The PHB beast master can have a passive perception of 20+ at level 3 via the companion.
You just listed stuff that takes 3 or more different types of classes to achieve, and in some cases a very specific combination of background and subclass. The ranger can do it all. From it’s main class and spells. Easy.
At this point I’ll come back to play style for you again. You are actively trying to find arguments against anything brought to the conversation contrary to your own.
I’m happy you’re happy with the Tasha’s optional ranger features. I’m sorry you don’t like, appreciate, understand, or like to use how to use the original ranger abilities in the game.
The PHB beast master can have a passive perception of 20+ at level 3 via the companion.
You just listed stuff that takes 3 or more different types of classes to achieve, and in some cases a very specific combination of background and subclass. The ranger can do it all. From it’s main class and spells. Easy.
At this point I’ll come back to play style for you again. You are actively trying to find arguments against anything brought to the conversation contrary to your own.
I’m happy you’re happy with the Tasha’s optional ranger features. I’m sorry you don’t like, appreciate, [REDACTED], or like to use how to use the original ranger abilities in the game.
Notes: Civility is expected from, and towards, everyone. No exceptions
…. few people have mentioned non combat encounter design and pacing. its good to have short solvable scenarios in-between longer ones. also understanding how said skills affect the rest of the game. delays could make other things more difficult. finding the right side quest might make the next section easier.
Especially wilderness non combat encounters. Here are a few I have run into at one time or another:
1) someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed.
2 you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do? 3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing? 5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
these are just a few I’ve run into personally in real life, there are lots more ideas in novels like “The Walking Drum” or the books of “The first Mountainman” series.
I appreciate you actually listing out real scenarios that you have experienced....but lets go through each one and see how the PHB Ranger actually would deal with these.
1. someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed
So this is likely an Animal Handling Check or perhaps a spell use of Speak with Animals to talk with the skunk. This is an interesting scenario but the only potential for the PHB Ranger's abilities here is and ADV on a nature check if they picked beast as a favored enemy....which is not a great choice but could happen. However, the Scout Rogue already has expertise in Nature! And the druid need not bother as they can just speak with animals and get the skunk to skedaddle. So even giving the ranger the most favorable chance here they are no more prepared to handle the situation than others....especially if they made the "wrong" choice with their Favored Enemy.
2. you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do?
This one is the one that is completely nullified by magic...ritual magic at that. Tiny Hut makes this a moot point as you never have to sleep in an area that isn't completely save and warm. But say you do not have this spell in the party...what about PHB ranger makes them any more capable to handle this scenario? Again you could get information about the creatures with a Nature check....but so can the others just as easy if not better than you with expertise, Enhance Ability, Guidance, etc.... in fact they are likely to be better than you at it.
3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
Tiny Hut.....but a survival check seems to be in order here to fashion a system using trees. Again you might (emphasize might) get ADV on this if you picked the "right" favored terrain. If not then you are no better at this check than others. At least Tasha's Ranger could have Expertise in Survival here to have a chance to be better than others. Overall I do not see an advantage other than a roll here if you are lucky enough to pick the "right" terrain.
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing?
Wizard casts firebolt to start a fire....no check required. Create Bonfire from one of the other classes that gets cantrips...which you don't have as a ranger. No debris to start on fire? Tiny Hut saves the day again. Also the ranger would only be able to get ADV on the survival check to get the fire started....once again the others have almost the same odds of getting the check or better if they are a high WIS class. Enhance ability has replaced you as the go to for anything at this point. Also an aside for this one.....how did you not plan to need fire in a desert at night? Major ranger fail for not planning for this ahead of time.....
5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
Polymorph into a giant bird and fly people over the lava flows. Tiny Hut as always. Once again the ranger will likely not have any kind of advantage here....it would boil down to a survival roll maybe? if so they are just as likely to succeed as the others....even less so if they did not pick Mountain as their terrain.
Overall it just shows that even in these situations there are far more effective solutions than what a ranger can come up with to solve the situation. Even at lower levels it does not take much for the Cleric, Druid, or Bard to be better than the ranger at a survival roll thanks to Enhance Ability and a decent WIS score.
