Just took a real look at the scout rogue and now I’m annoyed with WOtC. It does do a nerf job on at least one side of the ranger by outright giving the rogue nature and survival skills (at L3). Some one was trying to create a ranger from a rogue and got away with it it looks like. I’m not really worried about the mage comparisons or Druid comparisons. If your mage really wants to waste 11 minutes each day making a cramped shelter for the party while leaving any horses or pack animals outside fine. Druids can do a lot of the scouting like a ranger but they aren’t as good in a fight except maybe at L1 when everyone is pretty much on par. Yes they can wildshape but the beasts are typically worse at combat than the Druid as they are 1/4 to 1/3 the CR rating of the Druid. Wildshape (IMHO) is meant for scouting not combat. Druids aren’t meant to be front line fighters the way some clerics, many rangers and all fighters are. Yes the scout ranger was purpose built to scout in the wilds (WHY when you already have the ranger) and yes it gets the sneak attack (twice - once on each of 2 different foes above L17) but it doesn’t get the armor or ranged abilities the ranger might have nor does it have the HP the ranger should have. Following the creation of the scout rogue maybe yes the ranger needs a revamp or maybe they need to pull the scout rogue.
anyway, I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m tired of this back and forth about how bad the ranger is or isn’t. I like the ranger but I’ll admit it isn’t perfect so look for a new thread - how to improve the ranger? No *****ing about how bad it is just ideas about how to make it better please!
I partially agree. someone in this thread has been actively spreading mis-information and has chased away most of the good discussion. At some point each individual needs to look at what post break rules such as Repeat posts, harassments, deliberate mis-information, trolling, and intentional debate necromancy. the report button is there for a reason.
It's not "misinformation" it's an opinion that I have.
I feel the PHB ranger features aren't congruent with a normal 5e experience. Others have shared their opinion as well.
We disagree... And that's fine.
Then answer the question about advantage and favored terrain stacking? there are countless times when you have actively switched expertise and advantage to manipulate the data to "prove" a point.
I don't recall this but either or it makes little difference overall.
Expertise from recalling information:
"When you make an Intelligence or Wisdom check related to your favored terrain, your proficiency bonus is doubled if you are using a skill that you’re proficient in."
So you still need to be prof in the skill to infer the benefit which may not apply where as the Enhance Ability gives you advantage to all regardless of prof or what terrain you are trying to recall information on.
Based on this it's still very underwhelming IMO.
you did not answer the question how is using a spell slot to "enhance ability" better than a ranger with expertise and still allowed to get advantage from another source.
not only that you justify your mis-information as "Makes little difference"
It does in my opinion as it's information recall.
You could just cast the spell, remember the information and then still have plenty of time to use the spell to do what you want.
Perception is based on wisdom so maybe you scout a bit or roll a survival check to start tracking.
You get value out the slot so it's worth it IMO.
Especially since this could be a terrain that the ranger has no clue about... Which is likely if you only know one biome.
getting value is not the same as better. you have still attempted to avoid the question.
also because you mentioned recalling. granting advantage has a maximum potential. Mathematically and practically. magmatically it still means you cant go over a certain value. expertise does however. there are also impossible checks because having enhanced recall(advantage ) will never give you the information you don't already know. the only way in game to show that you mechanically know something is favored terrain or favored enemy.
I have said why I think it's better.... You get more then just one terrains worth of information out of the spell and due to that versatility it's better.
Due to the wildly chaotic nature of DnD you could be recalling information on a beholder one minute and the stars in the artic sky the next.
Having a spell that gives you advantage on any of those things with no commitment to just one biome or one enemy type is just better to me.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
It's based on playstyle and DM mentality. Maybe the magic gives you information from the weave or from your god... That's up to the DM to decide in the moment or preferably at session 0 how they will run such checks.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is. the spell has a time limit and is tied to one base stat and uses a resource. all's spells have limited scope. all spells can be tricked or dispelled. or become incompatible due to adventuring rules and mechanics.
a ranger however can use it on wisdom or intelligence. a ranger can use it in conjunction with said spell. a ranger has infinite duration. a ranger has unique ribbon effects. its decent and compares to 4th level spells(by your own admission) and we are still talking about one of the lowest powered abilities on the ranger table. because the ranger still has other things to fall back on to solve said problem. they also have spells and equipment.
