I can’t believe I’m arguing again about something that the other person has definitely never done in a game.
What does your table do between battles?
Talk and travel but the latter is hardly a 1/3 of the game.... It's hardly 1/10 of the game for me.
Also just reading the rules there is no way any of that is taking more than 20min to sort out.
You are talking about 20 minutes to do everything that isn't combat? Everything in the game that isn't combat takes a total of 20 minutes of a 3-hour session?
I can’t believe I’m arguing again about something that the other person has definitely never done in a game.
What does your table do between battles?
And I can't believe you're again dismissing other people's opinions and experience as if you're the only one who knows how to play the game. A rather common occurrence in Ranger topics you're involved in to be fair. ^^
What my table does between battles? All kinds of things. Battles are honestly not even the majority of what we spend our time with. They are few in between and meaningful, not just ther to fill the day.
Primus is literally telling me that an entire class and part of the game is bad and boring and that is indirectly dismissing MY opinions and experience. His personal experience doesn't even touch on the parts of the game that exist and I enjoy. So if I come off defensive, you are correct.
I can’t believe I’m arguing again about something that the other person has definitely never done in a game.
What does your table do between battles?
Talk and travel but the latter is hardly a 1/3 of the game.... It's hardly 1/10 of the game for me.
Also just reading the rules there is no way any of that is taking more than 20min to sort out.
You are talking about 20 minutes to do everything that isn't combat? Everything in the game that isn't combat takes a total of 20 minutes of a 3-hour session?
No I'm specifically addressing the Travel mechanics I posted.
They are basically what I can find for "Exploration" that doesn't involve encounters (filed under combat) or parlays with creatures (filed under social encounters)
Overall they take less than 10 minutes in my experience to resolve and do not add a lot to the game as a whole.
Rangers with NE take that time down to less than that as they forgo most of the rolls needed here.
1. Travel should take zero minutes if it's just travel. Walking down a round through a known well established area should be no time. Being good at travel/exploration allows the ranger to do more. It isn't simply skipping over everything, its opening the doors for more things doe faster, which in turn allows for more things in the game for the story and other PCs.
2. I want to say if find it interesting that some people think that the ranger abilities makes exploration too easy, handwaved, or whatever, on a forum that places so much focus on optimizing builds for combat, to do what? Make combat easier? Does that mean people prefer builds that are NOT optimized for combat so combat is more challenging? Seems hypocritical and/or personal biased.
3. Exploration is everything else about the game that literally isn't combat and social interaction. My best advice for you is to read older versions of the game to learn how exploration is part of the game. I'm sorry 5E failed in presenting material within the rules to instruct us all on how to use this huge part if the game.
Ok double checked beguiling twist and ya, not great. The first creature has to succeed on the check then you can have a different creature roll. But if that creature fails it is only charmed by you, not by you and the fey creature with 30 health... at level 11. So the way you are using beguiling twist is basically just getting soft advantage, and that is good but not a reason to use a whole action for a summon creature that will die to the first big AOE instead of trying to presummon it the normal way.
Keep in mind a charmed creature can not harm the Fey, that makes them extremely hard to kill. Yes, a big damage AOE that he fails a save on will kill him (and probably most of the wizards in the party). But such an enemy will likely be the first adversary he targets with charm and if he misses the charm he will position himself so the enemy needs to waste it on him instead of the rest of the party. Let's turn this argument upside down - At llth level, I am using a single 3rd level spell to cause an enemy to lose an entire high-damage AOE action (and probably need a recharge). That is a pretty good trade. And that is if he FAILS to charm the BBEG. If he lands the charm he parks himself in the middle of the squishies and now the enemy can't effectively use the AOE at all. On the other hand, if I presummon it I need concentration and in addition if I lose initiative I may lose the Fey to that AOE before it is even my turn and before he has a chance to target the BBEG.
Agaisnt more melee oriented enemies, it can't attack you or the Fey, yet both of you can attack him and get AOOs against it if it leaves your reach (and cancel the charm only if you hit and damage it). This will take away entire actions for the enemy or conversely give you free attacks. And remember this is one charm per Fey you have on the field and it is a bonus action in addition to their attack AND in addition to their misty step. Each Fey gets to attack, misty step and charm every single turn.
Beguiling twist turns that 1-turn charm into a 1-minute concentration free charm or frighten on another enemy. Which is time to point out something else - the frightened condition restricts movement, so if you have an enemy that is already charmed and you frighten him as well, now he can't attack you and he ca't move closer to you. Attack him, then move yourself (no AOO because he is charmed) so you are between him and your allies and he can't approach your allies.
This combination is awesome because of the extremely high volume of attacks and charms you are throwing out. Once you have 4 Fey on the field you are making a total of 6 attacks a turn (more some were upcast), throwing out 4 charms a turn, twisting one charm that saves and the misty step means the fey can. Even on the first turn it is a boost in action economy and it goes up every turn thereafter.
Finally strength ranger doesn't have the tools needed to perform the tasks of a strength martial. It doesn't keep up in damage or have any features to make grappling better and falls behind dex or full wisdom rangers pretty heavily in damage and utility.
A strength Ranger has the same strength as any character with that number. It is math. A Ranger with a 16 strength and a d12 weapon does more damage with his weapon than a Ranger with a 16 dex and a d8 weapon. So they are ahead in weapon damage compared to dex or wisdom.
I would agree they do lose in utitlity, specifically ability checks since there are more that use dex and wisdom than use strength, but that is true of any player. Any player, regardless of class, who invests more in dexterity will have better skills than a player who puts that same investment in strength.
edit: wanted to note that if ranger is 75% damage of Fighter, that means fighter is 150% of ranger. (also I think rogue falls off at higher levels too. Actually technically most martials fall off at higher levels, but rogue, ranger, monk suffer the worst, followed by barbarian, than paladin and finally fighter, again this is about their high level features, their 7,9,10 and 11 level abilities not their 1-6 features. ECM03 has been one of the few people actually arguing high level features of a single subclass, obviously because level 7 and 11 for ranger are dominated by their subclass features.).
I don't think you can just make this blanket statement. You need to consider spells and subclass abilities. A swarmkeeper who throws down spike growth is going to do a crap ton of damage using only his class and subclass abilities. Enough I think to outrun most other martial builds through an adventuring day.
1. Travel should take zero minutes if it's just travel. Walking down a round through a known well established area should be no time. Being good at travel/exploration allows the ranger to do more. It isn't simply skipping over everything, its opening the doors for more things doe faster, which in turn allows for more things in the game for the story and other PCs.
2. I want to say if find it interesting that some people think that the ranger abilities makes exploration too easy, handwaved, or whatever, on a forum that places so much focus on optimizing builds for combat, to do what? Make combat easier? Does that mean people prefer builds that are NOT optimized for combat so combat is more challenging? Seems hypocritical and/or personal biased.
3. Exploration is everything else about the game that literally isn't combat and social interaction. My best advice for you is to read older versions of the game to learn how exploration is part of the game. I'm sorry 5E failed in presenting material within the rules to instruct us all on how to use this huge part if the game.
I agree that 5e failed to provide good examples of exploring and have engaging exploration aspects.
Several homebrew fixes exist which my favorite is the one that presents an area with a statblocks for the terrain that makes each area unique and flavorful. You could give rangers benefits here to make their involvement more engaging.
That's the unfortunate reality of NE currently as it doesn't really make the exploration aspect interesting but kinda handwaves it
I disagree pretty heavily with medicine and insight. Medicine is related to the person not the terrain. Same with insight. Tools are cool, if you are using int or wisdom and not a different attribute like dex so depends there. And sure but again this is argument for NE over DE not of a ranger over 5 vs multiclass.
It depends on what the check is. Medicine check to make an herbal remedy. Even without that though, the big difference is in Nature and Survival where I don't even need proficiency for expertise, so I could have proficiency in 2 more skills (call it these skills)
To get there with fey, I think you are over estimating the fey a bit. First, yes no concentration, but only lasts 1 minute if so, this means you are using your action in combat to summon a pet that became mostly inefficient about 3 levels ago. Then you are counting on Beguiling twist, which I need to re-read on the trigger, but I feel like there is something weird going on here, and I am assuming you are playing druidic warrior wisdom based ranger to make it even remotely consistent and still probably better spells for a druid to use. Also free cast, if you have 2 more spell slots free cast is worse cus it is 1 more cast instead of 2. If you have a higher level spell slot, casting once for free is worse than having an extra upcast.
A Mirtful Fey is extremely effecient because it does ok damage, has a charm and cand do these turn after turn and it also has extreme mobility enabling battlefield control through positioing. Not needing concentration is a huge boost for just about any concentration spell.
A Higher level cast gives the Fey more attacks, better AC and better hps, but the spell is mostly a control spell that does some damage so I don't generally upcast it. Ocasionally I will upcast it at 4th level just for the extra attack, but going beyond that is not usually worth it.
