I know I'm a little late to this bandwagon and I apologize if this was already discussed but I can't find anything but I have a question, and possibly discussion. I'm not here to bash or rant but to me, most definitely not until level 14 when it becomes a d8 but isn't Favored Foe bad compared to HM?
Granted, it's a feature so you don't need to waste a spells known (not terrible if you're not too focused on spells in the first place) but the only benefit I see over HM is that it's applied during an attack so no need to waste a bonus action.
The cons are:
Starts off at d4, which is worse. It evens out to a d6 at 6 and a d8 at level 14 but based on stats, 6 is half way, or even towards the end of many campaigns and hardly anyone gets to 14.
It can only be applied to ONE attack. A HUUUGE nerf (and the one that bothers me the most) considering rangers get multiattack or gloomstalker's first move, 3rd attack. Not even discussing hasted/fighter MCs/other sources of more attacks.
Unlike HM, which can be reapplied with another bonus action as long as it lasts. This strictly lasts 1 minute with no way to upcast and 2 casts per long rest until level 5 and 3 times until level 9 is horrible. HORRIBLE.
The bonus effects of being able to track the mark is also non-existent.
It seems that the ONLY benefit is that its not casted via bonus action but considering everything else I rather it take a full action (not really).
I guess there's a small benefit to it being a class feature and not a spell but that's so minor and situational that its worthless. Granted that I had a boss battle once where I did try to apply it to the boss herself but she countered it (I don't know if it was worth it to waste a counter spell slot or if it was a class feature. I think it maybe was immune to low level magic? I don't remember) But I ended up having to apply it to a minion instead. Focus fire to kill the minion then transfer it to the boss since that wouldn't count as 'casting a spell' on the boss.
I don't know how many times THAT would come up in most games for it to be a 'beneficial feature' and honestly, it made it a unique move to work around the ONE time ever that it did.
To summarize my thoughts. FF is something different than Hunter's Mark and while the UA made it HM with more benefits that was broken.
So what does it do and when is it useful and why is it good?
1. FF triggers on a hit with no bonus action to implement. This is big. You always get to add damage to the hit. You can cast HM and never apply it due to failed concentration.
2. From a damage standpoint its extra. You got nothing damage wise out of Favored Enemy, now you get something to do damage. (Don't want to get into the is it better than Favored Enemy here, well argued ground)
3. Stretches your spell slots. Some fights aren't worth burning a spell slot on. At low levels when you only have 1 main attack the only difference is the d4 vs. d6 and you probably aren't hitting with every attack even if you dual wield. And since you automatically get it on a hit you can get it on your round 1 bonus attack instead of only having 1 attack round 1.
4. Favored Foe stacks with attack spells. So if you are the kind of person who multiclasses with a caster or magic initiates to get chill touch Favored Foe can be combined with it.
5. Back to number 1. You can turn it on with a crit. You know you crit so turn it on. Double dice.
Hunter's Mark is still better, but HM is a core class ability masquerading as a spell (much like Hex for Warlock). But FF is different, and different in ways that are useful.
It's not hard to make a ranger or warlock without hunter's mark or hex, respectively. They can still contribute as characters. They're hardly essential spells.
To clarify, for each of those classes those spells were major design points with how the class will function. This point was probably not quite as closely watched as backstab or smite or rage but they were designed in at near the level. Another good example to a lesser extent is Spiritual Weapon for clerics.
You can make fully functional characters that don't use them, its even a lot of fun to play characters that don't use them, but from a design standpoint they are core to the class. So much so that they don't willy nilly hand it to all the other caster classes.
If they were really "major design points" then they wouldn't be spells. Hunter's mark isn't exclusive to rangers. And warlocks with the fiend patron have so many spells to choose from that hex honestly isn't very attractive, which is to say nothing of anyone who chooses either the Pact of the Blade or Tome. It's only really desirable with eldritch blast because it had so many attacks. And even then you're spending half your spell slots for...9 levels?...on one spell.
The Hunters Mark is thematically tied to how both Favored Enemy and Favored Foe work that I consider it emblematic of the class, at least, even if not mechanically required.
Ideally, Favored Foe should be the Ranger's version of the Divine Smite feature, and H.M. should be our Wrathful Smite. The ability isn't quite there yet.
Does anyone even calculate the math regarding rangers and their concentration "issue"? If Hunter's Mark did not require concentration rangers would pull WAY ahead in the DPR department, with a longbow even! The same is true for Favored Foe.
Does anyone even calculate the math regarding rangers and their concentration "issue"? If Hunter's Mark did not require concentration rangers would pull WAY ahead in the DPR department, with a longbow even! The same is true for Favored Foe.
