Have you ever climbed on something where you couldn't pause for a moment to compose yourself? The rules still utilize basic English and common sense. If you couldn't grab onto something and hang there, you wouldn't be able to climb in the first place. And yes, switching to a different kind of movement isn't stopping. But there's nothing in the rules that says switching from walking to climbing takes up any movement (or action, object interaction, etc), so you could reasonably assume it is free, just like dropping prone. So: run up wall 40 ft, switch to climb/"go prone" along side of wall, cling to wall. All allowable via the rules, though a lot of that is DM fiat (I'd say that you'd need to climb at least 5ft to be able to hold onto the wall at the end of your turn, and you'd need both hands free, and depending on surface, probably an Athletics check).
I've seen videos of people doing such things with parkour training, which is what Im guessing the unarmored movement is kind of working on. Like how a trained, fit person can run along a wall for a little way, but not run up a wall for 2 stories (or technically infinite heights for a level 9+ monk).
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Refer back to my switching between walking speed and climbing speed points.
I think we are agreed that a monk can attempt to switch to climbing from walking, assuming they are meant to run up walls vertically in the first place.
As for requiring both hands once they have switched to climbing, I can easily imagine someone who is fit enough to do that hanging by one hand and shooting of a hand crossbow or throwing a dart.
Your whole argument has been about the word "along" implying "horizontal". However, per Spider Climb, "across" implies "horizontal". A little bit of inference goes a long way here. If the word choice is so important, then why use two different prepositions here?
Across can just mean travel across a plane, regardless of orientation. But it is definitely used to imply horizontal movement where up/down is specified in spider climb.
That doesn't mean Along is omni-directional. If anything, across and along could be synonymous to the designers where they are used in these rules' text, as in traveling across a plain in a purely horizontal sense.
To me, this shows that "along" means "in any direction", aka if Spider Climb said "along" then it would mean the exact same thing as its current language. If "along" truly meant "horizontal", then Spider Climb would read "up, down, and along vertical surfaces".
The problem with this is that if they were really thinking of if "along" really means "any direction" because of the language in Spider Climb... why would they use "up, down, and across" for spider climb?
More likely, they were not comparing Spider Climb and the monk's unarmed movement when designing them because they do not do the same thing (as in one lets you run any which way on walls, and one just lets you run "along" a wall like a parkour runner).
Or possibly, different design team members were over monk abilities and spells, so they were not coordinating that language that incredibly carefully. If there were some clearly unintended consequence like a powerful combat advantage, they probably would have addressed it with everything else that was addressed in the errata. But if monks could theoretically simulate levitation for free, its really more of a thing for a DM to deal with.
There's dozens of videos of parkour runners going up vertical walls with minimal/no use of hands. From the looks of it, 15-20 foot walls are not out of the realm of possibility for a premier -parkour runner to climb sans hands. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfanXo0UtR0
Now, extrapolate this to a person who can do such magical things as punch ghosts (level six monks), spend six seconds to purge fear from their mind (level seven monks), and potentially teleport from one shadow to another (level six shadow monks). Being able to run vertically 50 feet isn't exactly a stretch in terms of abilities.
Being able to Levitate at will is literally a 9th level Warlock invocation. It's not crazy for a 9th level monk to have a similar ability. It's not OP. It's logical based on what it says on the tin.
Oh, I agree. Im not making any argument from realism. Just the description of the ability.
Also, its strictly better than the Warlock invocation. The invocation still requires your action, while moving doesn't even require your bonus action. Even making a dex/strength check to swap to climbing isn't an action.
Now it still might not be something that could be abused enough to be addressed in errata. Not all GM's play around with elevation that much, and it would take a really specific monk build or abundance of nearby walls in battlefields for a monk to consistently cheese such a thing. But its obviously not something the designers ever seemed to think they had to consider.
Have you ever climbed on something where you couldn't pause for a moment to compose yourself? The rules still utilize basic English and common sense. If you couldn't grab onto something and hang there, you wouldn't be able to climb in the first place. And yes, switching to a different kind of movement isn't stopping. But there's nothing in the rules that says switching from walking to climbing takes up any movement (or action, object interaction, etc), so you could reasonably assume it is free, just like dropping prone. So: run up wall 40 ft, switch to climb/"go prone" along side of wall, cling to wall. All allowable via the rules, though a lot of that is DM fiat (I'd say that you'd need to climb at least 5ft to be able to hold onto the wall at the end of your turn, and you'd need both hands free, and depending on surface, probably an Athletics check).
I've seen videos of people doing such things with parkour training, which is what Im guessing the unarmored movement is kind of working on. Like how a trained, fit person can run along a wall for a little way, but not run up a wall for 2 stories (or technically infinite heights for a level 9+ monk).
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Refer back to my switching between walking speed and climbing speed points.
I think we are agreed that a monk can attempt to switch to climbing from walking, assuming they are meant to run up walls vertically in the first place.
As for requiring both hands once they have switched to climbing, I can easily imagine someone who is fit enough to do that hanging by one hand and shooting of a hand crossbow or throwing a dart.
Your whole argument has been about the word "along" implying "horizontal". However, per Spider Climb, "across" implies "horizontal". A little bit of inference goes a long way here. If the word choice is so important, then why use two different prepositions here?
Across can just mean travel across a plane, regardless of orientation. But it is definitely used to imply horizontal movement where up/down is specified in spider climb.
That doesn't mean Along is omni-directional. If anything, across and along could be synonymous to the designers where they are used in these rules' text, as in traveling across a plain in a purely horizontal sense.
To me, this shows that "along" means "in any direction", aka if Spider Climb said "along" then it would mean the exact same thing as its current language. If "along" truly meant "horizontal", then Spider Climb would read "up, down, and along vertical surfaces".
The problem with this is that if they were really thinking of if "along" really means "any direction" because of the language in Spider Climb... why would they use "up, down, and across" for spider climb?
More likely, they were not comparing Spider Climb and the monk's unarmed movement when designing them because they do not do the same thing (as in one lets you run any which way on walls, and one just lets you run "along" a wall like a parkour runner).
Or possibly, different design team members were over monk abilities and spells, so they were not coordinating that language that incredibly carefully. If there were some clearly unintended consequence like a powerful combat advantage, they probably would have addressed it with everything else that was addressed in the errata. But if monks could theoretically simulate levitation for free, its really more of a thing for a DM to deal with.
Let me interject here. I actually gave you the definition of along. And I can easily explain the difference in language in spider climb and what it means. The ability of the monk is basically to move in more or less a straight line. That line does not have to be horizontal but it does have to be primarily one direction. This is supported not only by the definition but by the synonyms of the word along.
However. Spider climb is very different and uses across because the reality of that power is you can move any number of directions within your turn on any surface you can put your feet upon. Including walking upside down on the ceiling.
This means that the wording of spider climb is not simply a direct interchangble correlation to the writers. Each phrasing has a purpose. The monk can use their ability and their momentum to travel entirely one direction regardless of what that direction is. spider climb has completely free ability to move and no stipulation about ending their movement on that surface having consequences.
I also want to point out that falling would not in fact matter to a monk under most circumstances of wall running if they could not run up surfaces because of their other class abilities (slow fall) to break their fall because they'd very rarely be able to get into any position where falls would have consequences (aside the occasional chasm because pit traps usually aren't going to be wide enough to matter and most chasms often don't have walls for you to run across to bridge them.) However. Running 40 or 50 feet up a wall or more still has consequences if you don't have the distance to make it all the way up that surface that your ascending via this ability. So arguably this was actually something that was considered and is already taken care of by the synergies of the monks abilities as an intended way to potentially use the monks abilities (opportunities created by the DM not withstanding).
edit: If we want to talk about a way this ability was likely never intended to be used then we can look at something that is in many monk/kung fu movies. And that is the ability of air stepping which is related to and has a more real correlation in what we did get. 5e Monks do not have the ability to walk on air as if it were the ground or run across flimsy tree branches like flat ground like a Shaw Brothers or John Woo movie (I believe those are the two I remember having stuff like that).
Honestly, I would look to JC's tweet about a monk running on water for precedent regarding running up walls.
The monk's Unarmored Movement feature lets you move across liquids, but it doesn't give you the ability to stop on a liquid surface without sinking.
In this vein, a Monk who ends his turn whilst running on water will be swimming on their next turn ergo a monk who ends their turn whilst running up a wall will need to transition to climbing or start falling.