Ok double checked beguiling twist and ya, not great. The first creature has to succeed on the check then you can have a different creature roll. But if that creature fails it is only charmed by you, not by you and the fey creature with 30 health... at level 11. So the way you are using beguiling twist is basically just getting soft advantage, and that is good but not a reason to use a whole action for a summon creature that will die to the first big AOE instead of trying to presummon it the normal way.
Keep in mind a charmed creature can not harm the Fey, that makes them extremely hard to kill. Yes, a big damage AOE that he fails a save on will kill him (and probably most of the wizards in the party). But such an enemy will likely be the first adversary he targets with charm and if he misses the charm he will position himself so the enemy needs to waste it on him instead of the rest of the party. Let's turn this argument upside down - At llth level, I am using a single 3rd level spell to cause an enemy to lose an entire high-damage AOE action (and probably need a recharge). That is a pretty good trade. And that is if he FAILS to charm the BBEG. If he lands the charm he parks himself in the middle of the squishies and now the enemy can't effectively use the AOE at all. On the other hand, if I presummon it I need concentration and in addition if I lose initiative I may lose the Fey to that AOE before it is even my turn and before he has a chance to target the BBEG.
Agaisnt more melee oriented enemies, it can't attack you or the Fey, yet both of you can attack him and get AOOs against it if it leaves your reach (and cancel the charm only if you hit and damage it). This will take away entire actions for the enemy or conversely give you free attacks. And remember this is one charm per Fey you have on the field and it is a bonus action in addition to their attack AND in addition to their misty step. Each Fey gets to attack, misty step and charm every single turn.
Beguiling twist turns that 1-turn charm into a 1-minute concentration free charm or frighten on another enemy. Which is time to point out something else - the frightened condition restricts movement, so if you have an enemy that is already charmed and you frighten him as well, now he can't attack you and he ca't move closer to you. Attack him, then move yourself (no AOO because he is charmed) so you are between him and your allies and he can't approach your allies.
This combination is awesome because of the extremely high volume of attacks and charms you are throwing out. Once you have 4 Fey on the field you are making a total of 6 attacks a turn (more some were upcast), throwing out 4 charms a turn, twisting one charm that saves and the misty step means the fey can. Even on the first turn it is a boost in action economy and it goes up every turn thereafter.
Finally strength ranger doesn't have the tools needed to perform the tasks of a strength martial. It doesn't keep up in damage or have any features to make grappling better and falls behind dex or full wisdom rangers pretty heavily in damage and utility.
A strength Ranger has the same strength as any character with that number. It is math. A Ranger with a 16 strength and a d12 weapon does more damage with his weapon than a Ranger with a 16 dex and a d8 weapon. So they are ahead in weapon damage compared to dex or wisdom.
I would agree they do lose in utitlity, specifically ability checks since there are more that use dex and wisdom than use strength, but that is true of any player. Any player, regardless of class, who invests more in dexterity will have better skills than a player who puts that same investment in strength.
edit: wanted to note that if ranger is 75% damage of Fighter, that means fighter is 150% of ranger. (also I think rogue falls off at higher levels too. Actually technically most martials fall off at higher levels, but rogue, ranger, monk suffer the worst, followed by barbarian, than paladin and finally fighter, again this is about their high level features, their 7,9,10 and 11 level abilities not their 1-6 features. ECM03 has been one of the few people actually arguing high level features of a single subclass, obviously because level 7 and 11 for ranger are dominated by their subclass features.).
I don't think you can just make this blanket statement. You need to consider spells and subclass abilities. A swarmkeeper who throws down spike growth is going to do a crap ton of damage using only his class and subclass abilities. Enough I think to outrun most other martial builds through an adventuring day.
Ok so you missed something very important. If the Fey succeeds at charming then the creature is charmed by the fey AND you. If it fails and you beguiling twist the creature is charmed by you and NOT the fey meaning the fey no longer has any protection what so ever. And while it was a good use of a spell at 5th level when the druid got it, by around level 8 or so the more challenging monsters are largely making this ability into a ribbon spell rather than what your go to should be especially if you are not upcasting it. Which the ranger doesn't have the slots to do.
Finally the swarm keeper trick is something you can do at level 5 when you get spike growth. If you multi-class after getting level 3 with ranger to druid you can do it at level 6, with much more spell slots on its way as you continue to level up druid. My argument is about high level Ranger. About deciding to take it over multi-classing out for better features and abilities. About the lack of incentive to stick with ranger past 5 or 6.
Finally, I said martial prowess, if you have a druid with spike growth in your party, your fighter can force movement and still hit 3 times. I don't expect or want the ranger to be as good at martial abilities as a fighter, but to go from 90-95% of a fighter and drop effectiveness just because you all leveled up seems bad without much of a trade. Everyone gets a damage boost, why does the ranger, barbarian, rogue and monk have to have the worst ones.
Ok double checked beguiling twist and ya, not great. The first creature has to succeed on the check then you can have a different creature roll. But if that creature fails it is only charmed by you, not by you and the fey creature with 30 health... at level 11. So the way you are using beguiling twist is basically just getting soft advantage, and that is good but not a reason to use a whole action for a summon creature that will die to the first big AOE instead of trying to presummon it the normal way.
Keep in mind a charmed creature can not harm the Fey, that makes them extremely hard to kill. Yes, a big damage AOE that he fails a save on will kill him (and probably most of the wizards in the party). But such an enemy will likely be the first adversary he targets with charm and if he misses the charm he will position himself so the enemy needs to waste it on him instead of the rest of the party. Let's turn this argument upside down - At llth level, I am using a single 3rd level spell to cause an enemy to lose an entire high-damage AOE action (and probably need a recharge). That is a pretty good trade. And that is if he FAILS to charm the BBEG. If he lands the charm he parks himself in the middle of the squishies and now the enemy can't effectively use the AOE at all. On the other hand, if I presummon it I need concentration and in addition if I lose initiative I may lose the Fey to that AOE before it is even my turn and before he has a chance to target the BBEG.
Agaisnt more melee oriented enemies, it can't attack you or the Fey, yet both of you can attack him and get AOOs against it if it leaves your reach (and cancel the charm only if you hit and damage it). This will take away entire actions for the enemy or conversely give you free attacks. And remember this is one charm per Fey you have on the field and it is a bonus action in addition to their attack AND in addition to their misty step. Each Fey gets to attack, misty step and charm every single turn.
Beguiling twist turns that 1-turn charm into a 1-minute concentration free charm or frighten on another enemy. Which is time to point out something else - the frightened condition restricts movement, so if you have an enemy that is already charmed and you frighten him as well, now he can't attack you and he ca't move closer to you. Attack him, then move yourself (no AOO because he is charmed) so you are between him and your allies and he can't approach your allies.
This combination is awesome because of the extremely high volume of attacks and charms you are throwing out. Once you have 4 Fey on the field you are making a total of 6 attacks a turn (more some were upcast), throwing out 4 charms a turn, twisting one charm that saves and the misty step means the fey can. Even on the first turn it is a boost in action economy and it goes up every turn thereafter.
Finally strength ranger doesn't have the tools needed to perform the tasks of a strength martial. It doesn't keep up in damage or have any features to make grappling better and falls behind dex or full wisdom rangers pretty heavily in damage and utility.
A strength Ranger has the same strength as any character with that number. It is math. A Ranger with a 16 strength and a d12 weapon does more damage with his weapon than a Ranger with a 16 dex and a d8 weapon. So they are ahead in weapon damage compared to dex or wisdom.
I would agree they do lose in utitlity, specifically ability checks since there are more that use dex and wisdom than use strength, but that is true of any player. Any player, regardless of class, who invests more in dexterity will have better skills than a player who puts that same investment in strength.
edit: wanted to note that if ranger is 75% damage of Fighter, that means fighter is 150% of ranger. (also I think rogue falls off at higher levels too. Actually technically most martials fall off at higher levels, but rogue, ranger, monk suffer the worst, followed by barbarian, than paladin and finally fighter, again this is about their high level features, their 7,9,10 and 11 level abilities not their 1-6 features. ECM03 has been one of the few people actually arguing high level features of a single subclass, obviously because level 7 and 11 for ranger are dominated by their subclass features.).
I don't think you can just make this blanket statement. You need to consider spells and subclass abilities. A swarmkeeper who throws down spike growth is going to do a crap ton of damage using only his class and subclass abilities. Enough I think to outrun most other martial builds through an adventuring day.
Right, it is a good spell, at level 5 when the druid got it. Monsters will have scaled that a single charm for a spell slot or an action is ok, but not super great, and their damage and AOE damage has scaled and their to hit has scaled that the fey does not have nearly enough protection if it fails its charm. It is not a bad spell, but it is not so good that someone should be lauding it as a reason to stick with ranger instead of multi classing at 5 to druid for better and more spells, and then the higher you go beyond 11 the worse it gets, 1 charm is always decent, but there are so many 3rd level spells that can do better than 1 charm. While the higher you go with the druid multi-class the better spells you have to cast and the better options you have for that 3rd level slot.
Oh another note, the misty step is what triggers the charm from the fey. They actually have to teleport TO the target to attempt the charm. At higher levels a failed charm and fly away is an AOO and a dead fey.
