Okay, so the idea is to create a Paladin that relies mostly on spellcasting rather than fighting with weapons. From the start, I realise it's not going to be ideal, but the question is if it's viable at all. Similarly, a Rogue that uses a dagger is not too far off of the one that uses a rapier. Just -2 damage on average, and most of his damage comes from Sneak Attack anyway. On the other hand, if the rogue tries to punch people, he won't be able to apply a sneak attack and with only one attack per round, he'll deal very little damage and will clearly not be a viable teammate... in terms of damage. Of course, there are other ways to be useful in a fight, but a punching rogue is clearly not doing them. I don't mind my Paladin to focus on something other than damage, so long as it's actually useful. It should be noted that I prefer not to multiclass if possible, but I'll hear out ideas with multiclassing too.
The Blessed Warrior allows the Paladin to take two Cleric cantrips. Druidic Warrior for Ranger allows taking Shillelagh, so a Ranger that chooses that fighting style can still fight normally. Meanwhile, Clerics don't offer many cantrips that deal damage, and none of them works like Shillelagh. Most likely, when you pick this fighting style, assuming you're going to use the cantrips in combat often, you'll pick Toll the Dead and one of the other two options, often Word of Radiance. Now, TtD might be a good cantrip, but it's just a cantrip. Eventually, normal attacks deal more damage. Okay, but full casters can manage, right? You're not a full caster, though. Full casters rely on spells, but a Paladin doesn't have that many spell slots, and only gets them back on long rests. If it turns out to be a long day, you're in trouble if you're a caster Paladin. Also, many of the Paladin's abilities, like Divine Smite, Extra Attack and Improved Divine Smite will only benefit a melee Paladin, while a caster Paladin doesn't benefit from those at all. As for the subclass, I thought Oath of Redemption would be good. It's useful to have a high DC for this Channel Divinity and the spells offered are all pretty good, other than the fact some of them are save-or-suck... which works with the Charisma-based Paladin. Also, since you're not in the front line, probably, you can use Aura of the Guardian more often with no concern about losing HP too fast. (I'm also ignoring the capstone ability because... almost no campaign really takes characters that far.)
What do you think? Can a caster-Paladin be useful? Even if not as a damage-dealer, can there be another thing the Paladin will be viable at doing?
All you need to do is spend 2 feats to pick up Eldritch Blast (either Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper) and Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Adept). That will sort out your offense leaving you free to do whatever you want with the rest of your build.
For sure it gonna be worthed it. Who wants to be a papersheet "Woozard" while you can wear geared plate armor and spamm SMITE ( and still use the Aura as a nice PLUS to the AC ) ??
It seems like you’d just end up a crappier version of a cleric. The list gives you some spell options to buff people, but they’re almost all concentration. It could work with the cleric, like they cast bless while you shield of faith someone. But that’s already a viable tactic. I guess you could use the smite spells, instead of using the slots for bonus damage, not sure if that’s what you have in mind when you say caster, though.
And beyond what he spell list, there’s the slow progression. You’re never going to have many slots, and the ones you do have will be underpowered, since you’re getting them so late — eg you get third level spells four levels after full casters.
Just multi-class into Divine Soul Sorcerer. You get the cleric and sorcerer spell list, while still using CHA for your spellcasting modifier. Or...hate to say this, but just roll a cleric or sorcerer, it seems like that's what you want anyway. In DnD, paladins are a martial class, which means they are fighting with weapons in the frontlines. Paladins don't even get many spells that do damage sans a weapon. Most of their spell damage is triggered by a weapon hit. I am having trouble thinking of any damaging paladin spell that doesn't require a melee weapon hit? Destructive Wave, a 5th level spell, is all I can think of. Maybe there is another, somewhere in there, but if so, there aren't many.
The question is whether there's a different way to be viable. Obviously, the Paladin won't deal as much damage. Not even close. But, then, why would you ever take that fighting style? Even if not optimal, I was trying to find a pure Paladin that is viable with that fighting style. Or, maybe, a non-Hexadin Paladin that actually has a good reason to prioritise Cha over Str.
And beyond what he spell list, there’s the slow progression. You’re never going to have many slots, and the ones you do have will be underpowered, since you’re getting them so late — eg you get third level spells four levels after full casters.
Talking about FULL CASTERS........ those cannot get Auras nore cannot wear Heavy armors + the Holy shield. So the point here is, Pallys don't gets so many spells BUUUuuuuuT, they can Holify + Bless + and perform almost the same job as some bards.