You compare high level solutions to first level PHB ranger abilities You have not proven it is weaker or more poorly designed than other classes when it comes to exploration. You have solved most of your problems with a 7th level ability. by that time a ranger has already picked up a second "Informed" terrain choice. Your the simple solutions like cantrips you forget a lot of basic stuff. building a fire in a desert you need flammable objects that will actually burn long enough to heat the area affectively. How do you know which plants are water stores that wont burn well vs ones that don't need much water and will burn. did your other caster even know to light a fire when it was still warm or were they woken up in the night freezing and already in a bad state? did you even know about what supplies would be needed on the journey. (like fire wood as a priority over food). A ranger has a chance to solve the problem without resource use better than any other class and has a more all encompassing solution. tiny hut only does tiny hut stuff. The rangers "situational" skills are more varied and can help with way more solutions that just one thing. and this is a ribbon ability. they still have all their core features and subclass features. Knowledge of an area in its self is what makes a ranger better than other classes. Not to mention all the unique stuff that gets conveniently ignored.
For most of these responses you used advantage (favored enemy) instead of Favored terrain (functional expertise). Again many situations actually both apply. We all make mistakes but it shouldn't be a core part of the argument.
I do because they do not scale in any appreciable way.....your 1st level ranger favored enemy is the same at 1st level and 20th....you just get more of them.
So its an applicable comparison...especially since things like expertise are from 1st level on as well. Enhance ability is a 2nd level spell so good to go from 3rd level on.
Overall its a fair comparison as you are either closely approximating or overcoming the benefit ranger gets....unless its a highly niche case in which its both your terrain and favored enemy.....one should not expect that all the time or even majority of the time.
”...they do not scale in any appreciable way.....your 1st level ranger favored enemy is the same at 1st level and 20th....you just get more of them.”
and
“...unless its a highly niche case in which its both your terrain and favored enemy.....one should not expect that all the time or even majority of the time.”
This is literally scaling. Just in width instead of depth.
Again, no one character is going to have many, certainly not all, of the needed resources to accomplish all of the counterpoints you are making. And if a player built a character that did, well, let them, as they earned it.
I do because they do not scale in any appreciable way.....your 1st level ranger favored enemy is the same at 1st level and 20th....you just get more of them.
Getting more of them is scaling; it means you gain the bonuses against an increasing number of enemy types. Depending on how you pick them, and your campaign, you could cover nearly every enemy you're likely to face.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
The PHB beast master can have a passive perception of 20+ at level 3 via the companion.
You just listed stuff that takes 3 or more different types of classes to achieve, and in some cases a very specific combination of background and subclass. The ranger can do it all. From it’s main class and spells. Easy.
At this point I’ll come back to play style for you again. You are actively trying to find arguments against anything brought to the conversation contrary to your own.
I’m happy you’re happy with the Tasha’s optional ranger features. I’m sorry you don’t like, appreciate, understand, or like to use how to use the original ranger abilities in the game.
How are you getting this perception? you only get to add your proficiency bonus to their skills so at level 3 that's a +3? The best perception I can find is +5 so that is an 18 passive perception....
Also no enhance ability and the food creation are 1 class (Druid or Cleric). You can get expertise in a skill via Skill Expert now so you could argue that at cleric or druid could blow a ranger away easily.
Also yes I am talking about how PHB ranger features are underwhelming in a thread entitled "Ranger Underpowered?" as it directly relevant to the topic. None of what you have posted really proves that they are any better than classes that don't even have this as a core feature which is my point....
So you just need a cleric or druid to be as good or better than a ranger as they can accomplish this in any terrain not just the favored one and from early levels as well. Other classes not only do it better but with a wider variety of choices.
I do because they do not scale in any appreciable way.....your 1st level ranger favored enemy is the same at 1st level and 20th....you just get more of them.