Might also be that the group is actually exploring a new area and wants to check every couple hours to ensure they are on the right track. Also I don't think the EA spell helps them travel in the area, so that bit is missing. Essentially Rangers do what they are supposed to do, as a class. Nit picking single, individual things and saying class X can to that too with a spell, or item, or feat, is a truly weak argument. Primarily because then next item on the Rangers list, you get to point out that Class Y can do that with BLAH. So you are now using 2 classes, spells or feats, to accomplish what the one would do.
I think the core is, Rangers are underpowered in your mind and thus, you won't use them and likely discourage others who want to. That's fine (more or less) but it's not factual, so the debate here is little more than opinions back and forth, with each able to cite situations and circumstances to support their opinion. Rangers are as good as any other class when played properly.
It's not factual either way.... It's based on opinions and play style so nobody is "Right"
You moved really quick from, the ranger abilities from the PHB are terrible, to, it’s all opinions and personal taste.
NOT stating your opinion as a fact would help a LOT.
Might also be that the group is actually exploring a new area and wants to check every couple hours to ensure they are on the right track. Also I don't think the EA spell helps them travel in the area, so that bit is missing. Essentially Rangers do what they are supposed to do, as a class. Nit picking single, individual things and saying class X can to that too with a spell, or item, or feat, is a truly weak argument. Primarily because then next item on the Rangers list, you get to point out that Class Y can do that with BLAH. So you are now using 2 classes, spells or feats, to accomplish what the one would do.
I think the core is, Rangers are underpowered in your mind and thus, you won't use them and likely discourage others who want to. That's fine (more or less) but it's not factual, so the debate here is little more than opinions back and forth, with each able to cite situations and circumstances to support their opinion. Rangers are as good as any other class when played properly.
It's not factual either way.... It's based on opinions and play style so nobody is "Right"
You moved really quick from, the ranger abilities from the PHB are terrible, to, it’s all opinions and personal taste.
NOT stating your opinion as a fact would help a LOT.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is.
It is tho as is all checks and their resolution. DM decides what information they get.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is.
It is tho as is all checks and their resolution. DM decides what information they get.
again we are playing by 5e rules. The specific ranger class rules override the general ones of dm preview. try again.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is.
It is tho as is all checks and their resolution. DM decides what information they get.
again we are playing by 5e rules. The specific ranger class rules override the general ones of dm preview. try again.
No need.
It's in the basic rules... It's a success but what information you gather is completely DM dependant. They may feel you get some useful information but not all.
The only information you get for sure is what they state in the ability which is not what we were discussing.
We were discussing the Wisdom and Intelligence checks for your biome which have no such guarantee.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is.
It is tho as is all checks and their resolution. DM decides what information they get.
again we are playing by 5e rules. The specific ranger class rules override the general ones of dm preview. try again.
No need.
It's in the basic rules... It's a success but what information you gather is completely DM dependant. They may feel you get some useful information but not all.
The only information you get for sure is what they state in the ability which is not what we were discussing.
We were discussing the Wisdom and Intelligence checks for your biome which have no such guarantee.
if you honestly believed that you wouldn't have tried using enhance ability over the ranger ones because it suffers that same problem to a worse extent. Enhance ability provides no guarantee checks but a ranger does. showing you are arguing preference and opinion not mechanics.
Poison harvesting
pelt harvesting
plant harvesting or identifying.
recognizing the threat of false appearance creatures (a ranger will know exactly what is mimicked even if he cannot )
gathering attack information
more
are all deniable by a dm because you don't Know them. You cannot remember what you don't know. enhance ability will never change that. but a ranger does know.
You cannot remember something you don't know. A ranger mechanically knows his terrain. a ranger mechanically knows a creature type. You will never reach a 30 with enhance ability(without adding a second feature) but you can with a ranger end of story.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is.
It is tho as is all checks and their resolution. DM decides what information they get.
again we are playing by 5e rules. The specific ranger class rules override the general ones of dm preview. try again.
No need.
