I really enjoy the ranger spell Hail of Thorns. I think it's very potent and functional on its own, and even better when paired with other staples in the ranger's tool kit, like Hunter's Mark. Rangers have limited known spells from a spell list on the smaller side of average, but in that spell list are some truly fun and highly effective options.
While martial classes like fighters, paladins, and rogues tend to focus more on dealing single target damage (a fine strategy), and full spellcasting classes tend to focus on control, utility, and area of effect damage, rangers have a healthy blend of the two. They excel at neither, but can do both just fine. Many folks are aware of, and tend to focus on, the single target damage dealing ranger, using hunter's mark, feats, and multiclassing with rogue. But there are many times in many games, even more common when there are few to no spellcasters in the party, where taking out several smaller enemies at once is the better or only option. Dealing 50 damage to an enemy with 10 hit points mean you dealt 10 points of damage. When fighting a big dragon boss, single target damage is great, and the way to go 100% of the time. When fighting 20 orcs, area of effect damage is supreme, and big damage single strikes are wasted.
In tier 2 play, levels 5 through 10, adventurers have a wide list of creatures that are potential enemies that would almost certainly be fought in larger groups, a perfect recipe for a spell like Hail of Thorns! In tier 2, a baseline ranger with a longbow and a decent dexterity score is doing about 8.5 (1d8 + 4) damage twice per turn. (All rangers also get some kind of level 3 subclass damage boost, generally broken down to about 3.5 extra damage per round, but I'm not getting that specific at the moment.) Rangers get 2nd level spells at 5th level, and that is about when I personally start thinking about using Hail of Thorns. A 2nd level Hail of Thorns deals about 11 (2d10) damage to an initial target and again to each creature next to that target. This can be really great as the larger the group of enemies you're firing into the more damage this spell dishes out (as do all area of effect damage spells). (One fun point is this spell effects all creatures within 5 feet of the initial creature, so if that initial creature is large, huge, or bigger, that is more and more potential area of effect and damage output.)
I figure, from a resource management perspective, 2nd level spell slots for a ranger is about equivalent to 3rd and 4th level spell slots for a full spellcaster. Here is a filtered list of all of the Monster Manual creatures that have 20 or less hit points. And here is a filtered list of creatures that have 11 or less hit points. These are all potential enemies that can be taken out with Hail of Thorns, and the more the merrier. A paladin or fighter with a longsword can do 10.5 (1d8 +2 + 4) damage twice per turn when they are toe to toe with the enemies. If they use a resource, such as an Action Surge or Divine Smite, they can up that damage considerably, but they are mostly still doing single target damage (The fighter less so than the paladin. The fighter can spread those extra two attacks around, likely not downing one enemy per hit, while a paladin can use a 1st level divine smite, adding 9 extra damage to a single enemy once, not the most efficient use of a resource.). A rogue with a shortbow is doing about 21.5 damage, but all to a single target, whether that target has 1 hit point or 20 hit points. A Burning Hands or Thunder Wave spell cast with 3rd or 4th level spell slot will do about 17.5 to 22.5 damage each, to a small group of enemies. Fireball and the like obviously have a larger area of effect, but that can sometimes be a burden given the layout of the battle at hand and the location of allies, and even then we are talking about 28 damage per creature.
All of this puts Hail of Thorns in a very nice place alongside Hunter's Mark for a Ranger combat option. Single big enemy or lots of smaller enemies. Rangers have choices for both. Although Hail of Thorns requires concentration, that requirement is very brief for the spell to do it's work, so this can be an effective option even for a ranger in melee combat that wants to throw a dagger, hand axe, or spear.
Some rangers focus their subclass more on single target damage, where as some do better with larger groups of smaller enemies. In my opinion the Player's Handbook rangers have great options for dealing with larger groups (Horde Breaker and Volley, or a Panther and Giant Crab). Some newer subclasses do as well, like the Fey Wanderer. Many rangers can deal great single target damage, like the Hunter, Swarmkeeper, and Gloom Stalker. Each of these subclass have access to spells to supplement the thing their subclass does well.
I'd love to hear others positive experiences of in play use of Hail of Thorns!
