail for free. With Rangers being able to achieve it if they pick up a shield somewhere in level one. Chain Mail doesn't even need a single point of dex modifier to achieve it either. And that's ignoring the fact that under the right circumstances and/or the right tweaks some of these classes that hit 18AC with just their base class stuff might actually be capable of something more like 20AC at starting level.
On top of that. With just something like standard array it's possible to hit the 3 13 scores you need to be able to multiclass right out of the box and have 4 13's or even 4 14's with a varied combination of races even if the stats aren't seen as the most optimal. This is why people focus more on the idea of multiclassing and doing a strength based monk rather than trying to make dex based barbarians work without the full functionality of some of their core features.
(note: Variant Human is probably technically possible of 16dex, 16con on standard array but it requires using your bonus feat basically for the half ASI in one of the two and may require feats you may or may not want to do so. I didn't look at them carefully to double check.)
Here's the problem with a dex based barbarian. A lot of it's core kit doesn't actually work with dexterity. Your basically throwing Rage and every other strength based class ability they get right out the window. It's not efficient.
Barbarians get four total abilities that care about Strength, and none of these abilities make me feel like it would be suboptimal to build a Dexy Barbarian. Firstly, they will get a small amount of bonus damage while raging. By small, I mean 2 or 3 points of bonus damage. That does not impress me. At level 2, they get Reckless Attack, which lets them gain advantage on Strength based attacks. This is the only ability that I think you really sacrifice by going for Dexterity over Strength. Level 18 is the next time you get an ability that cares about Strength. Most campaigns will never make it there, and it’s not an earthshaking ability anyway. It’s just okay. At level 20, you increase both Strength and Constitution by 4, to a maximum of 24. If you’re going to tell me that Dex-based Barbarians are sub-optimal because they don’t get full use out of their level 20 ability, go away. I have yet to play a game with level 20 characters, and I seriously doubt that that ability will make the difference, seeing as you’ll still be incredibly powerful. I will not be throwing my rage out the window. The extra damage is the worst bonus that rage gives you. The main attraction of rage is the resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage, which I will still have.
Despite the fact that many classes with many race combinations are actually capable of this feat from level 1 and the game is actually balanced with that in mind and easy to handle for an experienced DM. Fighters, Clerics, and Paladins can all achieve it with nothing more than starting equipment afterall. All being able to get shields and Chain Mail or Scale Mail for free. With Rangers being able to achieve it if they pick up a shield somewhere in level one. Chain Mail doesn't even need a single point of dex modifier to achieve it either. And that's ignoring the fact that under the right circumstances and/or the right tweaks some of these classes that hit 18AC with just their base class stuff might actually be capable of something more like 20AC at starting level.
It's true that Barbarians are not unique at being able to hit AC 18 at level 1, but they are able to scale it up from there. While it tops out at 21 for a Fighter with Plate Armor, a shield, and the Defense Fighting Style, Barbarians are able to take it up to 22 AC, have more HP, and have resistance to all types of damage except psychic.
On top of that. There is another issue. Almost no races actually synergize with a Dex barbarian. Your making concessions somewhere with the race if you want to do this so on something like standard array in most cases. The 16 dex, 16 Con to hit that magical 18 AC number of yours on that level 1 barbarian is almost impossible to hit. There may be like one other but the only 2 races that I can think of that actually gets dex and con bonuses would be the Stout Halfling and the Goblin. This would still mean you have to put the 15 in Con and the 14 in Dex to pull off because they get +2 dex, +1 con.
(note: Variant Human is probably technically possible of 16dex, 16con on standard array but it requires using your bonus feat basically for the half ASI in one of the two and may require feats you may or may not want to do so. I didn't look at them carefully to double check.)
I see the confusion here. I'm using Point Buy for my numbers, meaning I can give the character two 15s in Dex and Con each, which means Humans work fine.
On top of that. With just something like standard array it's possible to hit the 3 13 scores you need to be able to multiclass right out of the box and have 4 13's or even 4 14's with a varied combination of races even if the stats aren't seen as the most optimal. This is why people focus more on the idea of multiclassing and doing a strength based monk rather than trying to make dex based barbarians work without the full functionality of some of their core features.
It’s possible, yes. I never said it wasn’t. But it’s not good. You need 13s in 3 different stats, and dumping Constitution is never a good idea. I never stated that it was impossible, I said that it was bad.
First of all. If your using point buy to make it work. State your using Point buy to make it work. Because that is an important distinction.