It's in the basic rules... It's a success but what information you gather is completely DM dependant. They may feel you get some useful information but not all.
The only information you get for sure is what they state in the ability which is not what we were discussing.
We were discussing the Wisdom and Intelligence checks for your biome which have no such guarantee.
if you honestly believed that you wouldn't have tried using enhance ability over the ranger ones because it suffers that same problem to a worse extent. Enhance ability provides no guarantee checks but a ranger does. showing you are arguing preference and opinion not mechanics.
Poison harvesting
pelt harvesting
plant harvesting or identifying.
recognizing the threat of false appearance creatures (a ranger will know exactly what is mimicked even if he cannot )
gathering attack information
more
are all deniable by a dm because you don't Know them. You cannot remember what you don't know. enhance ability will never change that. but a ranger does know.
You cannot remember something you don't know. A ranger mechanically knows his terrain. a ranger mechanically knows a creature type. You will never reach a 30 with enhance ability(without adding a second feature) but you can with a ranger end of story.
Harvesting is overall is not really very mechanically supported and as of now is generally not very helpful so that part while flavorful won't do a ton.
They know their terrain but that still doesn't mean they will beat the DC to do the task at hand. It's still a check and chance for failure.
They are at about the same odds in their terrain as those who use spells mentioned.
Unless there is no check.... In which case we go back to the problem of handwaving problems which becomes boring.
when people complain about Being in your favored terrain.
they ignore tiers of play
Levels 1-4 Local heroes- 1 biome is expected
Levels 5-10 Masters of the realm. a realm will mostly be 2-5 biomes. meaning a ranger will still have terrain advantage 50-30% of the time.
the percent only gets better as levels go up and I haven't even tried to included out of terrain creative uses or favored enemies.
because favored enemies are a different category you can have one, or both the amount of times you can functionally use FT or FE goes up significantly.
You only get your second biome at 6th level so you are facing 3 more biomes you are less than many. By the time you hit 10th chances are you are winding down/done with the campaign.
So you spend most of your time only valuable 2/5 of the time while the rest of the classes are 5/5.
I'm sorry you are wrong or lying when you say "the rest of the classes are 5/5."
do paladins and clerics only fight undead? do bards ever use counter charm? Do wizards have every spell land an effect?
Come back when you want to talk 5e not whatever game your playing.
It's 5/5 because Enhance Ability gives you ADV on the checks regardless of biome.
So yes it's application is literally anywhere where the ranger is limited.
Requires concentration and only lasts for an hour. Worthless during overland travel snd wilderness exploration. Just as the guidance cantrip is.
In fact, you could use it to do what a rogue in a dungeon would do, like find traps and secret doors, but never on long journey or exploration treks.
You are saying literally every hour of every trip is dangerous and requires checks? I don't think so....
No. Your looking at it wrong. What he's saying is that Every check covers a long period of time of active skill usage. Much longer than the spell would actually last. The truth is that checks to track and travel can be any period between 10 minutes and 4 hours depending on the needs and the decision of the DM of what is appropriate for that particular usage. It's not that you need 50 checks to cover that 4 hour period. It's that that one 4 hour period that the check covers lasts longer than the spell would last to give them that advantage.
And that's really something that is often over looked with skills and people trying to abuse things like the Guidance Cantrip and spells like Enhance Ability. They don't give any concept of how long something might actually take. They just assume only the immediate second they make the check actually matters and everything else is instantaneous in some fashion.
when people complain about Being in your favored terrain.
they ignore tiers of play
Levels 1-4 Local heroes- 1 biome is expected
Levels 5-10 Masters of the realm. a realm will mostly be 2-5 biomes. meaning a ranger will still have terrain advantage 50-30% of the time.
the percent only gets better as levels go up and I haven't even tried to included out of terrain creative uses or favored enemies.
because favored enemies are a different category you can have one, or both the amount of times you can functionally use FT or FE goes up significantly.
You only get your second biome at 6th level so you are facing 3 more biomes you are less than many. By the time you hit 10th chances are you are winding down/done with the campaign.
So you spend most of your time only valuable 2/5 of the time while the rest of the classes are 5/5.