And again, pointing out what you missed with beguiling twist. It only triggers if the monster SUCCEEDS his save against a charm or fear. So NO you can NOT have a creature both charmed AND frightened. It doesn't work that way. You attempt to charm, the charm FAILS and then you can choose a DIFFERENT creature and try to charm or frighten it, but then it will only be charmed or frightened by you and not the fey creature. The scenario you are painting doesn't exist within the rules of the game.
Also, I was not comparing strength ranger to dex ranger. I was comparing strength ranger to strength paladin, or strength fighter, or strength barbarian. There aren't a lot of skills in the rangers tool kit that prop up a strength ranger. Their fighting styles don't prop that up, their spells and features are all better if used at range than if used in melee. Just look at volley vs Whirlwind attack as an example. Or the number of abilities that trigger and do the same thing regardless of what the hit is. If it is the same for ranged or melee, than it is better for ranged.
Edit: basically i would rather take an action to cast spike growth for a lower level spell slot as my first action in combat. Maybe use this as my second action in combat since no concentration. but I am definitely not spamming this. And in either case. I like this style of play better as a druid ranger. If you enjoy it, more power to you have fun, but I wouldn't call it the most effective build.
2. I want to say if find it interesting that some people think that the ranger abilities makes exploration too easy, handwaved, or whatever, on a forum that places so much focus on optimizing builds for combat, to do what? Make combat easier? Does that mean people prefer builds that are NOT optimized for combat so combat is more challenging? Seems hypocritical and/or personal biased.
There's a huge difference between skipping a lot of content and being good at it. What the Ranger does is the equivalent of if the Fighter had a feature that just lets you skip whole combat encounters because they're so good at it. They don't have that do they? No they don't, and for a good reason. Not doing something is not the same as being good at it for the player.
Also I honestly didn't get the feeling that this forum has a particularly big focus on optimizing builds for combat. It's a rather casual forum that barely has any traffic and the few that are here tend to do have extremely strong opinions about weird things. If you want to see places with an actual big focus on combat optimization then there are specific subreddits and Youtube channels I could suggest to you lol
For my brain, can one of you tell me what we are "skipping" with the ranger? Is it the navigation part?
2. I want to say if find it interesting that some people think that the ranger abilities makes exploration too easy, handwaved, or whatever, on a forum that places so much focus on optimizing builds for combat, to do what? Make combat easier? Does that mean people prefer builds that are NOT optimized for combat so combat is more challenging? Seems hypocritical and/or personal biased.
There's a huge difference between skipping a lot of content and being good at it. What the Ranger does is the equivalent of if the Fighter had a feature that just lets you skip whole combat encounters because they're so good at it. They don't have that do they? No they don't, and for a good reason. Not doing something is not the same as being good at it for the player.
Also I honestly didn't get the feeling that this forum has a particularly big focus on optimizing builds for combat. It's a rather casual forum that barely has any traffic and the few that are here tend to do have extremely strong opinions about weird things. If you want to see places with an actual big focus on combat optimization then there are specific subreddits and Youtube channels I could suggest to you lol
For my brain, can one of you tell me what we are "skipping" with the ranger? Is it the navigation part?
Navigation part is definitely a big part of it you can't get lost except by magical means, this means any adventure based around getting lost is forfeit, foraging part if you took goodberry, but that is goodberry not NE. Other than that, I wouldn't say skipping. But ya navigation is a pretty big part of the fun of exploration, in my opinion, it may not be for others and there are still some other aspects of exploration. Tracking down enemies, foraging for food. Finding odd an interesting things in the game world that can lead to other odd and interesting things.
2. I want to say if find it interesting that some people think that the ranger abilities makes exploration too easy, handwaved, or whatever, on a forum that places so much focus on optimizing builds for combat, to do what? Make combat easier? Does that mean people prefer builds that are NOT optimized for combat so combat is more challenging? Seems hypocritical and/or personal biased.
There's a huge difference between skipping a lot of content and being good at it. What the Ranger does is the equivalent of if the Fighter had a feature that just lets you skip whole combat encounters because they're so good at it. They don't have that do they? No they don't, and for a good reason. Not doing something is not the same as being good at it for the player.
Also I honestly didn't get the feeling that this forum has a particularly big focus on optimizing builds for combat. It's a rather casual forum that barely has any traffic and the few that are here tend to do have extremely strong opinions about weird things. If you want to see places with an actual big focus on combat optimization then there are specific subreddits and Youtube channels I could suggest to you lol
For my brain, can one of you tell me what we are "skipping" with the ranger? Is it the navigation part?
Navigation part is definitely a big part of it you can't get lost except by magical means, this means any adventure based around getting lost is forfeit, foraging part if you took goodberry, but that is goodberry not NE. Other than that, I wouldn't say skipping. But ya navigation is a pretty big part of the fun of exploration. In my opinion, it may not be for others and there are still some other aspects of exploration. Tracking down enemies, foraging for food. Finding odd an interesting things in the game world that can lead to other odd and interesting things.
Navigation, Map Making, and Foraging (you find twice as much which the roll is already very generous), and tracking.
You automatically can't get lost so no roll there.
You don't need a map because of this too.
Tracking you know their size, how many, and where they are going with no roll.
Foraging technically takes a roll but since you double it and the check is :
On a successful check, roll 1d6 + the character’s Wisdom modifier to determine how much food (in pounds) the character finds, then repeat the roll for water (in gallons).
Since medium creatures only need 1lb and 1 gallon of water if you have a +3 Wis mod then you are already supplying for 4 party members on a success. This is before you double it....
Since you get ADV on the check in your favored terrain it's pretty much certain you will beat the DC 15 check... And if you don't then the others can since they don't have to do the other activities since you have that covered.
So small correction and it was made earlier, you do not get advantage while in your terrain you get to double your proficiency bonus for skill checks that you are proficient in.
So small correction and it was made earlier, you do not get advantage while in your terrain you get to double your proficiency bonus for skill checks that you are proficient in.
Ok good deal thanks!
Yeah that makes it even more likely so it's even more trivial.
Right, it is a good spell, at level 5 when the druid got it. Monsters will have scaled that a single charm for a spell slot or an action is ok, but not super great, and their damage and AOE damage has scaled and their to hit has scaled that the fey does not have nearly enough protection if it fails its charm. It is not a bad spell, but it is not so good that someone should be lauding it as a reason to stick with ranger instead of multi classing at 5 to druid for better and more spells, and then the higher you go beyond 11 the worse it gets, 1 charm is always decent, but there are so many 3rd level spells that can do better than 1 charm. While the higher you go with the druid multi-class the better spells you have to cast and the better options you have for that 3rd level slot.
But he is using your spell save and that charm, by itself, with nothing else is pretty powerful. Consider in combat it is hands down better than Charm Monster (a 4th level spell), and that is without considering the damage, mobility or anything else.
If the enemy kills the Fey (which like I said is difficult) then it wasted an action doing it, which is a win for the party. But that is difficult, let me give you an examplee:
Take a Purple Worm - that is a CR15 enemy. You cast Summon Fey, the Fey charms. The purple worm is probably going to fail his save. If he doesn't, yes he can attack the Fey.
The actual chance the Fey dies in turn 1 is 15% - the chance worm makes his charm save is 20%, the chance he kills the Fey if he doesn't make his charm is 75% if he uses both attacks on him. The chance of both these things happening (fail save and kill Fey) less than 15%. Even in this unlikely event you had the purple worm use his entire turn to kill the Fey.
Now like I said earlier, most of the time in this example the Fey will land his charm, in which case the purple worm can not attack him or the Ranger. Next turn the Ranger summons a second Fey. If the worm is still charmed now the first Fey is going to use charm on the Ranger (who gets to save with advantage). If he fails no big deal, being charmed by an ally is mostly meaningless, but if he makes his save he is going to twist that and send it back to the worm as frightened. Once the Worm has a twisted frightened and charmed on him they are just going to gang up on him. Frightened prevents him from moving closer to the Ranger and charmed prevents him from attacking any of those who charmed him.
That is one example of an enemy that does over the top damage like you mentioned and it is not even ideal, because this is a lot better with multiple enemies than it is with one.
Just a lone 11th level Ranger will whittle down that CR15 purple worm with relative ease once 4 Fey are in the fight. He can attack him every single turn and the worm would have to save 5 successive times to even be able to land an attack against him and after frigthened lands he can't even approach the Ranger (or any of the Fey that did not charm him if they are in that direction.
Oh another note, the misty step is what triggers the charm from the fey. They actually have to teleport TO the target to attempt the charm. At higher levels a failed charm and fly away is an AOO and a dead fey.
No you teleport to within 10 feet, which on most enemies is far enough away to leave without an AOO. SOme enemies it is not but most it is and their move is 40 feet, which means if the charm fails they can usually get 50 feet away after the charm. If they do have reach then they can either take the AOO or disengage.
I used a purple worm as an example above and that has extrmemely high damage just to make a point, most enemies will not be able to kill a Fey on a single AOO. Even a purple worm can't do it reliably.