I understand the disagreements, though. It's weird to think that ending your turn ends your movement since everything happens more or less simultaneously. I see no reason why a DM couldn't rule that if you end your turn running on water, or up a wall, that you can't begin your next turn still doing the same. It's like you never actually stopped.
Honestly, I would look to JC's tweet about a monk running on water for precedent regarding running up walls.
The monk's Unarmored Movement feature lets you move across liquids, but it doesn't give you the ability to stop on a liquid surface without sinking.
In this vein, a Monk who ends his turn whilst running on water will be swimming on their next turn ergo a monk who ends their turn whilst running up a wall will need to transition to climbing or start falling.
I understand the disagreements, though. It's weird to think that ending your turn ends your movement since everything happens more or less simultaneously. I see no reason why a DM couldn't rule that if you end your turn running on water, or up a wall, that you can't begin your next turn still doing the same. It's like you never actually stopped.
You reminded me of another rule that leans into this as well. It's not strictly monk. But it's has to do with Flight. There are lots of things that if they can't maintain hover or have some reason why they continue to fly at the end of the round (such as a dedicated fly speed or a hover ability that shows up in some newer stat blocks and abilities) then they actually plummet when their turn ends. Many Temporary single turn flight abilities are like this.
"Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell." This is page 191 of the PHB.
I think this might be fitting to the whole thing because it does suggest that if a monk can find something to grab onto they may not fall. But purely the movement if they do not land somewhere that they can stay on either by reaching level ground or something suitable for climbing/hanging on.
So I decided to do some weird math if you will. Someone was saying that Monk was not versatile because it was weaker than fighter in basically everything unless you spent ki and if you spent ki you only "caught up" to fighter temporarily. Or something to that extent so I decided to test it.
Fighter vs Monk, here are some of the rules. First I am comparing level 5 vs level 5 because I feel this is the level most have agreed you will probably play at and both classes are considered good. I am going to be using "battle master" fighter vs "Open Hand" monk as both of these subclasses I would generally refer to as the "Basic subclass" obviously a lot is going to change.
For giggles I decided to make BOTH the same race AND same stat line, which means skills will also end up being the same. Stat Line is 12 strength, 18 dex (after ASI from level 4), 14 con, 8 int, 16 wisdom, 8 charisma.
Fighting style and equipment for fighter is dueling, with a rapier, shield and leather armor (this is to avoid the disadvantage on stealth just in-case you wanted to use that skill).
For Maneuvers I picked what I felt were "standard choices" or Parry, Percision attack and Trip attack. For 1 offensive option, 1 defensive option and 1 opponent control option, though that last one (trip attack) is the most flexible. With 4 Supperiority dice and an action surge that recover on a short rest the fighter has 5 uses of his short rest abilities for offense, defense and battlefield control. Meanwhile the Monk with 5 ki also has 5 uses per short rest of his offense, defensive and battlefield control abilities.
Fighter By default has 18 AC vs 17 AC from Monk. He also has 6 more health and the ability to recover an average of 10.5 health once per short rest giving him noticeable more effective health without ability usage. Offensively the fighter deals 1d8+6 per hit of his rapier and can attack 2 times without expending abilities. Meanwhile the Monk can attack 3 times dealing 1d8+4 on the first 2 attacks and 1d6+4 on the third attack without expending abilities. This means on average the monk will do more damage without using ki than the fighter will do without using any of his resources (average damage for Monk assuming 60% hit chance = 14.7 vs fighter = 12.6).
So without resource expenditure it looks like Monk has more mobility and more damage while the fighter has better survivability.
To test versatility I am going to check what each can be good at with resource usage. Assuming they both need to focus on defense and expend their resources as such, the monk can dodge 5 times per short rest. Disadvantage on attack has been averaged to be about -5. So this is an effective +5 to the monk's AC giving him effectively 21 AC. However this costs the monk it's bonus action causing damage to fall to an average of 10.2 vs the fighter's 12.6. Meanwhile the fighter can also use his action surge to dodge, and can use his superiority die to parry. If he does he loses his reaction for opportunity attacks which can allow the monk to catch back up in damage and surpass if enemies try to move past, or because enemies stay still will allow him to gain greater battlefield control. The Parry will block an average of 8.5 points of damage per parry. Ultimately which is better will depend on the creature or creatures that are attacking, ultimately I would say this brings monk into parity with the fighter if they both used their abilities defensively, because dodge is better than parry, but the greater starting health and second wind helps make up for the 4 rounds and it will be largely dependent on the creatures being fought.
Damage with resources. The Monk can Flurry of Blows 5 times. If they do, assuming an opponent with 16 AC, their damage will average 19.2 per round. Meanwhile the fighter using Action surge on one turn and trip attack 4 times allowing the fighter to do an extra 8.5 damage on 4 of the attacks that hit bringing it's damage to 19.2 per round as well Once again giving the monk and fighter the same amount of damage on average. In this case the Fighter will still be significantly tougher, in addition opportunity attacks from the fighter will do 2 extra damage per hit thanks to dueling over the 2 handed staff from the monk, however thanks to open Hand ability from the monk's subclass these flurry of blows will also add additional battlefield control by causing targets to trip or pushing them back or making them lose their reaction without any additional expenditure of ki. Meanwhile the fighter gains the option to only do 1 of these and is limited by the size of the creature. Both monk with focus attack and fighter with precision attack can also turn some misses into hits.
In addition to this monk still has access to Stunning strike as an option for battlefield control.
In conclusion, both fighter and monk are highly versatile when built with Dex and wisdom. They can share the same skills and tools. Their damage can both be on par with one another though the fighter has to try harder to keep up with damage of the monk rather than the other way around. Meanwhile, the monk has to struggle to keep up with the health and toughness of the fighter. In all cases the monk has the advantage of more control options and more mobility. Meanwhile the fighter has better ranged combat capabilities, being able to trip attack from range is highly valuable.
Again this is with the assumptions of the same stats and thus some of the same skills and with no feat selection from the fighter and at level 5. As levels increase I am sure this changes drastically. Especially at level 11 when the fighter gets an additional attack, but I think it is safe to say the pre-level 11 the monk is the more well rounded Dex/wis martial build.
So I decided to do some weird math if you will. Someone was saying that Monk was not versatile because it was weaker than fighter in basically everything unless you spent ki and if you spent ki you only "caught up" to fighter temporarily. Or something to that extent so I decided to test it.
Fighter vs Monk, here are some of the rules. First I am comparing level 5 vs level 5 because I feel this is the level most have agreed you will probably play at and both classes are considered good. I am going to be using "battle master" fighter vs "Open Hand" monk as both of these subclasses I would generally refer to as the "Basic subclass" obviously a lot is going to change.
For giggles I decided to make BOTH the same race AND same stat line, which means skills will also end up being the same. Stat Line is 12 strength, 18 dex (after ASI from level 4), 14 con, 8 int, 16 wisdom, 8 charisma.
Fighting style and equipment for fighter is dueling, with a rapier, shield and leather armor (this is to avoid the disadvantage on stealth just in-case you wanted to use that skill).
For Maneuvers I picked what I felt were "standard choices" or Parry, Percision attack and Trip attack. For 1 offensive option, 1 defensive option and 1 opponent control option, though that last one (trip attack) is the most flexible. With 4 Supperiority dice and an action surge that recover on a short rest the fighter has 5 uses of his short rest abilities for offense, defense and battlefield control. Meanwhile the Monk with 5 ki also has 5 uses per short rest of his offense, defensive and battlefield control abilities.
Fighter By default has 18 AC vs 17 AC from Monk. He also has 6 more health and the ability to recover an average of 10.5 health once per short rest giving him noticeable more effective health without ability usage. Offensively the fighter deals 1d8+6 per hit of his rapier and can attack 2 times without expending abilities. Meanwhile the Monk can attack 3 times dealing 1d8+4 on the first 2 attacks and 1d6+4 on the third attack without expending abilities. This means on average the monk will do more damage without using ki than the fighter will do without using any of his resources (average damage for Monk assuming 60% hit chance = 14.7 vs fighter = 12.6).
So without resource expenditure it looks like Monk has more mobility and more damage while the fighter has better survivability.
