How can an Oath of vengeance Paladin with a one handed weapon, I don't want to use a polearm or double handed weapon, compete with the magic classes in term of damage dealing at high level?
I am now at 5th level and more and more I notice that spells deals lots and lots of damage. I feel like Paladins are dependent on buffs or debuffs the enemies in order to have the same amount of damage specially when we will be at higher levels.
For example, at level 17, a Wizard can use Meteor Swarm and do 20d6 fire damage and 20d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, potentially 240 damage, or half as much damage on a successful one, potentially 120 damage. Yes, lots of monsters have fire resistance, but not all and magic classes have lots of other great spells that are similar.
Comparing that with a Paladin with divine Smite at level 17, he can do a maximum of 1d8 + 5d8 (smite) + 1d8, thanks to the improved Devine smite at level 11 dealing potentially 56 damage. Damage we can do once because of only one 5th speIl slots. I we add the extra attack and everything is perfect we can deal potentially 48 damage (1d8 + 4d8 + 1d8), for a total of a big 104 damage, pretty low comparing to the 240 damage that a Meteor Swarm can do. I don't count the potential if fiend or undead since it depends on the monster.
Yes, I can add strength modifier, the +1 or +2 or +3 of the magic weapon, the bonus of my fighting style which is Dueling and debuffs, but magic classes can do similar things.
I don't want to take the great Weapon Master feat because I played a Martial character based campaign where I was a Human fighter and game after game I had so much issues hitting because of the -5. When I finally was able to hit the +10 to the attack’s damage was overkill or was not worth it because I could have just hit more often and deal more damages than do a big damage once. I just stopped using the feat and we were not high level.
I do understand that we are a team and Martial classes are Tanks and damage dealers and should protect the squishy magic classes, but with Mage Armor + modifiers + magic items, a Wizard can be pretty buff as well. I also understand that it's a social game and we are there to have fun, but since we also want deal big damages to monsters, it's not quite fun when a big attack can do, at best, the same amount of damage that one spell can do at half damage.
At the end the day, I feel like Martial classes can't hold their own against Magic classes in DnD.
Do you have suggestion on how to improve an Oath of vengeance Paladin in order to deal more damage and contribute more to the team?
If you insist on doing sword-n-board vengeance, I think your only option for BIG damage is to multiclass into hexblade after you get to lvl 6 in paladin. If your character's an elf or half-elf, pick up elven accuracy, and when you get to lvl 11 (paladin 6, hexblade 5), pick up eldritch smite.
then, once per short rest, if you crit while under the effects of the curse and vow of enmity, your crits can stack both eldritch and divine smite. When you unlock 5th level spell slots at lvl 9 warlock, your crits can deal 22d8s of damage.
You're level 5. Stop doing flawed napkin math based on level 17 and just have fun. Whatever problems Paladins have, damage output is not one of them.
Save your smites for critical hits (doubles all of the damage dice), undead or fiends, and enemies that absolutely have to die (who get your Vow of Enmity too). Lean into your shield role and protect your allies. Cast Bless and everyone will be happy regardless of your damage output. Use Hunter's Mark to increase your damage with every hit. Grab Shield Master to shove enemies around as a bonus action.
Great Weapon Master is a gold-tier feat, but using it every round is a trap. You're meant to be using it when you have Advantage, which helps negate the penalty to hit. Vow of Enmity actually works well with GWM, but regardless GWM is not necessary to have fun in melee.
If you want to compare melee attacks to a spell casters damage you need to compare it to cantrips, because those are the damaging spells a caster can use that do not use up a limited resource (spellslots).
So for your example a Paly with a longsword at level 1 should do 1d8 + 3 (STR modifier) compared to a Toll the Dead which does 1d8 to 1d12 which is comparable. At level 5 it is still fairly close, a Paladin can now do (1d8 + 3 or 4) x2 compared to a Toll the Dead doing 2d8 to 2d12 But at level 11 the Paladin pulls ahead through Improved Divine Smite. Also note that besides Eldritch Blast most other cantrips only have 1 roll to hit or save so in most cases its all or nothing whereas the Paladin can swing twice to most likely score at least some damage every round.