And again, pointing out what you missed with beguiling twist. It only triggers if the monster SUCCEEDS his save against a charm or fear. So NO you can NOT have a creature both charmed AND frightened
First of all you are assuming you are assuming there is only 1 enemy, which is not ideal for the ranger. It works a lot better when fighting multiple enemies, one saves and then you twist it to the other. I know how Beguiling Twist works, I use it a lot.
Even though it works better with multiple enemies and using it when they succeed, you can use it to frighten a single enemy by having the Fey use its charm on the Ranger (once that enemy is already charmed). The ranger gets to save with advantage and if he makes his save (which he will the majority of the time) he can twist that into fear and send it at the same single enemy that was already charmed the turn before or by another Fey. If he fails the save the Ranger is charmed by the Fey until he takes damage, which is irrelevant because he is an ally.
Once you have multiple Fey on the battlefiled this is pretty simple because you have multiple shots to charm the BBEG and once you land one if you can land the fear too you can completely control the direction he can go.
As an aside if you have twisted frightened or twisted charm on the enemy and he makes his end of turn save against that, the Ranger can also use the save on the twist to twist fear on the Fey in the same manner. As long as the Fey in qestion has a charm up he can stay next to the enemy without worry and even try to charm him again if he takes damage. He gets a save every turn so eventually that is going to be another source the Ranger can use to twist back on the enemy.
Eitehr of these are less efficient than using the enemies failed save to twist on to another but they are effective.
It doesn't work that way. You attempt to charm, the charm FAILS and then you can choose a DIFFERENT creature and try to charm or frighten it, but then it will only be charmed or frightened by you and not the fey creature. The scenario you are painting doesn't exist within the rules of the game.
Yes only by me, but two things here. Frightened completely prevents the enemy from approaching me. So all the "vulnerable" Fey has to do is move away from the enemy towards me and the enemy can not approach/follow the fey because it would have to get closer to me to do that. If he really needs to he can disengage to do this if he already failed with his charm.
The other thing about the twisted charm is that unlike the Fey charm, it is not canceled by damage. So once you have the enemy twist charmed and frightened the Ranger can just wail away on him with the Fey stepping out of the way until he makes one of those saves. Because the initiative order is always Ranger and then Fey this means it is a perfect set up. When the enemy saves on the twisted charm, the Fey swarm him the very next turn so he has to make 4 saves in succession
Also, I was not comparing strength ranger to dex ranger. I was comparing strength ranger to strength paladin, or strength fighter, or strength barbarian. There aren't a lot of skills in the rangers tool kit that prop up a strength ranger. Their fighting styles don't prop that up, their spells and features are all better if used at range than if used in melee. Just look at volley vs Whirlwind attack as an example. Or the number of abilities that trigger and do the same thing regardless of what the hit is. If it is the same for ranged or melee, than it is better for ranged.
Dueling, Defense and Blind Fighting are as good on a strength based Ranger as they are on a strength based fighter or Paladin and thrown weapon fighting is better on a strength based Ranger than on a dex based Ranger.
I would say the Ranger has more diversity and is better able to do a Ranged build than either a Paladin or a Barbarian, but that is not the same as saying they are weaker on a strength-based build. They are more flexible but since Tasha's they are not appreciably weaker IME.
Edit: basically i would rather take an action to cast spike growth for a lower level spell slot as my first action in combat. Maybe use this as my second action in combat since no concentration. but I am definitely not spamming this. And in either case. I like this style of play better as a druid ranger. If you enjoy it, more power to you have fun, but I wouldn't call it the most effective build.
Ok. But you don't have a lot of experience playing this character I do.
There are a failry large number of enemies that are immune to charm (and frightened), and more still that get advantage on saves against charm. It does not work well against them. It is pretty effecctive against most others though. It is also only marginally effective against enemies with Legendary resistance. It does eat legendaries and it eats them at an ascending cost, so if you are trying to run the enemy out of legendaries it is a good spell, but it is not a good spell if you want to ignore the legendaries and just damage him.
Ok so you missed something very important. If the Fey succeeds at charming then the creature is charmed by the fey AND you. If it fails and you beguiling twist the creature is charmed by you and NOT the fey meaning the fey no longer has any protection what so ever.
I did not miss it. A fey has superior mobility to just about anything else out there AND attacks used on the Fey are attacks NOT used on the rest of the party.
And while it was a good use of a spell at 5th level when the druid got it, by around level 8 or so the more challenging monsters are largely making this ability into a ribbon spell rather than what your go to should be especially if you are not upcasting it. Which the ranger doesn't have the slots to do.
Unless it is immune to charm it is not a ribbon. Being able to chamr multiple enemies a tunr and further being able to use a reaction to make another save when one does save is extermely powerful, especially when you are doing it with no concentration.
Let's also remember too that while the Fey damage is not great, it is not awful either. 2d6+6 turn after turn is significant and that is on a 3rd level cast. On a 4th level cast it is 4d6+14 and all ofit is either magical piercing or force.
Finally the swarm keeper trick is something you can do at level 5 when you get spike growth. If you multi-class after getting level 3 with ranger to druid you can do it at level 6, with much more spell slots on its way as you continue to level up druid. My argument is about high level Ranger.
If you multiclass at level 3 you do not have multiattack and you will do a lot less damage because your chance of hitting and having the opportunity to move the enemy is much lower.
Moreover, if you multiclass at level 5 (to get extra attack) then you will need to be level 10 before you get any 3rd level spells, where a single class Ranger gets them at level 5 (and gets better 3rd level spells to boot). You will have 3rd level slots at level 8, one level earlier than a single class Ranger, but you will actually get the spells one level later and as far as cobat spells go the list is not generally as good as the Ranger (although you can prepare so that is a plus).
If you multiclass at level 3 no multiattack. If you multiclass at level 5 you are really not ahead of a straight Ranger as a spellcaster until level 12 .... which is most of the game.
Finally, I said martial prowess, if you have a druid with spike growth in your party, your fighter can force movement and still hit 3 times. I don't expect or want the ranger to be as good at martial abilities as a fighter, but to go from 90-95% of a fighter and drop effectiveness just because you all leveled up seems bad without much of a trade. Everyone gets a damage boost, why does the ranger, barbarian, rogue and monk have to have the worst ones.
Yeah if you have a Druid in your party.,if he has spike growth if you take certain abilities as a fighter.
A lot of ifs in there, especially when in the games I play Druid is one of the fewest classes played (and the stats here on DNDB would back that up) and it is not a class i find particularly engaging.
Ok so you missed something very important. If the Fey succeeds at charming then the creature is charmed by the fey AND you. If it fails and you beguiling twist the creature is charmed by you and NOT the fey meaning the fey no longer has any protection what so ever.
I did not miss it. A fey has superior mobility to just about anything else out there AND attacks used on the Fey are attacks NOT used on the rest of the party.
And while it was a good use of a spell at 5th level when the druid got it, by around level 8 or so the more challenging monsters are largely making this ability into a ribbon spell rather than what your go to should be especially if you are not upcasting it. Which the ranger doesn't have the slots to do.
Unless it is immune to charm it is not a ribbon. Being able to chamr multiple enemies a tunr and further being able to use a reaction to make another save when one does save is extermely powerful, especially when you are doing it with no concentration.
Let's also remember too that while the Fey damage is not great, it is not awful either. 2d6+6 turn after turn is significant and that is on a 3rd level cast. On a 4th level cast it is 4d6+14 and all ofit is either magical piercing or force.
Finally the swarm keeper trick is something you can do at level 5 when you get spike growth. If you multi-class after getting level 3 with ranger to druid you can do it at level 6, with much more spell slots on its way as you continue to level up druid. My argument is about high level Ranger.
If you multiclass at level 3 you do not have multiattack and you will do a lot less damage because your chance of hitting and having the opportunity to move the enemy is much lower.
Moreover, if you multiclass at level 5 (to get extra attack) then you will need to be level 10 before you get any 3rd level spells, where a single class Ranger gets them at level 5 (and gets better 3rd level spells to boot). You will have 3rd level slots at level 8, one level earlier than a single class Ranger, but you will actually get the spells one level later and as far as cobat spells go the list is not generally as good as the Ranger (although you can prepare so that is a plus).
If you multiclass at level 3 no multiattack. If you multiclass at level 5 you are really not ahead of a straight Ranger as a spellcaster until level 12 .... which is most of the game.
Finally, I said martial prowess, if you have a druid with spike growth in your party, your fighter can force movement and still hit 3 times. I don't expect or want the ranger to be as good at martial abilities as a fighter, but to go from 90-95% of a fighter and drop effectiveness just because you all leveled up seems bad without much of a trade. Everyone gets a damage boost, why does the ranger, barbarian, rogue and monk have to have the worst ones.
Yeah if you have a Druid in your party.,if he has spike growth if you take certain abilities as a fighter.
A lot of ifs in there, especially when in the games I play Druid is one of the fewest classes played (and the stats here on DNDB would back that up) and it is not a class i find particularly engaging.
