Radiant Strikes does not do that, a paladin with no special features or weapons will get 2 attacks which adds 1d8 for each hit or 2d8 for a critical. This is basically less damage than is added by Fighter's two extra attacks. Monk does have to use a resource to use Flurry of Blows but by level 11 you get enough you can use it near every round... where Paladin will do more damage is taking Polearm Master and Heavy Weapon Master while using a Polearm but that'll be the case before Radiant Strikes comes along and is a case of GWM being a bit overpowered and PAM still being very overpowered.
radiant strikes makes it so the paladin can do more then a monk with multi attack without resource. they are too strong and resource efficient .
At level 11, a monk has 11 focus points and gets them all back on a short rest. That is enough that in most cases, it's effectively not a limited resource and a monk can afford to attack twice and flurry for 3 extra attacks, dealing 5d10 damage if they all hit (and they can be Force damage).
A Paladin trying to maximize the Radiant Strikes damage would be able to get 4 attacks with 2 light weapons (Shortsword + Scimitar for Nick) and the Dual Wielder Feat. That Paladin, if all attacks hit, would be dealing 4d6 + 4d8 damage, assuming no weapon juggling. The paladin is dealing an average of 32 damage versus the monk's 27.5.
That is not a huge difference. If the paladin is focusing on big damage die weapons, at best, you'll be looking at 3d10 + 3d8 or 34.8. Notice that trying to capitalize on the free damage reduced the Paladin's average damage? I think this is just a case of Radiant Strikes looking better on paper than it is in practice.
Also, a Monk Grappler next to a Spike Growth will absolutely demolish a Paladin's damage output. Grapple a target, drag them around the growth for 5d10 + 20d4 piercing damage (77.5) OR instead of flurrying, Dash for 2d10 + 40d4 piercing damage (111)! If you are a species with higher movement, it's even more. If you see a Centaur Monk Grappler, back away slowly.
Next time a Paladin is outshining your damage, make friends with a Druid unless you want to now make the argument that a Monk's Unarmored Movement is too strong.
radiant strikes makes it so the paladin can do more then a monk with multi attack without resource. they are too strong and resource efficient .
At level 11, a monk has 11 focus points and gets them all back on a short rest. That is enough that in most cases, it's effectively not a limited resource and a monk can afford to attack twice and flurry for 3 extra attacks, dealing 5d10 damage if they all hit (and they can be Force damage).
A Paladin trying to maximize the Radiant Strikes damage would be able to get 4 attacks with 2 light weapons (Shortsword + Scimitar for Nick) and the Dual Wielder Feat. That Paladin, if all attacks hit, would be dealing 4d6 + 4d8 damage, assuming no weapon juggling. The paladin is dealing an average of 32 damage versus the monk's 27.5.
That is not a huge difference. If the paladin is focusing on big damage die weapons, at best, you'll be looking at 3d10 + 3d8 or 34.8. Notice that trying to capitalize on the free damage reduced the Paladin's average damage? I think this is just a case of Radiant Strikes looking better on paper than it is in practice.
Also, a Monk Grappler next to a Spike Growth will absolutely demolish a Paladin's damage output. Grapple a target, drag them around the growth for 5d10 + 20d4 piercing damage (77.5) OR instead of flurrying, Dash for 2d10 + 40d4 piercing damage (111)! If you are a species with higher movement, it's even more. If you see a Centaur Monk Grappler, back away slowly.
Next time a Paladin is outshining your damage, make friends with a Druid unless you want to now make the argument that a Monk's Unarmored Movement is too strong.
You need to also consider attack ability modifier due to different number of attacks. So assuming a +4, the Monk would get 47.5(27.5+20) vs 48 (32+16).
If you then take the Weapon Mastery feat as the Monk, you can take Scimitar Mastery and equip a Scimitar with another monk weapon. You get to make 6 attacks instead of 5, do not get an ability modifier on it but another 1d10 would boost that 47.5 to 53. So in Monk vs. two weapon fighting Paladin, Monk can win the sustained DPR game.