Second of all. Any character pulling off such AC's with armor and things like Defensive fighting Style are not capped out at 21. There is still the potential for magical armor and shields. This means that they actually cap out at 26-27 if they get a +3 version of both. Much higher than your 22 on your Barbarian at or near Max Level despite your telling me to go away if I talk about Max level at all because you don't and never have played at that level. Though your actually wrong at their maximum AC calculation since you don't play at that high. Assuming you max out your Barbarian and your Constitution You can actually get a 22 from stats alone. 24 with a regular shield and 27 with a +3 shield. It being only fair to give one to the barbarian if we're giving one to the fighter, the paladin, or the Cleric.
However. You've already tossed away part of your damage potential from rage where at lower level that actual extra guaranteed damage per hit can actually be even more important than at higher level. And your admittedly tossing away your at will Advantage on hit which is vastly useful at most any level. Just for a couple points of AC. These two abilities alone trump what the couple of points of AC are actually going to spare you considering the other defensive capabilities of the barbarian that make those couple of points a lot less valuable to the Barbarian over any of the other high AC characters that can easily be made without sacrificing any part of their class kits to make it happen. And I haven't even brought most of those class kits into the discussion. Things like Shield of Faith, Bless, Guiding Bolt, and Cure wounds from the Cleric alone all add both offensive and defensive capability to them and in some cases their party members all without having to make sacrifices.
The reality is that your trading off parts of your kit for a few minor bonuses in very specific places and some of those places are entirely situational. I'm not saying that it's not a potentially viable build. But it is in no way an amazing build of any kind. There are several classes more suited to it and do it better. And because your hampering yourself out of parts of your own kit with such a build. I would not say that it is in any way actually better than the MAD nature of a Barbarian-Monk multiclass because the truth is. Your just trading one issue for another to make it.
Sigh. Fine, let's talk about magic items. You only gave our theoretical Barbarian a +3 Shield. Let's throw in a Defender Rapier, too. Why not Bracers of Defense too? They're Uncommon. And since you insist on talking about level 20 characters, let's give him 24 Constitution. This Barbarian has 31 AC. But you're missing my point entirely. It's not all about the AC.
You're next paragraph reasserts your belief that by going for Dexterity, I throw away too much. I have already covered this, but sure. Let's do it again. I toss away two damage per attack. Two damage is nothing. You are right, I am tossing away my rage damage. But are you actually trying to say that you would rather have 2, 3, or 4, more damage per attack then have 3,4, or 5 more Armor Class, initiative, or even just as a bonus to a Dex saving throw? You also mention that other classes have other things to do that add offensive and defensive power. Which is good for them. Thing is, Barbarians also get things. I've already praised the totem warrior in this thread, but I'll say it again. They are incredible. If you bring your level up to 14, you'll get the ability to give every foe standing next to you disadvantage on attacks against your teammates. I'm exclusively mentioning subclass features right now, by the way. You'll still get all of the traditional Barbarian goodies, like Extra Attack, Relentless Rage, and Feral Instinct. All of this isn't mentioning feats. You can take things like Shield Master to try and knock opponents prone as a bonus action every turn, or Resilient (Dex) to give yourself Proficiency in Dexterity Saving Throws. You have been constantly saying that by going for Dexterity, am locking myself out of parts of the class. And yes, you lose out on 1 good ability, 1 ok ability that comes at level 18, some minor damage, and part of your capstone, which is incredible nonetheless. You gain about +6 AC (Not including magic items), a killer initiative, and the ability to tank for days. That's a good trade in my opinion
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
The Bracers of Defense and defender weapon and all that are actually pointless. That's why I didn't bother adding them in. I also didn't bother adding them in because they weren't purely armor or it's alternate calculation equivalent. And anything you give one you can give the rest for the most part.
As for the rest of your rant. It's also mostly pointless because it applies to Barbarians that are strength based as well and some of them they actually get arguable more use out of than your dex barbarian does. Dex only boosts a very few things for a Barbarian. Relentless Rage is outright diminished in usefulness because you've thrown out a large part of the benefits of rage from the very start. So saying you still have it isn't actually the same thing as having it and being Strength based. All those subclass abilities. Same thing. They are either entirely irrelevant because you still have them as a Strength Barbarian or in the case of certain ones they are still actually nerfed over what other barbarians have. Because we should keep in mind that there are actually multiple Totem options that could be taken. Your carry capacity at level 6 with Bear as your totem for example is actually diminished by quite a bit if you have low strength. And bringing the level up to 14 is pushing dangerously close into levels you don't play at so you got mad at me for even considering. But now they are relevant because you think they help make your point. The problem being that even as a Strength Barbarian at level 14 you still have that ability. You still have the resistance to damages and you still have a truck load of HP that can take a great deal for any enemy to work their way through regardless of those couple extra points of AC and at levels where the creatures delivering those attacks are at even better to hit bonuses.