Again you as a single individual with summon fey CAN NOT charm more than 1 person. 1 person has to SUCCEED their check for you to TRY to charm the second with beguiling twist. That is still a total of 1 charm, not 2, not 3, not multiple, 1. The fey has more mobility, but it has to teleport TO the target, not AWAY from the target to trigger it's charm, cutting its mobility and actively putting it in harms way. You get 3rd level spells at level 9 with a Ranger not 5, so druid multi-class only delays it 1 level AND you have more spell slots, more spells prepared and no Ranger doesn't have "better" 3rd level spells. Yes you get better around level 12.... welcome to the thread where it is about Ranger not doing well into the 11-13 or 14 range and not having an effectiveness drop off right as we are wrapping up the campaign glad you could join us.
So ya you are just prescribing things to ranger that they simply don't get, missing the point of the thread and a few others.
Finally yes you would not have multi-attack at 5 if you didn't take ranger to 5, but the field damage is going to be more than the attack damage anyway. So you miss out on, about 1d8+6 at this point, but for the trade that by 8 you will have 3rd level spells and by 10 you will have 4th level spells and you will actually see 5th level spells at 12 by the time the campaign is coming to a close. Since you are already prescribing a play style that is "Cast a concentration spell, then cast a spell that doesn't use your concentration" for your first 2, and most important, actions with the fey thing you might as well get to that style earlier. By the time your martial bits matter in either case, the fights should be wrapping up.
Edit: Let's examine the swarm keeper/Spores druid multi-class from level 5 on. At 6 you gain druid. This gives you 2 cantrips (basically druidic fighting style freeing you up to get archery or duelist) and you can now prepare 4 more first level spells. Note this is prepare, not learn you can change these spells out giving you wonderful flexibility. The price you have paid at this level, 1 more terrain type for NE and a new FE or you have given up 5 feet of movement climbing/swim speed and 1 extra damage on average from FF (which uses your concentration. So far you are slightly less effective, but not much. Your main trick is still there and you have effectively given yourself a second fighting style and more flexibility. Level 7, you give up your ability to gain a very slow flying speed, and you gain a druid circle power and the ability to shape shift which includes animals that have climbing speeds, if you are using tasha's you also gain find familiar instead if you wish. This ability recovers on a short rest while swarm recovers on a long rest. I would call Ranger still, slightly ahead here, but this is because of swarm keeper having a solid level 7 ability, not all rangers possess this. Level 8 druid can now prepare 2nd level spells, and you now have 2 3rd level spell slots to upcast your spells with. You are giving up an ASI, This is about the point where they start to even out. Being able to upcast and having a good number of spells known and prepared starts to outpace the couple of better mobility options from the level 6 and 7 feature, in my opinion. Level 9, you give up 3rd level spells, for 1 more 3rd level spell slot and gaining back your ASI. Again Ranger is taking the lead here simply because of how good 3rd level spells are, but again it is still marginal because your martial abilities have not suffered at all, and your spell casting is still more flexible and you still have more of them. At 10th level you are able to prepare 3rd level spells and have a 4th level spell slot and you give up nature's veil, your martial abilities have not improved since 5 in either case, but now you have more casting, and more flexible casting the druid overtakes here. At 11, it doesn't get better, the druid gets their second conclave feature and gets a 2nd 4th level slot and you have given up 1 damage from the swarm. At 12, druid/ranger is in full take over. So from my perspective, no the take over happens at 10 not 12, and the only time they are really behind is 9. 6, 7, and 8 is marginally in favor of the ranger, but the flexibility of the druid spells and the druid shape shifting can it can really swing either way.
Again you as a single individual with summon fey CAN NOT charm more than 1 person. 1 person has to SUCCEED their check for you to TRY to charm the second with beguiling twist. That is still a total of 1 charm, not 2, not 3, not multiple, 1.
You absolutely 100% can. I have played this subclass a lot, on multiple tables with multiple DMs I know what I am talking about here.
At 11th level you can have up to 4 Fey on the battlefield so that is up to 4 NOT just 1. Every single Fey on the battlefield casts a charm every single turn as long as one of those charms is saved against the Ranger can use beguiling twist and put it on someone else. If there are 4 Fey on the battlefield and they all use their bonus action that is 4 people you can charm THAT TURN ALONE. If one of them succeeds on their save then you charm 3 but can twist it and charm or frighten a 4th (or put it on one of the 3 that failed). The charm lasts one minute so over the course of the battle you are going to have a ton of them floating around. It is "multiple". Going Nova by the end of turn 4 you will have cast a charm 10 times (potentially charming 10 different enemies). You will have used beguiling twist up to 4 times and retargeted if any of those succeeded on their save.
There will always be at least 3 creatures on the battlefield after summon Fey is cast in combat: the enemy, the Fey (which is immune to charm but not frightened) and the caster (Ranger who is not immune to charm but saves with advantage). Because of this you can ALWAYS put multiple effects on an enemy. Worst case with 1 Fey and 1 enemy it takes several turns, but you can still do it. With 2 or more Fey you can do multiple effects in one turn on the same enemy.
Example with just 1 Fey:
Round 1: Ranger casts summon Fey. Fey casts charm on enemy (Enemy is now charmed)
Round 2(Enemy is still charmed unless he took damage): Fey casts charm on Ranger, Ranger saves and twists that into fear on enemy - Enemy is now charmed by Fey and Ranger and frightened by Ranger
Round 3 (Enemy still charmed unless he took damage, still frightened unless he saved at the end of his turn): Fey casts charm on Ranger, Ranger saves and twists it int charm on enemy. Enemy is now charmed by Ranger and Fey, frightened by the Ranger and separately charmed by the Ranger due to beguiling twist. Since the twist effects are not canceled by damage the Fey and the Ranger wail away with impunity. The Fey steps away (not using charm) to stay out of combat. The Ranger stays in combat. The enemy can't chase the Fey because of frightened, cant attack the Ranger because of charmed. He saves against the twist at the end of his turn. If he saves against frightened then we start at it again.
Now that example had only 1 single Fey but you can do it with multiple Fey and normally you would, or you would have a spell you could cast yourself to speed up the process (cause fear being the best). With multiple Fey it is just more charms until someone succeeds and you can twist it. If you start the battle with a Fey already there you can do it on the first turn. With more Fey it is easier and faster because you have more chances to succeed on your save thereby enabling twist. The real limiting factor is 1 reaction per round, so if the enemy makes his save you will need to wait until the next round.
I know what I am talking about here because I have played this build a lot, this is basic tactics for a Fey Wanderer.
he fey has more mobility, but it has to teleport TO the target, not AWAY from the target to trigger it's charm, cutting its mobility and actively putting it in harms way.
Not "to the target" Within 10 feetof the target, which for most targets is far enough away that it can just walk away after this. Even if the target has a 10 foot reach it can still disengage because Fey Step is a bonus action and they have a 40 foot move which is more than most enemies. Not all, but most. So yes the Fey can move away from the target after using Fey step.
You get 3rd level spells at level 9 with a Ranger not 5, so druid multi-class only delays it 1 level AND you have more spell slots, more spells prepared and no Ranger doesn't have "better" 3rd level spells. Yes you get better around level 12.... welcome to the thread where it is about Ranger not doing well into the 11-13 or 14 range and not having an effectiveness drop off right as we are wrapping up the campaign glad you could join us.
The 5 was a typo, I was typing a lot of numbers, I meant 9. The point is my single class Ranger is getting 3rd level spells before the Druid.
The Ranger/Druid does not have a lot more spell slots, it is very few extra. At level 11 the Ranger/Druid can cast 4 1stl, 3 2nd, 3 3rd and 2 4th level.
The single class Ranger can cast 4 1st, 3 2nd and 3 3rd.
So the Ranger/Druid can cast EXACTLY 2 more spells than the Ranger at level 11 and they are both 4th level slots which he has no actual spells for.
But wait, the Ranger can also cast 3 more spells a day from primal awareness (and a 4th if he is a Fey Wanderer). So if you really want to start counting numbers, the single class 11th Ranger can cast more spells than a 5/6 Ranger/Druid.
Finally yes you would not have multi-attack at 5 if you didn't take ranger to 5, but the field damage is going to be more than the attack damage anyway.
But you have to hit to get the field damage and if you have two attacks you are far more likely to hit.
Also you will need to be 6th level to do this in the multiclass, while a single class Ranger can do it at 5 and do it far better (math below).
So you miss out on, about 1d8+6 at this point.
You have less of a chance of moving the target. A level 5 Ranger with an 18 strength and a Rapier has a +6 to hit and a base damage of 1d8+4. Assuming he has a secondary hand axe for ranged attacks that is 1d6+4. If the enemy has no ranged attack and has to move back there is also 12d4 of spike growth damage hanging on a failed save and with a 16 wisdom the Ranger has a 14DC.
The way this fight will go with multiattack - the Ranger will attack with the Rapier, if the enemy is missed the Ranger attacks a second time with the Rapier. The first time the enemy is hit with a rapier it needs to make a save or be moved (and take the movement damage). If it is hit and fails its save on the first attack the Ranger makes his second attack is with his hand axe.