To test versatility I am going to check what each can be good at with resource usage. Assuming they both need to focus on defense and expend their resources as such, the monk can dodge 5 times per short rest. Disadvantage on attack has been averaged to be about -5. So this is an effective +5 to the monk's AC giving him effectively 21 AC. However this costs the monk it's bonus action causing damage to fall to an average of 10.2 vs the fighter's 12.6. Meanwhile the fighter can also use his action surge to dodge, and can use his superiority die to parry. If he does he loses his reaction for opportunity attacks which can allow the monk to catch back up in damage and surpass if enemies try to move past, or because enemies stay still will allow him to gain greater battlefield control. The Parry will block an average of 8.5 points of damage per parry. Ultimately which is better will depend on the creature or creatures that are attacking, ultimately I would say this brings monk into parity with the fighter if they both used their abilities defensively, because dodge is better than parry, but the greater starting health and second wind helps make up for the 4 rounds and it will be largely dependent on the creatures being fought.
Damage with resources. The Monk can Flurry of Blows 5 times. If they do, assuming an opponent with 16 AC, their damage will average 19.2 per round. Meanwhile the fighter using Action surge on one turn and trip attack 4 times allowing the fighter to do an extra 8.5 damage on 4 of the attacks that hit bringing it's damage to 19.2 per round as well Once again giving the monk and fighter the same amount of damage on average. In this case the Fighter will still be significantly tougher, in addition opportunity attacks from the fighter will do 2 extra damage per hit thanks to dueling over the 2 handed staff from the monk, however thanks to open Hand ability from the monk's subclass these flurry of blows will also add additional battlefield control by causing targets to trip or pushing them back or making them lose their reaction without any additional expenditure of ki. Meanwhile the fighter gains the option to only do 1 of these and is limited by the size of the creature. Both monk with focus attack and fighter with precision attack can also turn some misses into hits.
In addition to this monk still has access to Stunning strike as an option for battlefield control.
In conclusion, both fighter and monk are highly versatile when built with Dex and wisdom. They can share the same skills and tools. Their damage can both be on par with one another though the fighter has to try harder to keep up with damage of the monk rather than the other way around. Meanwhile, the monk has to struggle to keep up with the health and toughness of the fighter. In all cases the monk has the advantage of more control options and more mobility. Meanwhile the fighter has better ranged combat capabilities, being able to trip attack from range is highly valuable.
Again this is with the assumptions of the same stats and thus some of the same skills and with no feat selection from the fighter and at level 5. As levels increase I am sure this changes drastically. Especially at level 11 when the fighter gets an additional attack, but I think it is safe to say the pre-level 11 the monk is the more well rounded Dex/wis martial build.
An excellent study of the 5th level monk. The only problem I see with the monk at that level is a practical system for disengaging from the enemy. Since the monk is a class with few hit points, like the rogue, he should attack and move, so as to exploit his strong mobility. Unfortunately the only ability that the monk can use is "step of the wind" that costs 1 ki points plus a bonus action. So there are 4 options. 1) you stay there to fight, you don't exploit your speed and you don't care that you are the one with less hit points in melee and that any enemy with a little int would take aim being the easiest prey. 2) Every turn or when you feel you are being targeted use "Step of the wind" using 1 point ki, this is to get away wasting a chance to make 1 or 2 attacks. 3) Move away by taking one or more attacks of opportunity. 4) Take the feat "Mobile" or "Crusher". This is not such a big problem if you play carefully, but it is a bit annoying for those who don't know how to play with the monk.
The monk actually does a lot of damage at 5th level, we can say that it is the strong level of the monk, unfortunately from 11-15th level the monk is essentially outclassed by all other classes and this does not improve in later levels.
Another problem with the monk are his abilities, features focused only on him and not for the group, providing little opportunity for the master to create a situation where the monk can shine. The master will never make a trap where everyone falls into the void, because the only one to survive will be the monk with "slow fall" and if there is a spellcaster the monk's power would not be needed. This is a power for solo actions. The same can be said for "reflect missiles", no enemy would waste a ranged attack on a monk so the power is there but never used. The same goes for "Quickened Healing", "Stillness of Mind", (Useful for him but not for the group) etc...
If you want Disengage on a stick, Goblins have it as a Bonus Action built in, no ki cost at all. You could also play an Eladrin or Shadar-Kai for racial Misty Step, and then there's Tasha's Custom Lineage, where you can spend your racial feat on things like Fey Touched (for Misty Step) or Mobile (so you automatically Disengage from anything you make a melee attack against). Monk subclass also matters; a Shadow Monk who's taken a 1-dip into Fighter can have Blindsight+Darkness, which is like always-on Disengage but better against most enemies.
Along those same lines, drunken master flurry of blows also allows disengage as does way of the open hand. Pushing an enemy back means you get to move as does just taking away their reaction. The second one can be done without a save. Also I think some people need to remember that a d8 is standard for classes. There are only 2 classes that get a d6 and only 3 that get a d10 and 1 that gets a d12. That means there are only 4 classes that get more than a monk. All melee mind you, but still Bards, Rogues, Hex warlocks they all get into melee as well and all have d8's. Mind you the rogue also has one of the cheapest and easiest ways to disengage and bards and warlocks have spells but still. Taking a hit from time to time is ok. You just have to know when to use your defensive abilities when to get out of the way and when to go ham on damage.
As far as level 11 goes. If I could figure out what feats/ASI's the fighter would take at 6 and 8 I would. Thinking maybe piercer feat + Another dex +1 feat so they would both be at 20 and to emphasis the fighers use of rapier and bow.
Along those same lines, drunken master flurry of blows also allows disengage as does way of the open hand. Pushing an enemy back means you get to move as does just taking away their reaction. The second one can be done without a save. Also I think some people need to remember that a d8 is standard for classes. There are only 2 classes that get a d6 and only 3 that get a d10 and 1 that gets a d12. That means there are only 4 classes that get more than a monk. All melee mind you, but still Bards, Rogues, Hex warlocks they all get into melee as well and all have d8's. Mind you the rogue also has one of the cheapest and easiest ways to disengage and bards and warlocks have spells but still. Taking a hit from time to time is ok. You just have to know when to use your defensive abilities when to get out of the way and when to go ham on damage.
As far as level 11 goes. If I could figure out what feats/ASI's the fighter would take at 6 and 8 I would. Thinking maybe piercer feat + Another dex +1 feat so they would both be at 20 and to emphasis the fighers use of rapier and bow.
What kind of fighter did you have in mind? Your original analysis was very weird, in terms of assuming things like statline (you punished both builds with a worse statline than point buy would afford them). But if you want to get serious about comparing a Melee Fighter to an Open Hand Monk, you need to swap the Fighter over to Polearms (a dex-based Fighter is going to prefer to lean into ranged). Assuming a very neutral build of baseline S16 C16, the 3 ASIs to assume at level 11 are GWM, PAM, and +2S. Bear in mind that accurate Battle Master math is not for the faint of heart: you need to explicitly state hopefully reasonable assumptions for which rolls have you use Precise Attack and which rolls have you use Trip or Menacing, especially since you also need to account for Trip getting through and generating advantage on later strikes, in the same way you need to account for it on Stunning Strike. Certainly one assumption you can make for this build (which when going nova makes 8 attacks but only has 5 maneuver dice) is Trip/Menacing on a die roll of 20 and Precise on a die roll of 9-19, which statistically speaking has a very good chance of spending all 5 dice in a helpful way.
That was point buy, with wood elf race first the points were 12 strength, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 15 wis, 8 cha +2 to dex +1 to wis from race +2 to dex from ASI. Second I kept them both the same so no arguments could be made about out of combat skills or roles in the party this was done because of the initial claim of basically "Anything monk can do fighter can do better without resource use". And third, if both can achieve advantage from either tripping (trip attack or open hand's trip effect) or Stunning it is largely irrelevant because it is something you can add to both so it doesn't change their comparison really, and I didn't want to make it that complicated.
Along those same lines, drunken master flurry of blows also allows disengage as does way of the open hand. Pushing an enemy back means you get to move as does just taking away their reaction. The second one can be done without a save. Also I think some people need to remember that a d8 is standard for classes. There are only 2 classes that get a d6 and only 3 that get a d10 and 1 that gets a d12. That means there are only 4 classes that get more than a monk. All melee mind you, but still Bards, Rogues, Hex warlocks they all get into melee as well and all have d8's. Mind you the rogue also has one of the cheapest and easiest ways to disengage and bards and warlocks have spells but still. Taking a hit from time to time is ok. You just have to know when to use your defensive abilities when to get out of the way and when to go ham on damage.
As far as level 11 goes. If I could figure out what feats/ASI's the fighter would take at 6 and 8 I would. Thinking maybe piercer feat + Another dex +1 feat so they would both be at 20 and to emphasis the fighers use of rapier and bow.