Your idea that you think you have these great trade offs... they just aren't there. Barbarians that are strength builds can still get all of them without sacrificing parts of the kit. And when they can't get them the differences are small and often made up elsewhere. There is no actual +6 AC to be gained without magical items between your Dex barbarian and a Strength Barbarian. It just does not exist. Not even with a dexterity of 10 on the Strength Barbarian which is highly unlikely. Even a typical 14 dex Strength Barbarian without the shield is only 5 less but that is assuming equipment differences to AC being entirely in your dex barbarians favor and your Dex barbarian is never once caught without his shield. Initiative isn't necessarily that important because it can work against any tank as much as it can work for them and tanks often enough are served in combat to be able to take their turns in response to the enemies turns and where they position themselves.
Your just all around highly over stating your advantages by going with such a build even if the losses are acceptable for you. On top of that. I haven't even brought up other factors like the fact that your highly CC'able because most CC abilities don't actually go against your dexterity in most cases. They tend to be against Strength or a mental stat though a few break this mold like Stunning Strike which is a Con Save which works out the same for either kind of barbarian. A CC'd tank is a bad thing. A highly CC'able tank is even worse because if the enemy has any brains at all the tank might as well not exist with the way they lock them down. And bringing up CC does in fact bring up another issue altogether. All of the AC is completely pointless against any spells and attacks that actually bypass your AC and instead work off of things like saves and your only filling that gap with 2 to 3 more points modifier in your dexterity at most and convincing yourself that's going to fill the gaps. (incidentally CC issues can be a problem for a monk-Barbarian multiclass as well. At least until they get to level 11 in monk. But even then they are still never quite as good as they could be.)
Now can we stop all of this and get back to the actual subject of the thread?
Here is the problem. There is nothing the specifically states that they can be used in conjunction either. Which can often be a trap when it comes to Multi-classing characters.
And what your describing as their flavor actually does counter itself. Your talking about a mental focus versus a loss of mental control that your trying to gather into working at the same time. I'm not saying that it's unfair. I'm just saying I haven't gotten to look so be careful because there may be problems with it. If it does work it would really be one of the only things that really does synergize between the two classes because flavor and functionality wise they are pretty heavily at odds despite being both martial classes. I personally don't see the call as all that harsh when I consider it this way myself which is part of why I could see it happening.
Though I will say that I do recognize that even if they do work together it's only a very small advantage since Monk's are the Ruler's of Saving to begin with after a certain level and there are other ways to get things like advantage on the roll. Which may or may not be easier than taking class levels in another class. And monk's durability. People try a little too hard to boil it down to just one or two things but it's actually a variety of factors on just how durable that they actually are and how well they survive and their level of durability can depend in part on just what they are facing and what tier of play you are actually playing them in.
As for Grappling. I think it's heavily over rated and people put way too much stock into it and so spend far too much time trying to figure out how to cheese the system in various ways to make it work.
I suppose...but I feel like that's getting a little too into semantics at that point. If we're talking about whether this combination is possible or not (and not so much whether it's good...which I still think it is on paper at least, but one subject at a time.) my general mentality with wording in 5e is that if they didn't want you to do something, they'll specifically tell you not to...which they've been pretty good at doing generally. Otherwise it's on the table, and up to the DM's call. While 5e generally keeps things like that open ended so DM's can make calls as they deem necessary, personally I don't think one needs the text to specifically tell you that the features of two separate classes synergize together for it to be possible, because that frankly would take a lot of the fun out of multiclassing imo.
If I were the DM making the call I'd allow it, because at the end of the day, what's at stake here? A Monk being able to do heavy lifting and harden their skin against attacks? It's not gonna steal the show from the plethora of other crazy things that are possible within the rules like a Sorcerer twinning Polymorph, a Fighter with the Sentinel feat and Polearm feat combined, or even a Shadow Monk multiclassing Warlock to get the Devil's Sight Invocation to name a few things. It does give Astral Self a potentially unique subclass option though, which the way I see it can only be a positive thing.
It's certainly possible to make the call to deny it if a DM wants like I said, though I don't really see why one would be so against it but hey to each their own.
PS: I ve also made an alternative build with the modified standard array home brewed rule by the Dungeon Dudes Youtube channel (which is 17; 15; 13; 12; 10; 8). This HB is basically an alt version of the standard array, the reasons behind this numbers are explained in their video "Five simple House Rules for character creation". Basically this system let players create non standard charachters without rolling dice and without falling too much behind if compared with the classic minmaxing builds. In my opinion it's a well balanced home brewed rule. Nevertheless It's a house rule so I will use it only if the DM will allow it in our game.
