I actually deal with a lot of this getting from point A to Point B in the method that unless where they are going is close and well traveled. There are a lot of other places to go through.
People forget that things like Mountain Passes, short cuts through ancient cliffs or caves, and all kinds of other stuff can happen during the traveling part that become adventures of their own without actually side tracking from the Main Storyline. Sure at higher level they can bypass these with teleports or fancy modes of travel. But when they are on foot. People forget that half of the adventure can be the places that they have to get through or the things that they discover on the way. Traveling the road is not always meant to be the fastest. Or even the real way to get to places.
So you can do more than just a few random encounter and perception check rolls with a few random fights. You use those for variety... but other things might be an Adventure all on it's own that doesn't change the end goal at all. But does give the characters something to do. And if they are lucky. Something that will help them on their way.
If your planning you own worlds. Consider some area's where It's 3 weeks of boring travel to go one way because it's the long way around and they go through 5 villages and it's relatively safe. But it's a little less than 1 week if they go this other route but it's highly dangerous and It goes right past the camp of the Thunder Dam Orc tribe or along the Stair of the Scholars but almost nobody takes that way because it's rumored to be haunted and people often go missing when they try that route. Just the kind of thing for a group of adventurer's on an important mission trying to do things fast and they find out the Stair of Scholars is really a once venerated crypt where the dead were honored or the corrupted temple of an ancient god once they get there.
Even then is likely boils down a few survival/stealth rolls....which granted you will be good at but ultimately is over in about 20-30 minutes tops.
If combat ensues or you find a place to actually move around and explore the other classes are generally better at it thanks to mobility, class features, and spells.
Like the idea of it is great....but execution comes down to a handful of rolls that you are likely to succeed then move on to the interesting part.
I actually deal with a lot of this getting from point A to Point B in the method that unless where they are going is close and well traveled. There are a lot of other places to go through.
People forget that things like Mountain Passes, short cuts through ancient cliffs or caves, and all kinds of other stuff can happen during the traveling part that become adventures of their own without actually side tracking from the Main Storyline. Sure at higher level they can bypass these with teleports or fancy modes of travel. But when they are on foot. People forget that half of the adventure can be the places that they have to get through or the things that they discover on the way. Traveling the road is not always meant to be the fastest. Or even the real way to get to places.
So you can do more than just a few random encounter and perception check rolls with a few random fights. You use those for variety... but other things might be an Adventure all on it's own that doesn't change the end goal at all. But does give the characters something to do. And if they are lucky. Something that will help them on their way.
If your planning you own worlds. Consider some area's where It's 3 weeks of boring travel to go one way because it's the long way around and they go through 5 villages and it's relatively safe. But it's a little less than 1 week if they go this other route but it's highly dangerous and It goes right past the camp of the Thunder Dam Orc tribe or along the Stair of the Scholars but almost nobody takes that way because it's rumored to be haunted and people often go missing when they try that route. Just the kind of thing for a group of adventurer's on an important mission trying to do things fast and they find out the Stair of Scholars is really a once venerated crypt where the dead were honored or the corrupted temple of an ancient god once they get there.
Even then is likely boils down a few survival/stealth rolls....which granted you will be good at but ultimately is over in about 20-30 minutes tops.
If combat ensues or you find a place to actually move around and explore the other classes are generally better at it thanks to mobility, class features, and spells.
Like the idea of it is great....but execution comes down to a handful of rolls that you are likely to succeed then move on to the interesting part.
Execution comes down to a handful of rolls if that is all you boil it down to. You can turn sections like this into dungeon crawls very easily. And they don't have to just be combat after combat after combat. They can actually take a variety of skills or even a group effort to get through that aren't just over-ridden by a Ranger just like in a regular adventure.
There may be traps laid. there may be puzzles to solve. There may be things that you need to talk to and barter passage with. not Getting lost is nice. But that doesn't help when there is no obvious path or when multiple paths seem to lead the right way and you have to make a choice as to which one to take which your ignoring. These things happen in dungeon modules all the time and don't always resolve with just a simple dice roll. Even in ones that are combat heavy and these are things that can be done on such journeys. Again without changing the overall end goal of the mission the characters are on.
I actually deal with a lot of this getting from point A to Point B in the method that unless where they are going is close and well traveled. There are a lot of other places to go through.
People forget that things like Mountain Passes, short cuts through ancient cliffs or caves, and all kinds of other stuff can happen during the traveling part that become adventures of their own without actually side tracking from the Main Storyline. Sure at higher level they can bypass these with teleports or fancy modes of travel. But when they are on foot. People forget that half of the adventure can be the places that they have to get through or the things that they discover on the way. Traveling the road is not always meant to be the fastest. Or even the real way to get to places.
So you can do more than just a few random encounter and perception check rolls with a few random fights. You use those for variety... but other things might be an Adventure all on it's own that doesn't change the end goal at all. But does give the characters something to do. And if they are lucky. Something that will help them on their way.
If your planning you own worlds. Consider some area's where It's 3 weeks of boring travel to go one way because it's the long way around and they go through 5 villages and it's relatively safe. But it's a little less than 1 week if they go this other route but it's highly dangerous and It goes right past the camp of the Thunder Dam Orc tribe or along the Stair of the Scholars but almost nobody takes that way because it's rumored to be haunted and people often go missing when they try that route. Just the kind of thing for a group of adventurer's on an important mission trying to do things fast and they find out the Stair of Scholars is really a once venerated crypt where the dead were honored or the corrupted temple of an ancient god once they get there.
Even then is likely boils down a few survival/stealth rolls....which granted you will be good at but ultimately is over in about 20-30 minutes tops.
If combat ensues or you find a place to actually move around and explore the other classes are generally better at it thanks to mobility, class features, and spells.
Like the idea of it is great....but execution comes down to a handful of rolls that you are likely to succeed then move on to the interesting part.
Execution comes down to a handful of rolls if that is all you boil it down to. You can turn sections like this into dungeon crawls very easily. And they don't have to just be combat after combat after combat. They can actually take a variety of skills or even a group effort to get through that aren't just over-ridden by a Ranger just like in a regular adventure.
There may be traps laid. there may be puzzles to solve. There may be things that you need to talk to and barter passage with. not Getting lost is nice. But that doesn't help when there is no obvious path or when multiple paths seem to lead the right way and you have to make a choice as to which one to take which your ignoring. These things happen in dungeon modules all the time and don't always resolve with just a simple dice roll. Even in ones that are combat heavy and these are things that can be done on such journeys. Again without changing the overall end goal of the mission the characters are on.
Traps- Investigation/Spells- Ranger does not have special help with this and can be better handled by Rogues (Expertise in Thieves tools to disarm) or spellcasters (Fly to just get over the trap)
Puzzles- This is mostly a party issue and Investigation is typically used to garner clues (at least per all of tasha's puzzles) again the PHB ranger has no advantages here over better suited classes. Detecting magic, mage hand, and various other options they do not get are generally better suited for dealing with these situations. Their out of combat abilities have no real impact here.
Social Discussions/Barter- Again no advantages for the PHB ranger to deal with this situation unless it is somehow related to their favored enemy on recalled information that could maybe help...and even then its about on par with INT based rolls. This might be the only one they at least get some help with but its niche as it has to be your favored enemy...which might not be too keen on dealing with you anyway.
Not getting lost- this literally boils down to a roll regardless of how you play it...you either get lost or you don't and I do not see an interesting way to draw this out.
Even in the scenarios you presented the ranger is not really set up to succeed in any of them with the PHB options.
Again I would ask: How do you meaningfully use their out of combat ribbon features in these scenarios? The idea of them doing well here is there but the actual execution is hardly present.
I actually deal with a lot of this getting from point A to Point B in the method that unless where they are going is close and well traveled. There are a lot of other places to go through.
People forget that things like Mountain Passes, short cuts through ancient cliffs or caves, and all kinds of other stuff can happen during the traveling part that become adventures of their own without actually side tracking from the Main Storyline. Sure at higher level they can bypass these with teleports or fancy modes of travel. But when they are on foot. People forget that half of the adventure can be the places that they have to get through or the things that they discover on the way. Traveling the road is not always meant to be the fastest. Or even the real way to get to places.
So you can do more than just a few random encounter and perception check rolls with a few random fights. You use those for variety... but other things might be an Adventure all on it's own that doesn't change the end goal at all. But does give the characters something to do. And if they are lucky. Something that will help them on their way.
If your planning you own worlds. Consider some area's where It's 3 weeks of boring travel to go one way because it's the long way around and they go through 5 villages and it's relatively safe. But it's a little less than 1 week if they go this other route but it's highly dangerous and It goes right past the camp of the Thunder Dam Orc tribe or along the Stair of the Scholars but almost nobody takes that way because it's rumored to be haunted and people often go missing when they try that route. Just the kind of thing for a group of adventurer's on an important mission trying to do things fast and they find out the Stair of Scholars is really a once venerated crypt where the dead were honored or the corrupted temple of an ancient god once they get there.
Even then is likely boils down a few survival/stealth rolls....which granted you will be good at but ultimately is over in about 20-30 minutes tops.
If combat ensues or you find a place to actually move around and explore the other classes are generally better at it thanks to mobility, class features, and spells.
Like the idea of it is great....but execution comes down to a handful of rolls that you are likely to succeed then move on to the interesting part.