There are specific classes that fall outside this category, like the Warlock and the Evocation Wizard but generally a martial class will do better damage with their base attack against a casters cantrip. The casters of course make up for this with cool spells that have interesting effects and higher damage but spell slots are a limited resource that a caster needs to carefully manage between long rests whereas a Paladin with no spell slots can still swing for the fences and do decent damage.
First of all, if you have a 5th level spell slot you are way better off using it to cast Holy Weapon on yourself. This compliments your extra attack well and gives you even bigger boost and reason to ask your fellow wizard for a haste buff.
Second of all, comparing it to Meteor Swarm isn't really productive - one, half of the damage is fire which is very commonly resisted. Two, it is reliant on Dex save to do this kind of damage which means that there are monsters/enemies who can take anywhere between 0 and half damage from that (Evasion).
Third - critical strikes. Can't crit with a Meteor Swarm but if you crit with a strike and then decide to pump a 4th level divine smite, you get something like this:
You're level 5. Stop doing flawed napkin math based on level 17 and just have fun. Whatever problems Paladins have, damage output is not one of them.
Save your smites for critical hits (doubles all of the damage dice), undead or fiends, and enemies that absolutely have to die (who get your Vow of Enmity too). Lean into your shield role and protect your allies. Cast Bless and everyone will be happy regardless of your damage output. Use Hunter's Mark to increase your damage with every hit. Grab Shield Master to shove enemies around as a bonus action.
Great Weapon Master is a gold-tier feat, but using it every round is a trap. You're meant to be using it when you have Advantage, which helps negate the penalty to hit. Vow of Enmity actually works well with GWM, but regardless GWM is not necessary to have fun in melee.
I think it's disingenuous to dismiss OP's concerns like that. Damage output normally would not be an issue, if not for the fact that the OP wants neither PAM nor GWM. Unless he's got access to a flame tongue or a sun blade, he's going to do chump change for damage when it's his turn compared to an optimized martial, and he'll have to perform a nova of sorts on his turn to perform on a similar level.
Now, OP is mistaken in comparing martials to casters. Fact is, a caster has to be very picky with the spells they use and when to use them. What's more, damage might not be the correct option, such as how hypnotic pattern may be more helpful over a fireball. Even meteor storm's a faulty comparison-- it's a 9th level spell. That's a once-a-day thing, and that's that, whereas the martial still has their power to dish out turn after turn because that's just how martials do.
However, if we are to work strictly in making the best damage output with a sword-n-board set up, Hexadin does offer a lot. Sorcadin does as well, and arguably better in a couple ways, but that's very item-reliant whereas Hexadin isn't. You can invest all into CHA and still have great saves to serve the party, and with short-rest resources, a nap's all that's needed after doing a crit eldritch+divine smite combo.
And so long as you have a handful of levels in paladin, you still have access to 5th level spells and such albeit dependent on scroll use and dependent on party support to ensure passing the DC to successfully cast them. Still, the option is there.
I think Vengeance was made for a heavy hitting 2h weapon with GWM and possibly PAM. There is nothing wrong with being a sword and board paladin. I just think you won't be able to fully utilize what Vengeance does best by going that route. I would have taken a different paladin subclass, if I wanted to go 1h and shield all the way. But play what you want. I just think you may be trying to fit the square peg into the round hole, to some extent, especially if damage dealing is what you want.
I think 5e is far better balanced by classes, than other versions of DnD. Just by the nature of AOE, full spellcasters will always have more potential damage in total, in a turn. But Vengeance should be able to do exceptional single target damage, when they want to. Yes, I want to do good damage and be a productive party member. I also think, at the end of the day, we win or lose as a team. If I keep the mobs off my more squishy party members, do what damage I can do and the casters do most of the damage...oh well. The party won the encounter. I can still see some nice numbers when the dice gods favor me. :)
As pointed out previously, meteor swarm is a once a day thing, while the paladin will be dealing much more sustainable damage throughout the day. I think that should be factored in you assessment. Many full caster classes are strong not for their damage but utility. In fact, after witnessing the power of Wish in game, meteor swarm is rather subpar tbh.
