Yes! Tactically this spell offers so many options, both in combat and out.
I would 100% allow someone to conjure swarms. The balance comes from the CR, not the flavor of the swarm being made up of multiple animals.
You may but the designers were clear on intent.
DM willing it's a thing but RAW I would say it's not.
They do drastically effect the summon as typically beasts do not get b/p/s resistance like swarms do and ultimately I think that effects their CR when it comes to facing other creatures rather than PCs.
Ultimately will it effect the spell? It could depending on what you pick but ultimately higher numbers of creatures is pretty much always better. Even if you get CR 0 creatures 8 of them will generally outperform most of the higher CR but quantity creatures.
That resistance is built into the CR.
As you know, I don't give a hand about RAW as it applies to the table, only in theoretical discussions. And where do the designers "clear on intent"?
Its in the compendium as a straight up question that they answer "no" to.
"Can conjure animals summon a swarm? No. Conjure animals summons individual creatures, and swarms are groups of creatures."
So its pretty clear its not intended or RAW for the spell. Overall I think its a bit cheeky myself as resistance in the CR is not really taken into account in my opinion as the CR is calculated based on PC abilities NOT creature abilities.
Also in 5e they are notorious for not following their own CR guides very well....so I take that with a grain of salt that its "balanced because of CR" as there are plenty of examples of similar CR creatures just being straight up better than others at the same CR.....see Wolf or Velociraptor....or anything with pack tactics.
Pack tactics is strong. I have found that many stat blocks that seem overpowered for their rating used the wrong thing to calculate their offensive CR. A wolf or giant poisonous snake for instance, they are 1/4 CR via their saving throw DC, but they are 1/2 CR or 1 CR using their to-hit bonus.
Heck. Even giant rats can put out the hurt. Blood Hawks are my favorite at the CR 1/4 level.
Don't sleep on the hawks for sure! Flight is really good for helping too....you can have them use the Help action to swarm a big flying creature so everyone can get a shot on it with ADV
I don’t think it’s totally applicable to Conjure Animals, but one common move I used to deploy with undeads (from Animate Dead) and Tiny Servants was to make them help each other (to negate disadvantage) and then command everyone to throw nets against some enemies.
It was like an improvised Web, specially useful against enemies resistant to magic effects.
I don’t about nets (I love the idea!) but giant frogs (8), alligators (4), constrictor snakes (8), giant toads (2), and the giant constrictor snake (1) all restrain on a hit! Several times I have had half of the animals help the other half and the other half attack with advantage, all restraining enemies.
LOL!! I just finished watching it! Thanks for the link.
I'd also like to point folks towards his video right after that, about conjure woodland beings. In that, he points towards, perhaps a little known secret, as why most druids and many rangers can get away with less spells known/prepared than other like spell casters. Short answer is an option like the dryad, which gives the equivalent of multiple castings of several powerful spells.
Basically the turn time was almost the same as the other players. the damage was decent but the dm also had options and kept it from being overpowered. tactics (to match the senario ) are always the biggest factor in how useful any dnd spell, ability or feature can be.
Basically the turn time was almost the same as the other players. the damage was decent but the dm also had options and kept it from being overpowered. tactics (to match the senario ) are always the biggest factor in how useful any dnd spell, ability or feature can be.
Yes! This is a wonderful video!
I really appreciate Treantmonk's build, tactics, level of preparation, and commentary. This also points a huge spotlight on a huge weakness of builds that NEED to be in melee.
How is an example of someone doing it well a terrible example?! Good lord. Without an example like this one ALL we would have are your examples, and everyone would think the spell is terrible all of the time. Which it isn't, as demonstrated quite handily in the video above.
How is an example of someone doing it well a terrible example?! Good lord. Without an example like this one ALL we would have are your examples, and everyone would think the spell is terrible all of the time. Which it isn't, as demonstrated quite handily in the video above.
Because it's in a VTT, run by someone who has intensive knowledge of the creatures the spell can use, and had 0 complications other then positioning.
It doesn't deal with people who don't do an hour long video on the matter, are rolling IRL, or have complications like AoE enemies, enemies that impose conditions, or really anything complicated at all....