Execution comes down to a handful of rolls if that is all you boil it down to. You can turn sections like this into dungeon crawls very easily. And they don't have to just be combat after combat after combat. They can actually take a variety of skills or even a group effort to get through that aren't just over-ridden by a Ranger just like in a regular adventure.
There may be traps laid. there may be puzzles to solve. There may be things that you need to talk to and barter passage with. not Getting lost is nice. But that doesn't help when there is no obvious path or when multiple paths seem to lead the right way and you have to make a choice as to which one to take which your ignoring. These things happen in dungeon modules all the time and don't always resolve with just a simple dice roll. Even in ones that are combat heavy and these are things that can be done on such journeys. Again without changing the overall end goal of the mission the characters are on.
Traps- Investigation/Spells- Ranger does not have special help with this and can be better handled by Rogues (Expertise in Thieves tools to disarm) or spellcasters (Fly to just get over the trap)
Puzzles- This is mostly a party issue and Investigation is typically used to garner clues (at least per all of tasha's puzzles) again the PHB ranger has no advantages here over better suited classes. Detecting magic, mage hand, and various other options they do not get are generally better suited for dealing with these situations. Their out of combat abilities have no real impact here.
Social Discussions/Barter- Again no advantages for the PHB ranger to deal with this situation unless it is somehow related to their favored enemy on recalled information that could maybe help...and even then its about on par with INT based rolls. This might be the only one they at least get some help with but its niche as it has to be your favored enemy...which might not be too keen on dealing with you anyway.
Not getting lost- this literally boils down to a roll regardless of how you play it...you either get lost or you don't and I do not see an interesting way to draw this out.
Even in the scenarios you presented the ranger is not really set up to succeed in any of them with the PHB options.
Again I would ask: How do you meaningfully use their out of combat ribbon features in these scenarios? The idea of them doing well here is there but the actual execution is hardly present.
I think this is a play style hurdle for you, Optimus. You speak of a few rolls and such to resolve travel and overland exploration, but that can be the same thing for anything in the game depending on how it’s being played. Dungeon travel, social encounters, even combats, all COULD be boiled down to a few simple rolls to resolve. If folks put half as much effort into planning some interesting events and challenges during a trip as they do even a medium CR combat encounter we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Traps- Investigation/Spells- Ranger does not have special help with this and can be better handled by Rogues (Expertise in Thieves tools to disarm) or spellcasters (Fly to just get over the trap)
Puzzles- This is mostly a party issue and Investigation is typically used to garner clues (at least per all of tasha's puzzles) again the PHB ranger has no advantages here over better suited classes. Detecting magic, mage hand, and various other options they do not get are generally better suited for dealing with these situations. Their out of combat abilities have no real impact here.
Social Discussions/Barter- Again no advantages for the PHB ranger to deal with this situation unless it is somehow related to their favored enemy on recalled information that could maybe help...and even then its about on par with INT based rolls. This might be the only one they at least get some help with but its niche as it has to be your favored enemy...which might not be too keen on dealing with you anyway.
Not getting lost- this literally boils down to a roll regardless of how you play it...you either get lost or you don't and I do not see an interesting way to draw this out.
Even in the scenarios you presented the ranger is not really set up to succeed in any of them with the PHB options.
Again I would ask: How do you meaningfully use their out of combat ribbon features in these scenarios? The idea of them doing well here is there but the actual execution is hardly present.
I think this is a play style hurdle for you, Optimus. You speak of a few rolls and such to resolve travel and overland exploration, but that can be the same thing for anything in the game depending on how it’s being played. Dungeon travel, social encounters, even combats, all COULD be boiled down to a few simple rolls to resolve. If folks put half as much effort into planning some interesting events and challenges during a trip as they do even a medium CR combat encounter we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
also given that the exploration pillar of the game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone at the table, not having the ranger be the key that automatically solves every encounter is also to some degree a good thing, as long as the ranger has some niche to work with.
and like, it cannot be that hard to make getting lost an exiting or meaningful experience, or at least doing so with correcting your path and finding your way back. Depending on context and narration, it might require cooperation or navigation obstacles. But then that requires going outside the framework set up by the official rules. And also Natural Explorer automatically making you immune to getting lost kind of ruins the fun a bit
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Traps- Investigation/Spells- Ranger does not have special help with this and can be better handled by Rogues (Expertise in Thieves tools to disarm) or spellcasters (Fly to just get over the trap)
Puzzles- This is mostly a party issue and Investigation is typically used to garner clues (at least per all of tasha's puzzles) again the PHB ranger has no advantages here over better suited classes. Detecting magic, mage hand, and various other options they do not get are generally better suited for dealing with these situations. Their out of combat abilities have no real impact here.
Social Discussions/Barter- Again no advantages for the PHB ranger to deal with this situation unless it is somehow related to their favored enemy on recalled information that could maybe help...and even then its about on par with INT based rolls. This might be the only one they at least get some help with but its niche as it has to be your favored enemy...which might not be too keen on dealing with you anyway.
Not getting lost- this literally boils down to a roll regardless of how you play it...you either get lost or you don't and I do not see an interesting way to draw this out.
Even in the scenarios you presented the ranger is not really set up to succeed in any of them with the PHB options.
Again I would ask: How do you meaningfully use their out of combat ribbon features in these scenarios? The idea of them doing well here is there but the actual execution is hardly present.
I think this is a play style hurdle for you, Optimus. You speak of a few rolls and such to resolve travel and overland exploration, but that can be the same thing for anything in the game depending on how it’s being played. Dungeon travel, social encounters, even combats, all COULD be boiled down to a few simple rolls to resolve. If folks put half as much effort into planning some interesting events and challenges during a trip as they do even a medium CR combat encounter we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
also given that the exploration pillar of the game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone at the table, not having the ranger be the key that automatically solves every encounter is also to some degree a good thing, as long as the ranger has some niche to work with.
and like, it cannot be that hard to make getting lost an exiting or meaningful experience, or at least doing so with correcting your path and finding your way back. Depending on context and narration, it might require cooperation or navigation obstacles. But then that requires going outside the framework set up by the official rules. And also Natural Explorer automatically making you immune to getting lost kind of ruins the fun a bit
Thats my question though that no one has been able to answer yet....
How do you make it meaningful? The options listed were not really something a ranger would be good at with the options given to them...which is why I think they are not the greatest.
I think the Tasha's options are much more meaningful because they apply to a wider variety of experiences. Swim and Climb speed makes the ranger able to navigate the world a lot easier than most and the expertise in a skill makes it so they can do survival and apply to a larger area of applications.
Even the exhaustion removal on a short rest makes so much more sense as the DMG suggests exhaustion for traversal through hostile environments.
They actually change your play experience in a meaningful way that allows you to use them in a wider sense....something the PHB options fail utterly to do.
I actually deal with a lot of this getting from point A to Point B in the method that unless where they are going is close and well traveled. There are a lot of other places to go through.
People forget that things like Mountain Passes, short cuts through ancient cliffs or caves, and all kinds of other stuff can happen during the traveling part that become adventures of their own without actually side tracking from the Main Storyline. Sure at higher level they can bypass these with teleports or fancy modes of travel. But when they are on foot. People forget that half of the adventure can be the places that they have to get through or the things that they discover on the way. Traveling the road is not always meant to be the fastest. Or even the real way to get to places.
So you can do more than just a few random encounter and perception check rolls with a few random fights. You use those for variety... but other things might be an Adventure all on it's own that doesn't change the end goal at all. But does give the characters something to do. And if they are lucky. Something that will help them on their way.
If your planning you own worlds. Consider some area's where It's 3 weeks of boring travel to go one way because it's the long way around and they go through 5 villages and it's relatively safe. But it's a little less than 1 week if they go this other route but it's highly dangerous and It goes right past the camp of the Thunder Dam Orc tribe or along the Stair of the Scholars but almost nobody takes that way because it's rumored to be haunted and people often go missing when they try that route. Just the kind of thing for a group of adventurer's on an important mission trying to do things fast and they find out the Stair of Scholars is really a once venerated crypt where the dead were honored or the corrupted temple of an ancient god once they get there.
Even then is likely boils down a few survival/stealth rolls....which granted you will be good at but ultimately is over in about 20-30 minutes tops.
If combat ensues or you find a place to actually move around and explore the other classes are generally better at it thanks to mobility, class features, and spells.
Like the idea of it is great....but execution comes down to a handful of rolls that you are likely to succeed then move on to the interesting part.
Execution comes down to a handful of rolls if that is all you boil it down to. You can turn sections like this into dungeon crawls very easily. And they don't have to just be combat after combat after combat. They can actually take a variety of skills or even a group effort to get through that aren't just over-ridden by a Ranger just like in a regular adventure.
There may be traps laid. there may be puzzles to solve. There may be things that you need to talk to and barter passage with. not Getting lost is nice. But that doesn't help when there is no obvious path or when multiple paths seem to lead the right way and you have to make a choice as to which one to take which your ignoring. These things happen in dungeon modules all the time and don't always resolve with just a simple dice roll. Even in ones that are combat heavy and these are things that can be done on such journeys. Again without changing the overall end goal of the mission the characters are on.