Getting more of them is scaling; it means you gain the bonuses against an increasing number of enemy types. Depending on how you pick them, and your campaign, you could cover nearly every enemy you're likely to face.
or it could not....with no way to change you are stuck with your choices while the Enhance Ability, expertise, etc... will work in ANY environment.
or it could not....with no way to change you are stuck with your choices while the Enhance Ability, expertise, etc... will work in ANY environment.
Its just not good design.
The feature literally recommends that you pick creature types you've actually encountered on your adventures; if your DM then vindictively decides to never have you face that type of enemy ever again then your problem isn't bad design, it's a bad DM, in which case you have far bigger issues. More likely is when you level up you can just tell your DM which type of enemy you're thinking of picking, and they can nudge you towards picking something else instead, or adapt their enemy lists so you're not being left out (good DMs adapt their encounters to the characters and players, that's just a normal part of DMing).
Sure, Enhance Ability can work whenever you want, but it costs a Ranger's already limited resources in order to use it, and the choice isn't either/or; when you're up against your favoured enemies you don't need it and can save the resources, when you're not up against them then you can use the spell (as long as you're using the Additional Ranger Spells feature) as you have both.
You seem to be going out of your way to invent hypothetical problems without putting the same effort into thinking of the solutions; but you can already literally choose what you want to do thanks to the optional features, so what is your problem with people who choose differently?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
The PHB beast master can have a passive perception of 20+ at level 3 via the companion.
You just listed stuff that takes 3 or more different types of classes to achieve, and in some cases a very specific combination of background and subclass. The ranger can do it all. From it’s main class and spells. Easy.
At this point I’ll come back to play style for you again. You are actively trying to find arguments against anything brought to the conversation contrary to your own.
I’m happy you’re happy with the Tasha’s optional ranger features. I’m sorry you don’t like, appreciate, understand, or like to use how to use the original ranger abilities in the game.
How are you getting this perception? you only get to add your proficiency bonus to their skills so at level 3 that's a +3? The best perception I can find is +5 so that is an 18 passive perception....
Also no enhance ability and the food creation are 1 class (Druid or Cleric). You can get expertise in a skill via Skill Expert now so you could argue that at cleric or druid could blow a ranger away easily.
Also yes I am talking about how PHB ranger features are underwhelming in a thread entitled "Ranger Underpowered?" as it directly relevant to the topic. None of what you have posted really proves that they are any better than classes that don't even have this as a core feature which is my point....
So you just need a cleric or druid to be as good or better than a ranger as they can accomplish this in any terrain not just the favored one and from early levels as well. Other classes not only do it better but with a wider variety of choices.
The wolf was a passive perception of 13 in it’s stat block. Add the ranger’s PB at level 3 and you have a wolf PP of 15. Add to that +5 when using hearing or smell from its keen senses ability and the wolf has a PP for hearing and smell of 20. A blood hawk, using the same things, has a PP for sight of 21.
Having expertise in one or two skills is at best a 10% buff some of the time at level 3. The ranger can do things that the cleric and druid can do as well. The main differences with the ranger is that 1. this all comes standard with the kit so no multiclassing, feats, or special background taken, 2. the things a ranger does for travel effects the entire group positively, and 3. this is all at no cost; no spell slot needed, no spell learned or prepared.
Wizard, fighter, rogue, druid/cleric. All of these classes and some subclasses and a background can collectively do kind if what a ranger does when not in their favored terrain or working with a favored enemy. But none of them individually do what a ranger does. And they can’t collectively do what a ranger does when in their favored terrain and working with their favored enemy.
Cleric and druid get it as part of the kit as well..... No add on for Enhance Ability.
I will say you are right with the PP because I forgot the ADV increases PP.
Still overall the Cleric and Druid have better flex as their Spells give you more versatility than ranger as they are locked down to one biome.
The ability to create food and have advantage on checks on a single ability for an hour (spell slots and concentration required) does not a ranger make.
or it could not....with no way to change you are stuck with your choices while the Enhance Ability, expertise, etc... will work in ANY environment.
Its just not good design.