Dnd Dudes modified standard array. ST17, DX12, CO15, IN8, WI13, C10; Race St Human ST18, DX13, CO16, IN9, WI14, CA11. Same leveling progression as above. First ASI at 5th Lv: Resilient (STR18, DX14 (Resilient), CO16, WI14, IN9 CA11 ; second ASI Mobile; third ASI STR+2 (ST20, DX14 (Resilient), CO16, WI14, IN9 CA11) or third ASI CO+2 (ST18, DX14 (Resilient), CO18, WI14, IN9 CA10) for a better AC and HP or Defensive duelist feat.
depends on dm
So with the new Dragon Monk UA out, my mind immediately went to a Dragonborn Dragon Monk with the Dragon Fear feat. With the monk breath of the dragon you can still breath and can ALSO have the Dragon Fear! The Dragon Fear mixed with that capstone aura of the dragon monk is gonna be sweet. Finally. I'm thinking 3 levels of Path of the Beast barb for the natural weapons and the bite-heal.
Any ideas on how to build it so get the most out of the combo and feat? I'm specifically thinking about the starting class and level progression.
Starting as Barb is best for HP. get maxhit die 12 +con mod instead of the 8+con mod from a monk. After that i'd say go for monk till lvl 6 (since doing magical damage with fists is too stronk. Then i'd go for Barb 3.
For stats it depends what you want. Since my monk rolled stats i have insane stats (18 str-14dex-14con-9int-17wis-9cha) Starting as Variant Human and now lvl 6 (Got the Grappler and Sentinel Feat).
If you go for point buy or standard stats. I would say Barbarian-Monk is bad. Since its to heavy on stats needed. You need to have Str high for damage and to hit. High Dex and Wis for AC and Monks' save DC.
If you still want to make the build. Go for 15 str-14 dex-13 wis -12 con. Go for a race that brings str to 16 and wis or con to 14. Id say Variant Human is strong with a Feat and geting str 16-wis14.
It would be rolled stats.
I'm still pretty new to this so I'm definitely going to sound like a noob.
I'm also really curious about monk/barbarian multiclass. I really like the idea of giving a monk, barbarian as a subclass. Why? When I think of monks, I think of the more aggressive styles of Kung Fu. Xing Yi, or Xing Yi Quan depending on how you like to call it, is an amazing example of a very aggressive Kung Fu Style. Lots of big moves. A very offensive fighting style. With that in mind, it sounds like a cool combination. On paper at least. Looking at some of the comments. It would seem there is a bit of an issue with this multiclass.
I like to imagine a monk/barbarian being someone who was trained by monks, but isn't the typical monk. He might have some of his clothes from the time he spent training at the monastery, and he fights like a monk, but he doesn't act like a stereotypical monk. He's loud, likes to show off, and possibly displays a couple other traits that wouldn't be found in your average monk. This would be a neat reason to explain why he left his monastery. Maybe they kicked him out for being too egotistical. Maybe he respectively left due to strong differences in ideology. Maybe he just got sick and tired of all the other monks and their peace/love/happiness talk, and wanted to do something more 'fun' like adventuring or freelance mercenary work. Thoughts?
If you were monk with barbarian subclass, what would your level ratio be? How many levels would you put into monk and barbarian?
Thanks in advanced!
"We are what we repeatedy do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle.
The classy class clown passes cracked black brass glasses in class.
(try saying that really fast.)
I was thinking here's this character with a HUGE anger mgmt. problem. After ruining his life a few times, and hurting all the ppl he cares about he finally hits bottom and leaves home and looks for a way to start over. He eventually hears of a far-of monastery and he heads off to find it. At the monastery he spends years cultivating stillness and centering himself. But one day he hits his thumb with a hammer... He freaks out and breaks half of the building he is in then it catches on fire and burns to the ground. Nobody actually asked him to leave but he saw the looks. He knew most were thinking it. So one night he leaves. He doesn't want to hurt anyone else. Now he continues what he started at the monastery and adventures to buy food.
Just remember that unarmored defense you only get the one from the class you started with. So if you started barb you don't get to add your wisdom to your dex for AC.
"Unarmored Defense
If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class."
Then it can be viable. But only if you get Str, Dex, Con, Wis high (at least 14 and one 16) since you need str for damage, Dex and wis for ac, con for hp and high wis for hit dice monk powers. You could have a low con and take the feat “tough”.