Traps- Investigation/Spells- Ranger does not have special help with this and can be better handled by Rogues (Expertise in Thieves tools to disarm) or spellcasters (Fly to just get over the trap)
Puzzles- This is mostly a party issue and Investigation is typically used to garner clues (at least per all of tasha's puzzles) again the PHB ranger has no advantages here over better suited classes. Detecting magic, mage hand, and various other options they do not get are generally better suited for dealing with these situations. Their out of combat abilities have no real impact here.
Social Discussions/Barter- Again no advantages for the PHB ranger to deal with this situation unless it is somehow related to their favored enemy on recalled information that could maybe help...and even then its about on par with INT based rolls. This might be the only one they at least get some help with but its niche as it has to be your favored enemy...which might not be too keen on dealing with you anyway.
Not getting lost- this literally boils down to a roll regardless of how you play it...you either get lost or you don't and I do not see an interesting way to draw this out.
Even in the scenarios you presented the ranger is not really set up to succeed in any of them with the PHB options.
Again I would ask: How do you meaningfully use their out of combat ribbon features in these scenarios? The idea of them doing well here is there but the actual execution is hardly present.
I think this is a play style hurdle for you, Optimus. You speak of a few rolls and such to resolve travel and overland exploration, but that can be the same thing for anything in the game depending on how it’s being played. Dungeon travel, social encounters, even combats, all COULD be boiled down to a few simple rolls to resolve. If folks put half as much effort into planning some interesting events and challenges during a trip as they do even a medium CR combat encounter we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Combat at least has a lot of dynamics that are variable by the creatures you use and what the environment gives you to work with.
Social talks may rely on rolls but can engage every member of the party for hours potentially if its a contentious topic that means something to your character.
Traps are the simplest thing mentioned and do rely on simple rolls to avoid/notice....but at least they appear universally and not just in select settings related to your chosen terrian.
Overall people say they can make it meaningful but fail to produce examples on how they do it.
Traps- Investigation/Spells- Ranger does not have special help with this and can be better handled by Rogues (Expertise in Thieves tools to disarm) or spellcasters (Fly to just get over the trap)
Puzzles- This is mostly a party issue and Investigation is typically used to garner clues (at least per all of tasha's puzzles) again the PHB ranger has no advantages here over better suited classes. Detecting magic, mage hand, and various other options they do not get are generally better suited for dealing with these situations. Their out of combat abilities have no real impact here.
Social Discussions/Barter- Again no advantages for the PHB ranger to deal with this situation unless it is somehow related to their favored enemy on recalled information that could maybe help...and even then its about on par with INT based rolls. This might be the only one they at least get some help with but its niche as it has to be your favored enemy...which might not be too keen on dealing with you anyway.
Not getting lost- this literally boils down to a roll regardless of how you play it...you either get lost or you don't and I do not see an interesting way to draw this out.
Even in the scenarios you presented the ranger is not really set up to succeed in any of them with the PHB options.
Again I would ask: How do you meaningfully use their out of combat ribbon features in these scenarios? The idea of them doing well here is there but the actual execution is hardly present.
I think this is a play style hurdle for you, Optimus. You speak of a few rolls and such to resolve travel and overland exploration, but that can be the same thing for anything in the game depending on how it’s being played. Dungeon travel, social encounters, even combats, all COULD be boiled down to a few simple rolls to resolve. If folks put half as much effort into planning some interesting events and challenges during a trip as they do even a medium CR combat encounter we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
also given that the exploration pillar of the game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone at the table, not having the ranger be the key that automatically solves every encounter is also to some degree a good thing, as long as the ranger has some niche to work with.
and like, it cannot be that hard to make getting lost an exiting or meaningful experience, or at least doing so with correcting your path and finding your way back. Depending on context and narration, it might require cooperation or navigation obstacles. But then that requires going outside the framework set up by the official rules. And also Natural Explorer automatically making you immune to getting lost kind of ruins the fun a bit
Thats my question though that no one has been able to answer yet....
How do you make it meaningful? The options listed were not really something a ranger would be good at with the options given to them...which is why I think they are not the greatest.
I think the Tasha's options are much more meaningful because they apply to a wider variety of experiences. Swim and Climb speed makes the ranger able to navigate the world a lot easier than most and the expertise in a skill makes it so they can do survival and apply to a larger area of applications.
Even the exhaustion removal on a short rest makes so much more sense as the DMG suggests exhaustion for traversal through hostile environments.
They actually change your play experience in a meaningful way that allows you to use them in a wider sense....something the PHB options fail utterly to do.
That’s more than a fair statement. I’ll write up some thoughts and examples and post them in this thread soon (in a few days). I agree the core rules cause it to not be well understood/used.
I find that with the swingyness of the d20 Over half the game (below 10 or so) is not an auto win for rangers and even untrained parties can succeed. There is still a lot of tunnel vision going on. it just makes it more probable for rangers. many of the boons to rangers are just unique things allowing for extras other party members can't do. The remain alert ability is one. every party member has to decide what they are doing while traveling. Possibly Crafting, foraging, navigating, watching for danger, ect. everybody only gets 1 except the ranger. the problem is too many tables break this rule and allow every one to watch for free.
every class has some things that make portions of the game easier. Some don't want to deal with load/weight, some don't want to deal with resistance and immunity. classes having the ability to usually bypass things that are unfun for you makes the game better not worse.
travel is great for many of the under utilized parts of the game. it is also a "safe space" for the dm to allow the party to interact with things way beyond their level. Hallucinatory Terrain, control weather. running into other adventuring groups(just try it once have the party come across another tiny hut that has a group resting just before their own big adventure). run People in need of skills and tools the party may have selected at creation. poisons and disease. trade goods. random natural disasters. random unnatural disasters of the fantasy variety. have the party run into a character that needs random unused spells.(mending, restoration, detect spells, dispell magic for the mages that only take counter spell). how about timed deliveries for minor rewards.show that every game choice matters at some point in dnd.
few people have mentioned non combat encounter design and pacing. its good to have short solvable scenarios in-between longer ones. also understanding how said skills affect the rest of the game. delays could make other things more difficult. finding the right side quest might make the next section easier.
…. few people have mentioned non combat encounter design and pacing. its good to have short solvable scenarios in-between longer ones. also understanding how said skills affect the rest of the game. delays could make other things more difficult. finding the right side quest might make the next section easier.
Especially wilderness non combat encounters. Here are a few I have run into at one time or another:
1) someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed.
2 you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do? 3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing? 5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
these are just a few I’ve run into personally in real life, there are lots more ideas in novels like “The Walking Drum” or the books of “The first Mountainman” series.
…. few people have mentioned non combat encounter design and pacing. its good to have short solvable scenarios in-between longer ones. also understanding how said skills affect the rest of the game. delays could make other things more difficult. finding the right side quest might make the next section easier.
Especially wilderness non combat encounters. Here are a few I have run into at one time or another:
1) someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed.
2 you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do? 3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing? 5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
these are just a few I’ve run into personally in real life, there are lots more ideas in novels like “The Walking Drum” or the books of “The first Mountainman” series.
I appreciate you actually listing out real scenarios that you have experienced....but lets go through each one and see how the PHB Ranger actually would deal with these.
1. someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed
So this is likely an Animal Handling Check or perhaps a spell use of Speak with Animals to talk with the skunk. This is an interesting scenario but the only potential for the PHB Ranger's abilities here is and ADV on a nature check if they picked beast as a favored enemy....which is not a great choice but could happen. However, the Scout Rogue already has expertise in Nature! And the druid need not bother as they can just speak with animals and get the skunk to skedaddle. So even giving the ranger the most favorable chance here they are no more prepared to handle the situation than others....especially if they made the "wrong" choice with their Favored Enemy.
2. you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do?
This one is the one that is completely nullified by magic...ritual magic at that. Tiny Hut makes this a moot point as you never have to sleep in an area that isn't completely save and warm. But say you do not have this spell in the party...what about PHB ranger makes them any more capable to handle this scenario? Again you could get information about the creatures with a Nature check....but so can the others just as easy if not better than you with expertise, Enhance Ability, Guidance, etc.... in fact they are likely to be better than you at it.
3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
Tiny Hut.....but a survival check seems to be in order here to fashion a system using trees. Again you might (emphasize might) get ADV on this if you picked the "right" favored terrain. If not then you are no better at this check than others. At least Tasha's Ranger could have Expertise in Survival here to have a chance to be better than others. Overall I do not see an advantage other than a roll here if you are lucky enough to pick the "right" terrain.
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing?
Wizard casts firebolt to start a fire....no check required. Create Bonfire from one of the other classes that gets cantrips...which you don't have as a ranger. No debris to start on fire? Tiny Hut saves the day again. Also the ranger would only be able to get ADV on the survival check to get the fire started....once again the others have almost the same odds of getting the check or better if they are a high WIS class. Enhance ability has replaced you as the go to for anything at this point. Also an aside for this one.....how did you not plan to need fire in a desert at night? Major ranger fail for not planning for this ahead of time.....
5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
Polymorph into a giant bird and fly people over the lava flows. Tiny Hut as always. Once again the ranger will likely not have any kind of advantage here....it would boil down to a survival roll maybe? if so they are just as likely to succeed as the others....even less so if they did not pick Mountain as their terrain.