The feature literally recommends that you pick creature types you've actually encountered on your adventures; if your DM then vindictively decides to never have you face that type of enemy ever again then your problem isn't bad design, it's a bad DM, in which case you have far bigger issues. More likely is when you level up you can just tell your DM which type of enemy you're thinking of picking, and they can nudge you towards picking something else instead, or adapt their enemy lists so you're not being left out (good DMs adapt their encounters to the characters and players, that's just a normal part of DMing).
Sure, Enhance Ability can work whenever you want, but it costs a Ranger's already limited resources in order to use it, and the choice isn't either/or; when you're up against your favoured enemies you don't need it and can save the resources, when you're not up against them then you can use the spell (as long as you're using the Additional Ranger Spells feature) as you have both.
You seem to be going out of your way to invent hypothetical problems without putting the same effort into thinking of the solutions; but you can already literally choose what you want to do thanks to the optional features, so what is your problem with people who choose differently?
No problem whatsoever as long as your fine with a worse ability.
Cleric and druid get it as part of the kit as well..... No add on for Enhance Ability.
I will say you are right with the PP because I forgot the ADV increases PP.
Still overall the Cleric and Druid have better flex as their Spells give you more versatility than ranger as they are locked down to one biome.
The ability to create food and have advantage on checks on a single ability for an hour (spell slots and concentration required) does not a ranger make.
No problem whatsoever as long as your fine with a worse ability.
Except that it's not; Favored Enemy can only be swapped for Favored Foe, but Favored Foe is not stronger.
Both are fine, but they are also very different abilities and suit very different builds of Ranger. I'm generally an advocate of Favored Foe not being bad as people claim, but I'll also point out that it's boring and not terribly thematic, it's just a knock-off Hunter's Mark; it's a great tool to have for a build that either doesn't want regular Hunter's Mark, or needs the extra resource, but Favored Enemy is far more thematic as it literally encourages you to expand your list of favored enemies based upon what you actually face, and it's going to fit a lot of character builds better, but it can depend on your campaign, but so what?
Put another way; Favored Foe is good because it saves resources, but you are literally advocating burning the same resources to get around not having Favored Enemy by throwing spells at a problem that a Ranger with good Favored Enemy picks doesn't need to burn spells on. They essentially both save the same resources, but for different reasons and different aspects of the game.
If you keep stubbornly insisting that Favored Enemy is worse then it says more about you as a player and what your priorities for character building are, either that or the campaigns (or hypothetical situations you white-room) as a group run by a good supportive DM should take full advantage of having a Ranger in the party.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Cleric and druid get it as part of the kit as well..... No add on for Enhance Ability.
I will say you are right with the PP because I forgot the ADV increases PP.
Still overall the Cleric and Druid have better flex as their Spells give you more versatility than ranger as they are locked down to one biome.
The ability to create food and have advantage on checks on a single ability for an hour (spell slots and concentration required) does not a ranger make.
Just 99% of one sure.
I realize this is just my opinion and personal take on the use of the abilities we are discussing, but I don’t think you know how to use the ranger abilities, Optimus.
In a game that uses any of this stuff at all, forgetting the ranger for just a moment, you saying it (anything that isn’t combat, apparently) all boils down to a die roll or two, is just plain reckless. Either you are purposely being difficult or don’t know how this entire part of the game works mechanically, narratively, or thematically.
Looking over Favored Enemy, one way in which I think it's poorly designed - I remarked earlier in this thread that I think its primary flaw is simply that you have to make a choice without knowledge of what your campaign entails, and then that choice is locked in forever without a way to change it - is that it implies all creature types are equal, and they aren't, not even remotely. 5E was supposed to be designed without crippling choice traps in it, but there Favored Enemy sits, letting you pick oozes, as if that's a reasonable, balanced choice for most any campaign.