So, is it worthed sacrifiying spellslots for the use of Martial Arts or some Auras ???? In that case, compare the Eldritch Knight with the Pally, and tell me who is the best.
This post has potentially manipulated dice roll results.
This is kinda interesting to me, as it is actually something that I am trying out in a campaign...
I wanted to build a paladin with a low Con modifier, but I quickly realized that it meant very little melee for me. As a result, I ended up taking the Blessed Warrior Fighting Style, and am relying on Toll the Dead instead of attacks. So far, this has worked brilliantly and I have found that it is actually much better than trying to get into melee (2 party members have Bags of Tricks and we have a few summoners, so getting into melee is a hassle anyways and there are plenty of meat shields)... I haven't broken past 4th level, so I don't think I am educated enough to say whether or not it will be able to stay viable when other classes are getting their extra attack/level 3 spells, but 14 damage every round with Toll the Dead and Bless (which stays relevant until REALLY high levels) still seems like it should still hold up. *fingers crossed* I am also really looking forward to my Aura of Protection because my Charisma Modifier is going to be really high compared to average paladins. Instead of being a spellcaster, you are more of just a buff machine (Aura of Protection and Bless) that can be mediocre in combat. Nothing special like a Sorcadin pumping out 2 smites a round or a Bearbarian with well over 150 effective HP, but it can still hold its own.
TLDR; I have found that it is possible and you don't actually feel like you are missing out on too much at the low levels... At higher levels, it might drop off when others get high-level spells and your smites are just sitting there unused, but Aura of Protection should offset that weakness a little too.
Here is the character sheet in case you are curious.
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“The mark of a successful DM is when you have caused more player deaths with doors than dragons, demons, or devils.”
Yeah, that's about what I assumed the character will be - some kind of protector/buffer. The real problem I found with that is that with the limited amount of spell slots and lower levelled spells, I don't know if it really compares to other buffers. Aura of Protection is good but it is the only feature (Aura of Courage, but that's usually not so useful, especially with a fat bonus to avoid the condition from AoP) that help a Paladin as a buffer. Cleansing Touch is nice, but it comes too late in the game. Oath of Redemption offers a lot on that end (though maybe not for your low-Con Paladin), which is why I thought it's good. Taking the damage from others will greatly help and allow them to focus on dealing damage. It also provides some nice spells that benefit from a high spell-save DC. Still, with limited spell slots and how late in the game you get it, I don't know if it's worth it or not. All in all, it feels like a 50-50. Either it will be great or it will be horrible, so it feels. I should probably find a place to try it out a bit before attempting to make this in an actual campaign.
I personally don't see this as viable especially at higher levels. You talk about buffing, but you can do that anyway. You can get ranged cantrips, but unless you can get an ability score modifier attached to it, it will always feel weaker than you like. I took a level of Sorcerer with my paladin to get firebolt (and other stuff) and for a long time, my javelin did more damage. A question you might want to ask is: What are you bringing to the party with this build that you can't with a more standard build? What I see is that you're just not using the main damage dealing ability without being able to compensate anything else. In other words, your not a better buffer because your not hitting things.
I applaud the theory crafting around different builds. I had a friend who made a wizard with no direct damage spells. He used buffs/debuffs/controls/summons and was very effective. Wizards have the tools to do this. I don't see Paladins the same way. While I wouldn't consider this a truly broken character concept, I really can't see this working well past the 1st tier without multiclassing. If you do go this route, you might want to ask your DM and other party members if there ok with it. A larger party might be able to compensate for the lost damage, but a smaller one might not.
All you need to do is spend 2 feats to pick up Eldritch Blast (either Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper) and Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Adept). That will sort out your offense leaving you free to do whatever you want with the rest of your build.
You can't get agonizing blast. That requires you to be a warlock. from the Eldritch Adept feat:
If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.
Agonizing blast has a pre-requisite: Eldritch blast. While you have EB, you are not a warlock, therefore you do not qualify for AB.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
All you need to do is spend 2 feats to pick up Eldritch Blast (either Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper) and Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Adept). That will sort out your offense leaving you free to do whatever you want with the rest of your build.
You can't get agonizing blast. That requires you to be a warlock. from the Eldritch Adept feat:
If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.
Agonizing blast has a pre-requisite: Eldritch blast. While you have EB, you are not a warlock, therefore you do not qualify for AB.
"The great tragedy of science, the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact" - Thomas Huxeley
All you need to do is spend 2 feats to pick up Eldritch Blast (either Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper) and Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Adept). That will sort out your offense leaving you free to do whatever you want with the rest of your build.