Overall it just shows that even in these situations there are far more effective solutions than what a ranger can come up with to solve the situation. Even at lower levels it does not take much for the Cleric, Druid, or Bard to be better than the ranger at a survival roll thanks to Enhance Ability and a decent WIS score.
First I would like to reiterate. Other classes being able to solve the problem is a good thing not a bad one. those same classes make a choice that causes them to loose out on other ones. This is about making interesting scenarios where traveling/exploration is fun.
Second beasts as a favored foe is literally the best default options for favored enemy. beasts are one of the few creatures you can guarantee interacting with and checks to be required. it will literally carry you to the point where you get your second choice (6th) and still be useful beyond. There will always be mount scenarios and poison to harvest.
The skunk is interesting because of this there are many ways to solve the problem not one. skill with animals, gust or wind spells, charm animal spells, calm emotions. even though there are many ways to solve the problem there are many parties that wont have a solution or will fail at their attempt. now the end result is they smell not a big deal but it could affect things like being detected or charisma checks.(things other classes have "auto solve" solutions for) making the game more interesting.
some keys to a good encounter are 1. reflecting on player choices and classes 2. situational solutions. 3. stakes(note stakes shouldn't always be high ones). each of the listed scenarios attempts to address those three areas. some do it better than others but they are things to mix up the game keeping it from being mundane.
First I would like to reiterate. Other classes being able to solve the problem is a good thing not a bad one. those same classes make a choice that causes them to loose out on other ones. This is about making interesting scenarios where traveling/exploration is fun.
Second beasts as a favored foe is literally the best default options for favored enemy. beasts are one of the few creatures you can guarantee interacting with and checks to be required. it will literally carry you to the point where you get your second choice (6th) and still be useful beyond. There will always be mount scenarios and poison to harvest.
The skunk is interesting because of this there are many ways to solve the problem not one. skill with animals, gust or wind spells, charm animal spells, calm emotions. even though there are many ways to solve the problem there are many parties that wont have a solution or will fail at their attempt. now the end result is they smell not a big deal but it could affect things like being detected or charisma checks.(things other classes have "auto solve" solutions for) making the game more interesting.
some keys to a good encounter are 1. reflecting on player choices and classes 2. situational solutions. 3. stakes(note stakes shouldn't always be high ones). each of the listed scenarios attempts to address those three areas. some do it better than others but they are things to mix up the game keeping it from being mundane.
And on a thread about Ranger being underpowered and their features weak for what they are supposed to be good at it is fair game to show how their abilities are weak compared to the other classes.
I love what Tasha's did for the ranger and made them a lot more generally applicable in the scenarios they are likely involved in from a thematic sense. I have 0 problems with ranger now with the Tasha's changes as I think they accomplished a lot with what they offer.
The PHB Ranger features were underwhelming and IMO bad design especially given the options that came into the game after the PHB was released (Enhance Ability, Scout Rogue, etc...)
It just got worse over time and I am glad they addressed it.
Optimus, I love that you love Tasha's options. That's great. Home run for both sides of the ranger community for WotC as far as that book is concerned.
As far as travel, overland travel, exploration, survival, and all of the other stuff that isn't "combat" or "social" encounters, I have some thoughts following some questions for you and everyone here.
1. Why do we play out dungeons, caverns, castles, or anything at all? Why not just skip to the big boss battle? Go right to the tough, well thought out, well balance, challenging battles, and skip all of the sneaking around, opening doors, searching fo traps, and all of the time consuming stuff that mostly magic and the rogue can just take care of while the rest of the party just sits around waiting for initiative to be called for? All of that just comes down to a die roll or two that one PC makes or is solved by a one spell or another. For me, the destination's importance to the game is highly dependent on the journey to get there. Both mechanically and narratively. Building character arcs, finding out secrets and clues, searching for shortcuts or items and information to assist the party, or flushing out an unknown storyline or evil plot. All of this is what makes this game this game for me. If combat is 90% of why someone plays the game then I suggest they look elsewhere as D&D has never been a very good combat game, 5E in particular is a pretty basic combat system at it's base level. There are WAY better tactical and strategic combat TTRPG games in the world if combat is what someone loves. Combat is a part of the game and is very fun, but best served hot of the grill of intrigue, mystery, plot, and character development.
2. The game is most familiar to the most people when played as traveling through dungeon-like environments with social and combat/hazard encounters scattered along the way. These are all separated by walls, doors, ceilings, and space and time. Could we not just skip all of that? Yes we can. Most don't. Why? Because it's how the game was/is played since it's conception? Maybe. I think someone, maybe even you, Optimus, mentioned structure before, and I think that nails it on the head. Combat has structure. Turns, rounds, actions, reactions, and everyone is involved. People handle traveling through a dungeon a little differently as there is less structured in game support for that in the rules, and even less for overland travel. So I think the best thing to do is to give structure to the party of the game that don't have it at all of as obviously. I add the equivalent of turns and rounds to social encounters and traveling (whether through a city/dungeon or overland/wilderness). This is important as it gives players something to sink their teeth into.
3. Adding structure through some kind of turn order is important as everyone knows that, not only will they defiantly have a chance to effect what's going on, but they will know WHEN they will have a chance to do so. Giving players rules to play with. Another thing that is important is to give the players something to work on or towards either individually or as a group. Combat has many little things going on, but the gaol is to "win", and that is most common by keeping your allies hit point's up while whittling your enemies hit point's down. A group goal with possible individual goals. The same has to be done for social and encounters during exploration/travel. Baulder's Gate: Decent into Avernus has a great little mechanic hidden away in the section of Fort Knucklebone regarding social encounters. I won't give it away here, but it involves a die, seen by everyone at the table, that represents the current "mood" of the NPC or group in a social situation. Let's take a d12. Lower numbers on the die are approaching a hostile mood of the NPC, while high numbers on the die are more friendly and helpful. In the middle is more or less indifferent in mood and manner. A social situation comes up. Let's say the party is trying to get information from the bar tender to find out clues for a place they need to get to but have zero idea where to start. The bar tender is trying to run a business, so they are at least not hostile. Let's start the number shown on the d12 on a 7. If the PCs can get that number to an 11 or 12 they can get some great and much needed information from the bar tender, but as that number approaches 1-3, the bar tender might clam up, kick them out, or even call the cops. All the PCs get a chance to interact with the situation, taking turn to do so. I like to think of a typical Law & Order scene where they are asking questions while someone is working. The DM sets a DC (I like to let the players know what the DC is, just like an enemy AC, as it gives them something to aim for and many classes and subclasses have abilities that help in situation like these) that each turn has a chance to effect by rolling above, rolling below, or effecting the next roll made in some way. No matter what each PC does on their turn, the d12 will either move up 1, down 1, or stay the same. (the 4E skill challenges can play a lot into this, although different) This adds structure to the social encounter. Purpose + Structure. That is what is needed for it to be a game. Just like combat. Otherwise it's just the player's listening to the DM talk and IS BORING.
Optimus, I love that you love Tasha's options. That's great. Home run for both sides of the ranger community for WotC as far as that book is concerned.
As far as travel, overland travel, exploration, survival, and all of the other stuff that isn't "combat" or "social" encounters, I have some thoughts following some questions for you and everyone here.
1. Why do we play out dungeons, caverns, castles, or anything at all? Why not just skip to the big boss battle? Go right to the tough, well thought out, well balance, challenging battles, and skip all of the sneaking around, opening doors, searching fo traps, and all of the time consuming stuff that mostly magic and the rogue can just take care of while the rest of the party just sits around waiting for initiative to be called for? All of that just comes down to a die roll or two that one PC makes or is solved by a one spell or another. For me, the destination's importance to the game is highly dependent on the journey to get there. Both mechanically and narratively. Building character arcs, finding out secrets and clues, searching for shortcuts or items and information to assist the party, or flushing out an unknown storyline or evil plot. All of this is what makes this game this game for me. If combat is 90% of why someone plays the game then I suggest they look elsewhere as D&D has never been a very good combat game, 5E in particular is a pretty basic combat system at it's base level. There are WAY better tactical and strategic combat TTRPG games in the world if combat is what someone loves. Combat is a part of the game and is very fun, but best served hot of the grill of intrigue, mystery, plot, and character development.
2. The game is most familiar to the most people when played as traveling through dungeon-like environments with social and combat/hazard encounters scattered along the way. These are all separated by walls, doors, ceilings, and space and time. Could we not just skip all of that? Yes we can. Most don't. Why? Because it's how the game was/is played since it's conception? Maybe. I think someone, maybe even you, Optimus, mentioned structure before, and I think that nails it on the head. Combat has structure. Turns, rounds, actions, reactions, and everyone is involved. People handle traveling through a dungeon a little differently as there is less structured in game support for that in the rules, and even less for overland travel. So I think the best thing to do is to give structure to the party of the game that don't have it at all of as obviously. I add the equivalent of turns and rounds to social encounters and traveling (whether through a city/dungeon or overland/wilderness). This is important as it gives players something to sink their teeth into.