How is an example of someone doing it well a terrible example?! Good lord. Without an example like this one ALL we would have are your examples, and everyone would think the spell is terrible all of the time. Which it isn't, as demonstrated quite handily in the video above.
Because it's in a VTT, run by someone who has intensive knowledge of the creatures the spell can use, and had 0 complications other then positioning.
It doesn't deal with people who don't do an hour long video on the matter, are rolling IRL, or have complications like AoE enemies, enemies that impose conditions, or really anything complicated at all....
His average turn took 6 seconds less time than an average turn of either of the other two player's. Plus, that spell, cast several times, pretty much won that fight, that was 3 times (plus a little more) that of a deadly CR. If his average turn took twice as long, it would be worth it.
The experience level of the people you are giving as examples, several times now, are going to have a looooong turn no matter what they play or are doing on their turn(s). All of the stuff that makes them less equipped to run a conjure spell efficiently also makes them less equipped to run any character efficiently.
How is an example of someone doing it well a terrible example?! Good lord. Without an example like this one ALL we would have are your examples, and everyone would think the spell is terrible all of the time. Which it isn't, as demonstrated quite handily in the video above.
Because it's in a VTT, run by someone who has intensive knowledge of the creatures the spell can use, and had 0 complications other then positioning.
It doesn't deal with people who don't do an hour long video on the matter, are rolling IRL, or have complications like AoE enemies, enemies that impose conditions, or really anything complicated at all....
His average turn took 6 seconds less time than an average turn of either of the other two player's. Plus, that spell, cast several times, pretty much won that fight, that was 3 times (plus a little more) that of a deadly CR. If his average turn took twice as long, it would be worth it.
The experience level of the people you are giving as examples, several times now, are going to have a looooong turn no matter what they play or are doing on their turn(s). All of the stuff that makes them less equipped to run a conjure spell efficiently also makes them less equipped to run any character efficiently.
Yes and the turns will be exponentially longer with that many summons or I as a DM will have to track it and I have enough to track I don't need that extra responsibility.
Again he is a poor example as he knows what the **** he is doing...
Also the VTT helps a lot as you can mass roll.
Also he had no complications like rolling for 8 STR saves then having to mark which ones are prone and therefore only have half movement the next turn... Oh also the creature has an ability that allows it to roll fire damage when it's hit. Now I roll this for all 8 creatures.
Wait this one has a fear effect... Which ones are frightened? They can't move towards the creature... And is it in LOS? If so they are at disadvantage to attack.
But wait they have pack tactics so they actually roll straight..
It can get silly fast and he 0 complications.
Plus I'm sure he didn't count the extra time the DM has to do to deal with the creatures off turn but that didn't count I guess....
https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=16
Its in the compendium as a straight up question that they answer "no" to.
"Can conjure animals summon a swarm? No. Conjure animals summons individual creatures, and swarms are groups of creatures."
So its pretty clear its not intended or RAW for the spell. Overall I think its a bit cheeky myself as resistance in the CR is not really taken into account in my opinion as the CR is calculated based on PC abilities NOT creature abilities.
Also in 5e they are notorious for not following their own CR guides very well....so I take that with a grain of salt that its "balanced because of CR" as there are plenty of examples of similar CR creatures just being straight up better than others at the same CR.....see Wolf or Velociraptor....or anything with pack tactics.
That’s good to know an answer to that question.
Pack tactics is strong. I have found that many stat blocks that seem overpowered for their rating used the wrong thing to calculate their offensive CR. A wolf or giant poisonous snake for instance, they are 1/4 CR via their saving throw DC, but they are 1/2 CR or 1 CR using their to-hit bonus.
Exactly, same as Velociraptors. That’s why Conjure Animals is a DPR King spell for their level.
Heck. Even giant rats can put out the hurt. Blood Hawks are my favorite at the CR 1/4 level.
Don't sleep on the hawks for sure! Flight is really good for helping too....you can have them use the Help action to swarm a big flying creature so everyone can get a shot on it with ADV
I don’t think it’s totally applicable to Conjure Animals, but one common move I used to deploy with undeads (from Animate Dead) and Tiny Servants was to make them help each other (to negate disadvantage) and then command everyone to throw nets against some enemies.
It was like an improvised Web, specially useful against enemies resistant to magic effects.