IMO, you primarily do this for the damage resistance of Rage. But that by itself is a massive advantage. Monks already have tools to work with to be situational dodge tanks, and if you throw in actual damage resistance into the mix and all of Monks defensive advantages such as Deflect Missiles, poison and disease resistance, and the coveted Diamond Soul later on you're really difficult to deal with. That damage resistance has synergy with Deflect Missiles as well, and doesn't distract from or disrupt a Monk's natural battle routine. You're still zipping around punching and kicking people and applying stuns, and whatever other benefits your monastic tradition gives you; you're just far sturdier which eases one of the class' biggest weaknesses. Maybe it's not "optimal" but I do think people underestimate this combination quite a bit.
Now that Astral Self is officially out too, I've been doing some theory crafting and there might be some very interesting potential synergy now. I wonder if it'd be possible to take its ability to substitute Strength checks and saves with Wisdom with its 3rd level ability, and combine it with Rage's ability to have advantage on Strength checks and saving throws. The specific wording is that you can "substitute" Strength with Wisdom here, so unless a DM rules otherwise I don't see why you couldn't just use Wisdom for those advantaged rage checks. If you take Barbarian to 3rd level, combine that with Ancestral Guardian to not only force creatures to try to hit your dodgy, high AC, Patient Defense using, physical damage resistant AND energy resistant (well not resistant per se, but Astral Self's level 11 ability gives you deflect missiles but for energy basically.)pseudo-tank Monk that can move around the board with ease(especially with the Mobile feat.), but protect others in doing so as well all while doing the same damage and stuns routine you'd always be doing. And most of all, the requirement to do all of this is consolidated into nearly a single stat (WIS), solving the potential MAD issue.
They wouldn't mix unless your DM likes to play fast and loose with the rules. Barbarian abilities specifically say they are done on strength related rolls. The substitution of Wisdom means that you can use strength. But you also have the option to forgo strength and anything that modifies strength rolls and use Wisdom instead. So your superseding everything that the Barbarian abilities rely upon. It's one of the downsides to changing the kind of roll you are doing. You may have powers that don't work for the stat your switching to.
And I haven't looked closely at what exactly is modified by the Astral Self yet. But you need to pay attention to that alot. Does it modify checks and saving throws or does it primarily modify attack rolls. There is a difference that is important.
I've have read it carefully. It modifies checks and saving throws very specifically stated. Quoted straight from the subclass' page in Tasha's:
"You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws."
And this straight from the Rage feature on Barbarian:
"You have advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws."
Honestly, I don't see anything in these two statements that either specifically states or even implies that the 3rd level Astral Self feature can't be used in conjunction with Rage's advantage on strength checks and saving throws. I think a situation where a player has advantage on a Strength check or save from Rage, but can choose to incorporate the Wisdom modifier for it instead is completely valid. I can even think of a flavor rationality for it, the Astral Self subclass is about literally materializing mental will, so for an Astral Self monk their mental will IS their strength even when enraged. Its the power of their spirit made manifest over physical strength.
The ONLY thing I could possibly see be used as rationality for a call against this is if a DM makes a call that says that checks and saves get advantage in these cases only if strength is used. It's a possible call, but because the official text itself clearly doesn't contradict using it like this I can't help but feel like making that call is a bit unnecessarily harsh and pedantic. I feel like its overly restrictive of a player who was only synergizing elements of two classes via multiclass, and its not like it breaks the game or anything; but again that's just me it's up to the individual DM. Either way though, I don't see anything that says a player can't utilize Rage's strength check and save advantage perk with Astral Self's ability to freely substitute Strength for Wisdom in those checks and saves.
It doesn't do much for the part of rage thats about damage rolls obviously, however that's still two out of three features of Rage working out and I think those two things (sheer durability and strength checks and saves...think grappling.) would serve a Monk really well so I still say it could be a good, maybe even great multiclass option for Astral Self.
Here is the problem. There is nothing the specifically states that they can be used in conjunction either. Which can often be a trap when it comes to Multi-classing characters.
And what your describing as their flavor actually does counter itself. Your talking about a mental focus versus a loss of mental control that your trying to gather into working at the same time. I'm not saying that it's unfair. I'm just saying I haven't gotten to look so be careful because there may be problems with it. If it does work it would really be one of the only things that really does synergize between the two classes because flavor and functionality wise they are pretty heavily at odds despite being both martial classes. I personally don't see the call as all that harsh when I consider it this way myself which is part of why I could see it happening.
Though I will say that I do recognize that even if they do work together it's only a very small advantage since Monk's are the Ruler's of Saving to begin with after a certain level and there are other ways to get things like advantage on the roll. Which may or may not be easier than taking class levels in another class. And monk's durability. People try a little too hard to boil it down to just one or two things but it's actually a variety of factors on just how durable that they actually are and how well they survive and their level of durability can depend in part on just what they are facing and what tier of play you are actually playing them in.