That said a Polearm wielding paladin could do 2*(1d10+1d8+4+3)+1d4+1d8+4=48.. and then potentially get an extra reaction for another 14 (1d10+1d8+4) to get 62.
Which is the real issue, GWM+PAM is very overpowered for Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin & Warlock (Pact of the Blade). Also enchantment bonuses on magic items, as far as I am aware, there is no magic item that grants Monks attack/damage bonuses scaling the same way that magic weapons do.
You need to also consider attack ability modifier due to different number of attacks. So assuming a +4, the Monk would get 47.5(27.5+20) vs 48 (32+16).
If you then take the Weapon Mastery feat as the Monk, you can take Scimitar Mastery and equip a Scimitar with another monk weapon. You get to make 6 attacks instead of 5, do not get an ability modifier on it but another 1d10 would boost that 47.5 to 53. So in Monk vs. two weapon fighting Paladin, Monk can win the sustained DPR game.
I was trying to evaluate the base damage values due to potential fluctuations in actual attribute values, but you're right; the raw number of distinct attacks favors the monk due the static bonuses per attack.
Throw on a Spirit Shroud and watch the Paladin really go to town.
The Paladin would have to cast it but that's a weaker version of [spells[Conjure Minor Elementals[/spells] that scales slower. Spirit Shroud will add 1D8 damage per hit with a 3rd or 4th level slot and 2D8 with a 5th level slot. Conjure Minor Elementals adds 2D8 with a 4th level slot and 3D8 with a 5th level slot (and scales higher for multiclass Paladins). The Speed reduction of Spirit Shroud is nice though.
Throw on a Spirit Shroud and watch the Paladin really go to town.
The Paladin would have to cast it but that's a weaker version of [spells[Conjure Minor Elementals[/spells] that scales slower. Spirit Shroud will add 1D8 damage per hit with a 3rd or 4th level slot and 2D8 with a 5th level slot. Conjure Minor Elementals adds 2D8 with a 4th level slot and 3D8 with a 5th level slot (and scales higher for multiclass Paladins). The Speed reduction of Spirit Shroud is nice though.
You are missing a vital fact in the comparison of Conjure Minor Elementals and Spirit Shroud. Conjure Minor Elementals is a full action to cast, but Spirit Shroud is only a bonus action. This means that you have to give up your first turn to get Conjure Minor Elementals rolling, but don't with Spirit Shroud. There will be many times where in a combat encounter that will be shorter, or where you are up against multiple weaker monsters, Spirit Shroud would be a better tactical decision because the resulting less damage per hit compared to Conjure Minor Elementals is still favorable to giving up your action and dealing 0 damage on the first turn. This is especially true if on the first turn you can kill an enemy or two before they have a chance to act, negating any damage they could deal to your party.
Conjure Minor Elementals and Spirit Shroud both have their places, and neither is better than the other. Which is the better choice depends entirely on the situation.
Throw on a Spirit Shroud and watch the Paladin really go to town.
The Paladin would have to cast it but that's a weaker version of [spells[Conjure Minor Elementals[/spells] that scales slower. Spirit Shroud will add 1D8 damage per hit with a 3rd or 4th level slot and 2D8 with a 5th level slot. Conjure Minor Elementals adds 2D8 with a 4th level slot and 3D8 with a 5th level slot (and scales higher for multiclass Paladins). The Speed reduction of Spirit Shroud is nice though.
You are missing a vital fact in the comparison of Conjure Minor Elementals and Spirit Shroud. Conjure Minor Elementals is a full action to cast, but Spirit Shroud is only a bonus action. This means that you have to give up your first turn to get Conjure Minor Elementals rolling, but don't with Spirit Shroud. There will be many times where in a combat encounter that will be shorter, or where you are up against multiple weaker monsters, Spirit Shroud would be a better tactical decision because the resulting less damage per hit compared to Conjure Minor Elementals is still favorable to giving up your action and dealing 0 damage on the first turn. This is especially true if on the first turn you can kill an enemy or two before they have a chance to act, negating any damage they could deal to your party.