If it has to be a static choice - which I continue to maintain is poor form, and I approve of Tasha's by and large moving away from this, giving PCs ways to change cantrips and fighting styles as they level - it should be designed more like Channel Divinity, and let you pick a set of types based on a common theme, to make the choices more balanced against each other. I'll make some up:
Bipeds: Pick any 10 humanoid sub-races; Giants can be taken, counting as 1 choice. If you choose this and are a humanoid, you also get your own sub-race as a free sixth choice; if you aren't, you get your own race as a free sixth choice.
You get the idea. Choosing a thematic set makes it far less likely you've made a poor choice you can't change later.
Cleric and druid get it as part of the kit as well..... No add on for Enhance Ability.
I will say you are right with the PP because I forgot the ADV increases PP.
Still overall the Cleric and Druid have better flex as their Spells give you more versatility than ranger as they are locked down to one biome.
The ability to create food and have advantage on checks on a single ability for an hour (spell slots and concentration required) does not a ranger make.
Just 99% of one sure.
I realize this is just my opinion and personal take on the use of the abilities we are discussing, but I don’t think you know how to use the ranger abilities, Optimus.
In a game that uses any of this stuff at all, forgetting the ranger for just a moment, you saying it (anything that isn’t combat, apparently) all boils down to a die roll or two, is just plain reckless. Either you are purposely being difficult or don’t know how this entire part of the game works mechanically, narratively, or thematically.
Oh I know how to use them.... Which is why I understand how limited they are
Looking over Favored Enemy, one way in which I think it's poorly designed - I remarked earlier in this thread that I think its primary flaw is simply that you have to make a choice without knowledge of what your campaign entails, and then that choice is locked in forever without a way to change it - is that it implies all creature types are equal, and they aren't, not even remotely. 5E was supposed to be designed without crippling choice traps in it, but there Favored Enemy sits, letting you pick oozes, as if that's a reasonable, balanced choice for most any campaign.
If it has to be a static choice - which I continue to maintain is poor form, and I approve of Tasha's by and large moving away from this, giving PCs ways to change cantrips and fighting styles as they level - it should be designed more like Channel Divinity, and let you pick a set of types based on a common theme, to make the choices more balanced against each other. I'll make some up:
Bipeds: Pick any 10 humanoid sub-races; Giants can be taken, counting as 1 choice. If you choose this and are a humanoid, you also get your own sub-race as a free sixth choice; if you aren't, you get your own race as a free sixth choice.
You get the idea. Choosing a thematic set makes it far less likely you've made a poor choice you can't change later.
I agree... Basically if it was more broad it would be better.
Cleric and druid get it as part of the kit as well..... No add on for Enhance Ability.
I will say you are right with the PP because I forgot the ADV increases PP.
Still overall the Cleric and Druid have better flex as their Spells give you more versatility than ranger as they are locked down to one biome.
The ability to create food and have advantage on checks on a single ability for an hour (spell slots and concentration required) does not a ranger make.
Just 99% of one sure.
I realize this is just my opinion and personal take on the use of the abilities we are discussing, but I don’t think you know how to use the ranger abilities, Optimus.
In a game that uses any of this stuff at all, forgetting the ranger for just a moment, you saying it (anything that isn’t combat, apparently) all boils down to a die roll or two, is just plain reckless. Either you are purposely being difficult or don’t know how this entire part of the game works mechanically, narratively, or thematically.
Oh I know how to use them.... Which is why I understand how limited they are
Mmm... Maybe.
Well, I’m very sorry you dislike them so. They are fantastic. Situational. Sure. But I’ve never had an issue feeling or being worthless in game or overshadowed by other PCs or having a wasted class ability. Never.
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The PHB beast master can have a passive perception of 20+ at level 3 via the companion.
You just listed stuff that takes 3 or more different types of classes to achieve, and in some cases a very specific combination of background and subclass. The ranger can do it all. From it’s main class and spells. Easy.
At this point I’ll come back to play style for you again. You are actively trying to find arguments against anything brought to the conversation contrary to your own.
I’m happy you’re happy with the Tasha’s optional ranger features. I’m sorry you don’t like, appreciate, understand, or like to use how to use the original ranger abilities in the game.