As for Grappling. I think it's heavily over rated and people put way too much stock into it and so spend far too much time trying to figure out how to cheese the system in various ways to make it work.
You guys are all operating under the assumption that this would just be better than just being a Dexterity-based Barbarian. What do Monk levels really gain us? Stunning Strike is cool, as is Flurry of Blows, but now you have to decide if you want to use Strength or Dexterity. If you dump Dexterity, you'll be giving up on having a good armor class, as barbarians only get proficiency with medium armor. Multiclassing into Monk is also incredibly MAD. To multiclass out of Barbarian, you will need 13 Strength. To multiclass out of Monk, you will need 13 Wisdom and `13 Dexterity. With all this in mind, you'll still need to put points into Constitution to keep yourself alive. If you go with (yuck) a regular Human, you can use Point Buy to give yourself three 13s and three 12s, which will at least give you enough to multiclass into everything. But with 14s in all your main stats and a delayed progression, meaning you will be perpetually behind on essential Ability Score Improvements, means you will not be contributing much to the fights, which is pretty much the only thing this multiclass would be built for. Additionally, your ki saves will be low due to not having good stats, so Stunning Strike is looking worse and worse.
That was my paragraph on why this is just not a good idea. Here's the thing though: What if we just didn't multiclass? What if we pumped our Barbarian's Dexterity and Constitution, but left the Wisdom behind? This is where it gets spicy. At level 1, with 16 Dexterity, a shield, and a rapier, we could have 18 AC. At first level, 18 AC is godlike! And it doesn't even stop there. We'll be putting out some pretty decent damage with our rapier, and since we're using d12s for Hit Dice and have a beefy Constitution, we'll be a huge meatbag. Granted, we aren't able to get quite as much out of Rage and Reckless Attack, because we are not a more traditional strongman. But Danger Sense is an incredible upside now that we have Dexterity, and if we go for the Totem Warrior Approach for resistance to all damage, we are now an unstoppable force that can tank hits for days. Who needs monasteries, and a connection with our body's ki? We are far stronger when we unleash the primal might of the wilds!
tl;dr: Don't multiclass Monks and Barbarians. It's MAD, and going full Barbarian is much stronger
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
Here's the problem with a dex based barbarian. A lot of it's core kit doesn't actually work with dexterity. Your basically throwing Rage and every other strength based class ability they get right out the window. It's not efficient. Barbarian's don't actually need that AC like other classes do because of things like their Rage and Danger Sense doesn't increase as drastically as you make it out to be making Dexterity a primary stat over a secondary stat. With Standard array your talking about a dex bonus increase of +2 at maximum over non-dex primaried barbarians and still relying more on the ability to make another roll than you are of the modifiers being in your favor since barbarians don't get dex as a proficient saving throw without feats.
On top of that. There is another issue. Almost no races actually synergize with a Dex barbarian. Your making concessions somewhere with the race if you want to do this so on something like standard array in most cases. The 16 dex, 16 Con to hit that magical 18 AC number of yours on that level 1 barbarian is almost impossible to hit. There may be like one other but the only 2 races that I can think of that actually gets dex and con bonuses would be the Stout Halfling and the Goblin. This would still mean you have to put the 15 in Con and the 14 in Dex to pull off because they get +2 dex, +1 con. This means that your limiting yourself a lot in pursuit of what you see as Godlike first level AC. Despite the fact that many classes with many race combinations are actually capable of this feat from level 1 and the game is actually balanced with that in mind and easy to handle for an experienced DM. Fighters, Clerics, and Paladins can all achieve it with nothing more than starting equipment afterall. All being able to get shields and Chain Mail or Scale Mail for free. With Rangers being able to achieve it if they pick up a shield somewhere in level one. Chain Mail doesn't even need a single point of dex modifier to achieve it either. And that's ignoring the fact that under the right circumstances and/or the right tweaks some of these classes that hit 18AC with just their base class stuff might actually be capable of something more like 20AC at starting level.
On top of that. With just something like standard array it's possible to hit the 3 13 scores you need to be able to multiclass right out of the box and have 4 13's or even 4 14's with a varied combination of races even if the stats aren't seen as the most optimal. This is why people focus more on the idea of multiclassing and doing a strength based monk rather than trying to make dex based barbarians work without the full functionality of some of their core features.
(note: Variant Human is probably technically possible of 16dex, 16con on standard array but it requires using your bonus feat basically for the half ASI in one of the two and may require feats you may or may not want to do so. I didn't look at them carefully to double check.)