You can't get agonizing blast. That requires you to be a warlock. from the Eldritch Adept feat:
If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.
Agonizing blast has a pre-requisite: Eldritch blast. While you have EB, you are not a warlock, therefore you do not qualify for AB.
Nice catch thanks for correcting my mistake. Hmm in that case if the Paly still wants decent offense then maybe picking up Hex to go with EB through Fey Touched is an option.
All you need to do is spend 2 feats to pick up Eldritch Blast (either Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper) and Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Adept). That will sort out your offense leaving you free to do whatever you want with the rest of your build.
You can't get agonizing blast. That requires you to be a warlock. from the Eldritch Adept feat:
If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.
Agonizing blast has a pre-requisite: Eldritch blast. While you have EB, you are not a warlock, therefore you do not qualify for AB.
Nice catch thanks for correcting my mistake. Hmm in that case if the Paly still wants decent offense then maybe picking up Hex to go with EB through Fey Touched is an option.
I didn't realize it either. Probably most of us didn't catch it.
its doable depending on build and yes it would require multiclass to be more viable. Start paladin then multi into lets say undead warlock. If you go 3 levels in it you can take pact of the tome. use the cantrips to grab at least shillelagh and have your weapon be a club or qstaff. Grab agonizing blast and eldritch mind for con saves adv. Now you can almost exclusively be ranged blaster style that can instill fear save freely once a turn if transformed keeping things at bay. if melee is needed once you hit pally 5 then shilleleigh your club and smack away freely using strictly CHA. This is due to your pact making the shil cantrip count as a warlock cantrip so it uses CHA now instead of wisdom. You have a lot of options.
its doable depending on build and yes it would require multiclass to be more viable. Start paladin then multi into lets say undead warlock. If you go 3 levels in it you can take pact of the tome. use the cantrips to grab at least shillelagh and have your weapon be a club or qstaff. Grab agonizing blast and eldritch mind for con saves adv. Now you can almost exclusively be ranged blaster style that can instill fear save freely once a turn if transformed keeping things at bay. if melee is needed once you hit pally 5 then shilleleigh your club and smack away freely using strictly CHA. This is due to your pact making the shil cantrip count as a warlock cantrip so it uses CHA now instead of wisdom. You have a lot of options.
This isn't a paladin who casts as much as its a warlock who gets into melee.
its doable depending on build and yes it would require multiclass to be more viable. Start paladin then multi into lets say undead warlock. If you go 3 levels in it you can take pact of the tome. use the cantrips to grab at least shillelagh and have your weapon be a club or qstaff. Grab agonizing blast and eldritch mind for con saves adv. Now you can almost exclusively be ranged blaster style that can instill fear save freely once a turn if transformed keeping things at bay. if melee is needed once you hit pally 5 then shilleleigh your club and smack away freely using strictly CHA. This is due to your pact making the shil cantrip count as a warlock cantrip so it uses CHA now instead of wisdom. You have a lot of options.
This isn't a paladin who casts as much as its a warlock who gets into melee.
I mean I use this as an EB spammer. playing it @15th level (7pally, 8 undead) and using the eb for smacking and keeping things away from me an allies. D4 on youube was where I got my inspiration from on his support warlock vid.
The L6 Paladin aura is incredibly good, but 6 or 7 levels into Paladin is a really heavy investment if you don't plan to use Divine Smite or Extra Attack ever. I question the real utility there over a straight Sorlock.
It is, I am mainly there as the party tank and boost their saves by +5....thats if people would ever stay close enough to the Ghostrider...*sad noises* anyway. if I can get close I use shill to smack away freely and smite up a storm if crit. You are right though, it is used few and far between recently.
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Okay, so the idea is to create a Paladin that relies mostly on spellcasting rather than fighting with weapons. From the start, I realise it's not going to be ideal, but the question is if it's viable at all. Similarly, a Rogue that uses a dagger is not too far off of the one that uses a rapier. Just -2 damage on average, and most of his damage comes from Sneak Attack anyway. On the other hand, if the rogue tries to punch people, he won't be able to apply a sneak attack and with only one attack per round, he'll deal very little damage and will clearly not be a viable teammate... in terms of damage. Of course, there are other ways to be useful in a fight, but a punching rogue is clearly not doing them. I don't mind my Paladin to focus on something other than damage, so long as it's actually useful.
It should be noted that I prefer not to multiclass if possible, but I'll hear out ideas with multiclassing too.