I'm sorry you are wrong or lying when you say "the rest of the classes are 5/5."
do paladins and clerics only fight undead? do bards ever use counter charm? Do wizards have every spell land an effect?
Come back when you want to talk 5e not whatever game your playing.
It's 5/5 because Enhance Ability gives you ADV on the checks regardless of biome.
So yes it's application is literally anywhere where the ranger is limited.
Requires concentration and only lasts for an hour. Worthless during overland travel snd wilderness exploration. Just as the guidance cantrip is.
In fact, you could use it to do what a rogue in a dungeon would do, like find traps and secret doors, but never on long journey or exploration treks.
You are saying literally every hour of every trip is dangerous and requires checks? I don't think so....
No. Your looking at it wrong. What he's saying is that Every check covers a long period of time of active skill usage. Much longer than the spell would actually last. The truth is that checks to track and travel can be any period between 10 minutes and 4 hours depending on the needs and the decision of the DM of what is appropriate for that particular usage. It's not that you need 50 checks to cover that 4 hour period. It's that that one 4 hour period that the check covers lasts longer than the spell would last to give them that advantage.
And that's really something that is often over looked with skills and people trying to abuse things like the Guidance Cantrip and spells like Enhance Ability. They don't give any concept of how long something might actually take. They just assume only the immediate second they make the check actually matters and everything else is instantaneous in some fashion.
Overall multiple checks will result in more failures was my point. Making anyone perform multiple checks for time based skills in my opinion is not the best option.
Even the adventure modules use a single survival check to ensure you are going the right direction per day.
I understand the premise and if you want to rule this way it's fine but I don't agree myself.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is.
It is tho as is all checks and their resolution. DM decides what information they get.
again we are playing by 5e rules. The specific ranger class rules override the general ones of dm preview. try again.
No need.
It's in the basic rules... It's a success but what information you gather is completely DM dependant. They may feel you get some useful information but not all.
The only information you get for sure is what they state in the ability which is not what we were discussing.
We were discussing the Wisdom and Intelligence checks for your biome which have no such guarantee.
if you honestly believed that you wouldn't have tried using enhance ability over the ranger ones because it suffers that same problem to a worse extent. Enhance ability provides no guarantee checks but a ranger does. showing you are arguing preference and opinion not mechanics.
Poison harvesting
pelt harvesting
plant harvesting or identifying.
recognizing the threat of false appearance creatures (a ranger will know exactly what is mimicked even if he cannot )
gathering attack information
more
are all deniable by a dm because you don't Know them. You cannot remember what you don't know. enhance ability will never change that. but a ranger does know.
You cannot remember something you don't know. A ranger mechanically knows his terrain. a ranger mechanically knows a creature type. You will never reach a 30 with enhance ability(without adding a second feature) but you can with a ranger end of story.
Harvesting is overall is not really very mechanically supported and as of now is generally not very helpful so that part while flavorful won't do a ton.
They know their terrain but that still doesn't mean they will beat the DC to do the task at hand. It's still a check and chance for failure.
They are at about the same odds in their terrain as those who use spells mentioned.
Unless there is no check.... In which case we go back to the problem of handwaving problems which becomes boring.
Based on this I felt the features need a change.
but your two main arguments contradict this.
1. enhance ability suffers the same problem
2. the argument that auto success is no fun (see several pages back The quote tool is to hard to use.)
I get it I really do but if your frustrated go back to the actual game. but just because you don't like something doesn't mean its faulty. You are clearly smart enough to see the advanced connections between things in 5e but are missing out because of something else bothering you. so understanding your own playstyle and what you can work with is better than trying to make drastic alterations with rippling effects. do full research and put thought into it snap dm calls/debates are most of the problem not the phb ranger.
Play a scout and you might get some of the feel. Play a druid you might get some of the feel. Play a Tasha's ranger. They are all good as part of adventuring parties.
I started out rpgs hating tanking. it just didn't make sense to me. I would always dump con and go for a no hit(high ac) approach. but then I needed to play one because of party composition. so Instead of asking for changes or calling it stupid, I did real research. when I did I learned the fun. I learned how my hot take was limiting my game. I learned to be a better player. (I still don't want to play a paladin though. its just not for me )
Honestly it's mostly that it's such a forced thing to make the ranger work in a way that makes them feel unique.