What kind of fighter did you have in mind? Your original analysis was very weird, in terms of assuming things like statline (you punished both builds with a worse statline than point buy would afford them). But if you want to get serious about comparing a Melee Fighter to an Open Hand Monk, you need to swap the Fighter over to Polearms (a dex-based Fighter is going to prefer to lean into ranged). Assuming a very neutral build of baseline S16 C16, the 3 ASIs to assume at level 11 are GWM, PAM, and +2S. Bear in mind that accurate Battle Master math is not for the faint of heart: you need to explicitly state hopefully reasonable assumptions for which rolls have you use Precise Attack and which rolls have you use Trip or Menacing, especially since you also need to account for Trip getting through and generating advantage on later strikes, in the same way you need to account for it on Stunning Strike. Certainly one assumption you can make for this build (which when going nova makes 8 attacks but only has 5 maneuver dice) is Trip/Menacing on a die roll of 20 and Precise on a die roll of 9-19, which statistically speaking has a very good chance of spending all 5 dice in a helpful way.
Right, but this would waste the bonus attack or the flurry of blows, thus decreasing the number of attacks per turn and the damage I can do to opponents. Unfortunately it is not like the rogue who does not need his bonus action to attack because he only needs to attack once to make a sneak attack that does a lot of damage.
I'd rather go human variant with the crusher feat. STR 8/ DEX 15/ CON 13/ INT 10/WIS 15/CHA10
Crusher +1 in CON and variant human +1 in DEX and WIS. Result:
STR 8/ DEX 16/ CON 14/ INT 10/WIS 16/CHA10
For saving throws and skills it is better to drop strength instead of int and charisma. The only drawback to this option is darkvision.
This is the most solid solution for a 1st level monk. (This is from my point of view)
The monk is definitely playable, but the way to use it is not obvious, if not there would not be so many complaints. What I mean is that a class should be stable regardless of race or subclass and unfortunately the monk needs subclasses or racial powers to be effective.
I have to remember that the monk is the only class that does not have ranged weapons as monk weapons. Corrected later, but not completely since the darts are many and the skill "Dedicated Weapon" works only on one weapon. The main problem is that the monk is a class full of restrictions. His abilities don't work if he's using armor, the only weapons with damage that scales are simple weapons and only melee weapons. it's one of the most MAD classes in the game with the least amount of "Ability Score Improvement". I repeat it's a playable class, but it's like playing in hardcore verion compared to playing with a Barbarian. One last detail is that what makes other classes powerplayers are feats, there just aren't any good feats for the monk and even if there were there aren't that many chances to get any since it's MAD class.
Treantmonk's old biases aside, there's nothing wrong with the monk or ranger classes. Power games don't like them because they can't put up the ludicrously high numbers to down the Tarrasque in one round, is all.
I think it is mostly old biases. Monks are somewhat weak compared to other classes, but that does not mean they are not fun or competitive or that you should play them. You can do a lot worse than a Kensei or Shadow monk and you can even have a fun time while doing worse.
I think the power gamers response to Rager is more stereotype than actual power. Since Tasha's - Ranger, with the right subclass, is probably the strongest non full-caster in the game.
Any class can be fun, yes. But its not power gaming to recognize that the base damage those two classes do doesn't really change much at all between levels 5 and 20.
They can get better with feats, and they get some other interesting things that do not immediately translate over to damage. And newer subclasses certainly help them be stronger. Its not like they are totally irredeemable or unplayable.
But other martial characters get fun things as they progress and improve at the whole combat thing their entire class archetypes are based around. So it seems like there was more fun to be had on the table that was left out.
Any class can be fun, yes. But its not power gaming to recognize that the base damage those two classes do doesn't really change much at all between levels 5 and 20.
This isn't true at all for monks. You're sorta correct in that in 1 round of combat the damage doesn't really change a ton. But having access to an ever increasing supply of ki does increase damage a ton over time. This is especially true with the additions of Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused Aim. Those two abilities combine and synergize very well and can lead to good consistent damage.
So, I finally decided on the "how" I would continue with the theoretical fighter build above and the open hand monk. Again, these choices are because I am trying to make the fighter able to do the out of combat stuff that the monk can do. The biggest issue at level 11 for the fighter is going to be the running across walls and water trick. Basically the monk can reach places other classes can't with minimal to no resource use. The closest thing I get to this on a fighter is the athlete feat, with that taken I also take the piercer feat to bring the dex to 20 at level 8 and in doing so making both the rapier and the bow slightly better. Meanwhile at level 8 for monk once again we take a +2 to dexterity and no feats. This is again because monks are very MAD and getting that dex as high as possible is the best thing for us. This does mean that outside of combat the monk can still get to areas the fighter can't without going something like psi fighter or eldritch knight, but using either of those means the fighter can no longer serve as the groups survival/perception or insight individual while the monk still can. This said, the fighter can still get to areas the rest of the party can not get to without utilizing resources so he may still perform a similar role outside of combat.
Speaking of combat let's look at their offenses now. With no resource uses they both can now attack 3 times, and the monk's martial arts die has been improved to a D8. However, the 3 attacks from fighter still have dueling on them meaning each one will do 2 damage more per hit, in addition the fighter can re-roll the lower rolls of his damage dice giving him an average of 3 more damage per hit over the monk as long as neither of them are spending resources.
Defensively if we are not utilizing any of the monk's ki or any of the fighter's optional features such as action surge or battle maneuvers this becomes a bit more interesting at level 11. The monk has gained several new defensive abilities from levels 6-11. The first is wholeness of body, at level 11 giving him an extra 33 health once per long rest as an action. Meanwhile the fighter is now 12 health higher baseline and his second wind now heals 16.5 on average. This means without a short rest the monk actually has more health by around 4.5. After 1 short rest though the fighter gets more out of healing from his hit dice and the reset second wind. In addition to this though the monk has also gained evasion protecting against the most common attack save dexterity, stillness of mind helping to protect against some charm and fear effects, purity of body making him immune to the most common types of constitution saves (still no protection against necrotic and cold based con saves) and finally tranquility which may protect him on the first round of combat meanwhile the fighter has gained indomitable allowing for a reroll on a failed save. The fighter does still have 1 AC on the monk here as well. Ultimately however, I do believe I have to give this one a tie simply thanks to evasion, and immunity to poison likely reducing the overall damage the monk takes and thanks to wholeness of body helping to catch up a little in the health department over the period of a day, but the higher AC and still higher health and higher con save along with indomitable still helps the fighter keep pace.
When adding in resources this gets a little trickier. The monk now has 11 ki per short rest, while the fighter has 1 action surge and 5 battle maneuvers per short rest. The additional maneuvers I picked were to somewhat match what the open hand monk did, so I gained pushing attack, also gaining feint attack to provide something to do with the bonus action for now. Goading attack, to target the third save, and bait and switch to add some maneuverability. The trick here is that the battle master can burn a lot of their abilities all at once for a monster turn if they want to. And damage now is still slightly better than damage later. Another factor at this point is it is highly unlikely that you will more than 6 rounds of combat between each short rest (at least in my games or if going by the DMG recommendation of 2 fights per short rest and 2 short rest per adventure day). Also all of the battle master's maneuvers are going to have higher DC's for beating them. However, this is less of a problem than some may think. Because the monk has extra Ki he can force 2 saves per turn, one from open hand's flurry of blows and the other from stunning strike. The extra chance to fail the save can typically make up for the fact that save is easier to make.
So given the difficulties that I have laid out I am first going to assume that the monk will use flurry of blows on all 6 of his rounds of combat with 2 to 3 stunning strikes interspersed among them as well as a point on focused strike to hit from time to time. Assuming a 70% chance to hit thanks to focused strike with 4 attacks at 1d8+5 thanks to flurry of blows the damage is 26.6 per round (I am not assuming that the player will use focused strike on all of his attacks, but 1 ki when you roll a 7 instead of a 9 can turn a miss into a hit, more than 1 ki is not worth so if you roll a 6 or lower, probably not worth trying to pump it unless you know the AC is under 18). Meanwhile the fighter utilizing his action surge and all 5 of his battle maneuvers on trip attack (allowing him to match the advantage granted by the monk's open hand trip and/or stunning) the fighter ends up with damage averaging 30.75. This puts the fighter a significant amount more ahead on damage with resources used. As for control the higher save DC of the fighters maneuvers as well as the ability to target wisdom in addition to strength and dexterity instead of targeting con makes up for the extra instances the monk is currently putting out at this level. At level 12 just one level from here, the monks bump to wisdom will bring the pair into equality with AC and will help the monk's Spell DC just enough to make the extra instances mean there is likely more stuns and trips and advantages given to the party by the monk than by the fighter, however this is lessoned by the fighter gaining another feat at 12 which it can use on crossbow expert or shield master to either deal even more damage and more damage at range or surpass the monk defensively again thanks to also getting the benefits of an evasion like ability. The fighter is also capable of this from range should he desire (though damage will be 2 less per hit or about 3.3 less overall).