Going with an enemy with an AC 16 and a Strength save of +3:
A Ranger/Druid making 1 attack will average 13 DPR and the enemy will only be moved through the spikes 27% of the time
The Ranger making 2 attacks will average 21 DPR and the enemy will be moved through the spikes 40% of the time
, but for the trade that by 8 you will have 3rd level spells
So 1 level earlier than a single class Ranger who had multiattack for the last 3 levels.
and by 10 you will have 4th level spells and you will actually see 5th level spells at 12 by the time the campaign is coming to a close. Since you are already prescribing a play style that is "Cast a concentration spell, then cast a spell that doesn't use your concentration" for your first 2, and most important, actions with the fey thing you might as well get to that style earlier. By the time your martial bits matter in either case, the fights should be wrapping up.
Two different builds here. The spikegrowth movement is a swarmkeeper build, not a Fey Wanderer build. The Fey wanderer is going to cast summon Fey in turn 1. If it is a big battle he is going to keep casting it.
You are right about becoming more of a caster. One of my characters was a Rogue1/Fey Wanderer 15. She had a girdle of Giant strength but was not using weapons very often. When she did she did a ton of damage (sneak+favored Foe/guardian of nature+dreadful strikes+weapon+7) but she did not do that often. Most of the time she used summon Fey, cause fear through shadow touched (sometimes upcast) and a wand of fear to control the battlefield. The party had no front liner at all. We were an evoker a Bard/Clerc, a Roge and my character. We had a ton of control and we were usually only actively fighting one or two enemies at a time because the rest of them were all tied up, charmed frightened or otherwise restricted from attacking.
You are talking about 20 minutes to do everything that isn't combat? Everything in the game that isn't combat takes a total of 20 minutes of a 3-hour session?
Primus is literally telling me that an entire class and part of the game is bad and boring and that is indirectly dismissing MY opinions and experience. His personal experience doesn't even touch on the parts of the game that exist and I enjoy. So if I come off defensive, you are correct.
No I'm specifically addressing the Travel mechanics I posted.
They are basically what I can find for "Exploration" that doesn't involve encounters (filed under combat) or parlays with creatures (filed under social encounters)
Overall they take less than 10 minutes in my experience to resolve and do not add a lot to the game as a whole.
Rangers with NE take that time down to less than that as they forgo most of the rolls needed here.
1. Travel should take zero minutes if it's just travel. Walking down a round through a known well established area should be no time. Being good at travel/exploration allows the ranger to do more. It isn't simply skipping over everything, its opening the doors for more things doe faster, which in turn allows for more things in the game for the story and other PCs.
2. I want to say if find it interesting that some people think that the ranger abilities makes exploration too easy, handwaved, or whatever, on a forum that places so much focus on optimizing builds for combat, to do what? Make combat easier? Does that mean people prefer builds that are NOT optimized for combat so combat is more challenging? Seems hypocritical and/or personal biased.
3. Exploration is everything else about the game that literally isn't combat and social interaction. My best advice for you is to read older versions of the game to learn how exploration is part of the game. I'm sorry 5E failed in presenting material within the rules to instruct us all on how to use this huge part if the game.
Keep in mind a charmed creature can not harm the Fey, that makes them extremely hard to kill. Yes, a big damage AOE that he fails a save on will kill him (and probably most of the wizards in the party). But such an enemy will likely be the first adversary he targets with charm and if he misses the charm he will position himself so the enemy needs to waste it on him instead of the rest of the party. Let's turn this argument upside down - At llth level, I am using a single 3rd level spell to cause an enemy to lose an entire high-damage AOE action (and probably need a recharge). That is a pretty good trade. And that is if he FAILS to charm the BBEG. If he lands the charm he parks himself in the middle of the squishies and now the enemy can't effectively use the AOE at all. On the other hand, if I presummon it I need concentration and in addition if I lose initiative I may lose the Fey to that AOE before it is even my turn and before he has a chance to target the BBEG.
Agaisnt more melee oriented enemies, it can't attack you or the Fey, yet both of you can attack him and get AOOs against it if it leaves your reach (and cancel the charm only if you hit and damage it). This will take away entire actions for the enemy or conversely give you free attacks. And remember this is one charm per Fey you have on the field and it is a bonus action in addition to their attack AND in addition to their misty step. Each Fey gets to attack, misty step and charm every single turn.
Beguiling twist turns that 1-turn charm into a 1-minute concentration free charm or frighten on another enemy. Which is time to point out something else - the frightened condition restricts movement, so if you have an enemy that is already charmed and you frighten him as well, now he can't attack you and he ca't move closer to you. Attack him, then move yourself (no AOO because he is charmed) so you are between him and your allies and he can't approach your allies.
This combination is awesome because of the extremely high volume of attacks and charms you are throwing out. Once you have 4 Fey on the field you are making a total of 6 attacks a turn (more some were upcast), throwing out 4 charms a turn, twisting one charm that saves and the misty step means the fey can. Even on the first turn it is a boost in action economy and it goes up every turn thereafter.
A strength Ranger has the same strength as any character with that number. It is math. A Ranger with a 16 strength and a d12 weapon does more damage with his weapon than a Ranger with a 16 dex and a d8 weapon. So they are ahead in weapon damage compared to dex or wisdom.
I would agree they do lose in utitlity, specifically ability checks since there are more that use dex and wisdom than use strength, but that is true of any player. Any player, regardless of class, who invests more in dexterity will have better skills than a player who puts that same investment in strength.
I don't think you can just make this blanket statement. You need to consider spells and subclass abilities. A swarmkeeper who throws down spike growth is going to do a crap ton of damage using only his class and subclass abilities. Enough I think to outrun most other martial builds through an adventuring day.
I agree that 5e failed to provide good examples of exploring and have engaging exploration aspects.
Several homebrew fixes exist which my favorite is the one that presents an area with a statblocks for the terrain that makes each area unique and flavorful. You could give rangers benefits here to make their involvement more engaging.
That's the unfortunate reality of NE currently as it doesn't really make the exploration aspect interesting but kinda handwaves it
It depends on what the check is. Medicine check to make an herbal remedy. Even without that though, the big difference is in Nature and Survival where I don't even need proficiency for expertise, so I could have proficiency in 2 more skills (call it these skills)
A Mirtful Fey is extremely effecient because it does ok damage, has a charm and cand do these turn after turn and it also has extreme mobility enabling battlefield control through positioing. Not needing concentration is a huge boost for just about any concentration spell.
A Higher level cast gives the Fey more attacks, better AC and better hps, but the spell is mostly a control spell that does some damage so I don't generally upcast it. Ocasionally I will upcast it at 4th level just for the extra attack, but going beyond that is not usually worth it.
Ok so you missed something very important. If the Fey succeeds at charming then the creature is charmed by the fey AND you. If it fails and you beguiling twist the creature is charmed by you and NOT the fey meaning the fey no longer has any protection what so ever. And while it was a good use of a spell at 5th level when the druid got it, by around level 8 or so the more challenging monsters are largely making this ability into a ribbon spell rather than what your go to should be especially if you are not upcasting it. Which the ranger doesn't have the slots to do.
Finally the swarm keeper trick is something you can do at level 5 when you get spike growth. If you multi-class after getting level 3 with ranger to druid you can do it at level 6, with much more spell slots on its way as you continue to level up druid. My argument is about high level Ranger. About deciding to take it over multi-classing out for better features and abilities. About the lack of incentive to stick with ranger past 5 or 6.
Finally, I said martial prowess, if you have a druid with spike growth in your party, your fighter can force movement and still hit 3 times. I don't expect or want the ranger to be as good at martial abilities as a fighter, but to go from 90-95% of a fighter and drop effectiveness just because you all leveled up seems bad without much of a trade. Everyone gets a damage boost, why does the ranger, barbarian, rogue and monk have to have the worst ones.
Right, it is a good spell, at level 5 when the druid got it. Monsters will have scaled that a single charm for a spell slot or an action is ok, but not super great, and their damage and AOE damage has scaled and their to hit has scaled that the fey does not have nearly enough protection if it fails its charm. It is not a bad spell, but it is not so good that someone should be lauding it as a reason to stick with ranger instead of multi classing at 5 to druid for better and more spells, and then the higher you go beyond 11 the worse it gets, 1 charm is always decent, but there are so many 3rd level spells that can do better than 1 charm. While the higher you go with the druid multi-class the better spells you have to cast and the better options you have for that 3rd level slot.
Oh another note, the misty step is what triggers the charm from the fey. They actually have to teleport TO the target to attempt the charm. At higher levels a failed charm and fly away is an AOO and a dead fey.
And again, pointing out what you missed with beguiling twist. It only triggers if the monster SUCCEEDS his save against a charm or fear. So NO you can NOT have a creature both charmed AND frightened. It doesn't work that way. You attempt to charm, the charm FAILS and then you can choose a DIFFERENT creature and try to charm or frighten it, but then it will only be charmed or frightened by you and not the fey creature. The scenario you are painting doesn't exist within the rules of the game.