I've struggled with it as a player and a DM.
I recently started a campaign with a ranger who opted for the old PHB version. I even picked up an adventure that is marketed as exploration heavy (Tome of Annihilation).
It literally boils down to survival checks.... Like I'm not exaggerating when I say this.
I've read the scenarios that people have stated and still see no real benefit to the ranger unless I want to spend several hours a session doing exploration checks just to get them a time to shine... Time that the others are generally not taking part in.
The player just this week reached out to me to swap.
It's very fresh in my mind the use of the features and how the books suggest you use them it's just ultimately underwhelming.
Harvesting is overall is not really very mechanically supported and as of now is generally not very helpful so that part while flavorful won't do a ton.
This is actually not true at all. Poison harvesting has the ability to break the damage potential out of the water. allowing low level parties to take on things way beyond the party appropriate CR.
will it work on every enemy ? No. but it can be saved and there are a lot of enemies that have poison abilities. per DMG ch8 any Poisonous creature can be harvested. some of them have ridiculous prices that could be traded for holywater, acid, fire vials or even possibly more magic items
Note: shapeshifts, magical summoned creatures and creatures with poison weapons will probably not be allowed as they are not really poisonous creatures.
Even if you can, assume only one collection attempt per body. saving it up and allowing the whole party to go nova is amazing . every weapon attack in the first round can have poison. You will destroy beholders, vampire lords, dragons, giants, mind flayers and more.
the key is planning and timing.
And the class that has boons to harvest and can recall what is immune............... Ranger.
Honestly it's mostly that it's such a forced thing to make the ranger work in a way that makes them feel unique.
I've struggled with it as a player and a DM.
I recently started a campaign with a ranger who opted for the old PHB version. I even picked up an adventure that is marketed as exploration heavy (Tome of Annihilation).
It literally boils down to survival checks.... Like I'm not exaggerating when I say this.
I've read the scenarios that people have stated and still see no real benefit to the ranger unless I want to spend several hours a session doing exploration checks just to get them a time to shine... Time that the others are generally not taking part in.
The player just this week reached out to me to swap.
It's very fresh in my mind the use of the features and how the books suggest you use them it's just ultimately underwhelming.
some times the module is just a framework and details need to be filled in or added because its skill uses are implied not called out. wizards staff have stated they expect changes to be made to their books for each unique table.
sometimes a player just has a hard time may not be the ranger classes fault. Did you offer Tasha's options (it turns an "advanced" class into an easier one)?
I will admit playing a ranger requires planning and smart choices. but so do a lot of classes. a sorcerer that takes the wrong meta magic will have a bad time. a batlemaster needs the right maneuvers to fit the right build.
Honestly it's mostly that it's such a forced thing to make the ranger work in a way that makes them feel unique.
I've struggled with it as a player and a DM.
I recently started a campaign with a ranger who opted for the old PHB version. I even picked up an adventure that is marketed as exploration heavy (Tome of Annihilation).
It literally boils down to survival checks.... Like I'm not exaggerating when I say this.
I've read the scenarios that people have stated and still see no real benefit to the ranger unless I want to spend several hours a session doing exploration checks just to get them a time to shine... Time that the others are generally not taking part in.
The player just this week reached out to me to swap.
It's very fresh in my mind the use of the features and how the books suggest you use them it's just ultimately underwhelming.
some times the module is just a framework and details need to be filled in or added because its skill uses are implied not called out. wizards staff have stated they expect changes to be made to their books for each unique table.
sometimes a player just has a hard time may not be the ranger classes fault. Did you offer Tasha's options (it turns an "advanced" class into an easier one)?
I will admit playing a ranger requires planning and smart choices. but so do a lot of classes. a sorcerer that takes the wrong meta magic will have a bad time. a batlemaster needs the right maneuvers to fit the right build.
I agree but at the same time ranger feels to me like it does require a whole pillar for itself to get that actual ranger feel.
If they had a book devoted to the exploration pillar it would do a lot for them
They took the easier route it seems and we got Tasha's.