Of course the monk is more maneuverable at this point with a movement speed of 55 feet (as a wood elf) compared to the fighter's 35 feat (as a wood elf). It is less meaningful when the fighter can just shoot though unfortunately.
Defensively we can talk about the fighter's ability to parry vs the monk's dodge, but at this point the monk is extremely dependent on flurry of blows to deal enough damage. If they do spend the turn dodging it should really only be because they could not reach the target to flurry of blows and they should probably be using some throwing weapons to still do "ping damage". Ultimately at this point the defenses added by dodge is less important part of the monk's job especially with all the bonuses to defense over the last 6 levels.
So in conclusion, ya for the most part the monk falls off hard at level 11, though it will pick up more as a support roll with stunning strikes at level 12 when it's save dc goes up and so does it's AC. Unfortunately it does not see a boost to it's damage outside of enemies failing their stunning strike or trip saves (Which they will do) until level 17 and that is a minor boost of an average of 1 damage per landed attack or the quivering palm technique (which is huge).
Based on this and the look at level 5, things do not look great for monk. Level 5 fighter and monk were versatile and about even. At level 11 the fighter is now ahead in damage, even in defenses and really only has 1 out of combat trick that it can't do by comparison to the monk. it's saves are harder even though it forces less of them. It can target better saves and its health good constitution save, high dex and wisdom + indomitable make up for it's lack of immunities. At higher levels if the phrase was anything a monk can do a fighter can do better, the answer is just about ya.
Edit: I do want to note that my numbers for the monk compared to the fighter may be a bit off. Mostly because, in re-reading the open hand monk, there is the realization that you can already make them attempt to save against trip twice per attack if you can hit with both of your unarmed strikes. The chances of hitting with both against an opponent with 17 AC is only about 42.25% unless you utilize focus strike then it bumps to about 55%. Combine this with a stunning strike and you may actually have a higher chance of landing an effect and greater chance of rolling attacks and giving your teams mates better attack rolls per round. Not much higher but an extra 5% more chance to hit over the fighter brings the monk's damage up to 28.5 and that isn't counting the extra chance to hit allies are possibly getting. Is it enough? probably not. But I did want to add this disclaimer.
Any class can be fun, yes. But its not power gaming to recognize that the base damage those two classes do doesn't really change much at all between levels 5 and 20.
This isn't true at all for monks. You're sorta correct in that in 1 round of combat the damage doesn't really change a ton. But having access to an ever increasing supply of ki does increase damage a ton over time. This is especially true with the additions of Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused Aim. Those two abilities combine and synergize very well and can lead to good consistent damage.
I was just assuming flurry of blows is constantly going after 5. Sure, they get to use it more often, but ki is still a finite resource and now there are new ways to burn through it.
I think ki-fuled attack and focused aim are overhyped. Not only do they eat up the same resource the monk needs for everything else, but it can do so even less efficiently.
Ki-fueled attack is really only useful if you have a good enough weapon to be worth while. Just switching out a free d6 kick for a d8 quarterstaff whack does no favors.
Focused aim really only becomes worthwhile once the monk metagames to realize what the enemy AC is. And its a narrow range to actually use the ability after that, meaning if one wants to proc ki-fueld attack with it, they need to waste their precious ki.
Tasha's added some fun extra buttons to push, but it didn't fundamentally change how strong the monk is.
And neither ability is going to work out consistently
Any class can be fun, yes. But its not power gaming to recognize that the base damage those two classes do doesn't really change much at all between levels 5 and 20.
This isn't true at all for monks. You're sorta correct in that in 1 round of combat the damage doesn't really change a ton. But having access to an ever increasing supply of ki does increase damage a ton over time. This is especially true with the additions of Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused Aim. Those two abilities combine and synergize very well and can lead to good consistent damage.
I was just assuming flurry of blows is constantly going after 5. Sure, they get to use it more often, but ki is still a finite resource and now there are new ways to burn through it.
I think ki-fuled attack and focused aim are overhyped. Not only do they eat up the same resource the monk needs for everything else, but it can do so even less efficiently.
Ki-fueled attack is really only useful if you have a good enough weapon to be worth while. Just switching out a free d6 kick for a d8 quarterstaff whack does no favors.
Focused aim really only becomes worthwhile once the monk metagames to realize what the enemy AC is. And its a narrow range to actually use the ability after that, meaning if one wants to proc ki-fueld attack with it, they need to waste their precious ki.
Tasha's added some fun extra buttons to push, but it didn't fundamentally change how strong the monk is.
And neither ability is going to work out consistently
I agree with "Focused Aim ", but "Ki-Fueled Attack" is there to correct the subclass "way of the 4 elements". This feature also has synergy with "Quickened Healing" as well. It allows the monk to use the bonus attack even if it did not attack in the action or because it performed a spell with his ki powers.
I agree with "Focused Aim ", but "Ki-Fueled Attack" is there to correct the subclass "way of the 4 elements". This feature also has synergy with "Quickened Healing" as well. It allows the monk to use the bonus attack even if it did not attack in the action or because it performed a spell with his ki powers.
Sounds like Kronzy's contradicting their own arguments as usual.
Kronzy loves to argue that a Monk's damage is terrible, and that spending any resource ever is bad, but Focused Aim is spending Ki to turn a miss into a hit, meaning more damage (less damage lost), and a resource well spent, especially if you were going to use Flurry of Blows afterwards no matter what anyway. It's not an either/or decision, especially at higher levels when you've got loads more Ki. One of the things that people who complain about Monk scaling forget is that more Ki means more abilities triggered per combat; with enough Ki you can ensure every attack hits, you can keep an enemy stunned for longer (more damage for everyone) and so-on, while putting out as much impact as possible in as few rounds as possible (efficiency is useless if it requires more rounds of combat than you have).
Ki-Fuelled Attack meanwhile costs nothing; again, if you were going to spend Ki to not miss anyway, then you're gaining the option of a full bonus weapon attack. Ideal on Monk sub-classes with Ki-based actions (like Four Elements), but also for any Monk with a halfways decent weapon, either by damage dice at earlier levels, or magical bonuses at later ones. It's also especially nice for Way of the Kensei, because it means another attack with Sharpen the Blade, or a 3rd longbow attack, plus Kensei has Deft Strike which makes it a very easy bonus attack to trigger (most Monks can only do it with Focused Aim or Stunning Strike).
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I've seen videos of people doing such things with parkour training, which is what Im guessing the unarmored movement is kind of working on. Like how a trained, fit person can run along a wall for a little way, but not run up a wall for 2 stories (or technically infinite heights for a level 9+ monk).
I think we are agreed that a monk can attempt to switch to climbing from walking, assuming they are meant to run up walls vertically in the first place.
As for requiring both hands once they have switched to climbing, I can easily imagine someone who is fit enough to do that hanging by one hand and shooting of a hand crossbow or throwing a dart.
Across can just mean travel across a plane, regardless of orientation. But it is definitely used to imply horizontal movement where up/down is specified in spider climb.
That doesn't mean Along is omni-directional. If anything, across and along could be synonymous to the designers where they are used in these rules' text, as in traveling across a plain in a purely horizontal sense.
The problem with this is that if they were really thinking of if "along" really means "any direction" because of the language in Spider Climb... why would they use "up, down, and across" for spider climb?
More likely, they were not comparing Spider Climb and the monk's unarmed movement when designing them because they do not do the same thing (as in one lets you run any which way on walls, and one just lets you run "along" a wall like a parkour runner).
Or possibly, different design team members were over monk abilities and spells, so they were not coordinating that language that incredibly carefully. If there were some clearly unintended consequence like a powerful combat advantage, they probably would have addressed it with everything else that was addressed in the errata. But if monks could theoretically simulate levitation for free, its really more of a thing for a DM to deal with.