Barbarians get four total abilities that care about Strength, and none of these abilities make me feel like it would be suboptimal to build a Dexy Barbarian. Firstly, they will get a small amount of bonus damage while raging. By small, I mean 2 or 3 points of bonus damage. That does not impress me. At level 2, they get Reckless Attack, which lets them gain advantage on Strength based attacks. This is the only ability that I think you really sacrifice by going for Dexterity over Strength. Level 18 is the next time you get an ability that cares about Strength. Most campaigns will never make it there, and it’s not an earthshaking ability anyway. It’s just okay. At level 20, you increase both Strength and Constitution by 4, to a maximum of 24. If you’re going to tell me that Dex-based Barbarians are sub-optimal because they don’t get full use out of their level 20 ability, go away. I have yet to play a game with level 20 characters, and I seriously doubt that that ability will make the difference, seeing as you’ll still be incredibly powerful. I will not be throwing my rage out the window. The extra damage is the worst bonus that rage gives you. The main attraction of rage is the resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage, which I will still have.
It's true that Barbarians are not unique at being able to hit AC 18 at level 1, but they are able to scale it up from there. While it tops out at 21 for a Fighter with Plate Armor, a shield, and the Defense Fighting Style, Barbarians are able to take it up to 22 AC, have more HP, and have resistance to all types of damage except psychic.
I see the confusion here. I'm using Point Buy for my numbers, meaning I can give the character two 15s in Dex and Con each, which means Humans work fine.
It’s possible, yes. I never said it wasn’t. But it’s not good. You need 13s in 3 different stats, and dumping Constitution is never a good idea. I never stated that it was impossible, I said that it was bad.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
First of all. If your using point buy to make it work. State your using Point buy to make it work. Because that is an important distinction.
Second of all. Any character pulling off such AC's with armor and things like Defensive fighting Style are not capped out at 21. There is still the potential for magical armor and shields. This means that they actually cap out at 26-27 if they get a +3 version of both. Much higher than your 22 on your Barbarian at or near Max Level despite your telling me to go away if I talk about Max level at all because you don't and never have played at that level. Though your actually wrong at their maximum AC calculation since you don't play at that high. Assuming you max out your Barbarian and your Constitution You can actually get a 22 from stats alone. 24 with a regular shield and 27 with a +3 shield. It being only fair to give one to the barbarian if we're giving one to the fighter, the paladin, or the Cleric.
However. You've already tossed away part of your damage potential from rage where at lower level that actual extra guaranteed damage per hit can actually be even more important than at higher level. And your admittedly tossing away your at will Advantage on hit which is vastly useful at most any level. Just for a couple points of AC. These two abilities alone trump what the couple of points of AC are actually going to spare you considering the other defensive capabilities of the barbarian that make those couple of points a lot less valuable to the Barbarian over any of the other high AC characters that can easily be made without sacrificing any part of their class kits to make it happen. And I haven't even brought most of those class kits into the discussion. Things like Shield of Faith, Bless, Guiding Bolt, and Cure wounds from the Cleric alone all add both offensive and defensive capability to them and in some cases their party members all without having to make sacrifices.
The reality is that your trading off parts of your kit for a few minor bonuses in very specific places and some of those places are entirely situational. I'm not saying that it's not a potentially viable build. But it is in no way an amazing build of any kind. There are several classes more suited to it and do it better. And because your hampering yourself out of parts of your own kit with such a build. I would not say that it is in any way actually better than the MAD nature of a Barbarian-Monk multiclass because the truth is. Your just trading one issue for another to make it.
Sigh. Fine, let's talk about magic items. You only gave our theoretical Barbarian a +3 Shield. Let's throw in a Defender Rapier, too. Why not Bracers of Defense too? They're Uncommon. And since you insist on talking about level 20 characters, let's give him 24 Constitution. This Barbarian has 31 AC. But you're missing my point entirely. It's not all about the AC.
You're next paragraph reasserts your belief that by going for Dexterity, I throw away too much. I have already covered this, but sure. Let's do it again. I toss away two damage per attack. Two damage is nothing. You are right, I am tossing away my rage damage. But are you actually trying to say that you would rather have 2, 3, or 4, more damage per attack then have 3,4, or 5 more Armor Class, initiative, or even just as a bonus to a Dex saving throw? You also mention that other classes have other things to do that add offensive and defensive power. Which is good for them. Thing is, Barbarians also get things. I've already praised the totem warrior in this thread, but I'll say it again. They are incredible. If you bring your level up to 14, you'll get the ability to give every foe standing next to you disadvantage on attacks against your teammates. I'm exclusively mentioning subclass features right now, by the way. You'll still get all of the traditional Barbarian goodies, like Extra Attack, Relentless Rage, and Feral Instinct. All of this isn't mentioning feats. You can take things like Shield Master to try and knock opponents prone as a bonus action every turn, or Resilient (Dex) to give yourself Proficiency in Dexterity Saving Throws. You have been constantly saying that by going for Dexterity, am locking myself out of parts of the class. And yes, you lose out on 1 good ability, 1 ok ability that comes at level 18, some minor damage, and part of your capstone, which is incredible nonetheless. You gain about +6 AC (Not including magic items), a killer initiative, and the ability to tank for days. That's a good trade in my opinion
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
The Bracers of Defense and defender weapon and all that are actually pointless. That's why I didn't bother adding them in. I also didn't bother adding them in because they weren't purely armor or it's alternate calculation equivalent. And anything you give one you can give the rest for the most part.