3. Adding structure through some kind of turn order is important as everyone knows that, not only will they defiantly have a chance to effect what's going on, but they will know WHEN they will have a chance to do so. Giving players rules to play with. Another thing that is important is to give the players something to work on or towards either individually or as a group. Combat has many little things going on, but the gaol is to "win", and that is most common by keeping your allies hit point's up while whittling your enemies hit point's down. A group goal with possible individual goals. The same has to be done for social and encounters during exploration/travel. Baulder's Gate: Decent into Avernus has a great little mechanic hidden away in the section of Fort Knucklebone regarding social encounters. I won't give it away here, but it involves a die, seen by everyone at the table, that represents the current "mood" of the NPC or group in a social situation. Let's take a d12. Lower numbers on the die are approaching a hostile mood of the NPC, while high numbers on the die are more friendly and helpful. In the middle is more or less indifferent in mood and manner. A social situation comes up. Let's say the party is trying to get information from the bar tender to find out clues for a place they need to get to but have zero idea where to start. The bar tender is trying to run a business, so they are at least not hostile. Let's start the number shown on the d12 on a 7. If the PCs can get that number to an 11 or 12 they can get some great and much needed information from the bar tender, but as that number approaches 1-3, the bar tender might clam up, kick them out, or even call the cops. All the PCs get a chance to interact with the situation, taking turn to do so. I like to think of a typical Law & Order scene where they are asking questions while someone is working. The DM sets a DC (I like to let the players know what the DC is, just like an enemy AC, as it gives them something to aim for and many classes and subclasses have abilities that help in situation like these) that each turn has a chance to effect by rolling above, rolling below, or effecting the next roll made in some way. No matter what each PC does on their turn, the d12 will either move up 1, down 1, or stay the same. (the 4E skill challenges can play a lot into this, although different) This adds structure to the social encounter. Purpose + Structure. That is what is needed for it to be a game. Just like combat. Otherwise it's just the player's listening to the DM talk and IS BORING.
This is great and all....but how does the PHB ranger do any of this better thanks to their features? This is still my main point....none of what you mentioned here is affected by the terrible design of the PHB features.
Thats my point....Climbing over walls and swimming through rivers the Tasha's ranger can do better than the party thanks to their climbing speed/swim speed.
You feel that your choice of ranger impacts how you interact with the world here.
Still no one has had one example of how the PHB version actually makes you better at exploring the world in a meaningful way.
4. Travel is just the same. Purpose and structure is required. Without purpose and structure, travel, exploration, adventure, Aren't low level combat encounters boring and a waste of time? All of that time rolling initiative and going through the motions to a result that couldn't end any other way other than victory? Just like going through a dungeon, sewer, cave system, or whatever, all of that has to have purpose and structure. I tend to keep people in a bit of a turn order while traveling through a dungeon, otherwise the wizard and rogue are playing a game with the DM while everyone else watches. Now I play with facing, variant encumbrance, I track food and water, I track time, and allow two short rests per PC between each long rest, so that defiantly works in my favor for this play style. I also don't make group ability checks. In fact, when a group of people are making stealth checks I use the LOWEST roll for the entire group (imagin a group of ninjas and a mounted knight in plate mail sneaking through a dungeon).Also, not any one creature can be aware of all things in all directions at all times. The core books give basic vanilla rules to get people started, but they also talk about marching order and directional perception as well. Why is traveling in groups safer than traveling alone? More eyes, more ears, more muscle, more tasks accomplished in a given mount of time. Instead of taking individual turns in 6 second intervals, switch to 10 minute "exploration phases" that the group plays out as one. This not only makes tracking time easier, but deals with larger more abstract chunks of time that makes more sense from a activity narrative point of view. Give the players something to intact with for each phase. Get a marching order established, and ask players what they are doing during this phase. They can do one thing while walking. Perception in a direction (one direction, forward, backward, up!, etc.) investigating (walls, etc.), mapping, casting a spell, scouting ahead. All while moving along. Moving stealthily? That slows the group down or they have disadvantage on their rolls. Give each player a chance to say what their character is doing while each phase happens. Is someone investigating why trying to move quietly? Disadvantage. Is everyone moving stealthy? The loudest creature is going to make the noise that possible enemies might hear. This gives you a chance to use planned encounters (wandering or not) and random encounters. So this gets into time and how it is a resource and purpose. A table that is rolled on for random encounters is a classic after rolling a die to see if a random encounter shows up. It's in the DMG. I like to use home made cards, drawn one per exploration phase, that replace the roll for random encounter die and random encounter table. Get a deck of playing cards and some solid backed sleeves and make your own slips of paper to go in each one that you want to say something like "Hard CR Random Encounter" or "Deadly CR Random Encounter". This is fun because there is a finite amount of cards in the deck (I like to use 100 as the math is easier) and a card is drawn each exploration phase, so the more time the party takes the greater and greater chance there is of running into that beholder that is hovering around down here! With this home-brew method the players are literally fighting the environment via time simply passing by. Time is a commodity and of importance. You might only have 1 or 2 truly deadly encounters in a deck of 100 cards, but those encounters should be hard enough to be almost unbeatable, otherwise there is less of a threat. You can also make any magic e items, secrets, clues, or whatever, ONLY found with these random encounters, thereby encouraging ghte players to explore the dungeon beyond just getting to the boss. Maybe the boss is a wandering monster themself?!?! That's a cool idea! And it provides more purpose to this structure of travel.
5. I apply the same card system, turn order, and interest to overland travel so it to has propose and structure. The main differences are are the lack of ceilings, doors, and walls, the distances are greater, and the time chunks are longer. I use 4 hour journey "legs" now instead of 10 minute "exploration phases" or 6 second "rounds". I use the cards in the same way. Each card drawn is done so after each player states what their PC is doing for this leg. Each day has 6 legs (24 hours divided by 4 hours). This again helps with tracking time and resources. Two of the legs have to be spent resting, two can be be spent traveling (8 hours), and two are something else that isn't traveling as not to start getting levels of exhaustion. When I do this I lay the drawn cards out in a row in front of everyone one at a time. Every 6 cards drawn, at some point, the PCs have to each, drink water, and sleep. Using larger chunks of time makes traveling more dangerous too. If you are sleeping during leg 5 of the journey and the party is ambushed, you aren't wearing armor, and worst of all you did not sleep or rest for that entire leg so it does NOT count for either. This might seem harsh to a lot pf players, and is defiantly technically home brew, but given the lack of meaningful rules for travel and exploration in the game anything is worth trying. We also again get into the cards being drawn, one card for each 4 hour leg of the journey, and the ever increasing chance of something truly terrible happening to or coming upon the party. The more time the party takes, the greater chance they have of the fight of their lives. This makes times of great importance again, and that makes something like natural explorer very valuable indeed. The entire party is faster and moves more efficiently with a ranger in their favored terrain. Again, make something of value or necessity to the goal part of the exploration. Perhaps the item needed, person to be contacted, or enemy to slay is a wandering encounter that can only be found in the structure of the journey legs and deck of cards as it/they to are on the move. This adds great value to tracking, survival, nature, and other skills, social skills encounters for asking what others have seen, and spells like speak with animals and such. Stealth, speed, perception are all important as just because an encounter is drawn and happened upon, it doesn't mean it's automatically a fight (especially if the creature(s) are too powerful for the party to overcome). For this kind of thing, if a ranger has and uses the primeval awareness ability for a particular leg of the journey, and an encounter happens for that leg that is on the list of that ability, I basically use it as a "...I sense a disturbance in the force..." kind of mechanic and give the ranger advantage on whatever kind of paying attention check they are making at the time. If they are using that ability chances are they are keeping watch, in which case I would give them more of a 360 degree perception check. Also, in their favored terrain, rangers are the only class that can make perception check while doing another activity. All of this happens while you are playing your part of the game with the planned encounters, NPCs, and events going on.
See my posts for numbers 4 and 5. Rangers have the skills available to them to take, not all classes do. They have the ability to get advantage on many knowledge checks, expertise on mental checks, the ability to do two check at once, can travel light, can create food, can have the highest perception form the greatest distance of anyone in the party, can move the entire party safer and faster in their travels, and have spells on top of that that add and enhance to all of that.
…. few people have mentioned non combat encounter design and pacing. its good to have short solvable scenarios in-between longer ones. also understanding how said skills affect the rest of the game. delays could make other things more difficult. finding the right side quest might make the next section easier.
Especially wilderness non combat encounters. Here are a few I have run into at one time or another:
1) someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed.
2 you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do? 3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing? 5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
these are just a few I’ve run into personally in real life, there are lots more ideas in novels like “The Walking Drum” or the books of “The first Mountainman” series.
I appreciate you actually listing out real scenarios that you have experienced....but lets go through each one and see how the PHB Ranger actually would deal with these.
1. someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed
So this is likely an Animal Handling Check or perhaps a spell use of Speak with Animals to talk with the skunk. This is an interesting scenario but the only potential for the PHB Ranger's abilities here is and ADV on a nature check if they picked beast as a favored enemy....which is not a great choice but could happen. However, the Scout Rogue already has expertise in Nature! And the druid need not bother as they can just speak with animals and get the skunk to skedaddle. So even giving the ranger the most favorable chance here they are no more prepared to handle the situation than others....especially if they made the "wrong" choice with their Favored Enemy.
2. you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do?
This one is the one that is completely nullified by magic...ritual magic at that. Tiny Hut makes this a moot point as you never have to sleep in an area that isn't completely save and warm. But say you do not have this spell in the party...what about PHB ranger makes them any more capable to handle this scenario? Again you could get information about the creatures with a Nature check....but so can the others just as easy if not better than you with expertise, Enhance Ability, Guidance, etc.... in fact they are likely to be better than you at it.