The PHB beast master can have a passive perception of 20+ at level 3 via the companion.
You just listed stuff that takes 3 or more different types of classes to achieve, and in some cases a very specific combination of background and subclass. The ranger can do it all. From it’s main class and spells. Easy.
At this point I’ll come back to play style for you again. You are actively trying to find arguments against anything brought to the conversation contrary to your own.
I’m happy you’re happy with the Tasha’s optional ranger features. I’m sorry you don’t like, appreciate, [REDACTED], or like to use how to use the original ranger abilities in the game.
I do because they do not scale in any appreciable way.....your 1st level ranger favored enemy is the same at 1st level and 20th....you just get more of them.
So its an applicable comparison...especially since things like expertise are from 1st level on as well. Enhance ability is a 2nd level spell so good to go from 3rd level on.
Overall its a fair comparison as you are either closely approximating or overcoming the benefit ranger gets....unless its a highly niche case in which its both your terrain and favored enemy.....one should not expect that all the time or even majority of the time.
You say both...
”...they do not scale in any appreciable way.....your 1st level ranger favored enemy is the same at 1st level and 20th....you just get more of them.”
and
“...unless its a highly niche case in which its both your terrain and favored enemy.....one should not expect that all the time or even majority of the time.”
This is literally scaling. Just in width instead of depth.
Again, no one character is going to have many, certainly not all, of the needed resources to accomplish all of the counterpoints you are making. And if a player built a character that did, well, let them, as they earned it.
Ridiculous.
Getting more of them is scaling; it means you gain the bonuses against an increasing number of enemy types. Depending on how you pick them, and your campaign, you could cover nearly every enemy you're likely to face.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
How are you getting this perception? you only get to add your proficiency bonus to their skills so at level 3 that's a +3? The best perception I can find is +5 so that is an 18 passive perception....
Also no enhance ability and the food creation are 1 class (Druid or Cleric). You can get expertise in a skill via Skill Expert now so you could argue that at cleric or druid could blow a ranger away easily.
Also yes I am talking about how PHB ranger features are underwhelming in a thread entitled "Ranger Underpowered?" as it directly relevant to the topic. None of what you have posted really proves that they are any better than classes that don't even have this as a core feature which is my point....
So you just need a cleric or druid to be as good or better than a ranger as they can accomplish this in any terrain not just the favored one and from early levels as well. Other classes not only do it better but with a wider variety of choices.
or it could not....with no way to change you are stuck with your choices while the Enhance Ability, expertise, etc... will work in ANY environment.
Its just not good design.
The feature literally recommends that you pick creature types you've actually encountered on your adventures; if your DM then vindictively decides to never have you face that type of enemy ever again then your problem isn't bad design, it's a bad DM, in which case you have far bigger issues. More likely is when you level up you can just tell your DM which type of enemy you're thinking of picking, and they can nudge you towards picking something else instead, or adapt their enemy lists so you're not being left out (good DMs adapt their encounters to the characters and players, that's just a normal part of DMing).
Sure, Enhance Ability can work whenever you want, but it costs a Ranger's already limited resources in order to use it, and the choice isn't either/or; when you're up against your favoured enemies you don't need it and can save the resources, when you're not up against them then you can use the spell (as long as you're using the Additional Ranger Spells feature) as you have both.
You seem to be going out of your way to invent hypothetical problems without putting the same effort into thinking of the solutions; but you can already literally choose what you want to do thanks to the optional features, so what is your problem with people who choose differently?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
The wolf was a passive perception of 13 in it’s stat block. Add the ranger’s PB at level 3 and you have a wolf PP of 15. Add to that +5 when using hearing or smell from its keen senses ability and the wolf has a PP for hearing and smell of 20. A blood hawk, using the same things, has a PP for sight of 21.
Having expertise in one or two skills is at best a 10% buff some of the time at level 3. The ranger can do things that the cleric and druid can do as well. The main differences with the ranger is that 1. this all comes standard with the kit so no multiclassing, feats, or special background taken, 2. the things a ranger does for travel effects the entire group positively, and 3. this is all at no cost; no spell slot needed, no spell learned or prepared.