Oath of vengeance paladins are great, especially if used as a foundation for multi-classing. Are you against multi-classing? If not, have you considered a sword (rapier) and board assassin rogue/oath of vengeance paladin? Those surprise rounds amount to ridiculous amounts of damage! The only issue with this build is having to depend exclusively on stealth to surprise, which can be hard in some situations and can depend largely on your DM's style. This is nothing a dip in sorcerer or bard can't fix, however, as you can get access to great utility spells like invisibility/greater invisibility and Alter Self to surprise your foes. Adding anywhere between 6-10 levels of a full casting class can really transform a melee character despite never achieving those game-altering 9th level spells.
Expanding on the rogue/paladin/sorcerer above, it's not like you'll only shine during surprise rounds. Thanks to haste, blink, mirror image, shield, absorb elements and counterspell, you can be very elusive. This is especially true when you factor the awesome synergy cunning action has with greater invisibility (hide as a bonus action). Furthermore, the sorcerer's metamagic abilities, such as silent spell, allows you to quietly buff yourself just before your assassination attempt. In fact, add the war caster feat and you can cast most spells with nothing more than a thought. You won't lack in damage either with quickened and twin spell which really maximize action economy and increase your damage potential to very respectable levels. I remember assassinating for 100-200 damage easily by assassinating with only two smites (Attack action) and a quickened booming blade. Add poison and/or spells like haste/hunter's mark, which are all fair game, and you can easily increase your damage further without wasting too many resources.
As previously mentioned, whenever the going gets though, I could avoid most damage due to greater invisibility, cunning action stealth, the shield spell, blink and mirror image. Oh and you have great saving throws to boot with aura of defense.
I did a full campaign (lvl 1-20) with a rapier/shield assassin rogue/oath of vengeance paladin/draconic sorcerer; and it was a blast! If you want I could post it?
If there's one thing I learned from playing this build it's that although damage is nice, finding a good balance between damage, utility and defense is better IMO.
You could simply go for a classic multiclass - paladin/sorcerer, and spend a ton of high level slots on smites :) dont have to cast spells to be a sorcerer ;) also adds the benefit of bonus action spellcasting = hold person+two smite attacks per round for total madness
Hello everyone,
How can an Oath of vengeance Paladin with a one handed weapon, I don't want to use a polearm or double handed weapon, compete with the magic classes in term of damage dealing at high level?
I am now at 5th level and more and more I notice that spells deals lots and lots of damage. I feel like Paladins are dependent on buffs or debuffs the enemies in order to have the same amount of damage specially when we will be at higher levels.
For example, at level 17, a Wizard can use Meteor Swarm and do 20d6 fire damage and 20d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed save, potentially 240 damage, or half as much damage on a successful one, potentially 120 damage. Yes, lots of monsters have fire resistance, but not all and magic classes have lots of other great spells that are similar.
Comparing that with a Paladin with divine Smite at level 17, he can do a maximum of 1d8 + 5d8 (smite) + 1d8, thanks to the improved Devine smite at level 11 dealing potentially 56 damage. Damage we can do once because of only one 5th speIl slots. I we add the extra attack and everything is perfect we can deal potentially 48 damage (1d8 + 4d8 + 1d8), for a total of a big 104 damage, pretty low comparing to the 240 damage that a Meteor Swarm can do. I don't count the potential if fiend or undead since it depends on the monster.
Yes, I can add strength modifier, the +1 or +2 or +3 of the magic weapon, the bonus of my fighting style which is Dueling and debuffs, but magic classes can do similar things.
I don't want to take the great Weapon Master feat because I played a Martial character based campaign where I was a Human fighter and game after game I had so much issues hitting because of the -5. When I finally was able to hit the +10 to the attack’s damage was overkill or was not worth it because I could have just hit more often and deal more damages than do a big damage once. I just stopped using the feat and we were not high level.
I do understand that we are a team and Martial classes are Tanks and damage dealers and should protect the squishy magic classes, but with Mage Armor + modifiers + magic items, a Wizard can be pretty buff as well. I also understand that it's a social game and we are there to have fun, but since we also want deal big damages to monsters, it's not quite fun when a big attack can do, at best, the same amount of damage that one spell can do at half damage.