An extreme example of the use of Hail of Thorns could be it compared to Swift Quiver. Both use a precious 5th level spell slot at high level play. But if you think a particular combat is going to be short lived and the situation warrants the use of hitting multiple targets together (perhaps either the last round with many already injured enemies or lots and lots of minions at the start of a combat far away), then Hail of Thorns might be the better choice.
(I'm not taking magic weapons or the crossbow expert or sharpshooter feats into account here. Do so if you please.)
For a 3 round combat, using swift quiver will net you an additional 13 damage per round for the cost of a 5th level spell slot, your bonus action each round, and your concentration the entire time. In the same 3 round combat, if you hit two enemies with hail of thorns (two next to one another) you will net 18 damage per round using a 5th level spell slot, your bonus action on turn 1, and your concentration for the first round. And hail of thorns does better and better if you manage to get 3 or more enemies in its effect range. 27.5 damage per round with 3 enemies, 36.5 damage per round with 4 enemies, etc.
This is spell slot powered damage, so it is magic damage as well. Sometimes even the mighty Conjure Animals is better left on the sidelines when only magic damage will do.
Your odd 4th level spell slots in particular might be better served with a 4th level hail of thorns versus a 4th level conjure animals, given the situation.
A paladin's divine smite (restricted to a melee weapon attack) deals an average of 18 additional damage at the cost of a 4th level spell slot. A ranger with a longbow using the same 4th level spell slot is doing an average of 22 additional damage...to the initial target! 22 single target damage! Then each creature within 5 feet of the initial target gets the same treatment of 22 additional damage to each of them, meaning more like 44+ average additional damage for a 4th level spell slot. And this can be dealt at 150 feet+ away using a longbow. It would take hunter's mark over 6 rounds of combat to equal the damage of only two targets of a 4th level hail of thorns, no matter which spell slot you used.
Many creatures have mounts in D&D, more and more do as the game gets higher in levels. Here is a filtered list of monsters in the monster manual that are larger or larger, and have 47 or less hit points, many of which could be a mount for a PC or NPC. Most of these creatures have low armor class and low enough hit points to be taken out with a 4th level hail of thorns (hitting the mount) and the ranger's two attacks and subclass damage bump. On top of that, the rider would take some damage from the hail of thorns and very likely from the fall once the mount is defeated. Even the most powerful steed options from the paladin spell Find Greater Steed could potentially be taken out in a single turn by a 4th level hail of thorns, especially if the ranger had a decent magic bow.
A 4th level spell slot used for hail of thorns deals about 32 damage each to two creatures using an arrow for each creature. Here is a filtered list of all of the creatures in the monster manual that have 32 or less hit points. A ranger could take out two of these in one turn using a 4th level slot. And here is a list of all of the creatures in the monster manual that have 22 or less hit points, meaning they could be defeated by only the splash damage of a 4th level hail of thorns.
You should tag the spells with tooltips so hovering your mouse over them works properly. You can do so by putting the word "spell" in square brackets before the spell name, and then "/spell" in square brackets after it, like so:
Same trick works with "monster" to grant tooltips to something like an orc.
Bear in mind that if you want to do math on Hail of Thorns, you need to make some assumption about the targets' save bonuses and then stick to that assumption to allow for the success rate on the Dex save. An L1 Hail of Thorns deals 5.5 damage per failed save and 2.5 damage per successful save, on average. If the DC is 13 and the target has a +0, that's a net average of 4.3 damage per target. Note the radical difference from how Divine Smite works, where there's no save (which also has the additional benefit that it's subject to doubling on a critical hit) - it's bad math to ignore the save mechanic on the damage. I'm not saying you have to use 4.3 for your numbers, but you do have to assume something about the save rate and be explicit about that assumption. You appear to have assumed all targets fail their saves, which leads to faulty comparisons. Even the aforementioned orcs have a +1 to their Dex saves - they won't have a 100% failure rate against most Rangers.
If you or someone want to do some fancy math and breakdown all of the numbers with armor classes, saving throws, to hit chances, average damage and the like, it would be neat to see. That’s not really the point I’m making. More of a general conversation. I mean, we can talk about critical hits on divine smites, but situationally, that is just more wasted damage on a 10 hit point goblin. We would also have to account for terms of engagement and starting distance. Smite needs a melee attack, short range. Many times the battle could be in round two or three before a smite is viable. And isn’t the rule of thumb to smite early or not at all?