Conjure Minor Elementals and Spirit Shroud both have their places, and neither is better than the other. Which is the better choice depends entirely on the situation.
That depends on the caster. For example, a College of Dance Bard can at level 10 make an unarmed attack as Bonus Action (via Agile Strikes) the same round as casting the spell and a College of Valor Bard has to wait until 14, but can attack with a weapon and the bonus can be up to 5D8 per attack. The opportunity cost is just one attack for superior damage output. Spirit Shroud is cool, but it's weaker in terms of DPR than Conjure Minor Elementals and it in no way supports or counters the claim that Radiant Strikes is too strong (the point of this thread).
I guess in terms of DPR, if you add Radiant Strikes to Spirit Shroud, it kind of catches up to Conjure Minor Elementals 2D8 at 3rd level, 2D8 vs 2D8 at 4th level, and 3D8 vs 3D8 at 5th level).
Spirit Shroud will also compete with Smites for that Bonus Action. Do you need burst damage or sustained damage? I could see Spirit Shroud being awesome combined with a Cleave polearm, if you have multiple shoulder-to-shoulder targets.
It's comparing a 3rd level Paladin/Warlock spell to a 4th level Druid/Wizard spell which Bard later gets access too. Naturally a 3rd level spell is going to be weaker than a 4th level spell but for a half-caster like paladin that can use it on the same turn they take the attack action and then also activate Sacred Weapon (devotion) or Vow of Enmity (vengeance), it can be a nice DPR increase.
One thing, since Conjure Minor Elementals is a Wizard spell, Eldritch Knight level 18, you cast it with War Magic then action surge for 4 attacks... level 20 that increases to 6 attacks. You can only do it once per day, but a good fun one for burst damage.
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radiant strikes makes it so the paladin can do more then a monk with multi attack without resource. they are too strong and resource efficient .
Radiant Strikes does not do that, a paladin with no special features or weapons will get 2 attacks which adds 1d8 for each hit or 2d8 for a critical. This is basically less damage than is added by Fighter's two extra attacks. Monk does have to use a resource to use Flurry of Blows but by level 11 you get enough you can use it near every round... where Paladin will do more damage is taking Polearm Master and Heavy Weapon Master while using a Polearm but that'll be the case before Radiant Strikes comes along and is a case of GWM being a bit overpowered and PAM still being very overpowered.
Monks are meant to be garbage anyways. Always have been.
No class is meant to be Garbage and 2024 definitely fixed some of the issues with Monk. The Class balance in 2024 is a lot better, except Ranger.
That was said facetiously.
At level 11, a monk has 11 focus points and gets them all back on a short rest. That is enough that in most cases, it's effectively not a limited resource and a monk can afford to attack twice and flurry for 3 extra attacks, dealing 5d10 damage if they all hit (and they can be Force damage).
A Paladin trying to maximize the Radiant Strikes damage would be able to get 4 attacks with 2 light weapons (Shortsword + Scimitar for Nick) and the Dual Wielder Feat. That Paladin, if all attacks hit, would be dealing 4d6 + 4d8 damage, assuming no weapon juggling. The paladin is dealing an average of 32 damage versus the monk's 27.5.
That is not a huge difference. If the paladin is focusing on big damage die weapons, at best, you'll be looking at 3d10 + 3d8 or 34.8. Notice that trying to capitalize on the free damage reduced the Paladin's average damage? I think this is just a case of Radiant Strikes looking better on paper than it is in practice.
Also, a Monk Grappler next to a Spike Growth will absolutely demolish a Paladin's damage output. Grapple a target, drag them around the growth for 5d10 + 20d4 piercing damage (77.5) OR instead of flurrying, Dash for 2d10 + 40d4 piercing damage (111)! If you are a species with higher movement, it's even more. If you see a Centaur Monk Grappler, back away slowly.