3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
Tiny Hut.....but a survival check seems to be in order here to fashion a system using trees. Again you might (emphasize might) get ADV on this if you picked the "right" favored terrain. If not then you are no better at this check than others. At least Tasha's Ranger could have Expertise in Survival here to have a chance to be better than others. Overall I do not see an advantage other than a roll here if you are lucky enough to pick the "right" terrain.
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing?
Wizard casts firebolt to start a fire....no check required. Create Bonfire from one of the other classes that gets cantrips...which you don't have as a ranger. No debris to start on fire? Tiny Hut saves the day again. Also the ranger would only be able to get ADV on the survival check to get the fire started....once again the others have almost the same odds of getting the check or better if they are a high WIS class. Enhance ability has replaced you as the go to for anything at this point. Also an aside for this one.....how did you not plan to need fire in a desert at night? Major ranger fail for not planning for this ahead of time.....
5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
Polymorph into a giant bird and fly people over the lava flows. Tiny Hut as always. Once again the ranger will likely not have any kind of advantage here....it would boil down to a survival roll maybe? if so they are just as likely to succeed as the others....even less so if they did not pick Mountain as their terrain.
Overall it just shows that even in these situations there are far more effective solutions than what a ranger can come up with to solve the situation. Even at lower levels it does not take much for the Cleric, Druid, or Bard to be better than the ranger at a survival roll thanks to Enhance Ability and a decent WIS score.
You compare high level solutions to first level PHB ranger abilities You have not proven it is weaker or more poorly designed than other classes when it comes to exploration. You have solved most of your problems with a 7th level ability. by that time a ranger has already picked up a second "Informed" terrain choice. Your the simple solutions like cantrips you forget a lot of basic stuff. building a fire in a desert you need flammable objects that will actually burn long enough to heat the area affectively. How do you know which plants are water stores that wont burn well vs ones that don't need much water and will burn. did your other caster even know to light a fire when it was still warm or were they woken up in the night freezing and already in a bad state? did you even know about what supplies would be needed on the journey. (like fire wood as a priority over food). A ranger has a chance to solve the problem without resource use better than any other class and has a more all encompassing solution. tiny hut only does tiny hut stuff. The rangers "situational" skills are more varied and can help with way more solutions that just one thing. and this is a ribbon ability. they still have all their core features and subclass features. Knowledge of an area in its self is what makes a ranger better than other classes. Not to mention all the unique stuff that gets conveniently ignored.
For most of these responses you used advantage (favored enemy) instead of Favored terrain (functional expertise). Again many situations actually both apply. We all make mistakes but it shouldn't be a core part of the argument.
See my posts for numbers 4 and 5. Rangers have the skills available to them to take, not all classes do. They have the ability to get advantage on many knowledge checks, expertise on mental checks, the ability to do two check at once, can travel light, can create food, can have the highest perception form the greatest distance of anyone in the party, can move the entire party safer and faster in their travels, and have spells on top of that that add and enhance to all of that.
Several of these points I disagree with:
Advantage on Knowledge checks- Any class with access to Enhance Ability gets this is as well....and in ALL environments not just 1 or 2.
Expertise in Mental checks- Several classes get this and not just in selective terrain or selective enemies. Again nothing that puts them ahead of the other classes.
Two check at once- This is the ONLY one I agree with...but is generally not applicable unless you have a huge focus on this for a good chunk of the campaign...and again only in your favored terrain. So majority of the time it will not apply if you like to swap to different areas....which is part of exploration and naturally cool to see more than just one biome.
Create Food- any cleric or druid can create food for the party. Or anyone with access to Magic Imitate- Druid can get goodberry and its just straight up better than relying on a roll.
Highest Perception. No idea where you are getting this from...nothing in their kit gives them better perception? Arguably they are worse at this then several classes like chain lock that can have an perma-invisible scout that they can communicate with at infinite distance.
ALL this is just if they are in their favored terrain.....if not then its literally worthless and they gain nothing.
The design is horrendous for that reason alone but then adding in the overt overlap of other classes....man its not good to be a PHB ranger.
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Even then is likely boils down a few survival/stealth rolls....which granted you will be good at but ultimately is over in about 20-30 minutes tops.
If combat ensues or you find a place to actually move around and explore the other classes are generally better at it thanks to mobility, class features, and spells.
Like the idea of it is great....but execution comes down to a handful of rolls that you are likely to succeed then move on to the interesting part.
Execution comes down to a handful of rolls if that is all you boil it down to. You can turn sections like this into dungeon crawls very easily. And they don't have to just be combat after combat after combat. They can actually take a variety of skills or even a group effort to get through that aren't just over-ridden by a Ranger just like in a regular adventure.
There may be traps laid. there may be puzzles to solve. There may be things that you need to talk to and barter passage with. not Getting lost is nice. But that doesn't help when there is no obvious path or when multiple paths seem to lead the right way and you have to make a choice as to which one to take which your ignoring. These things happen in dungeon modules all the time and don't always resolve with just a simple dice roll. Even in ones that are combat heavy and these are things that can be done on such journeys. Again without changing the overall end goal of the mission the characters are on.
Traps- Investigation/Spells- Ranger does not have special help with this and can be better handled by Rogues (Expertise in Thieves tools to disarm) or spellcasters (Fly to just get over the trap)
Puzzles- This is mostly a party issue and Investigation is typically used to garner clues (at least per all of tasha's puzzles) again the PHB ranger has no advantages here over better suited classes. Detecting magic, mage hand, and various other options they do not get are generally better suited for dealing with these situations. Their out of combat abilities have no real impact here.
Social Discussions/Barter- Again no advantages for the PHB ranger to deal with this situation unless it is somehow related to their favored enemy on recalled information that could maybe help...and even then its about on par with INT based rolls. This might be the only one they at least get some help with but its niche as it has to be your favored enemy...which might not be too keen on dealing with you anyway.
Not getting lost- this literally boils down to a roll regardless of how you play it...you either get lost or you don't and I do not see an interesting way to draw this out.
Even in the scenarios you presented the ranger is not really set up to succeed in any of them with the PHB options.
Again I would ask: How do you meaningfully use their out of combat ribbon features in these scenarios? The idea of them doing well here is there but the actual execution is hardly present.
I think this is a play style hurdle for you, Optimus. You speak of a few rolls and such to resolve travel and overland exploration, but that can be the same thing for anything in the game depending on how it’s being played. Dungeon travel, social encounters, even combats, all COULD be boiled down to a few simple rolls to resolve. If folks put half as much effort into planning some interesting events and challenges during a trip as they do even a medium CR combat encounter we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
also given that the exploration pillar of the game is meant to be enjoyed by everyone at the table, not having the ranger be the key that automatically solves every encounter is also to some degree a good thing, as long as the ranger has some niche to work with.
and like, it cannot be that hard to make getting lost an exiting or meaningful experience, or at least doing so with correcting your path and finding your way back. Depending on context and narration, it might require cooperation or navigation obstacles. But then that requires going outside the framework set up by the official rules. And also Natural Explorer automatically making you immune to getting lost kind of ruins the fun a bit
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thats my question though that no one has been able to answer yet....
How do you make it meaningful? The options listed were not really something a ranger would be good at with the options given to them...which is why I think they are not the greatest.
I think the Tasha's options are much more meaningful because they apply to a wider variety of experiences. Swim and Climb speed makes the ranger able to navigate the world a lot easier than most and the expertise in a skill makes it so they can do survival and apply to a larger area of applications.
Even the exhaustion removal on a short rest makes so much more sense as the DMG suggests exhaustion for traversal through hostile environments.
They actually change your play experience in a meaningful way that allows you to use them in a wider sense....something the PHB options fail utterly to do.
Combat at least has a lot of dynamics that are variable by the creatures you use and what the environment gives you to work with.
Social talks may rely on rolls but can engage every member of the party for hours potentially if its a contentious topic that means something to your character.
Traps are the simplest thing mentioned and do rely on simple rolls to avoid/notice....but at least they appear universally and not just in select settings related to your chosen terrian.
Overall people say they can make it meaningful but fail to produce examples on how they do it.
That’s more than a fair statement. I’ll write up some thoughts and examples and post them in this thread soon (in a few days). I agree the core rules cause it to not be well understood/used.
I find that with the swingyness of the d20 Over half the game (below 10 or so) is not an auto win for rangers and even untrained parties can succeed. There is still a lot of tunnel vision going on. it just makes it more probable for rangers. many of the boons to rangers are just unique things allowing for extras other party members can't do. The remain alert ability is one. every party member has to decide what they are doing while traveling. Possibly Crafting, foraging, navigating, watching for danger, ect. everybody only gets 1 except the ranger. the problem is too many tables break this rule and allow every one to watch for free.
every class has some things that make portions of the game easier. Some don't want to deal with load/weight, some don't want to deal with resistance and immunity. classes having the ability to usually bypass things that are unfun for you makes the game better not worse.
travel is great for many of the under utilized parts of the game. it is also a "safe space" for the dm to allow the party to interact with things way beyond their level. Hallucinatory Terrain, control weather. running into other adventuring groups(just try it once have the party come across another tiny hut that has a group resting just before their own big adventure). run People in need of skills and tools the party may have selected at creation. poisons and disease. trade goods. random natural disasters. random unnatural disasters of the fantasy variety. have the party run into a character that needs random unused spells.(mending, restoration, detect spells, dispell magic for the mages that only take counter spell). how about timed deliveries for minor rewards.show that every game choice matters at some point in dnd.
few people have mentioned non combat encounter design and pacing. its good to have short solvable scenarios in-between longer ones. also understanding how said skills affect the rest of the game. delays could make other things more difficult. finding the right side quest might make the next section easier.