There’s lots of potential for situational setups and percentages to by theorized and calculated. I find that very interesting and informative to a point. After which it’s more math exercise than actual play experience.
One thing to note with hail of thorns - that 5’ from the target really means a 15’ diameter the 5’ of the target and 5’ on either side (and front and back) giving a potential max of 9 targets. If you can manage to channel foes into a 10-20’ wide channel you can do tremendous damage to minions at least.
Yes! Just another example of how rangers excel in the game when they aren’t in a favored terrain or hunting a favored enemy. Urban alleys, buildings and sewers? Hail of thorns lives tight spaces! Dungeons, castles, and caves? Hail of thorns loves it!
Getting (4.3*x)*x magical damage at range is wonderful and something that is unique to rangers in the martial world.
Here is a list of the conditions that impose disadvantage on dexterity saving throws or cause automatic failures of dexterity saving throws.
Unconscious, stunned, restrained, petrified, and paralyzed.
For the sake of being a thread in the ranger forum, I’ll mention that several beast stat blocks in the monster manual, legal choices for a beast companion, impose the restrained condition automatically on a hit.
Can anyone tell me why rangers cant get this spell until level 3, when its a level 1 spell like hunters mark?
you can get it at level 2. rangers don't get spell casting until 2nd level.
I will say that maybe waiting till level 3 or 4 is a better build because dms tend not to use large groups of enemies that can be Hit by AOE until then. otherwise the balance could become deadly. This is Not a hard rule but a general guideline.
Im playing a campaign with a ranger and he asked me which spells he thinks he should pick. dndbeyond doesnt show it on the list at level 2, but when we put him at level 3, it shows up.
note: hail of thorns isn't an srd spell. Is there any chance they didn't own the content but then gained access? (joined a "shared" campaign or bought content)
I really enjoy the ranger spell Hail of Thorns. I think it's very potent and functional on its own, and even better when paired with other staples in the ranger's tool kit, like Hunter's Mark. Rangers have limited known spells from a spell list on the smaller side of average, but in that spell list are some truly fun and highly effective options.
While martial classes like fighters, paladins, and rogues tend to focus more on dealing single target damage (a fine strategy), and full spellcasting classes tend to focus on control, utility, and area of effect damage, rangers have a healthy blend of the two. They excel at neither, but can do both just fine. Many folks are aware of, and tend to focus on, the single target damage dealing ranger, using hunter's mark, feats, and multiclassing with rogue. But there are many times in many games, even more common when there are few to no spellcasters in the party, where taking out several smaller enemies at once is the better or only option. Dealing 50 damage to an enemy with 10 hit points mean you dealt 10 points of damage. When fighting a big dragon boss, single target damage is great, and the way to go 100% of the time. When fighting 20 orcs, area of effect damage is supreme, and big damage single strikes are wasted.
In tier 2 play, levels 5 through 10, adventurers have a wide list of creatures that are potential enemies that would almost certainly be fought in larger groups, a perfect recipe for a spell like Hail of Thorns! In tier 2, a baseline ranger with a longbow and a decent dexterity score is doing about 8.5 (1d8 + 4) damage twice per turn. (All rangers also get some kind of level 3 subclass damage boost, generally broken down to about 3.5 extra damage per round, but I'm not getting that specific at the moment.) Rangers get 2nd level spells at 5th level, and that is about when I personally start thinking about using Hail of Thorns. A 2nd level Hail of Thorns deals about 11 (2d10) damage to an initial target and again to each creature next to that target. This can be really great as the larger the group of enemies you're firing into the more damage this spell dishes out (as do all area of effect damage spells). (One fun point is this spell effects all creatures within 5 feet of the initial creature, so if that initial creature is large, huge, or bigger, that is more and more potential area of effect and damage output.)