Also, I was not comparing strength ranger to dex ranger. I was comparing strength ranger to strength paladin, or strength fighter, or strength barbarian. There aren't a lot of skills in the rangers tool kit that prop up a strength ranger. Their fighting styles don't prop that up, their spells and features are all better if used at range than if used in melee. Just look at volley vs Whirlwind attack as an example. Or the number of abilities that trigger and do the same thing regardless of what the hit is. If it is the same for ranged or melee, than it is better for ranged.
Edit: basically i would rather take an action to cast spike growth for a lower level spell slot as my first action in combat. Maybe use this as my second action in combat since no concentration. but I am definitely not spamming this. And in either case. I like this style of play better as a druid ranger. If you enjoy it, more power to you have fun, but I wouldn't call it the most effective build.
For my brain, can one of you tell me what we are "skipping" with the ranger? Is it the navigation part?
Navigation part is definitely a big part of it you can't get lost except by magical means, this means any adventure based around getting lost is forfeit, foraging part if you took goodberry, but that is goodberry not NE. Other than that, I wouldn't say skipping. But ya navigation is a pretty big part of the fun of exploration, in my opinion, it may not be for others and there are still some other aspects of exploration. Tracking down enemies, foraging for food. Finding odd an interesting things in the game world that can lead to other odd and interesting things.
Navigation, Map Making, and Foraging (you find twice as much which the roll is already very generous), and tracking.
You automatically can't get lost so no roll there.
You don't need a map because of this too.
Tracking you know their size, how many, and where they are going with no roll.
Foraging technically takes a roll but since you double it and the check is :
On a successful check, roll 1d6 + the character’s Wisdom modifier to determine how much food (in pounds) the character finds, then repeat the roll for water (in gallons).
Since medium creatures only need 1lb and 1 gallon of water if you have a +3 Wis mod then you are already supplying for 4 party members on a success. This is before you double it....
Since you get ADV on the check in your favored terrain it's pretty much certain you will beat the DC 15 check... And if you don't then the others can since they don't have to do the other activities since you have that covered.
Overall it's trivial.
So small correction and it was made earlier, you do not get advantage while in your terrain you get to double your proficiency bonus for skill checks that you are proficient in.
Ok good deal thanks!
Yeah that makes it even more likely so it's even more trivial.
But he is using your spell save and that charm, by itself, with nothing else is pretty powerful. Consider in combat it is hands down better than Charm Monster (a 4th level spell), and that is without considering the damage, mobility or anything else.
If the enemy kills the Fey (which like I said is difficult) then it wasted an action doing it, which is a win for the party. But that is difficult, let me give you an examplee:
Take a Purple Worm - that is a CR15 enemy. You cast Summon Fey, the Fey charms. The purple worm is probably going to fail his save. If he doesn't, yes he can attack the Fey.
The actual chance the Fey dies in turn 1 is 15% - the chance worm makes his charm save is 20%, the chance he kills the Fey if he doesn't make his charm is 75% if he uses both attacks on him. The chance of both these things happening (fail save and kill Fey) less than 15%. Even in this unlikely event you had the purple worm use his entire turn to kill the Fey.
Now like I said earlier, most of the time in this example the Fey will land his charm, in which case the purple worm can not attack him or the Ranger. Next turn the Ranger summons a second Fey. If the worm is still charmed now the first Fey is going to use charm on the Ranger (who gets to save with advantage). If he fails no big deal, being charmed by an ally is mostly meaningless, but if he makes his save he is going to twist that and send it back to the worm as frightened. Once the Worm has a twisted frightened and charmed on him they are just going to gang up on him. Frightened prevents him from moving closer to the Ranger and charmed prevents him from attacking any of those who charmed him.
That is one example of an enemy that does over the top damage like you mentioned and it is not even ideal, because this is a lot better with multiple enemies than it is with one.
Just a lone 11th level Ranger will whittle down that CR15 purple worm with relative ease once 4 Fey are in the fight. He can attack him every single turn and the worm would have to save 5 successive times to even be able to land an attack against him and after frigthened lands he can't even approach the Ranger (or any of the Fey that did not charm him if they are in that direction.
No you teleport to within 10 feet, which on most enemies is far enough away to leave without an AOO. SOme enemies it is not but most it is and their move is 40 feet, which means if the charm fails they can usually get 50 feet away after the charm. If they do have reach then they can either take the AOO or disengage.
I used a purple worm as an example above and that has extrmemely high damage just to make a point, most enemies will not be able to kill a Fey on a single AOO. Even a purple worm can't do it reliably.
First of all you are assuming you are assuming there is only 1 enemy, which is not ideal for the ranger. It works a lot better when fighting multiple enemies, one saves and then you twist it to the other. I know how Beguiling Twist works, I use it a lot.
Even though it works better with multiple enemies and using it when they succeed, you can use it to frighten a single enemy by having the Fey use its charm on the Ranger (once that enemy is already charmed). The ranger gets to save with advantage and if he makes his save (which he will the majority of the time) he can twist that into fear and send it at the same single enemy that was already charmed the turn before or by another Fey. If he fails the save the Ranger is charmed by the Fey until he takes damage, which is irrelevant because he is an ally.
Once you have multiple Fey on the battlefiled this is pretty simple because you have multiple shots to charm the BBEG and once you land one if you can land the fear too you can completely control the direction he can go.
As an aside if you have twisted frightened or twisted charm on the enemy and he makes his end of turn save against that, the Ranger can also use the save on the twist to twist fear on the Fey in the same manner. As long as the Fey in qestion has a charm up he can stay next to the enemy without worry and even try to charm him again if he takes damage. He gets a save every turn so eventually that is going to be another source the Ranger can use to twist back on the enemy.
Eitehr of these are less efficient than using the enemies failed save to twist on to another but they are effective.
Yes only by me, but two things here. Frightened completely prevents the enemy from approaching me. So all the "vulnerable" Fey has to do is move away from the enemy towards me and the enemy can not approach/follow the fey because it would have to get closer to me to do that. If he really needs to he can disengage to do this if he already failed with his charm.
The other thing about the twisted charm is that unlike the Fey charm, it is not canceled by damage. So once you have the enemy twist charmed and frightened the Ranger can just wail away on him with the Fey stepping out of the way until he makes one of those saves. Because the initiative order is always Ranger and then Fey this means it is a perfect set up. When the enemy saves on the twisted charm, the Fey swarm him the very next turn so he has to make 4 saves in succession
Dueling, Defense and Blind Fighting are as good on a strength based Ranger as they are on a strength based fighter or Paladin and thrown weapon fighting is better on a strength based Ranger than on a dex based Ranger.
I would say the Ranger has more diversity and is better able to do a Ranged build than either a Paladin or a Barbarian, but that is not the same as saying they are weaker on a strength-based build. They are more flexible but since Tasha's they are not appreciably weaker IME.
Ok. But you don't have a lot of experience playing this character I do.
There are a failry large number of enemies that are immune to charm (and frightened), and more still that get advantage on saves against charm. It does not work well against them. It is pretty effecctive against most others though. It is also only marginally effective against enemies with Legendary resistance. It does eat legendaries and it eats them at an ascending cost, so if you are trying to run the enemy out of legendaries it is a good spell, but it is not a good spell if you want to ignore the legendaries and just damage him.
I did not miss it. A fey has superior mobility to just about anything else out there AND attacks used on the Fey are attacks NOT used on the rest of the party.
Unless it is immune to charm it is not a ribbon. Being able to chamr multiple enemies a tunr and further being able to use a reaction to make another save when one does save is extermely powerful, especially when you are doing it with no concentration.
Let's also remember too that while the Fey damage is not great, it is not awful either. 2d6+6 turn after turn is significant and that is on a 3rd level cast. On a 4th level cast it is 4d6+14 and all ofit is either magical piercing or force.
If you multiclass at level 3 you do not have multiattack and you will do a lot less damage because your chance of hitting and having the opportunity to move the enemy is much lower.
Moreover, if you multiclass at level 5 (to get extra attack) then you will need to be level 10 before you get any 3rd level spells, where a single class Ranger gets them at level 5 (and gets better 3rd level spells to boot). You will have 3rd level slots at level 8, one level earlier than a single class Ranger, but you will actually get the spells one level later and as far as cobat spells go the list is not generally as good as the Ranger (although you can prepare so that is a plus).
If you multiclass at level 3 no multiattack. If you multiclass at level 5 you are really not ahead of a straight Ranger as a spellcaster until level 12 .... which is most of the game.
Yeah if you have a Druid in your party.,if he has spike growth if you take certain abilities as a fighter.
A lot of ifs in there, especially when in the games I play Druid is one of the fewest classes played (and the stats here on DNDB would back that up) and it is not a class i find particularly engaging.