The Blessed Warrior allows the Paladin to take two Cleric cantrips. Druidic Warrior for Ranger allows taking Shillelagh, so a Ranger that chooses that fighting style can still fight normally. Meanwhile, Clerics don't offer many cantrips that deal damage, and none of them works like Shillelagh. Most likely, when you pick this fighting style, assuming you're going to use the cantrips in combat often, you'll pick Toll the Dead and one of the other two options, often Word of Radiance. Now, TtD might be a good cantrip, but it's just a cantrip. Eventually, normal attacks deal more damage.
Okay, but full casters can manage, right? You're not a full caster, though. Full casters rely on spells, but a Paladin doesn't have that many spell slots, and only gets them back on long rests. If it turns out to be a long day, you're in trouble if you're a caster Paladin.
Also, many of the Paladin's abilities, like Divine Smite, Extra Attack and Improved Divine Smite will only benefit a melee Paladin, while a caster Paladin doesn't benefit from those at all.
As for the subclass, I thought Oath of Redemption would be good. It's useful to have a high DC for this Channel Divinity and the spells offered are all pretty good, other than the fact some of them are save-or-suck... which works with the Charisma-based Paladin. Also, since you're not in the front line, probably, you can use Aura of the Guardian more often with no concern about losing HP too fast. (I'm also ignoring the capstone ability because... almost no campaign really takes characters that far.)
What do you think? Can a caster-Paladin be useful? Even if not as a damage-dealer, can there be another thing the Paladin will be viable at doing?
Varielky
All you need to do is spend 2 feats to pick up Eldritch Blast (either Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper) and Agonizing Blast (Eldritch Adept). That will sort out your offense leaving you free to do whatever you want with the rest of your build.
For sure it gonna be worthed it. Who wants to be a papersheet "Woozard" while you can wear geared plate armor and spamm SMITE ( and still use the Aura as a nice PLUS to the AC ) ??
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
It seems like you’d just end up a crappier version of a cleric. The list gives you some spell options to buff people, but they’re almost all concentration. It could work with the cleric, like they cast bless while you shield of faith someone. But that’s already a viable tactic. I guess you could use the smite spells, instead of using the slots for bonus damage, not sure if that’s what you have in mind when you say caster, though.
And beyond what he spell list, there’s the slow progression. You’re never going to have many slots, and the ones you do have will be underpowered, since you’re getting them so late — eg you get third level spells four levels after full casters.
Just multi-class into Divine Soul Sorcerer. You get the cleric and sorcerer spell list, while still using CHA for your spellcasting modifier. Or...hate to say this, but just roll a cleric or sorcerer, it seems like that's what you want anyway. In DnD, paladins are a martial class, which means they are fighting with weapons in the frontlines. Paladins don't even get many spells that do damage sans a weapon. Most of their spell damage is triggered by a weapon hit. I am having trouble thinking of any damaging paladin spell that doesn't require a melee weapon hit? Destructive Wave, a 5th level spell, is all I can think of. Maybe there is another, somewhere in there, but if so, there aren't many.
The question is whether there's a different way to be viable. Obviously, the Paladin won't deal as much damage. Not even close. But, then, why would you ever take that fighting style? Even if not optimal, I was trying to find a pure Paladin that is viable with that fighting style. Or, maybe, a non-Hexadin Paladin that actually has a good reason to prioritise Cha over Str.
Varielky
Talking about FULL CASTERS........ those cannot get Auras nore cannot wear Heavy armors + the Holy shield. So the point here is, Pallys don't gets so many spells BUUUuuuuuT, they can Holify + Bless + and perform almost the same job as some bards.
So, is it worthed sacrifiying spellslots for the use of Martial Arts or some Auras ???? In that case, compare the Eldritch Knight with the Pally, and tell me who is the best.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
This is kinda interesting to me, as it is actually something that I am trying out in a campaign...
I wanted to build a paladin with a low Con modifier, but I quickly realized that it meant very little melee for me. As a result, I ended up taking the Blessed Warrior Fighting Style, and am relying on Toll the Dead instead of attacks. So far, this has worked brilliantly and I have found that it is actually much better than trying to get into melee (2 party members have Bags of Tricks and we have a few summoners, so getting into melee is a hassle anyways and there are plenty of meat shields)... I haven't broken past 4th level, so I don't think I am educated enough to say whether or not it will be able to stay viable when other classes are getting their extra attack/level 3 spells, but 14 damage every round with Toll the Dead and Bless (which stays relevant until REALLY high levels) still seems like it should still hold up. *fingers crossed* I am also really looking forward to my Aura of Protection because my Charisma Modifier is going to be really high compared to average paladins. Instead of being a spellcaster, you are more of just a buff machine (Aura of Protection and Bless) that can be mediocre in combat. Nothing special like a Sorcadin pumping out 2 smites a round or a Bearbarian with well over 150 effective HP, but it can still hold its own.