I figure, from a resource management perspective, 2nd level spell slots for a ranger is about equivalent to 3rd and 4th level spell slots for a full spellcaster. Here is a filtered list of all of the Monster Manual creatures that have 20 or less hit points. And here is a filtered list of creatures that have 11 or less hit points. These are all potential enemies that can be taken out with Hail of Thorns, and the more the merrier. A paladin or fighter with a longsword can do 10.5 (1d8 +2 + 4) damage twice per turn when they are toe to toe with the enemies. If they use a resource, such as an Action Surge or Divine Smite, they can up that damage considerably, but they are mostly still doing single target damage (The fighter less so than the paladin. The fighter can spread those extra two attacks around, likely not downing one enemy per hit, while a paladin can use a 1st level divine smite, adding 9 extra damage to a single enemy once, not the most efficient use of a resource.). A rogue with a shortbow is doing about 21.5 damage, but all to a single target, whether that target has 1 hit point or 20 hit points. A Burning Hands or Thunder Wave spell cast with 3rd or 4th level spell slot will do about 17.5 to 22.5 damage each, to a small group of enemies. Fireball and the like obviously have a larger area of effect, but that can sometimes be a burden given the layout of the battle at hand and the location of allies, and even then we are talking about 28 damage per creature.
All of this puts Hail of Thorns in a very nice place alongside Hunter's Mark for a Ranger combat option. Single big enemy or lots of smaller enemies. Rangers have choices for both. Although Hail of Thorns requires concentration, that requirement is very brief for the spell to do it's work, so this can be an effective option even for a ranger in melee combat that wants to throw a dagger, hand axe, or spear.
Some rangers focus their subclass more on single target damage, where as some do better with larger groups of smaller enemies. In my opinion the Player's Handbook rangers have great options for dealing with larger groups (Horde Breaker and Volley, or a Panther and Giant Crab). Some newer subclasses do as well, like the Fey Wanderer. Many rangers can deal great single target damage, like the Hunter, Swarmkeeper, and Gloom Stalker. Each of these subclass have access to spells to supplement the thing their subclass does well.
I'd love to hear others positive experiences of in play use of Hail of Thorns!
An extreme example of the use of Hail of Thorns could be it compared to Swift Quiver. Both use a precious 5th level spell slot at high level play. But if you think a particular combat is going to be short lived and the situation warrants the use of hitting multiple targets together (perhaps either the last round with many already injured enemies or lots and lots of minions at the start of a combat far away), then Hail of Thorns might be the better choice.
(I'm not taking magic weapons or the crossbow expert or sharpshooter feats into account here. Do so if you please.)
For a 3 round combat, using swift quiver will net you an additional 13 damage per round for the cost of a 5th level spell slot, your bonus action each round, and your concentration the entire time. In the same 3 round combat, if you hit two enemies with hail of thorns (two next to one another) you will net 18 damage per round using a 5th level spell slot, your bonus action on turn 1, and your concentration for the first round. And hail of thorns does better and better if you manage to get 3 or more enemies in its effect range. 27.5 damage per round with 3 enemies, 36.5 damage per round with 4 enemies, etc.
This is spell slot powered damage, so it is magic damage as well. Sometimes even the mighty Conjure Animals is better left on the sidelines when only magic damage will do.
Your odd 4th level spell slots in particular might be better served with a 4th level hail of thorns versus a 4th level conjure animals, given the situation.
In tier 3 we have some more interesting numbers.
A paladin's divine smite (restricted to a melee weapon attack) deals an average of 18 additional damage at the cost of a 4th level spell slot. A ranger with a longbow using the same 4th level spell slot is doing an average of 22 additional damage...to the initial target! 22 single target damage! Then each creature within 5 feet of the initial target gets the same treatment of 22 additional damage to each of them, meaning more like 44+ average additional damage for a 4th level spell slot. And this can be dealt at 150 feet+ away using a longbow. It would take hunter's mark over 6 rounds of combat to equal the damage of only two targets of a 4th level hail of thorns, no matter which spell slot you used.
Many creatures have mounts in D&D, more and more do as the game gets higher in levels. Here is a filtered list of monsters in the monster manual that are larger or larger, and have 47 or less hit points, many of which could be a mount for a PC or NPC. Most of these creatures have low armor class and low enough hit points to be taken out with a 4th level hail of thorns (hitting the mount) and the ranger's two attacks and subclass damage bump. On top of that, the rider would take some damage from the hail of thorns and very likely from the fall once the mount is defeated. Even the most powerful steed options from the paladin spell Find Greater Steed could potentially be taken out in a single turn by a 4th level hail of thorns, especially if the ranger had a decent magic bow.