Next time a Paladin is outshining your damage, make friends with a Druid unless you want to now make the argument that a Monk's Unarmored Movement is too strong.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
You need to also consider attack ability modifier due to different number of attacks. So assuming a +4, the Monk would get 47.5(27.5+20) vs 48 (32+16).
If you then take the Weapon Mastery feat as the Monk, you can take Scimitar Mastery and equip a Scimitar with another monk weapon. You get to make 6 attacks instead of 5, do not get an ability modifier on it but another 1d10 would boost that 47.5 to 53. So in Monk vs. two weapon fighting Paladin, Monk can win the sustained DPR game.
That said a Polearm wielding paladin could do 2*(1d10+1d8+4+3)+1d4+1d8+4=48.. and then potentially get an extra reaction for another 14 (1d10+1d8+4) to get 62.
Which is the real issue, GWM+PAM is very overpowered for Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin & Warlock (Pact of the Blade). Also enchantment bonuses on magic items, as far as I am aware, there is no magic item that grants Monks attack/damage bonuses scaling the same way that magic weapons do.
I was trying to evaluate the base damage values due to potential fluctuations in actual attribute values, but you're right; the raw number of distinct attacks favors the monk due the static bonuses per attack.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Throw on a Spirit Shroud and watch the Paladin really go to town.
The Paladin would have to cast it but that's a weaker version of [spells[Conjure Minor Elementals[/spells] that scales slower. Spirit Shroud will add 1D8 damage per hit with a 3rd or 4th level slot and 2D8 with a 5th level slot. Conjure Minor Elementals adds 2D8 with a 4th level slot and 3D8 with a 5th level slot (and scales higher for multiclass Paladins). The Speed reduction of Spirit Shroud is nice though.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
You are missing a vital fact in the comparison of Conjure Minor Elementals and Spirit Shroud. Conjure Minor Elementals is a full action to cast, but Spirit Shroud is only a bonus action. This means that you have to give up your first turn to get Conjure Minor Elementals rolling, but don't with Spirit Shroud. There will be many times where in a combat encounter that will be shorter, or where you are up against multiple weaker monsters, Spirit Shroud would be a better tactical decision because the resulting less damage per hit compared to Conjure Minor Elementals is still favorable to giving up your action and dealing 0 damage on the first turn. This is especially true if on the first turn you can kill an enemy or two before they have a chance to act, negating any damage they could deal to your party.
Conjure Minor Elementals and Spirit Shroud both have their places, and neither is better than the other. Which is the better choice depends entirely on the situation.
That depends on the caster. For example, a College of Dance Bard can at level 10 make an unarmed attack as Bonus Action (via Agile Strikes) the same round as casting the spell and a College of Valor Bard has to wait until 14, but can attack with a weapon and the bonus can be up to 5D8 per attack. The opportunity cost is just one attack for superior damage output. Spirit Shroud is cool, but it's weaker in terms of DPR than Conjure Minor Elementals and it in no way supports or counters the claim that Radiant Strikes is too strong (the point of this thread).
I guess in terms of DPR, if you add Radiant Strikes to Spirit Shroud, it kind of catches up to Conjure Minor Elementals 2D8 at 3rd level, 2D8 vs 2D8 at 4th level, and 3D8 vs 3D8 at 5th level).
Spirit Shroud will also compete with Smites for that Bonus Action. Do you need burst damage or sustained damage? I could see Spirit Shroud being awesome combined with a Cleave polearm, if you have multiple shoulder-to-shoulder targets.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
It's comparing a 3rd level Paladin/Warlock spell to a 4th level Druid/Wizard spell which Bard later gets access too. Naturally a 3rd level spell is going to be weaker than a 4th level spell but for a half-caster like paladin that can use it on the same turn they take the attack action and then also activate Sacred Weapon (devotion) or Vow of Enmity (vengeance), it can be a nice DPR increase.
One thing, since Conjure Minor Elementals is a Wizard spell, Eldritch Knight level 18, you cast it with War Magic then action surge for 4 attacks... level 20 that increases to 6 attacks. You can only do it once per day, but a good fun one for burst damage.