As for the rest of your rant. It's also mostly pointless because it applies to Barbarians that are strength based as well and some of them they actually get arguable more use out of than your dex barbarian does. Dex only boosts a very few things for a Barbarian. Relentless Rage is outright diminished in usefulness because you've thrown out a large part of the benefits of rage from the very start. So saying you still have it isn't actually the same thing as having it and being Strength based. All those subclass abilities. Same thing. They are either entirely irrelevant because you still have them as a Strength Barbarian or in the case of certain ones they are still actually nerfed over what other barbarians have. Because we should keep in mind that there are actually multiple Totem options that could be taken. Your carry capacity at level 6 with Bear as your totem for example is actually diminished by quite a bit if you have low strength. And bringing the level up to 14 is pushing dangerously close into levels you don't play at so you got mad at me for even considering. But now they are relevant because you think they help make your point. The problem being that even as a Strength Barbarian at level 14 you still have that ability. You still have the resistance to damages and you still have a truck load of HP that can take a great deal for any enemy to work their way through regardless of those couple extra points of AC and at levels where the creatures delivering those attacks are at even better to hit bonuses.
Your idea that you think you have these great trade offs... they just aren't there. Barbarians that are strength builds can still get all of them without sacrificing parts of the kit. And when they can't get them the differences are small and often made up elsewhere. There is no actual +6 AC to be gained without magical items between your Dex barbarian and a Strength Barbarian. It just does not exist. Not even with a dexterity of 10 on the Strength Barbarian which is highly unlikely. Even a typical 14 dex Strength Barbarian without the shield is only 5 less but that is assuming equipment differences to AC being entirely in your dex barbarians favor and your Dex barbarian is never once caught without his shield. Initiative isn't necessarily that important because it can work against any tank as much as it can work for them and tanks often enough are served in combat to be able to take their turns in response to the enemies turns and where they position themselves.
Your just all around highly over stating your advantages by going with such a build even if the losses are acceptable for you. On top of that. I haven't even brought up other factors like the fact that your highly CC'able because most CC abilities don't actually go against your dexterity in most cases. They tend to be against Strength or a mental stat though a few break this mold like Stunning Strike which is a Con Save which works out the same for either kind of barbarian. A CC'd tank is a bad thing. A highly CC'able tank is even worse because if the enemy has any brains at all the tank might as well not exist with the way they lock them down. And bringing up CC does in fact bring up another issue altogether. All of the AC is completely pointless against any spells and attacks that actually bypass your AC and instead work off of things like saves and your only filling that gap with 2 to 3 more points modifier in your dexterity at most and convincing yourself that's going to fill the gaps. (incidentally CC issues can be a problem for a monk-Barbarian multiclass as well. At least until they get to level 11 in monk. But even then they are still never quite as good as they could be.)
Now can we stop all of this and get back to the actual subject of the thread?
I suppose...but I feel like that's getting a little too into semantics at that point. If we're talking about whether this combination is possible or not (and not so much whether it's good...which I still think it is on paper at least, but one subject at a time.) my general mentality with wording in 5e is that if they didn't want you to do something, they'll specifically tell you not to...which they've been pretty good at doing generally. Otherwise it's on the table, and up to the DM's call. While 5e generally keeps things like that open ended so DM's can make calls as they deem necessary, personally I don't think one needs the text to specifically tell you that the features of two separate classes synergize together for it to be possible, because that frankly would take a lot of the fun out of multiclassing imo.
If I were the DM making the call I'd allow it, because at the end of the day, what's at stake here? A Monk being able to do heavy lifting and harden their skin against attacks? It's not gonna steal the show from the plethora of other crazy things that are possible within the rules like a Sorcerer twinning Polymorph, a Fighter with the Sentinel feat and Polearm feat combined, or even a Shadow Monk multiclassing Warlock to get the Devil's Sight Invocation to name a few things. It does give Astral Self a potentially unique subclass option though, which the way I see it can only be a positive thing.
It's certainly possible to make the call to deny it if a DM wants like I said, though I don't really see why one would be so against it but hey to each their own.