A 4th level spell slot used for hail of thorns deals about 32 damage each to two creatures using an arrow for each creature. Here is a filtered list of all of the creatures in the monster manual that have 32 or less hit points. A ranger could take out two of these in one turn using a 4th level slot. And here is a list of all of the creatures in the monster manual that have 22 or less hit points, meaning they could be defeated by only the splash damage of a 4th level hail of thorns.
You should tag the spells with tooltips so hovering your mouse over them works properly. You can do so by putting the word "spell" in square brackets before the spell name, and then "/spell" in square brackets after it, like so:
Same trick works with "monster" to grant tooltips to something like an orc.
Bear in mind that if you want to do math on Hail of Thorns, you need to make some assumption about the targets' save bonuses and then stick to that assumption to allow for the success rate on the Dex save. An L1 Hail of Thorns deals 5.5 damage per failed save and 2.5 damage per successful save, on average. If the DC is 13 and the target has a +0, that's a net average of 4.3 damage per target. Note the radical difference from how Divine Smite works, where there's no save (which also has the additional benefit that it's subject to doubling on a critical hit) - it's bad math to ignore the save mechanic on the damage. I'm not saying you have to use 4.3 for your numbers, but you do have to assume something about the save rate and be explicit about that assumption. You appear to have assumed all targets fail their saves, which leads to faulty comparisons. Even the aforementioned orcs have a +1 to their Dex saves - they won't have a 100% failure rate against most Rangers.
If you or someone want to do some fancy math and breakdown all of the numbers with armor classes, saving throws, to hit chances, average damage and the like, it would be neat to see. That’s not really the point I’m making. More of a general conversation. I mean, we can talk about critical hits on divine smites, but situationally, that is just more wasted damage on a 10 hit point goblin. We would also have to account for terms of engagement and starting distance. Smite needs a melee attack, short range. Many times the battle could be in round two or three before a smite is viable. And isn’t the rule of thumb to smite early or not at all?
There’s lots of potential for situational setups and percentages to by theorized and calculated. I find that very interesting and informative to a point. After which it’s more math exercise than actual play experience.
One thing to note with hail of thorns - that 5’ from the target really means a 15’ diameter the 5’ of the target and 5’ on either side (and front and back) giving a potential max of 9 targets. If you can manage to channel foes into a 10-20’ wide channel you can do tremendous damage to minions at least.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes! Just another example of how rangers excel in the game when they aren’t in a favored terrain or hunting a favored enemy. Urban alleys, buildings and sewers? Hail of thorns lives tight spaces! Dungeons, castles, and caves? Hail of thorns loves it!
Getting (4.3*x)*x magical damage at range is wonderful and something that is unique to rangers in the martial world.
Yep. - “ If space is tight, Hail of Thorns is right!”
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Here is a list of the conditions that impose disadvantage on dexterity saving throws or cause automatic failures of dexterity saving throws.
Unconscious, stunned, restrained, petrified, and paralyzed.
For the sake of being a thread in the ranger forum, I’ll mention that several beast stat blocks in the monster manual, legal choices for a beast companion, impose the restrained condition automatically on a hit.
And many others can knock prone which is almost as good.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Thank you! I thought it was automatic and was really careful with spelling, but just re-read one of my posts last night and noticed.
Can anyone tell me why rangers cant get this spell until level 3, when its a level 1 spell like hunters mark?
you can get it at level 2. rangers don't get spell casting until 2nd level.
I will say that maybe waiting till level 3 or 4 is a better build because dms tend not to use large groups of enemies that can be Hit by AOE until then. otherwise the balance could become deadly. This is Not a hard rule but a general guideline.
Which spell? Hail of thornes we get as a Ranger 2nd level and it is a 1st lvl spell.
Im playing a campaign with a ranger and he asked me which spells he thinks he should pick. dndbeyond doesnt show it on the list at level 2, but when we put him at level 3, it shows up.
maybe its a bug on DnDBeyonds end.
note: hail of thorns isn't an srd spell. Is there any chance they didn't own the content but then gained access? (joined a "shared" campaign or bought content)
I just tried creating a ranger and hail of thorns showed up on the spell selection list as a L 2 ranger. Not sure why your not seeing it til L3.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.