TLDR; I have found that it is possible and you don't actually feel like you are missing out on too much at the low levels... At higher levels, it might drop off when others get high-level spells and your smites are just sitting there unused, but Aura of Protection should offset that weakness a little too.
Here is the character sheet in case you are curious.
“The mark of a successful DM is when you have caused more player deaths with doors than dragons, demons, or devils.”
Yeah, that's about what I assumed the character will be - some kind of protector/buffer. The real problem I found with that is that with the limited amount of spell slots and lower levelled spells, I don't know if it really compares to other buffers. Aura of Protection is good but it is the only feature (Aura of Courage, but that's usually not so useful, especially with a fat bonus to avoid the condition from AoP) that help a Paladin as a buffer. Cleansing Touch is nice, but it comes too late in the game.
Oath of Redemption offers a lot on that end (though maybe not for your low-Con Paladin), which is why I thought it's good. Taking the damage from others will greatly help and allow them to focus on dealing damage. It also provides some nice spells that benefit from a high spell-save DC. Still, with limited spell slots and how late in the game you get it, I don't know if it's worth it or not.
All in all, it feels like a 50-50. Either it will be great or it will be horrible, so it feels. I should probably find a place to try it out a bit before attempting to make this in an actual campaign.
Varielky
I personally don't see this as viable especially at higher levels. You talk about buffing, but you can do that anyway. You can get ranged cantrips, but unless you can get an ability score modifier attached to it, it will always feel weaker than you like. I took a level of Sorcerer with my paladin to get firebolt (and other stuff) and for a long time, my javelin did more damage. A question you might want to ask is: What are you bringing to the party with this build that you can't with a more standard build? What I see is that you're just not using the main damage dealing ability without being able to compensate anything else. In other words, your not a better buffer because your not hitting things.
I applaud the theory crafting around different builds. I had a friend who made a wizard with no direct damage spells. He used buffs/debuffs/controls/summons and was very effective. Wizards have the tools to do this. I don't see Paladins the same way. While I wouldn't consider this a truly broken character concept, I really can't see this working well past the 1st tier without multiclassing. If you do go this route, you might want to ask your DM and other party members if there ok with it. A larger party might be able to compensate for the lost damage, but a smaller one might not.
You can't get agonizing blast. That requires you to be a warlock. from the Eldritch Adept feat:
If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.
Agonizing blast has a pre-requisite: Eldritch blast. While you have EB, you are not a warlock, therefore you do not qualify for AB.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
"The great tragedy of science, the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact" - Thomas Huxeley
:)
Nice catch thanks for correcting my mistake. Hmm in that case if the Paly still wants decent offense then maybe picking up Hex to go with EB through Fey Touched is an option.
I didn't realize it either. Probably most of us didn't catch it.
its doable depending on build and yes it would require multiclass to be more viable. Start paladin then multi into lets say undead warlock. If you go 3 levels in it you can take pact of the tome. use the cantrips to grab at least shillelagh and have your weapon be a club or qstaff. Grab agonizing blast and eldritch mind for con saves adv. Now you can almost exclusively be ranged blaster style that can instill fear save freely once a turn if transformed keeping things at bay. if melee is needed once you hit pally 5 then shilleleigh your club and smack away freely using strictly CHA. This is due to your pact making the shil cantrip count as a warlock cantrip so it uses CHA now instead of wisdom. You have a lot of options.
This isn't a paladin who casts as much as its a warlock who gets into melee.
I mean I use this as an EB spammer. playing it @15th level (7pally, 8 undead) and using the eb for smacking and keeping things away from me an allies. D4 on youube was where I got my inspiration from on his support warlock vid.
The L6 Paladin aura is incredibly good, but 6 or 7 levels into Paladin is a really heavy investment if you don't plan to use Divine Smite or Extra Attack ever. I question the real utility there over a straight Sorlock.
It is, I am mainly there as the party tank and boost their saves by +5....thats if people would ever stay close enough to the Ghostrider...*sad noises* anyway. if I can get close I use shill to smack away freely and smite up a storm if crit. You are right though, it is used few and far between recently.