Especially wilderness non combat encounters. Here are a few I have run into at one time or another:
1) someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed.
2 you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do?
3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing?
5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
these are just a few I’ve run into personally in real life, there are lots more ideas in novels like “The Walking Drum” or the books of “The first Mountainman” series.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I appreciate you actually listing out real scenarios that you have experienced....but lets go through each one and see how the PHB Ranger actually would deal with these.
1. someone didn’t clean up around the camp well enough and just as your going to sleep you hear some scuffling in the camp. When yOu look out of your tent you find a skunk is exploring your camp looking for food - what do you do and how do you get rid of the skunk without being sprayed
So this is likely an Animal Handling Check or perhaps a spell use of Speak with Animals to talk with the skunk. This is an interesting scenario but the only potential for the PHB Ranger's abilities here is and ADV on a nature check if they picked beast as a favored enemy....which is not a great choice but could happen. However, the Scout Rogue already has expertise in Nature! And the druid need not bother as they can just speak with animals and get the skunk to skedaddle. So even giving the ranger the most favorable chance here they are no more prepared to handle the situation than others....especially if they made the "wrong" choice with their Favored Enemy.
2. you go to pitch your tents in a nice open soft grass area then realize it is the lowest spot around and a storm is brewing but there is some nice clear ground along a trail a few feet away and at least 10 inches higher so you pitch your tents there. In the middle of the night your awakened by the thundering of hooves all around you. when you look out you realize the trail is a game trail and a herd of elk are charging along it in panic and leaping over your tents. what do you do?
This one is the one that is completely nullified by magic...ritual magic at that. Tiny Hut makes this a moot point as you never have to sleep in an area that isn't completely save and warm. But say you do not have this spell in the party...what about PHB ranger makes them any more capable to handle this scenario? Again you could get information about the creatures with a Nature check....but so can the others just as easy if not better than you with expertise, Enhance Ability, Guidance, etc.... in fact they are likely to be better than you at it.
3) your in the mountains and there is no truly flat place to pitch tents. There is a nearly flat area but it clearly has a slope and a storm is brewing. How do you keep the insides of the tents and your gear dry?
Tiny Hut.....but a survival check seems to be in order here to fashion a system using trees. Again you might (emphasize might) get ADV on this if you picked the "right" favored terrain. If not then you are no better at this check than others. At least Tasha's Ranger could have Expertise in Survival here to have a chance to be better than others. Overall I do not see an advantage other than a roll here if you are lucky enough to pick the "right" terrain.
4. your the ranger and understand what happens at night in a desert ( it gets freaking cold) - how do you keep your party from freezing?
Wizard casts firebolt to start a fire....no check required. Create Bonfire from one of the other classes that gets cantrips...which you don't have as a ranger. No debris to start on fire? Tiny Hut saves the day again. Also the ranger would only be able to get ADV on the survival check to get the fire started....once again the others have almost the same odds of getting the check or better if they are a high WIS class. Enhance ability has replaced you as the go to for anything at this point. Also an aside for this one.....how did you not plan to need fire in a desert at night? Major ranger fail for not planning for this ahead of time.....
5 you have to camp out in a field of lava flows from an active volcano that is erupting and the lava is flowing down over cliffs and then spreading out over the ground. It’s too dangerous to keep moving over the flows in the dark. How do manage to keep everyone safe and allow them to get the rest they need?
Polymorph into a giant bird and fly people over the lava flows. Tiny Hut as always. Once again the ranger will likely not have any kind of advantage here....it would boil down to a survival roll maybe? if so they are just as likely to succeed as the others....even less so if they did not pick Mountain as their terrain.
Overall it just shows that even in these situations there are far more effective solutions than what a ranger can come up with to solve the situation. Even at lower levels it does not take much for the Cleric, Druid, or Bard to be better than the ranger at a survival roll thanks to Enhance Ability and a decent WIS score.
First I would like to reiterate. Other classes being able to solve the problem is a good thing not a bad one. those same classes make a choice that causes them to loose out on other ones. This is about making interesting scenarios where traveling/exploration is fun.
Second beasts as a favored foe is literally the best default options for favored enemy. beasts are one of the few creatures you can guarantee interacting with and checks to be required. it will literally carry you to the point where you get your second choice (6th) and still be useful beyond. There will always be mount scenarios and poison to harvest.
The skunk is interesting because of this there are many ways to solve the problem not one. skill with animals, gust or wind spells, charm animal spells, calm emotions. even though there are many ways to solve the problem there are many parties that wont have a solution or will fail at their attempt. now the end result is they smell not a big deal but it could affect things like being detected or charisma checks.(things other classes have "auto solve" solutions for) making the game more interesting.
some keys to a good encounter are 1. reflecting on player choices and classes 2. situational solutions. 3. stakes(note stakes shouldn't always be high ones). each of the listed scenarios attempts to address those three areas. some do it better than others but they are things to mix up the game keeping it from being mundane.
And on a thread about Ranger being underpowered and their features weak for what they are supposed to be good at it is fair game to show how their abilities are weak compared to the other classes.
I love what Tasha's did for the ranger and made them a lot more generally applicable in the scenarios they are likely involved in from a thematic sense. I have 0 problems with ranger now with the Tasha's changes as I think they accomplished a lot with what they offer.
The PHB Ranger features were underwhelming and IMO bad design especially given the options that came into the game after the PHB was released (Enhance Ability, Scout Rogue, etc...)
It just got worse over time and I am glad they addressed it.
Optimus, I love that you love Tasha's options. That's great. Home run for both sides of the ranger community for WotC as far as that book is concerned.
As far as travel, overland travel, exploration, survival, and all of the other stuff that isn't "combat" or "social" encounters, I have some thoughts following some questions for you and everyone here.
1. Why do we play out dungeons, caverns, castles, or anything at all? Why not just skip to the big boss battle? Go right to the tough, well thought out, well balance, challenging battles, and skip all of the sneaking around, opening doors, searching fo traps, and all of the time consuming stuff that mostly magic and the rogue can just take care of while the rest of the party just sits around waiting for initiative to be called for? All of that just comes down to a die roll or two that one PC makes or is solved by a one spell or another. For me, the destination's importance to the game is highly dependent on the journey to get there. Both mechanically and narratively. Building character arcs, finding out secrets and clues, searching for shortcuts or items and information to assist the party, or flushing out an unknown storyline or evil plot. All of this is what makes this game this game for me. If combat is 90% of why someone plays the game then I suggest they look elsewhere as D&D has never been a very good combat game, 5E in particular is a pretty basic combat system at it's base level. There are WAY better tactical and strategic combat TTRPG games in the world if combat is what someone loves. Combat is a part of the game and is very fun, but best served hot of the grill of intrigue, mystery, plot, and character development.
2. The game is most familiar to the most people when played as traveling through dungeon-like environments with social and combat/hazard encounters scattered along the way. These are all separated by walls, doors, ceilings, and space and time. Could we not just skip all of that? Yes we can. Most don't. Why? Because it's how the game was/is played since it's conception? Maybe. I think someone, maybe even you, Optimus, mentioned structure before, and I think that nails it on the head. Combat has structure. Turns, rounds, actions, reactions, and everyone is involved. People handle traveling through a dungeon a little differently as there is less structured in game support for that in the rules, and even less for overland travel. So I think the best thing to do is to give structure to the party of the game that don't have it at all of as obviously. I add the equivalent of turns and rounds to social encounters and traveling (whether through a city/dungeon or overland/wilderness). This is important as it gives players something to sink their teeth into.
3. Adding structure through some kind of turn order is important as everyone knows that, not only will they defiantly have a chance to effect what's going on, but they will know WHEN they will have a chance to do so. Giving players rules to play with. Another thing that is important is to give the players something to work on or towards either individually or as a group. Combat has many little things going on, but the gaol is to "win", and that is most common by keeping your allies hit point's up while whittling your enemies hit point's down. A group goal with possible individual goals. The same has to be done for social and encounters during exploration/travel. Baulder's Gate: Decent into Avernus has a great little mechanic hidden away in the section of Fort Knucklebone regarding social encounters. I won't give it away here, but it involves a die, seen by everyone at the table, that represents the current "mood" of the NPC or group in a social situation. Let's take a d12. Lower numbers on the die are approaching a hostile mood of the NPC, while high numbers on the die are more friendly and helpful. In the middle is more or less indifferent in mood and manner. A social situation comes up. Let's say the party is trying to get information from the bar tender to find out clues for a place they need to get to but have zero idea where to start. The bar tender is trying to run a business, so they are at least not hostile. Let's start the number shown on the d12 on a 7. If the PCs can get that number to an 11 or 12 they can get some great and much needed information from the bar tender, but as that number approaches 1-3, the bar tender might clam up, kick them out, or even call the cops. All the PCs get a chance to interact with the situation, taking turn to do so. I like to think of a typical Law & Order scene where they are asking questions while someone is working. The DM sets a DC (I like to let the players know what the DC is, just like an enemy AC, as it gives them something to aim for and many classes and subclasses have abilities that help in situation like these) that each turn has a chance to effect by rolling above, rolling below, or effecting the next roll made in some way. No matter what each PC does on their turn, the d12 will either move up 1, down 1, or stay the same. (the 4E skill challenges can play a lot into this, although different) This adds structure to the social encounter. Purpose + Structure. That is what is needed for it to be a game. Just like combat. Otherwise it's just the player's listening to the DM talk and IS BORING.