Wizard, fighter, rogue, druid/cleric. All of these classes and some subclasses and a background can collectively do kind if what a ranger does when not in their favored terrain or working with a favored enemy. But none of them individually do what a ranger does. And they can’t collectively do what a ranger does when in their favored terrain and working with their favored enemy.
Cleric and druid get it as part of the kit as well..... No add on for Enhance Ability.
I will say you are right with the PP because I forgot the ADV increases PP.
Still overall the Cleric and Druid have better flex as their Spells give you more versatility than ranger as they are locked down to one biome.
The ability to create food and have advantage on checks on a single ability for an hour (spell slots and concentration required) does not a ranger make.
No problem whatsoever as long as your fine with a worse ability.
Just 99% of one sure.
Except that it's not; Favored Enemy can only be swapped for Favored Foe, but Favored Foe is not stronger.
Both are fine, but they are also very different abilities and suit very different builds of Ranger. I'm generally an advocate of Favored Foe not being bad as people claim, but I'll also point out that it's boring and not terribly thematic, it's just a knock-off Hunter's Mark; it's a great tool to have for a build that either doesn't want regular Hunter's Mark, or needs the extra resource, but Favored Enemy is far more thematic as it literally encourages you to expand your list of favored enemies based upon what you actually face, and it's going to fit a lot of character builds better, but it can depend on your campaign, but so what?
Put another way; Favored Foe is good because it saves resources, but you are literally advocating burning the same resources to get around not having Favored Enemy by throwing spells at a problem that a Ranger with good Favored Enemy picks doesn't need to burn spells on. They essentially both save the same resources, but for different reasons and different aspects of the game.
If you keep stubbornly insisting that Favored Enemy is worse then it says more about you as a player and what your priorities for character building are, either that or the campaigns (or hypothetical situations you white-room) as a group run by a good supportive DM should take full advantage of having a Ranger in the party.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I realize this is just my opinion and personal take on the use of the abilities we are discussing, but I don’t think you know how to use the ranger abilities, Optimus.
In a game that uses any of this stuff at all, forgetting the ranger for just a moment, you saying it (anything that isn’t combat, apparently) all boils down to a die roll or two, is just plain reckless. Either you are purposely being difficult or don’t know how this entire part of the game works mechanically, narratively, or thematically.
Yeah...They stopped arguing in good faith ages ago.
Looking over Favored Enemy, one way in which I think it's poorly designed - I remarked earlier in this thread that I think its primary flaw is simply that you have to make a choice without knowledge of what your campaign entails, and then that choice is locked in forever without a way to change it - is that it implies all creature types are equal, and they aren't, not even remotely. 5E was supposed to be designed without crippling choice traps in it, but there Favored Enemy sits, letting you pick oozes, as if that's a reasonable, balanced choice for most any campaign.
If it has to be a static choice - which I continue to maintain is poor form, and I approve of Tasha's by and large moving away from this, giving PCs ways to change cantrips and fighting styles as they level - it should be designed more like Channel Divinity, and let you pick a set of types based on a common theme, to make the choices more balanced against each other. I'll make some up:
Extraplanar: Aberrations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends.
Unnatural: Aberrations, constructs, monstrosities, oozes, undead.
Nature: Beasts, dragons, plants, elementals, fey.
Bipeds: Pick any 10 humanoid sub-races; Giants can be taken, counting as 1 choice. If you choose this and are a humanoid, you also get your own sub-race as a free sixth choice; if you aren't, you get your own race as a free sixth choice.
You get the idea. Choosing a thematic set makes it far less likely you've made a poor choice you can't change later.
Oh I know how to use them.... Which is why I understand how limited they are
I agree... Basically if it was more broad it would be better.
Mmm... Maybe.
Well, I’m very sorry you dislike them so. They are fantastic. Situational. Sure. But I’ve never had an issue feeling or being worthless in game or overshadowed by other PCs or having a wasted class ability. Never.