So, I'm wanting to get my head around the mechanics with the Hide ability, a gloomstalker ranger and using the hide ability.
My ranger is currently level 2, so as yet, hasn't picked the archetype, but I'm going to be choosing gloomstalker. My ranger is also a wood elf, so has the mask of the wild trait.
When I gained spellcasting, at level two, I picked up fog cloud, thinking I would be able to use the spell to create the obscurement to allow my character to hide, so he could than attack with advantage, but rereading the spell, and trying to understand the mechanics of it, I think I've made an error with picking this spell.
As I understand it, if I cast fog cloud, centered on myself, the area is in enough obscurement that I would be able to take the hide ability, but because the fog is thick that it blocks line of sight, it wouldn't actually give me advantage on my attack, because I won't be able to see the enemy is that correct? The disadvantage that would normally be imposed by the obscurment is cancelled out by me having advantage on the attack from being hidden?
Would I be best dropping fog cloud in favour of something else? Or am I misunderstanding the mechanic?
If you are a melee Ranger you could take the Fighting Style - Blind Fighting to be a boss inside your Fog Cloud, no hiding required. For ranged combat it could still work if you manage to stay within 10 ft of the enemy
Even a ranged ranger with archery fighting style can still hit pretty decent in a fog cloud. For attacking if the enemy cant see it coming the ranger has advantage. If the ranger cant see the target the ranger has disadvantage. The two cancel out.
fog cloud is not usually an advantage builder(unless your a PHB beastmaster or druid or have blind sight of a sort)
usually the reason for casting fog cloud is Anti-packtactics, anti-sneak attack, anti-opportunity attacks anti-line of sight.
So, I'm wanting to get my head around the mechanics with the Hide ability, a gloomstalker ranger and using the hide ability.
My ranger is currently level 2, so as yet, hasn't picked the archetype, but I'm going to be choosing gloomstalker. My ranger is also a wood elf, so has the mask of the wild trait.
When I gained spellcasting, at level two, I picked up fog cloud, thinking I would be able to use the spell to create the obscurement to allow my character to hide, so he could than attack with advantage, but rereading the spell, and trying to understand the mechanics of it, I think I've made an error with picking this spell.
Fog Cloud has no special interactions with Wood Elves or Gloomstalkers. Here's the deal:
Anyone who is heavily obscured (e.g. by Fog Cloud or darkness) can attempt to Hide; on a success, they become definitionally Unheard and hence can't be located until they are heard.
There is a widespread, baseless belief on this forum that you are automatically heard until you take the Hide action. The truth is that the RAW simply doesn't cover the mechanics of trying to locate something via hearing outside of the fact that we know that once you're Hidden, you're no longer Heard.
A Wood Elf can hide while observed under some very specific criteria which in general works like one of the bullet points of the Skulker feat: you can hide while lightly obscured, generally by dim light. Doing so means it is immaterial if someone can see when you make the attempt, and if you succeed at Hiding, you become unseen unless someone's Passive Perception is high enough to see you or they succeed on the Search action to look for you. In both cases, the observer will have disadvantage to see you but won't have disadvantage to hear you, barring special rules to the contrary. This has no interactions with bright light or darkness except that because a creature with darkvision treats darkness like dim light, you can do the same thing in darkness against darkvision creatures.
A Gloom Stalker is automatically Invisible while in darkness against darkvision and only darkvision. To such an observer in darkness, you simply aren't seen. This means you can make a Hide check to become unheard, as above, and also as above, the rules are undefined for how heard you are without actually taking the Hide action.
If you want to see through Fog Cloud, I recommend the Blind Fighting fighting style - Blindsight will see through it just fine.
So, I'm wanting to get my head around the mechanics with the Hide ability, a gloomstalker ranger and using the hide ability.
My ranger is currently level 2, so as yet, hasn't picked the archetype, but I'm going to be choosing gloomstalker. My ranger is also a wood elf, so has the mask of the wild trait.
When I gained spellcasting, at level two, I picked up fog cloud, thinking I would be able to use the spell to create the obscurement to allow my character to hide, so he could than attack with advantage, but rereading the spell, and trying to understand the mechanics of it, I think I've made an error with picking this spell.
Fog Cloud has no special interactions with Wood Elves or Gloomstalkers. Here's the deal:
Anyone who is heavily obscured (e.g. by Fog Cloud or darkness) can attempt to Hide; on a success, they become definitionally Unheard and hence can't be located until they are heard.
There is a widespread, baseless belief on this forum that you are automatically heard until you take the Hide action. The truth is that the RAW simply doesn't cover the mechanics of trying to locate something via hearing outside of the fact that we know that once you're Hidden, you're no longer Heard.
A Wood Elf can hide while observed under some very specific criteria which in general works like one of the bullet points of the Skulker feat: you can hide while lightly obscured, generally by dim light. Doing so means it is immaterial if someone can see when you make the attempt, and if you succeed at Hiding, you become unseen unless someone's Passive Perception is high enough to see you or they succeed on the Search action to look for you. In both cases, the observer will have disadvantage to see you but won't have disadvantage to hear you, barring special rules to the contrary. This has no interactions with bright light or darkness except that because a creature with darkvision treats darkness like dim light, you can do the same thing in darkness against darkvision creatures.