I don’t about nets (I love the idea!) but giant frogs (8), alligators (4), constrictor snakes (8), giant toads (2), and the giant constrictor snake (1) all restrain on a hit! Several times I have had half of the animals help the other half and the other half attack with advantage, all restraining enemies.
https://youtu.be/VkFhSNvY39w
Treantmonk's view
LOL!! I just finished watching it! Thanks for the link.
I'd also like to point folks towards his video right after that, about conjure woodland beings. In that, he points towards, perhaps a little known secret, as why most druids and many rangers can get away with less spells known/prepared than other like spell casters. Short answer is an option like the dryad, which gives the equivalent of multiple castings of several powerful spells.
an actually lets play with conjure animals. I find the turn time analysis (durring the "break") perticularly appropriate for this discussion.
youtube link - time stamp near the break.
Basically the turn time was almost the same as the other players. the damage was decent but the dm also had options and kept it from being overpowered. tactics (to match the senario ) are always the biggest factor in how useful any dnd spell, ability or feature can be.
Yes! This is a wonderful video!
I really appreciate Treantmonk's build, tactics, level of preparation, and commentary.
This also points a huge spotlight on a huge weakness of builds that NEED to be in melee.
It's Treantmonk tho and he's extremely knowledgeable about DnD and is using a VTT.... Of course he can streamline the turns.
Do this for a random player who doesn't make DnD videos as a full time job and I'll believe you that it doesn't take more time at the table.
I'm not trying to be mean here but this is about the worst example to use to prove the spell doesn't take more time.....
Good Ideals for ranger players with conjure animals.
1. “It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one.” —George Washington
2. “He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.” —Benjamin Franklin
3. “Never make excuses. Your friends don’t need them and your foes won’t believe them.” ―John Wooden
4. “Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses.” ―George Washington Carver
5.“A man can fail many times, but he isn’t a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.” —John Burroughs
6. “The trouble with excuses is that they become inevitably difficult to believe after they’ve been used a couple of times.” ―Scott Spencer
7. “It is wise to direct your anger towards problems—not people, to focus your energies on answers—not excuses.” ―William Arthur Ward
He literally tells you the few simple steps to take to recreate how he achieved this "amazing feat'.
Yeah and TBH not everyone will do this...
I can barely get players to remember their AC much less have that level of prep done.
Also in that scenario he has 0 AoE effects, conditions, environmental effects...
Again it's a poor example Imo
How is an example of someone doing it well a terrible example?! Good lord. Without an example like this one ALL we would have are your examples, and everyone would think the spell is terrible all of the time. Which it isn't, as demonstrated quite handily in the video above.
Here is an example of the worst kind of execution of these spells.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LyE56aVFkw
Because it's in a VTT, run by someone who has intensive knowledge of the creatures the spell can use, and had 0 complications other then positioning.
It doesn't deal with people who don't do an hour long video on the matter, are rolling IRL, or have complications like AoE enemies, enemies that impose conditions, or really anything complicated at all....
His average turn took 6 seconds less time than an average turn of either of the other two player's. Plus, that spell, cast several times, pretty much won that fight, that was 3 times (plus a little more) that of a deadly CR. If his average turn took twice as long, it would be worth it.
The experience level of the people you are giving as examples, several times now, are going to have a looooong turn no matter what they play or are doing on their turn(s). All of the stuff that makes them less equipped to run a conjure spell efficiently also makes them less equipped to run any character efficiently.
Yes and the turns will be exponentially longer with that many summons or I as a DM will have to track it and I have enough to track I don't need that extra responsibility.
Again he is a poor example as he knows what the **** he is doing...
Also the VTT helps a lot as you can mass roll.
Also he had no complications like rolling for 8 STR saves then having to mark which ones are prone and therefore only have half movement the next turn... Oh also the creature has an ability that allows it to roll fire damage when it's hit. Now I roll this for all 8 creatures.
Wait this one has a fear effect... Which ones are frightened? They can't move towards the creature... And is it in LOS? If so they are at disadvantage to attack.
But wait they have pack tactics so they actually roll straight..
It can get silly fast and he 0 complications.
Plus I'm sure he didn't count the extra time the DM has to do to deal with the creatures off turn but that didn't count I guess....