There's dozens of videos of parkour runners going up vertical walls with minimal/no use of hands. From the looks of it, 15-20 foot walls are not out of the realm of possibility for a premier -parkour runner to climb sans hands. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfanXo0UtR0
Now, extrapolate this to a person who can do such magical things as punch ghosts (level six monks), spend six seconds to purge fear from their mind (level seven monks), and potentially teleport from one shadow to another (level six shadow monks). Being able to run vertically 50 feet isn't exactly a stretch in terms of abilities.
Being able to Levitate at will is literally a 9th level Warlock invocation. It's not crazy for a 9th level monk to have a similar ability. It's not OP. It's logical based on what it says on the tin.
Oh, I agree. Im not making any argument from realism. Just the description of the ability.
Also, its strictly better than the Warlock invocation. The invocation still requires your action, while moving doesn't even require your bonus action. Even making a dex/strength check to swap to climbing isn't an action.
Now it still might not be something that could be abused enough to be addressed in errata. Not all GM's play around with elevation that much, and it would take a really specific monk build or abundance of nearby walls in battlefields for a monk to consistently cheese such a thing. But its obviously not something the designers ever seemed to think they had to consider.
Let me interject here. I actually gave you the definition of along. And I can easily explain the difference in language in spider climb and what it means. The ability of the monk is basically to move in more or less a straight line. That line does not have to be horizontal but it does have to be primarily one direction. This is supported not only by the definition but by the synonyms of the word along.
However. Spider climb is very different and uses across because the reality of that power is you can move any number of directions within your turn on any surface you can put your feet upon. Including walking upside down on the ceiling.
This means that the wording of spider climb is not simply a direct interchangble correlation to the writers. Each phrasing has a purpose. The monk can use their ability and their momentum to travel entirely one direction regardless of what that direction is. spider climb has completely free ability to move and no stipulation about ending their movement on that surface having consequences.
I also want to point out that falling would not in fact matter to a monk under most circumstances of wall running if they could not run up surfaces because of their other class abilities (slow fall) to break their fall because they'd very rarely be able to get into any position where falls would have consequences (aside the occasional chasm because pit traps usually aren't going to be wide enough to matter and most chasms often don't have walls for you to run across to bridge them.) However. Running 40 or 50 feet up a wall or more still has consequences if you don't have the distance to make it all the way up that surface that your ascending via this ability. So arguably this was actually something that was considered and is already taken care of by the synergies of the monks abilities as an intended way to potentially use the monks abilities (opportunities created by the DM not withstanding).
edit: If we want to talk about a way this ability was likely never intended to be used then we can look at something that is in many monk/kung fu movies. And that is the ability of air stepping which is related to and has a more real correlation in what we did get. 5e Monks do not have the ability to walk on air as if it were the ground or run across flimsy tree branches like flat ground like a Shaw Brothers or John Woo movie (I believe those are the two I remember having stuff like that).
Honestly, I would look to JC's tweet about a monk running on water for precedent regarding running up walls.
In this vein, a Monk who ends his turn whilst running on water will be swimming on their next turn ergo a monk who ends their turn whilst running up a wall will need to transition to climbing or start falling.
I understand the disagreements, though. It's weird to think that ending your turn ends your movement since everything happens more or less simultaneously. I see no reason why a DM couldn't rule that if you end your turn running on water, or up a wall, that you can't begin your next turn still doing the same. It's like you never actually stopped.
You reminded me of another rule that leans into this as well. It's not strictly monk. But it's has to do with Flight. There are lots of things that if they can't maintain hover or have some reason why they continue to fly at the end of the round (such as a dedicated fly speed or a hover ability that shows up in some newer stat blocks and abilities) then they actually plummet when their turn ends. Many Temporary single turn flight abilities are like this.
"Flying creatures enjoy many benefits of mobility, but they must also deal with the danger of falling. If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell." This is page 191 of the PHB.
I think this might be fitting to the whole thing because it does suggest that if a monk can find something to grab onto they may not fall. But purely the movement if they do not land somewhere that they can stay on either by reaching level ground or something suitable for climbing/hanging on.
So I decided to do some weird math if you will. Someone was saying that Monk was not versatile because it was weaker than fighter in basically everything unless you spent ki and if you spent ki you only "caught up" to fighter temporarily. Or something to that extent so I decided to test it.
Fighter vs Monk, here are some of the rules. First I am comparing level 5 vs level 5 because I feel this is the level most have agreed you will probably play at and both classes are considered good.
I am going to be using "battle master" fighter vs "Open Hand" monk as both of these subclasses I would generally refer to as the "Basic subclass" obviously a lot is going to change.
For giggles I decided to make BOTH the same race AND same stat line, which means skills will also end up being the same. Stat Line is 12 strength, 18 dex (after ASI from level 4), 14 con, 8 int, 16 wisdom, 8 charisma.
Fighting style and equipment for fighter is dueling, with a rapier, shield and leather armor (this is to avoid the disadvantage on stealth just in-case you wanted to use that skill).
For Maneuvers I picked what I felt were "standard choices" or Parry, Percision attack and Trip attack. For 1 offensive option, 1 defensive option and 1 opponent control option, though that last one (trip attack) is the most flexible. With 4 Supperiority dice and an action surge that recover on a short rest the fighter has 5 uses of his short rest abilities for offense, defense and battlefield control. Meanwhile the Monk with 5 ki also has 5 uses per short rest of his offense, defensive and battlefield control abilities.
Fighter By default has 18 AC vs 17 AC from Monk. He also has 6 more health and the ability to recover an average of 10.5 health once per short rest giving him noticeable more effective health without ability usage. Offensively the fighter deals 1d8+6 per hit of his rapier and can attack 2 times without expending abilities. Meanwhile the Monk can attack 3 times dealing 1d8+4 on the first 2 attacks and 1d6+4 on the third attack without expending abilities. This means on average the monk will do more damage without using ki than the fighter will do without using any of his resources (average damage for Monk assuming 60% hit chance = 14.7 vs fighter = 12.6).
So without resource expenditure it looks like Monk has more mobility and more damage while the fighter has better survivability.
To test versatility I am going to check what each can be good at with resource usage. Assuming they both need to focus on defense and expend their resources as such, the monk can dodge 5 times per short rest. Disadvantage on attack has been averaged to be about -5. So this is an effective +5 to the monk's AC giving him effectively 21 AC. However this costs the monk it's bonus action causing damage to fall to an average of 10.2 vs the fighter's 12.6. Meanwhile the fighter can also use his action surge to dodge, and can use his superiority die to parry. If he does he loses his reaction for opportunity attacks which can allow the monk to catch back up in damage and surpass if enemies try to move past, or because enemies stay still will allow him to gain greater battlefield control. The Parry will block an average of 8.5 points of damage per parry. Ultimately which is better will depend on the creature or creatures that are attacking, ultimately I would say this brings monk into parity with the fighter if they both used their abilities defensively, because dodge is better than parry, but the greater starting health and second wind helps make up for the 4 rounds and it will be largely dependent on the creatures being fought.
Damage with resources. The Monk can Flurry of Blows 5 times. If they do, assuming an opponent with 16 AC, their damage will average 19.2 per round. Meanwhile the fighter using Action surge on one turn and trip attack 4 times allowing the fighter to do an extra 8.5 damage on 4 of the attacks that hit bringing it's damage to 19.2 per round as well Once again giving the monk and fighter the same amount of damage on average. In this case the Fighter will still be significantly tougher, in addition opportunity attacks from the fighter will do 2 extra damage per hit thanks to dueling over the 2 handed staff from the monk, however thanks to open Hand ability from the monk's subclass these flurry of blows will also add additional battlefield control by causing targets to trip or pushing them back or making them lose their reaction without any additional expenditure of ki. Meanwhile the fighter gains the option to only do 1 of these and is limited by the size of the creature. Both monk with focus attack and fighter with precision attack can also turn some misses into hits.
In addition to this monk still has access to Stunning strike as an option for battlefield control.
In conclusion, both fighter and monk are highly versatile when built with Dex and wisdom. They can share the same skills and tools. Their damage can both be on par with one another though the fighter has to try harder to keep up with damage of the monk rather than the other way around. Meanwhile, the monk has to struggle to keep up with the health and toughness of the fighter. In all cases the monk has the advantage of more control options and more mobility. Meanwhile the fighter has better ranged combat capabilities, being able to trip attack from range is highly valuable.