A Gloom Stalker is automatically Invisible while in darkness against darkvision and only darkvision. To such an observer in darkness, you simply aren't seen. This means you can make a Hide check to become unheard, as above, and also as above, the rules are undefined for how heard you are without actually taking the Hide action.
If you want to see through Fog Cloud, I recommend the Blind Fighting fighting style - Blindsight will see through it just fine.
Thank you for the clarification. While you are correct, in that Fog Cloud has no special interactions with Gloomstalker and Wood Elves, my thoughts behind taking it was to use it to create an area of obscurement, in a situation where there would otherwise not be any, in order to use the mask of the wild ability to hide.
But, given that it makes the area Heavy Obsucrement, meaning it blocks line of sight, I don't think it would work the way I was expecting it to, hence my confusion and seeking help, so many thanks to you and the others above for clearing up that confusion.
You're correct in that hiding in a Fog Cloud would not let you attack with advantage. Your best bet to do so is to find areas lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena to attempt to hide in them. Once you're a Gloomstalker, you will be able to add areas heavily obscured by darkness as well.
I am curious if OP has an update. did you keep fog cloud or took something else?
Thank you for the video, it did provide some insight. I still think, considering I'm looking to make a ranged build, fog cloud might not be my best option. Plus, I'm pretty sure I should be able to find areas of light obscurement that I won't need it.
At this stage, we havn't levelled up yet so I still have the spell, but I think I will swap it out when I do level up, maybe for absorb elements. However, I have used it succesfully, when the party needed to evacuate a number of civilians from a temple. It did provide cover for them and the party to make our escape from the temple, over the nearby wall and into the treeline.
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So, I'm wanting to get my head around the mechanics with the Hide ability, a gloomstalker ranger and using the hide ability.
My ranger is currently level 2, so as yet, hasn't picked the archetype, but I'm going to be choosing gloomstalker. My ranger is also a wood elf, so has the mask of the wild trait.
When I gained spellcasting, at level two, I picked up fog cloud, thinking I would be able to use the spell to create the obscurement to allow my character to hide, so he could than attack with advantage, but rereading the spell, and trying to understand the mechanics of it, I think I've made an error with picking this spell.
As I understand it, if I cast fog cloud, centered on myself, the area is in enough obscurement that I would be able to take the hide ability, but because the fog is thick that it blocks line of sight, it wouldn't actually give me advantage on my attack, because I won't be able to see the enemy is that correct? The disadvantage that would normally be imposed by the obscurment is cancelled out by me having advantage on the attack from being hidden?
Would I be best dropping fog cloud in favour of something else? Or am I misunderstanding the mechanic?
If you are a melee Ranger you could take the Fighting Style - Blind Fighting to be a boss inside your Fog Cloud, no hiding required. For ranged combat it could still work if you manage to stay within 10 ft of the enemy
Even a ranged ranger with archery fighting style can still hit pretty decent in a fog cloud. For attacking if the enemy cant see it coming the ranger has advantage. If the ranger cant see the target the ranger has disadvantage. The two cancel out.
fog cloud is not usually an advantage builder(unless your a PHB beastmaster or druid or have blind sight of a sort)
usually the reason for casting fog cloud is Anti-packtactics, anti-sneak attack, anti-opportunity attacks anti-line of sight.
Fog Cloud has no special interactions with Wood Elves or Gloomstalkers. Here's the deal:
If you want to see through Fog Cloud, I recommend the Blind Fighting fighting style - Blindsight will see through it just fine.
Thank you for the clarification. While you are correct, in that Fog Cloud has no special interactions with Gloomstalker and Wood Elves, my thoughts behind taking it was to use it to create an area of obscurement, in a situation where there would otherwise not be any, in order to use the mask of the wild ability to hide.
But, given that it makes the area Heavy Obsucrement, meaning it blocks line of sight, I don't think it would work the way I was expecting it to, hence my confusion and seeking help, so many thanks to you and the others above for clearing up that confusion.
You're correct in that hiding in a Fog Cloud would not let you attack with advantage. Your best bet to do so is to find areas lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena to attempt to hide in them. Once you're a Gloomstalker, you will be able to add areas heavily obscured by darkness as well.
Here is a video about darkness but most of the stuff applies to fog cloud. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc7PEdIDc20&t=28s
I am curious if OP has an update. did you keep fog cloud or took something else?
Thank you for the video, it did provide some insight. I still think, considering I'm looking to make a ranged build, fog cloud might not be my best option. Plus, I'm pretty sure I should be able to find areas of light obscurement that I won't need it.
At this stage, we havn't levelled up yet so I still have the spell, but I think I will swap it out when I do level up, maybe for absorb elements. However, I have used it succesfully, when the party needed to evacuate a number of civilians from a temple. It did provide cover for them and the party to make our escape from the temple, over the nearby wall and into the treeline.