They basically need hunter's mark or spells in general to DPR past 11th level so they are needed IMO.....
Basically if you want to maintain DPR as a Ranger you:
1. Take Hunters Mark
2. Take Conjure Animals ASAP
Otherwise you will fall behind in damage.
Now if you do not care about damage then its no big deal not to pick them. But if you are looking for damage then you do need them.
As for Favored Foe its basically only useful if you do not take Hunters Mark or you are out of spell slots. Other than that its not really worth it IMO.
Does anyone even calculate the math regarding rangers and their concentration "issue"? If Hunter's Mark did not require concentration rangers would pull WAY ahead in the DPR department, with a longbow even! The same is true for Favored Foe.
They basically need hunter's mark or spells in general to DPR past 11th level so they are needed IMO.....
Basically if you want to maintain DPR as a Ranger you:
1. Take Hunters Mark
2. Take Conjure Animals ASAP
Otherwise you will fall behind in damage.
Now if you do not care about damage then its no big deal not to pick them. But if you are looking for damage then you do need them.
That's not true. Casting hunter's mark means you're not using any of your other spells that require concentration. And there are a lot of them. Playing a ranger is a baptism by fire for learning how to use the Bonus Action. Where hunter's mark shines is when you can make the most attacks. This tends to be with TWF, but that also means you're more likely to get hit and lose concentration. Using it at range is okay, but it deals less damage. I sure as heck wouldn't want it on a Beast Master (PH or Tasha's); not when I have so many other attractive options.
And conjure animals is something you need to talk with the DM about, anyway. It rapidly becomes tedious to manage, and I don't know one DM that won't penalize its abuse.
I mean the concentration issue. Take an average of three rounds of combat with a ranger using hunter's mark and a third level hail of thorns. Lets say at level 9/10. Then compare that to an archer fighter or rogue, or a paladin with a longsword using a level 1 and 3 smite. It's about the same. The melee martials get a big bump at and past level 11, but rangers still do ok, and do well when using animals and or upcasting their spells.
Does anyone even calculate the math regarding rangers and their concentration "issue"? If Hunter's Mark did not require concentration rangers would pull WAY ahead in the DPR department, with a longbow even! The same is true for Favored Foe.
They basically need hunter's mark or spells in general to DPR past 11th level so they are needed IMO.....
Basically if you want to maintain DPR as a Ranger you:
1. Take Hunters Mark
2. Take Conjure Animals ASAP
Otherwise you will fall behind in damage.
Now if you do not care about damage then its no big deal not to pick them. But if you are looking for damage then you do need them.
That's not true. Casting hunter's mark means you're not using any of your other spells that require concentration. And there are a lot of them. Playing a ranger is a baptism by fire for learning how to use the Bonus Action. Where hunter's mark shines is when you can make the most attacks. This tends to be with TWF, but that also means you're more likely to get hit and lose concentration. Using it at range is okay, but it deals less damage. I sure as heck wouldn't want it on a Beast Master (PH or Tasha's); not when I have so many other attractive options.
And conjure animals is something you need to talk with the DM about, anyway. It rapidly becomes tedious to manage, and I don't know one DM that won't penalize its abuse.
Like so much in the game, much of which seems to involve the ranger, a lot needs to be spoken about with your DM, which is why I really think so many people have "strong feelings" about the ranger. Conjure animals can be fine for the table and effective for the ranger at the same time. That's why the SAC bit is their (although more for the pixie thing). Also, hunter' mark is a SINGLE TARGET spell, much like hex. You can't switch targets on the same turn you down a target. That's a big deal mathematically. And I think favored foes shines with either beast master as they will be making only one attack much more often then their hunter or two weapon fighting counterparts.
Most spells they get will be less damage than the output from Hunters Mark. They do have a lot of concentration spells but they are not ones that are going to compete with Hunters Mark for damage.
If you don't mind not putting out damage in line with other martial class that's fine as you get a lot of utility spells with ranger as well.
Having both allows a pc to tailor the situation to what they need. Save hunters mark for situations where you will be hitting the same enemy a lot (giants, trolls, High hp monsters) save favored foe for Mob creatures that take a lot less damage. or use favored foe as a quick replacement if you loose concentration to finish out the fight.
It is also valid to only choose one.
Take Hunters mark and Favored enemy if you plan on taking cross bow expert or a hit and run two weapon fighter or any triple attack build (even though you'll probably only get 3 every other round )
Take FF if you plan on using some of other ranger concentration spells. Example first attack with zephyr strike move then follow up with Favored foe for second attack. if you have proper sequencing you can use FF on one attack and a concentration attack spell on the same turn for almost every ranger concentration spell.