At the end the day, I feel like Martial classes can't hold their own against Magic classes in DnD.
Do you have suggestion on how to improve an Oath of vengeance Paladin in order to deal more damage and contribute more to the team?
Thank you
If you insist on doing sword-n-board vengeance, I think your only option for BIG damage is to multiclass into hexblade after you get to lvl 6 in paladin. If your character's an elf or half-elf, pick up elven accuracy, and when you get to lvl 11 (paladin 6, hexblade 5), pick up eldritch smite.
then, once per short rest, if you crit while under the effects of the curse and vow of enmity, your crits can stack both eldritch and divine smite. When you unlock 5th level spell slots at lvl 9 warlock, your crits can deal 22d8s of damage.
You're level 5. Stop doing flawed napkin math based on level 17 and just have fun. Whatever problems Paladins have, damage output is not one of them.
Save your smites for critical hits (doubles all of the damage dice), undead or fiends, and enemies that absolutely have to die (who get your Vow of Enmity too). Lean into your shield role and protect your allies. Cast Bless and everyone will be happy regardless of your damage output. Use Hunter's Mark to increase your damage with every hit. Grab Shield Master to shove enemies around as a bonus action.
Great Weapon Master is a gold-tier feat, but using it every round is a trap. You're meant to be using it when you have Advantage, which helps negate the penalty to hit. Vow of Enmity actually works well with GWM, but regardless GWM is not necessary to have fun in melee.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
If you want to compare melee attacks to a spell casters damage you need to compare it to cantrips, because those are the damaging spells a caster can use that do not use up a limited resource (spellslots).
So for your example a Paly with a longsword at level 1 should do 1d8 + 3 (STR modifier) compared to a Toll the Dead which does 1d8 to 1d12 which is comparable. At level 5 it is still fairly close, a Paladin can now do (1d8 + 3 or 4) x2 compared to a Toll the Dead doing 2d8 to 2d12 But at level 11 the Paladin pulls ahead through Improved Divine Smite. Also note that besides Eldritch Blast most other cantrips only have 1 roll to hit or save so in most cases its all or nothing whereas the Paladin can swing twice to most likely score at least some damage every round.
There are specific classes that fall outside this category, like the Warlock and the Evocation Wizard but generally a martial class will do better damage with their base attack against a casters cantrip. The casters of course make up for this with cool spells that have interesting effects and higher damage but spell slots are a limited resource that a caster needs to carefully manage between long rests whereas a Paladin with no spell slots can still swing for the fences and do decent damage.
First of all, if you have a 5th level spell slot you are way better off using it to cast Holy Weapon on yourself. This compliments your extra attack well and gives you even bigger boost and reason to ask your fellow wizard for a haste buff.
Second of all, comparing it to Meteor Swarm isn't really productive - one, half of the damage is fire which is very commonly resisted. Two, it is reliant on Dex save to do this kind of damage which means that there are monsters/enemies who can take anywhere between 0 and half damage from that (Evasion).
Third - critical strikes. Can't crit with a Meteor Swarm but if you crit with a strike and then decide to pump a 4th level divine smite, you get something like this:
1d8 (sword)+5d8 (4th lvl divine smite)+1d8(improved divine smite)+2d8 (holy weapon)+5 (Str) + 2 (dueling) +3 (weapon +3)
That's 18d8+10 damage from one strike for avg. of 91. And you still have one more strike this round or even two if you are hasted.
I think it's disingenuous to dismiss OP's concerns like that. Damage output normally would not be an issue, if not for the fact that the OP wants neither PAM nor GWM. Unless he's got access to a flame tongue or a sun blade, he's going to do chump change for damage when it's his turn compared to an optimized martial, and he'll have to perform a nova of sorts on his turn to perform on a similar level.
Now, OP is mistaken in comparing martials to casters. Fact is, a caster has to be very picky with the spells they use and when to use them. What's more, damage might not be the correct option, such as how hypnotic pattern may be more helpful over a fireball. Even meteor storm's a faulty comparison-- it's a 9th level spell. That's a once-a-day thing, and that's that, whereas the martial still has their power to dish out turn after turn because that's just how martials do.