I think a book on rangers and wilderness crawls would be great not just for the help sorting out the meaning of the rules as written but because I'm seeing a lot fewer folks than in my generation (and it was fairly rare then) that actually spend or have spent a lot of time out in the wilds "rangering" and then end up playing D&D. I will grant that for young urban types doing ranger well is/can be hard and they may be the main ones complaining about the class. I have never found the ranger to be underpowered or lackign although there are times when it might use a minor tweak or two. but I have enjoyed playing rangers for 40+ years and expect to for the next 40+ years.
I have said why I think it's better.... You get more then just one terrains worth of information out of the spell and due to that versatility it's better.
Due to the wildly chaotic nature of DnD you could be recalling information on a beholder one minute and the stars in the artic sky the next.
Having a spell that gives you advantage on any of those things with no commitment to just one biome or one enemy type is just better to me.
Also that's up to the DM... Maybe they think a ranger might not know these things too?
It's based on playstyle and DM mentality. Maybe the magic gives you information from the weave or from your god... That's up to the DM to decide in the moment or preferably at session 0 how they will run such checks.
Unfortunately it is not up to the dm. not if he is playing by standard 5e rules. player gets terrain of their choice period. if the dm says its from the terrain they cannot deny the bonus. the dm cannot say you wouldn't know about the terrain because the character sheet says otherwise. the chaotic nature of dnd is precisely why this type of clarification is part the game. Ranger abilities are far reaching not limited like some spell is. the spell has a time limit and is tied to one base stat and uses a resource. all's spells have limited scope. all spells can be tricked or dispelled. or become incompatible due to adventuring rules and mechanics.
a ranger however can use it on wisdom or intelligence. a ranger can use it in conjunction with said spell. a ranger has infinite duration. a ranger has unique ribbon effects. its decent and compares to 4th level spells(by your own admission) and we are still talking about one of the lowest powered abilities on the ranger table. because the ranger still has other things to fall back on to solve said problem. they also have spells and equipment.
You moved really quick from, the ranger abilities from the PHB are terrible, to, it’s all opinions and personal taste.
NOT stating your opinion as a fact would help a LOT.
Never stated as fact just my opinion.
It is tho as is all checks and their resolution. DM decides what information they get.
again we are playing by 5e rules. The specific ranger class rules override the general ones of dm preview. try again.
No need.
It's in the basic rules... It's a success but what information you gather is completely DM dependant. They may feel you get some useful information but not all.
The only information you get for sure is what they state in the ability which is not what we were discussing.
We were discussing the Wisdom and Intelligence checks for your biome which have no such guarantee.
if you honestly believed that you wouldn't have tried using enhance ability over the ranger ones because it suffers that same problem to a worse extent. Enhance ability provides no guarantee checks but a ranger does. showing you are arguing preference and opinion not mechanics.
are all deniable by a dm because you don't Know them. You cannot remember what you don't know. enhance ability will never change that. but a ranger does know.
You cannot remember something you don't know. A ranger mechanically knows his terrain. a ranger mechanically knows a creature type. You will never reach a 30 with enhance ability(without adding a second feature) but you can with a ranger end of story.
Harvesting is overall is not really very mechanically supported and as of now is generally not very helpful so that part while flavorful won't do a ton.
They know their terrain but that still doesn't mean they will beat the DC to do the task at hand. It's still a check and chance for failure.
They are at about the same odds in their terrain as those who use spells mentioned.
Unless there is no check.... In which case we go back to the problem of handwaving problems which becomes boring.
Based on this I felt the features need a change.
No. Your looking at it wrong. What he's saying is that Every check covers a long period of time of active skill usage. Much longer than the spell would actually last. The truth is that checks to track and travel can be any period between 10 minutes and 4 hours depending on the needs and the decision of the DM of what is appropriate for that particular usage. It's not that you need 50 checks to cover that 4 hour period. It's that that one 4 hour period that the check covers lasts longer than the spell would last to give them that advantage.
And that's really something that is often over looked with skills and people trying to abuse things like the Guidance Cantrip and spells like Enhance Ability. They don't give any concept of how long something might actually take. They just assume only the immediate second they make the check actually matters and everything else is instantaneous in some fashion.