Having both allows a pc to tailor the situation to what they need. Save hunters mark for situations where you will be hitting the same enemy a lot (giants, trolls, High hp monsters) save favored foe for Mob creatures that take a lot less damage. or use favored foe as a quick replacement if you loose concentration to finish out the fight.
It is also valid to only choose one.
Take Hunters mark and Favored enemy if you plan on taking cross bow expert or a hit and run two weapon fighter or any triple attack build (even though you'll probably only get 3 every other round )
Take FF if you plan on using some of other ranger concentration spells. Example first attack with zephyr strike move then follow up with Favored foe for second attack. if you have proper sequencing you can use FF on one attack and a concentration attack spell on the same turn for almost every ranger concentration spell.
Yeah that's completely workable and z strike is great for getting into position.
My main point is that damage potential for Hunter's mark is better.
It's less utility but more damage that's all I'm saying.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I know I'm a little late to this bandwagon and I apologize if this was already discussed but I can't find anything but I have a question, and possibly discussion. I'm not here to bash or rant but to me, most definitely not until level 14 when it becomes a d8 but isn't Favored Foe bad compared to HM?
Granted, it's a feature so you don't need to waste a spells known (not terrible if you're not too focused on spells in the first place) but the only benefit I see over HM is that it's applied during an attack so no need to waste a bonus action.
The cons are:
Starts off at d4, which is worse. It evens out to a d6 at 6 and a d8 at level 14 but based on stats, 6 is half way, or even towards the end of many campaigns and hardly anyone gets to 14.
It can only be applied to ONE attack. A HUUUGE nerf (and the one that bothers me the most) considering rangers get multiattack or gloomstalker's first move, 3rd attack. Not even discussing hasted/fighter MCs/other sources of more attacks.
Unlike HM, which can be reapplied with another bonus action as long as it lasts. This strictly lasts 1 minute with no way to upcast and 2 casts per long rest until level 5 and 3 times until level 9 is horrible. HORRIBLE.
The bonus effects of being able to track the mark is also non-existent.
It seems that the ONLY benefit is that its not casted via bonus action but considering everything else I rather it take a full action (not really).
I guess there's a small benefit to it being a class feature and not a spell but that's so minor and situational that its worthless. Granted that I had a boss battle once where I did try to apply it to the boss herself but she countered it (I don't know if it was worth it to waste a counter spell slot or if it was a class feature. I think it maybe was immune to low level magic? I don't remember) But I ended up having to apply it to a minion instead. Focus fire to kill the minion then transfer it to the boss since that wouldn't count as 'casting a spell' on the boss.
I don't know how many times THAT would come up in most games for it to be a 'beneficial feature' and honestly, it made it a unique move to work around the ONE time ever that it did.
There was a whole thread on it.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/ranger/88760-favored-foe-hunters-mark
To summarize my thoughts. FF is something different than Hunter's Mark and while the UA made it HM with more benefits that was broken.
So what does it do and when is it useful and why is it good?
1. FF triggers on a hit with no bonus action to implement. This is big. You always get to add damage to the hit. You can cast HM and never apply it due to failed concentration.
2. From a damage standpoint its extra. You got nothing damage wise out of Favored Enemy, now you get something to do damage. (Don't want to get into the is it better than Favored Enemy here, well argued ground)
3. Stretches your spell slots. Some fights aren't worth burning a spell slot on. At low levels when you only have 1 main attack the only difference is the d4 vs. d6 and you probably aren't hitting with every attack even if you dual wield. And since you automatically get it on a hit you can get it on your round 1 bonus attack instead of only having 1 attack round 1.
4. Favored Foe stacks with attack spells. So if you are the kind of person who multiclasses with a caster or magic initiates to get chill touch Favored Foe can be combined with it.
5. Back to number 1. You can turn it on with a crit. You know you crit so turn it on. Double dice.
Hunter's Mark is still better, but HM is a core class ability masquerading as a spell (much like Hex for Warlock). But FF is different, and different in ways that are useful.
It's not hard to make a ranger or warlock without hunter's mark or hex, respectively. They can still contribute as characters. They're hardly essential spells.
To clarify, for each of those classes those spells were major design points with how the class will function. This point was probably not quite as closely watched as backstab or smite or rage but they were designed in at near the level. Another good example to a lesser extent is Spiritual Weapon for clerics.
You can make fully functional characters that don't use them, its even a lot of fun to play characters that don't use them, but from a design standpoint they are core to the class. So much so that they don't willy nilly hand it to all the other caster classes.