However, if we are to work strictly in making the best damage output with a sword-n-board set up, Hexadin does offer a lot. Sorcadin does as well, and arguably better in a couple ways, but that's very item-reliant whereas Hexadin isn't. You can invest all into CHA and still have great saves to serve the party, and with short-rest resources, a nap's all that's needed after doing a crit eldritch+divine smite combo.
And so long as you have a handful of levels in paladin, you still have access to 5th level spells and such albeit dependent on scroll use and dependent on party support to ensure passing the DC to successfully cast them. Still, the option is there.
I think Vengeance was made for a heavy hitting 2h weapon with GWM and possibly PAM. There is nothing wrong with being a sword and board paladin. I just think you won't be able to fully utilize what Vengeance does best by going that route. I would have taken a different paladin subclass, if I wanted to go 1h and shield all the way. But play what you want. I just think you may be trying to fit the square peg into the round hole, to some extent, especially if damage dealing is what you want.
I think 5e is far better balanced by classes, than other versions of DnD. Just by the nature of AOE, full spellcasters will always have more potential damage in total, in a turn. But Vengeance should be able to do exceptional single target damage, when they want to. Yes, I want to do good damage and be a productive party member. I also think, at the end of the day, we win or lose as a team. If I keep the mobs off my more squishy party members, do what damage I can do and the casters do most of the damage...oh well. The party won the encounter. I can still see some nice numbers when the dice gods favor me. :)
Hello Everyone,
Thank you for your suggestions.
You help me with my worries.
Have a great day and enjoy your DnD sessions.
GrandoAxehamme
As pointed out previously, meteor swarm is a once a day thing, while the paladin will be dealing much more sustainable damage throughout the day. I think that should be factored in you assessment. Many full caster classes are strong not for their damage but utility. In fact, after witnessing the power of Wish in game, meteor swarm is rather subpar tbh.
Oath of vengeance paladins are great, especially if used as a foundation for multi-classing. Are you against multi-classing? If not, have you considered a sword (rapier) and board assassin rogue/oath of vengeance paladin? Those surprise rounds amount to ridiculous amounts of damage! The only issue with this build is having to depend exclusively on stealth to surprise, which can be hard in some situations and can depend largely on your DM's style. This is nothing a dip in sorcerer or bard can't fix, however, as you can get access to great utility spells like invisibility/greater invisibility and Alter Self to surprise your foes. Adding anywhere between 6-10 levels of a full casting class can really transform a melee character despite never achieving those game-altering 9th level spells.
Expanding on the rogue/paladin/sorcerer above, it's not like you'll only shine during surprise rounds. Thanks to haste, blink, mirror image, shield, absorb elements and counterspell, you can be very elusive. This is especially true when you factor the awesome synergy cunning action has with greater invisibility (hide as a bonus action). Furthermore, the sorcerer's metamagic abilities, such as silent spell, allows you to quietly buff yourself just before your assassination attempt. In fact, add the war caster feat and you can cast most spells with nothing more than a thought. You won't lack in damage either with quickened and twin spell which really maximize action economy and increase your damage potential to very respectable levels. I remember assassinating for 100-200 damage easily by assassinating with only two smites (Attack action) and a quickened booming blade. Add poison and/or spells like haste/hunter's mark, which are all fair game, and you can easily increase your damage further without wasting too many resources.
As previously mentioned, whenever the going gets though, I could avoid most damage due to greater invisibility, cunning action stealth, the shield spell, blink and mirror image. Oh and you have great saving throws to boot with aura of defense.
I did a full campaign (lvl 1-20) with a rapier/shield assassin rogue/oath of vengeance paladin/draconic sorcerer; and it was a blast! If you want I could post it?
If there's one thing I learned from playing this build it's that although damage is nice, finding a good balance between damage, utility and defense is better IMO.
You could simply go for a classic multiclass - paladin/sorcerer, and spend a ton of high level slots on smites :) dont have to cast spells to be a sorcerer ;) also adds the benefit of bonus action spellcasting = hold person+two smite attacks per round for total madness