Again you as a single individual with summon fey CAN NOT charm more than 1 person. 1 person has to SUCCEED their check for you to TRY to charm the second with beguiling twist. That is still a total of 1 charm, not 2, not 3, not multiple, 1. The fey has more mobility, but it has to teleport TO the target, not AWAY from the target to trigger it's charm, cutting its mobility and actively putting it in harms way. You get 3rd level spells at level 9 with a Ranger not 5, so druid multi-class only delays it 1 level AND you have more spell slots, more spells prepared and no Ranger doesn't have "better" 3rd level spells. Yes you get better around level 12.... welcome to the thread where it is about Ranger not doing well into the 11-13 or 14 range and not having an effectiveness drop off right as we are wrapping up the campaign glad you could join us.
So ya you are just prescribing things to ranger that they simply don't get, missing the point of the thread and a few others.
Finally yes you would not have multi-attack at 5 if you didn't take ranger to 5, but the field damage is going to be more than the attack damage anyway. So you miss out on, about 1d8+6 at this point, but for the trade that by 8 you will have 3rd level spells and by 10 you will have 4th level spells and you will actually see 5th level spells at 12 by the time the campaign is coming to a close. Since you are already prescribing a play style that is "Cast a concentration spell, then cast a spell that doesn't use your concentration" for your first 2, and most important, actions with the fey thing you might as well get to that style earlier. By the time your martial bits matter in either case, the fights should be wrapping up.
Edit: Let's examine the swarm keeper/Spores druid multi-class from level 5 on.
At 6 you gain druid. This gives you 2 cantrips (basically druidic fighting style freeing you up to get archery or duelist) and you can now prepare 4 more first level spells. Note this is prepare, not learn you can change these spells out giving you wonderful flexibility. The price you have paid at this level, 1 more terrain type for NE and a new FE or you have given up 5 feet of movement climbing/swim speed and 1 extra damage on average from FF (which uses your concentration. So far you are slightly less effective, but not much. Your main trick is still there and you have effectively given yourself a second fighting style and more flexibility. Level 7, you give up your ability to gain a very slow flying speed, and you gain a druid circle power and the ability to shape shift which includes animals that have climbing speeds, if you are using tasha's you also gain find familiar instead if you wish. This ability recovers on a short rest while swarm recovers on a long rest. I would call Ranger still, slightly ahead here, but this is because of swarm keeper having a solid level 7 ability, not all rangers possess this. Level 8 druid can now prepare 2nd level spells, and you now have 2 3rd level spell slots to upcast your spells with. You are giving up an ASI, This is about the point where they start to even out. Being able to upcast and having a good number of spells known and prepared starts to outpace the couple of better mobility options from the level 6 and 7 feature, in my opinion. Level 9, you give up 3rd level spells, for 1 more 3rd level spell slot and gaining back your ASI. Again Ranger is taking the lead here simply because of how good 3rd level spells are, but again it is still marginal because your martial abilities have not suffered at all, and your spell casting is still more flexible and you still have more of them. At 10th level you are able to prepare 3rd level spells and have a 4th level spell slot and you give up nature's veil, your martial abilities have not improved since 5 in either case, but now you have more casting, and more flexible casting the druid overtakes here. At 11, it doesn't get better, the druid gets their second conclave feature and gets a 2nd 4th level slot and you have given up 1 damage from the swarm. At 12, druid/ranger is in full take over. So from my perspective, no the take over happens at 10 not 12, and the only time they are really behind is 9. 6, 7, and 8 is marginally in favor of the ranger, but the flexibility of the druid spells and the druid shape shifting can it can really swing either way.
You absolutely 100% can. I have played this subclass a lot, on multiple tables with multiple DMs I know what I am talking about here.
At 11th level you can have up to 4 Fey on the battlefield so that is up to 4 NOT just 1. Every single Fey on the battlefield casts a charm every single turn as long as one of those charms is saved against the Ranger can use beguiling twist and put it on someone else. If there are 4 Fey on the battlefield and they all use their bonus action that is 4 people you can charm THAT TURN ALONE. If one of them succeeds on their save then you charm 3 but can twist it and charm or frighten a 4th (or put it on one of the 3 that failed). The charm lasts one minute so over the course of the battle you are going to have a ton of them floating around. It is "multiple". Going Nova by the end of turn 4 you will have cast a charm 10 times (potentially charming 10 different enemies). You will have used beguiling twist up to 4 times and retargeted if any of those succeeded on their save.
There will always be at least 3 creatures on the battlefield after summon Fey is cast in combat: the enemy, the Fey (which is immune to charm but not frightened) and the caster (Ranger who is not immune to charm but saves with advantage). Because of this you can ALWAYS put multiple effects on an enemy. Worst case with 1 Fey and 1 enemy it takes several turns, but you can still do it. With 2 or more Fey you can do multiple effects in one turn on the same enemy.
Example with just 1 Fey:
Round 1: Ranger casts summon Fey. Fey casts charm on enemy (Enemy is now charmed)
Round 2(Enemy is still charmed unless he took damage): Fey casts charm on Ranger, Ranger saves and twists that into fear on enemy - Enemy is now charmed by Fey and Ranger and frightened by Ranger
Round 3 (Enemy still charmed unless he took damage, still frightened unless he saved at the end of his turn): Fey casts charm on Ranger, Ranger saves and twists it int charm on enemy. Enemy is now charmed by Ranger and Fey, frightened by the Ranger and separately charmed by the Ranger due to beguiling twist. Since the twist effects are not canceled by damage the Fey and the Ranger wail away with impunity. The Fey steps away (not using charm) to stay out of combat. The Ranger stays in combat. The enemy can't chase the Fey because of frightened, cant attack the Ranger because of charmed. He saves against the twist at the end of his turn. If he saves against frightened then we start at it again.
Now that example had only 1 single Fey but you can do it with multiple Fey and normally you would, or you would have a spell you could cast yourself to speed up the process (cause fear being the best). With multiple Fey it is just more charms until someone succeeds and you can twist it. If you start the battle with a Fey already there you can do it on the first turn. With more Fey it is easier and faster because you have more chances to succeed on your save thereby enabling twist. The real limiting factor is 1 reaction per round, so if the enemy makes his save you will need to wait until the next round.
I know what I am talking about here because I have played this build a lot, this is basic tactics for a Fey Wanderer.
Not "to the target" Within 10 feet of the target, which for most targets is far enough away that it can just walk away after this. Even if the target has a 10 foot reach it can still disengage because Fey Step is a bonus action and they have a 40 foot move which is more than most enemies. Not all, but most. So yes the Fey can move away from the target after using Fey step.
The 5 was a typo, I was typing a lot of numbers, I meant 9. The point is my single class Ranger is getting 3rd level spells before the Druid.
The Ranger/Druid does not have a lot more spell slots, it is very few extra. At level 11 the Ranger/Druid can cast 4 1stl, 3 2nd, 3 3rd and 2 4th level.
The single class Ranger can cast 4 1st, 3 2nd and 3 3rd.
So the Ranger/Druid can cast EXACTLY 2 more spells than the Ranger at level 11 and they are both 4th level slots which he has no actual spells for.
But wait, the Ranger can also cast 3 more spells a day from primal awareness (and a 4th if he is a Fey Wanderer). So if you really want to start counting numbers, the single class 11th Ranger can cast more spells than a 5/6 Ranger/Druid.
But you have to hit to get the field damage and if you have two attacks you are far more likely to hit.
Also you will need to be 6th level to do this in the multiclass, while a single class Ranger can do it at 5 and do it far better (math below).
You have less of a chance of moving the target. A level 5 Ranger with an 18 strength and a Rapier has a +6 to hit and a base damage of 1d8+4. Assuming he has a secondary hand axe for ranged attacks that is 1d6+4. If the enemy has no ranged attack and has to move back there is also 12d4 of spike growth damage hanging on a failed save and with a 16 wisdom the Ranger has a 14DC.
The way this fight will go with multiattack - the Ranger will attack with the Rapier, if the enemy is missed the Ranger attacks a second time with the Rapier. The first time the enemy is hit with a rapier it needs to make a save or be moved (and take the movement damage). If it is hit and fails its save on the first attack the Ranger makes his second attack is with his hand axe.
Going with an enemy with an AC 16 and a Strength save of +3:
A Ranger/Druid making 1 attack will average 13 DPR and the enemy will only be moved through the spikes 27% of the time
The Ranger making 2 attacks will average 21 DPR and the enemy will be moved through the spikes 40% of the time
So 1 level earlier than a single class Ranger who had multiattack for the last 3 levels.
Two different builds here. The spikegrowth movement is a swarmkeeper build, not a Fey Wanderer build. The Fey wanderer is going to cast summon Fey in turn 1. If it is a big battle he is going to keep casting it.
You are right about becoming more of a caster. One of my characters was a Rogue1/Fey Wanderer 15. She had a girdle of Giant strength but was not using weapons very often. When she did she did a ton of damage (sneak+favored Foe/guardian of nature+dreadful strikes+weapon+7) but she did not do that often. Most of the time she used summon Fey, cause fear through shadow touched (sometimes upcast) and a wand of fear to control the battlefield. The party had no front liner at all. We were an evoker a Bard/Clerc, a Roge and my character. We had a ton of control and we were usually only actively fighting one or two enemies at a time because the rest of them were all tied up, charmed frightened or otherwise restricted from attacking.