If they were really "major design points" then they wouldn't be spells. Hunter's mark isn't exclusive to rangers. And warlocks with the fiend patron have so many spells to choose from that hex honestly isn't very attractive, which is to say nothing of anyone who chooses either the Pact of the Blade or Tome. It's only really desirable with eldritch blast because it had so many attacks. And even then you're spending half your spell slots for...9 levels?...on one spell.
Come on.
Only one subclass let alone class in the game gets Hunter's Mark besides the Ranger. That is on purpose.
No other class gets Hex. That is on purpose.
I guess we have very different understandings of game design. That is cool. I am done with this line of discussion.
The Hunters Mark is thematically tied to how both Favored Enemy and Favored Foe work that I consider it emblematic of the class, at least, even if not mechanically required.
Ideally, Favored Foe should be the Ranger's version of the Divine Smite feature, and H.M. should be our Wrathful Smite. The ability isn't quite there yet.
Does anyone even calculate the math regarding rangers and their concentration "issue"? If Hunter's Mark did not require concentration rangers would pull WAY ahead in the DPR department, with a longbow even! The same is true for Favored Foe.
They basically need hunter's mark or spells in general to DPR past 11th level so they are needed IMO.....
Basically if you want to maintain DPR as a Ranger you:
1. Take Hunters Mark
2. Take Conjure Animals ASAP
Otherwise you will fall behind in damage.
Now if you do not care about damage then its no big deal not to pick them. But if you are looking for damage then you do need them.
As for Favored Foe its basically only useful if you do not take Hunters Mark or you are out of spell slots. Other than that its not really worth it IMO.
That's not true. Casting hunter's mark means you're not using any of your other spells that require concentration. And there are a lot of them. Playing a ranger is a baptism by fire for learning how to use the Bonus Action. Where hunter's mark shines is when you can make the most attacks. This tends to be with TWF, but that also means you're more likely to get hit and lose concentration. Using it at range is okay, but it deals less damage. I sure as heck wouldn't want it on a Beast Master (PH or Tasha's); not when I have so many other attractive options.
And conjure animals is something you need to talk with the DM about, anyway. It rapidly becomes tedious to manage, and I don't know one DM that won't penalize its abuse.
I mean the concentration issue. Take an average of three rounds of combat with a ranger using hunter's mark and a third level hail of thorns. Lets say at level 9/10. Then compare that to an archer fighter or rogue, or a paladin with a longsword using a level 1 and 3 smite. It's about the same. The melee martials get a big bump at and past level 11, but rangers still do ok, and do well when using animals and or upcasting their spells.
Like so much in the game, much of which seems to involve the ranger, a lot needs to be spoken about with your DM, which is why I really think so many people have "strong feelings" about the ranger. Conjure animals can be fine for the table and effective for the ranger at the same time. That's why the SAC bit is their (although more for the pixie thing). Also, hunter' mark is a SINGLE TARGET spell, much like hex. You can't switch targets on the same turn you down a target. That's a big deal mathematically. And I think favored foes shines with either beast master as they will be making only one attack much more often then their hunter or two weapon fighting counterparts.
Most spells they get will be less damage than the output from Hunters Mark. They do have a lot of concentration spells but they are not ones that are going to compete with Hunters Mark for damage.
If you don't mind not putting out damage in line with other martial class that's fine as you get a lot of utility spells with ranger as well.
Also you can switch hunters with a BA so if you take a target down you can move it.
Favored foe is worse in that you can't even move it.
Overall favored foe is worse than HM but it seems it's not intended to be equal.
No one said they were intended to be equal. It's possible to have both on a single character.
Favored Foe is merely an alternative to Favored Enemy. That's what it's meant to be comparable to.
Besides the literal title of the thread you mean?
They are asking if it's worse.... Yes it is and its not really close imo.
My point being that's not the goal of it as you alluded to.
Having both allows a pc to tailor the situation to what they need. Save hunters mark for situations where you will be hitting the same enemy a lot (giants, trolls, High hp monsters) save favored foe for Mob creatures that take a lot less damage. or use favored foe as a quick replacement if you loose concentration to finish out the fight.
It is also valid to only choose one.
Take Hunters mark and Favored enemy if you plan on taking cross bow expert or a hit and run two weapon fighter or any triple attack build (even though you'll probably only get 3 every other round )
Take FF if you plan on using some of other ranger concentration spells. Example first attack with zephyr strike move then follow up with Favored foe for second attack. if you have proper sequencing you can use FF on one attack and a concentration attack spell on the same turn for almost every ranger concentration spell.
Yeah that's completely workable and z strike is great for getting into position.
My main point is that damage potential for Hunter's mark is better.
It's less utility but more damage that's all I'm saying.