Again this is with the assumptions of the same stats and thus some of the same skills and with no feat selection from the fighter and at level 5. As levels increase I am sure this changes drastically. Especially at level 11 when the fighter gets an additional attack, but I think it is safe to say the pre-level 11 the monk is the more well rounded Dex/wis martial build.
An excellent study of the 5th level monk. The only problem I see with the monk at that level is a practical system for disengaging from the enemy. Since the monk is a class with few hit points, like the rogue, he should attack and move, so as to exploit his strong mobility. Unfortunately the only ability that the monk can use is "step of the wind" that costs 1 ki points plus a bonus action. So there are 4 options. 1) you stay there to fight, you don't exploit your speed and you don't care that you are the one with less hit points in melee and that any enemy with a little int would take aim being the easiest prey. 2) Every turn or when you feel you are being targeted use "Step of the wind" using 1 point ki, this is to get away wasting a chance to make 1 or 2 attacks. 3) Move away by taking one or more attacks of opportunity. 4) Take the feat "Mobile" or "Crusher".
This is not such a big problem if you play carefully, but it is a bit annoying for those who don't know how to play with the monk.
The monk actually does a lot of damage at 5th level, we can say that it is the strong level of the monk, unfortunately from 11-15th level the monk is essentially outclassed by all other classes and this does not improve in later levels.
Another problem with the monk are his abilities, features focused only on him and not for the group, providing little opportunity for the master to create a situation where the monk can shine. The master will never make a trap where everyone falls into the void, because the only one to survive will be the monk with "slow fall" and if there is a spellcaster the monk's power would not be needed. This is a power for solo actions. The same can be said for "reflect missiles", no enemy would waste a ranged attack on a monk so the power is there but never used. The same goes for "Quickened Healing", "Stillness of Mind", (Useful for him but not for the group) etc...
If you want Disengage on a stick, Goblins have it as a Bonus Action built in, no ki cost at all. You could also play an Eladrin or Shadar-Kai for racial Misty Step, and then there's Tasha's Custom Lineage, where you can spend your racial feat on things like Fey Touched (for Misty Step) or Mobile (so you automatically Disengage from anything you make a melee attack against). Monk subclass also matters; a Shadow Monk who's taken a 1-dip into Fighter can have Blindsight+Darkness, which is like always-on Disengage but better against most enemies.
Along those same lines, drunken master flurry of blows also allows disengage as does way of the open hand. Pushing an enemy back means you get to move as does just taking away their reaction. The second one can be done without a save. Also I think some people need to remember that a d8 is standard for classes. There are only 2 classes that get a d6 and only 3 that get a d10 and 1 that gets a d12. That means there are only 4 classes that get more than a monk. All melee mind you, but still Bards, Rogues, Hex warlocks they all get into melee as well and all have d8's. Mind you the rogue also has one of the cheapest and easiest ways to disengage and bards and warlocks have spells but still. Taking a hit from time to time is ok. You just have to know when to use your defensive abilities when to get out of the way and when to go ham on damage.
As far as level 11 goes. If I could figure out what feats/ASI's the fighter would take at 6 and 8 I would. Thinking maybe piercer feat + Another dex +1 feat so they would both be at 20 and to emphasis the fighers use of rapier and bow.
What kind of fighter did you have in mind? Your original analysis was very weird, in terms of assuming things like statline (you punished both builds with a worse statline than point buy would afford them). But if you want to get serious about comparing a Melee Fighter to an Open Hand Monk, you need to swap the Fighter over to Polearms (a dex-based Fighter is going to prefer to lean into ranged). Assuming a very neutral build of baseline S16 C16, the 3 ASIs to assume at level 11 are GWM, PAM, and +2S. Bear in mind that accurate Battle Master math is not for the faint of heart: you need to explicitly state hopefully reasonable assumptions for which rolls have you use Precise Attack and which rolls have you use Trip or Menacing, especially since you also need to account for Trip getting through and generating advantage on later strikes, in the same way you need to account for it on Stunning Strike. Certainly one assumption you can make for this build (which when going nova makes 8 attacks but only has 5 maneuver dice) is Trip/Menacing on a die roll of 20 and Precise on a die roll of 9-19, which statistically speaking has a very good chance of spending all 5 dice in a helpful way.
That was point buy, with wood elf race first the points were 12 strength, 14 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 15 wis, 8 cha +2 to dex +1 to wis from race +2 to dex from ASI. Second I kept them both the same so no arguments could be made about out of combat skills or roles in the party this was done because of the initial claim of basically "Anything monk can do fighter can do better without resource use". And third, if both can achieve advantage from either tripping (trip attack or open hand's trip effect) or Stunning it is largely irrelevant because it is something you can add to both so it doesn't change their comparison really, and I didn't want to make it that complicated.
Right, but this would waste the bonus attack or the flurry of blows, thus decreasing the number of attacks per turn and the damage I can do to opponents. Unfortunately it is not like the rogue who does not need his bonus action to attack because he only needs to attack once to make a sneak attack that does a lot of damage.
I'd rather go human variant with the crusher feat. STR 8/ DEX 15/ CON 13/ INT 10/WIS 15/CHA10
Crusher +1 in CON and variant human +1 in DEX and WIS. Result:
STR 8/ DEX 16/ CON 14/ INT 10/WIS 16/CHA10
For saving throws and skills it is better to drop strength instead of int and charisma.
The only drawback to this option is darkvision.
This is the most solid solution for a 1st level monk. (This is from my point of view)
The monk is definitely playable, but the way to use it is not obvious, if not there would not be so many complaints. What I mean is that a class should be stable regardless of race or subclass and unfortunately the monk needs subclasses or racial powers to be effective.
I have to remember that the monk is the only class that does not have ranged weapons as monk weapons. Corrected later, but not completely since the darts are many and the skill "Dedicated Weapon" works only on one weapon. The main problem is that the monk is a class full of restrictions. His abilities don't work if he's using armor, the only weapons with damage that scales are simple weapons and only melee weapons. it's one of the most MAD classes in the game with the least amount of "Ability Score Improvement". I repeat it's a playable class, but it's like playing in hardcore verion compared to playing with a Barbarian. One last detail is that what makes other classes powerplayers are feats, there just aren't any good feats for the monk and even if there were there aren't that many chances to get any since it's MAD class.
I think it is mostly old biases. Monks are somewhat weak compared to other classes, but that does not mean they are not fun or competitive or that you should play them. You can do a lot worse than a Kensei or Shadow monk and you can even have a fun time while doing worse.
I think the power gamers response to Rager is more stereotype than actual power. Since Tasha's - Ranger, with the right subclass, is probably the strongest non full-caster in the game.
Any class can be fun, yes. But its not power gaming to recognize that the base damage those two classes do doesn't really change much at all between levels 5 and 20.
They can get better with feats, and they get some other interesting things that do not immediately translate over to damage. And newer subclasses certainly help them be stronger. Its not like they are totally irredeemable or unplayable.
But other martial characters get fun things as they progress and improve at the whole combat thing their entire class archetypes are based around. So it seems like there was more fun to be had on the table that was left out.
This isn't true at all for monks. You're sorta correct in that in 1 round of combat the damage doesn't really change a ton. But having access to an ever increasing supply of ki does increase damage a ton over time. This is especially true with the additions of Ki-Fueled Attack and Focused Aim. Those two abilities combine and synergize very well and can lead to good consistent damage.
So, I finally decided on the "how" I would continue with the theoretical fighter build above and the open hand monk. Again, these choices are because I am trying to make the fighter able to do the out of combat stuff that the monk can do. The biggest issue at level 11 for the fighter is going to be the running across walls and water trick. Basically the monk can reach places other classes can't with minimal to no resource use. The closest thing I get to this on a fighter is the athlete feat, with that taken I also take the piercer feat to bring the dex to 20 at level 8 and in doing so making both the rapier and the bow slightly better. Meanwhile at level 8 for monk once again we take a +2 to dexterity and no feats. This is again because monks are very MAD and getting that dex as high as possible is the best thing for us. This does mean that outside of combat the monk can still get to areas the fighter can't without going something like psi fighter or eldritch knight, but using either of those means the fighter can no longer serve as the groups survival/perception or insight individual while the monk still can. This said, the fighter can still get to areas the rest of the party can not get to without utilizing resources so he may still perform a similar role outside of combat.
Speaking of combat let's look at their offenses now. With no resource uses they both can now attack 3 times, and the monk's martial arts die has been improved to a D8. However, the 3 attacks from fighter still have dueling on them meaning each one will do 2 damage more per hit, in addition the fighter can re-roll the lower rolls of his damage dice giving him an average of 3 more damage per hit over the monk as long as neither of them are spending resources.