This is great and all....but how does the PHB ranger do any of this better thanks to their features? This is still my main point....none of what you mentioned here is affected by the terrible design of the PHB features.
Thats my point....Climbing over walls and swimming through rivers the Tasha's ranger can do better than the party thanks to their climbing speed/swim speed.
You feel that your choice of ranger impacts how you interact with the world here.
Still no one has had one example of how the PHB version actually makes you better at exploring the world in a meaningful way.
4. Travel is just the same. Purpose and structure is required. Without purpose and structure, travel, exploration, adventure, Aren't low level combat encounters boring and a waste of time? All of that time rolling initiative and going through the motions to a result that couldn't end any other way other than victory? Just like going through a dungeon, sewer, cave system, or whatever, all of that has to have purpose and structure. I tend to keep people in a bit of a turn order while traveling through a dungeon, otherwise the wizard and rogue are playing a game with the DM while everyone else watches. Now I play with facing, variant encumbrance, I track food and water, I track time, and allow two short rests per PC between each long rest, so that defiantly works in my favor for this play style. I also don't make group ability checks. In fact, when a group of people are making stealth checks I use the LOWEST roll for the entire group (imagin a group of ninjas and a mounted knight in plate mail sneaking through a dungeon).Also, not any one creature can be aware of all things in all directions at all times. The core books give basic vanilla rules to get people started, but they also talk about marching order and directional perception as well. Why is traveling in groups safer than traveling alone? More eyes, more ears, more muscle, more tasks accomplished in a given mount of time. Instead of taking individual turns in 6 second intervals, switch to 10 minute "exploration phases" that the group plays out as one. This not only makes tracking time easier, but deals with larger more abstract chunks of time that makes more sense from a activity narrative point of view. Give the players something to intact with for each phase. Get a marching order established, and ask players what they are doing during this phase. They can do one thing while walking. Perception in a direction (one direction, forward, backward, up!, etc.) investigating (walls, etc.), mapping, casting a spell, scouting ahead. All while moving along. Moving stealthily? That slows the group down or they have disadvantage on their rolls. Give each player a chance to say what their character is doing while each phase happens. Is someone investigating why trying to move quietly? Disadvantage. Is everyone moving stealthy? The loudest creature is going to make the noise that possible enemies might hear. This gives you a chance to use planned encounters (wandering or not) and random encounters. So this gets into time and how it is a resource and purpose. A table that is rolled on for random encounters is a classic after rolling a die to see if a random encounter shows up. It's in the DMG. I like to use home made cards, drawn one per exploration phase, that replace the roll for random encounter die and random encounter table. Get a deck of playing cards and some solid backed sleeves and make your own slips of paper to go in each one that you want to say something like "Hard CR Random Encounter" or "Deadly CR Random Encounter". This is fun because there is a finite amount of cards in the deck (I like to use 100 as the math is easier) and a card is drawn each exploration phase, so the more time the party takes the greater and greater chance there is of running into that beholder that is hovering around down here! With this home-brew method the players are literally fighting the environment via time simply passing by. Time is a commodity and of importance. You might only have 1 or 2 truly deadly encounters in a deck of 100 cards, but those encounters should be hard enough to be almost unbeatable, otherwise there is less of a threat. You can also make any magic e items, secrets, clues, or whatever, ONLY found with these random encounters, thereby encouraging ghte players to explore the dungeon beyond just getting to the boss. Maybe the boss is a wandering monster themself?!?! That's a cool idea! And it provides more purpose to this structure of travel.
5. I apply the same card system, turn order, and interest to overland travel so it to has propose and structure. The main differences are are the lack of ceilings, doors, and walls, the distances are greater, and the time chunks are longer. I use 4 hour journey "legs" now instead of 10 minute "exploration phases" or 6 second "rounds". I use the cards in the same way. Each card drawn is done so after each player states what their PC is doing for this leg. Each day has 6 legs (24 hours divided by 4 hours). This again helps with tracking time and resources. Two of the legs have to be spent resting, two can be be spent traveling (8 hours), and two are something else that isn't traveling as not to start getting levels of exhaustion. When I do this I lay the drawn cards out in a row in front of everyone one at a time. Every 6 cards drawn, at some point, the PCs have to each, drink water, and sleep. Using larger chunks of time makes traveling more dangerous too. If you are sleeping during leg 5 of the journey and the party is ambushed, you aren't wearing armor, and worst of all you did not sleep or rest for that entire leg so it does NOT count for either. This might seem harsh to a lot pf players, and is defiantly technically home brew, but given the lack of meaningful rules for travel and exploration in the game anything is worth trying. We also again get into the cards being drawn, one card for each 4 hour leg of the journey, and the ever increasing chance of something truly terrible happening to or coming upon the party. The more time the party takes, the greater chance they have of the fight of their lives. This makes times of great importance again, and that makes something like natural explorer very valuable indeed. The entire party is faster and moves more efficiently with a ranger in their favored terrain. Again, make something of value or necessity to the goal part of the exploration. Perhaps the item needed, person to be contacted, or enemy to slay is a wandering encounter that can only be found in the structure of the journey legs and deck of cards as it/they to are on the move. This adds great value to tracking, survival, nature, and other skills, social skills encounters for asking what others have seen, and spells like speak with animals and such. Stealth, speed, perception are all important as just because an encounter is drawn and happened upon, it doesn't mean it's automatically a fight (especially if the creature(s) are too powerful for the party to overcome). For this kind of thing, if a ranger has and uses the primeval awareness ability for a particular leg of the journey, and an encounter happens for that leg that is on the list of that ability, I basically use it as a "...I sense a disturbance in the force..." kind of mechanic and give the ranger advantage on whatever kind of paying attention check they are making at the time. If they are using that ability chances are they are keeping watch, in which case I would give them more of a 360 degree perception check. Also, in their favored terrain, rangers are the only class that can make perception check while doing another activity. All of this happens while you are playing your part of the game with the planned encounters, NPCs, and events going on.
Purpose and structure.
See my posts for numbers 4 and 5. Rangers have the skills available to them to take, not all classes do. They have the ability to get advantage on many knowledge checks, expertise on mental checks, the ability to do two check at once, can travel light, can create food, can have the highest perception form the greatest distance of anyone in the party, can move the entire party safer and faster in their travels, and have spells on top of that that add and enhance to all of that.
You compare high level solutions to first level PHB ranger abilities You have not proven it is weaker or more poorly designed than other classes when it comes to exploration. You have solved most of your problems with a 7th level ability. by that time a ranger has already picked up a second "Informed" terrain choice. Your the simple solutions like cantrips you forget a lot of basic stuff. building a fire in a desert you need flammable objects that will actually burn long enough to heat the area affectively. How do you know which plants are water stores that wont burn well vs ones that don't need much water and will burn. did your other caster even know to light a fire when it was still warm or were they woken up in the night freezing and already in a bad state? did you even know about what supplies would be needed on the journey. (like fire wood as a priority over food). A ranger has a chance to solve the problem without resource use better than any other class and has a more all encompassing solution. tiny hut only does tiny hut stuff. The rangers "situational" skills are more varied and can help with way more solutions that just one thing. and this is a ribbon ability. they still have all their core features and subclass features. Knowledge of an area in its self is what makes a ranger better than other classes. Not to mention all the unique stuff that gets conveniently ignored.
For most of these responses you used advantage (favored enemy) instead of Favored terrain (functional expertise). Again many situations actually both apply. We all make mistakes but it shouldn't be a core part of the argument.
Several of these points I disagree with:
Advantage on Knowledge checks- Any class with access to Enhance Ability gets this is as well....and in ALL environments not just 1 or 2.
Expertise in Mental checks- Several classes get this and not just in selective terrain or selective enemies. Again nothing that puts them ahead of the other classes.
Two check at once- This is the ONLY one I agree with...but is generally not applicable unless you have a huge focus on this for a good chunk of the campaign...and again only in your favored terrain. So majority of the time it will not apply if you like to swap to different areas....which is part of exploration and naturally cool to see more than just one biome.
Create Food- any cleric or druid can create food for the party. Or anyone with access to Magic Imitate- Druid can get goodberry and its just straight up better than relying on a roll.
Highest Perception. No idea where you are getting this from...nothing in their kit gives them better perception? Arguably they are worse at this then several classes like chain lock that can have an perma-invisible scout that they can communicate with at infinite distance.
ALL this is just if they are in their favored terrain.....if not then its literally worthless and they gain nothing.
The design is horrendous for that reason alone but then adding in the overt overlap of other classes....man its not good to be a PHB ranger.