Overall multiple checks will result in more failures was my point. Making anyone perform multiple checks for time based skills in my opinion is not the best option.
Even the adventure modules use a single survival check to ensure you are going the right direction per day.
I understand the premise and if you want to rule this way it's fine but I don't agree myself.
but your two main arguments contradict this.
1. enhance ability suffers the same problem
2. the argument that auto success is no fun (see several pages back The quote tool is to hard to use.)
I get it I really do but if your frustrated go back to the actual game. but just because you don't like something doesn't mean its faulty. You are clearly smart enough to see the advanced connections between things in 5e but are missing out because of something else bothering you. so understanding your own playstyle and what you can work with is better than trying to make drastic alterations with rippling effects. do full research and put thought into it snap dm calls/debates are most of the problem not the phb ranger.
Play a scout and you might get some of the feel. Play a druid you might get some of the feel. Play a Tasha's ranger. They are all good as part of adventuring parties.
I started out rpgs hating tanking. it just didn't make sense to me. I would always dump con and go for a no hit(high ac) approach. but then I needed to play one because of party composition. so Instead of asking for changes or calling it stupid, I did real research. when I did I learned the fun. I learned how my hot take was limiting my game. I learned to be a better player. (I still don't want to play a paladin though. its just not for me )
Honestly it's mostly that it's such a forced thing to make the ranger work in a way that makes them feel unique.
I've struggled with it as a player and a DM.
I recently started a campaign with a ranger who opted for the old PHB version. I even picked up an adventure that is marketed as exploration heavy (Tome of Annihilation).
It literally boils down to survival checks.... Like I'm not exaggerating when I say this.
I've read the scenarios that people have stated and still see no real benefit to the ranger unless I want to spend several hours a session doing exploration checks just to get them a time to shine... Time that the others are generally not taking part in.
The player just this week reached out to me to swap.
It's very fresh in my mind the use of the features and how the books suggest you use them it's just ultimately underwhelming.
This is actually not true at all. Poison harvesting has the ability to break the damage potential out of the water. allowing low level parties to take on things way beyond the party appropriate CR.
will it work on every enemy ? No. but it can be saved and there are a lot of enemies that have poison abilities. per DMG ch8 any Poisonous creature can be harvested. some of them have ridiculous prices that could be traded for holywater, acid, fire vials or even possibly more magic items
Note: shapeshifts, magical summoned creatures and creatures with poison weapons will probably not be allowed as they are not really poisonous creatures.
Even if you can, assume only one collection attempt per body. saving it up and allowing the whole party to go nova is amazing . every weapon attack in the first round can have poison. You will destroy beholders, vampire lords, dragons, giants, mind flayers and more.
the key is planning and timing.
And the class that has boons to harvest and can recall what is immune............... Ranger.
some times the module is just a framework and details need to be filled in or added because its skill uses are implied not called out. wizards staff have stated they expect changes to be made to their books for each unique table.
sometimes a player just has a hard time may not be the ranger classes fault. Did you offer Tasha's options (it turns an "advanced" class into an easier one)?
I will admit playing a ranger requires planning and smart choices. but so do a lot of classes. a sorcerer that takes the wrong meta magic will have a bad time. a batlemaster needs the right maneuvers to fit the right build.
It did not across that way. Not from the start.
Just strong beliefs based on personal experience. A fair amount very recently.
I agree but at the same time ranger feels to me like it does require a whole pillar for itself to get that actual ranger feel.
If they had a book devoted to the exploration pillar it would do a lot for them
They took the easier route it seems and we got Tasha's.
I think a book on rangers and wilderness crawls would be great not just for the help sorting out the meaning of the rules as written but because I'm seeing a lot fewer folks than in my generation (and it was fairly rare then) that actually spend or have spent a lot of time out in the wilds "rangering" and then end up playing D&D. I will grant that for young urban types doing ranger well is/can be hard and they may be the main ones complaining about the class. I have never found the ranger to be underpowered or lackign although there are times when it might use a minor tweak or two. but I have enjoyed playing rangers for 40+ years and expect to for the next 40+ years.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It would do the forums good to upgrade your phrasing. You come across the screen as a close minded opinionated instigator.