Defensively if we are not utilizing any of the monk's ki or any of the fighter's optional features such as action surge or battle maneuvers this becomes a bit more interesting at level 11. The monk has gained several new defensive abilities from levels 6-11. The first is wholeness of body, at level 11 giving him an extra 33 health once per long rest as an action. Meanwhile the fighter is now 12 health higher baseline and his second wind now heals 16.5 on average. This means without a short rest the monk actually has more health by around 4.5. After 1 short rest though the fighter gets more out of healing from his hit dice and the reset second wind. In addition to this though the monk has also gained evasion protecting against the most common attack save dexterity, stillness of mind helping to protect against some charm and fear effects, purity of body making him immune to the most common types of constitution saves (still no protection against necrotic and cold based con saves) and finally tranquility which may protect him on the first round of combat meanwhile the fighter has gained indomitable allowing for a reroll on a failed save. The fighter does still have 1 AC on the monk here as well. Ultimately however, I do believe I have to give this one a tie simply thanks to evasion, and immunity to poison likely reducing the overall damage the monk takes and thanks to wholeness of body helping to catch up a little in the health department over the period of a day, but the higher AC and still higher health and higher con save along with indomitable still helps the fighter keep pace.
When adding in resources this gets a little trickier. The monk now has 11 ki per short rest, while the fighter has 1 action surge and 5 battle maneuvers per short rest. The additional maneuvers I picked were to somewhat match what the open hand monk did, so I gained pushing attack, also gaining feint attack to provide something to do with the bonus action for now. Goading attack, to target the third save, and bait and switch to add some maneuverability. The trick here is that the battle master can burn a lot of their abilities all at once for a monster turn if they want to. And damage now is still slightly better than damage later. Another factor at this point is it is highly unlikely that you will more than 6 rounds of combat between each short rest (at least in my games or if going by the DMG recommendation of 2 fights per short rest and 2 short rest per adventure day). Also all of the battle master's maneuvers are going to have higher DC's for beating them. However, this is less of a problem than some may think. Because the monk has extra Ki he can force 2 saves per turn, one from open hand's flurry of blows and the other from stunning strike. The extra chance to fail the save can typically make up for the fact that save is easier to make.
So given the difficulties that I have laid out I am first going to assume that the monk will use flurry of blows on all 6 of his rounds of combat with 2 to 3 stunning strikes interspersed among them as well as a point on focused strike to hit from time to time. Assuming a 70% chance to hit thanks to focused strike with 4 attacks at 1d8+5 thanks to flurry of blows the damage is 26.6 per round (I am not assuming that the player will use focused strike on all of his attacks, but 1 ki when you roll a 7 instead of a 9 can turn a miss into a hit, more than 1 ki is not worth so if you roll a 6 or lower, probably not worth trying to pump it unless you know the AC is under 18). Meanwhile the fighter utilizing his action surge and all 5 of his battle maneuvers on trip attack (allowing him to match the advantage granted by the monk's open hand trip and/or stunning) the fighter ends up with damage averaging 30.75. This puts the fighter a significant amount more ahead on damage with resources used. As for control the higher save DC of the fighters maneuvers as well as the ability to target wisdom in addition to strength and dexterity instead of targeting con makes up for the extra instances the monk is currently putting out at this level. At level 12 just one level from here, the monks bump to wisdom will bring the pair into equality with AC and will help the monk's Spell DC just enough to make the extra instances mean there is likely more stuns and trips and advantages given to the party by the monk than by the fighter, however this is lessoned by the fighter gaining another feat at 12 which it can use on crossbow expert or shield master to either deal even more damage and more damage at range or surpass the monk defensively again thanks to also getting the benefits of an evasion like ability. The fighter is also capable of this from range should he desire (though damage will be 2 less per hit or about 3.3 less overall).
Of course the monk is more maneuverable at this point with a movement speed of 55 feet (as a wood elf) compared to the fighter's 35 feat (as a wood elf). It is less meaningful when the fighter can just shoot though unfortunately.
Defensively we can talk about the fighter's ability to parry vs the monk's dodge, but at this point the monk is extremely dependent on flurry of blows to deal enough damage. If they do spend the turn dodging it should really only be because they could not reach the target to flurry of blows and they should probably be using some throwing weapons to still do "ping damage". Ultimately at this point the defenses added by dodge is less important part of the monk's job especially with all the bonuses to defense over the last 6 levels.
So in conclusion, ya for the most part the monk falls off hard at level 11, though it will pick up more as a support roll with stunning strikes at level 12 when it's save dc goes up and so does it's AC. Unfortunately it does not see a boost to it's damage outside of enemies failing their stunning strike or trip saves (Which they will do) until level 17 and that is a minor boost of an average of 1 damage per landed attack or the quivering palm technique (which is huge).
Based on this and the look at level 5, things do not look great for monk. Level 5 fighter and monk were versatile and about even. At level 11 the fighter is now ahead in damage, even in defenses and really only has 1 out of combat trick that it can't do by comparison to the monk. it's saves are harder even though it forces less of them. It can target better saves and its health good constitution save, high dex and wisdom + indomitable make up for it's lack of immunities. At higher levels if the phrase was anything a monk can do a fighter can do better, the answer is just about ya.
Edit: I do want to note that my numbers for the monk compared to the fighter may be a bit off. Mostly because, in re-reading the open hand monk, there is the realization that you can already make them attempt to save against trip twice per attack if you can hit with both of your unarmed strikes. The chances of hitting with both against an opponent with 17 AC is only about 42.25% unless you utilize focus strike then it bumps to about 55%. Combine this with a stunning strike and you may actually have a higher chance of landing an effect and greater chance of rolling attacks and giving your teams mates better attack rolls per round. Not much higher but an extra 5% more chance to hit over the fighter brings the monk's damage up to 28.5 and that isn't counting the extra chance to hit allies are possibly getting. Is it enough? probably not. But I did want to add this disclaimer.
I was just assuming flurry of blows is constantly going after 5. Sure, they get to use it more often, but ki is still a finite resource and now there are new ways to burn through it.
I think ki-fuled attack and focused aim are overhyped. Not only do they eat up the same resource the monk needs for everything else, but it can do so even less efficiently.
Ki-fueled attack is really only useful if you have a good enough weapon to be worth while. Just switching out a free d6 kick for a d8 quarterstaff whack does no favors.
Focused aim really only becomes worthwhile once the monk metagames to realize what the enemy AC is. And its a narrow range to actually use the ability after that, meaning if one wants to proc ki-fueld attack with it, they need to waste their precious ki.
Tasha's added some fun extra buttons to push, but it didn't fundamentally change how strong the monk is.
And neither ability is going to work out consistently
I agree with "Focused Aim ", but "Ki-Fueled Attack" is there to correct the subclass "way of the 4 elements". This feature also has synergy with "Quickened Healing" as well. It allows the monk to use the bonus attack even if it did not attack in the action or because it performed a spell with his ki powers.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/177895/how-do-the-ki-fueled-attack-optional-feature-and-the-martial-arts-feature-differ
Sounds like Kronzy's contradicting their own arguments as usual.
Kronzy loves to argue that a Monk's damage is terrible, and that spending any resource ever is bad, but Focused Aim is spending Ki to turn a miss into a hit, meaning more damage (less damage lost), and a resource well spent, especially if you were going to use Flurry of Blows afterwards no matter what anyway. It's not an either/or decision, especially at higher levels when you've got loads more Ki. One of the things that people who complain about Monk scaling forget is that more Ki means more abilities triggered per combat; with enough Ki you can ensure every attack hits, you can keep an enemy stunned for longer (more damage for everyone) and so-on, while putting out as much impact as possible in as few rounds as possible (efficiency is useless if it requires more rounds of combat than you have).
Ki-Fuelled Attack meanwhile costs nothing; again, if you were going to spend Ki to not miss anyway, then you're gaining the option of a full bonus weapon attack. Ideal on Monk sub-classes with Ki-based actions (like Four Elements), but also for any Monk with a halfways decent weapon, either by damage dice at earlier levels, or magical bonuses at later ones. It's also especially nice for Way of the Kensei, because it means another attack with Sharpen the Blade, or a 3rd longbow attack, plus Kensei has Deft Strike which makes it a very easy bonus attack to trigger (most Monks can only do it with Focused Aim or Stunning Strike).
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