One of the best parts of playing the Thief subclass of the 2014 Rogue was being able to use a B.Action via Fast Hands to pour destructive liquids on enemies. Holy Water, acid, oil, alchemical fire, etc. This got taken away with the 2024 rules changes. Was there a specific reason given for this change?
They didnt give specific reasons for most changes.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Keep in mind that Fast Hands now allows using a bonus action to activate a magic item that's normally activated with either the Utilize or Magic action, which the 2014 version didn't. If you're in a setting with a lot of magic items, I think this more than makes up for the loss of being able to throw acid on someone as a bonus action.
I kind of wonder if they thought it through. Did they really think, hey you know the best magic item user in the game should it be the wizard, sorcerer, maybe the artificer, no I got it the thief. or did they throw it in without really thinking of the implications of a thief with a wand of fireballs or a staff of the magi etc.
I kind of wonder if they thought it through. Did they really think, hey you know the best magic item user in the game should it be the wizard, sorcerer, maybe the artificer, no I got it the thief. or did they throw it in without really thinking of the implications of a thief with a wand of fireballs or a staff of the magi etc.
I'm guessing it was intentional since, at higher lvels, Thief is supposed to be the non-spellcaster capable of using all kinds of magic items. Also, the DM generally controls the existence of such in the campaign.
Keep in mind that Fast Hands now allows using a bonus action to activate a magic item that's normally activated with either the Utilize or Magic action, which the 2014 version didn't. If you're in a setting with a lot of magic items, I think this more than makes up for the loss of being able to throw acid on someone as a bonus action.
Part of the fun is being able to do things that the DM is not expecting you to do. If the DM makes available a wand, periapt, boots, etc. that are magical, then most such items have distinct and very limited uses. There are a few exceptions (such as the Immovable Rod), but it's mostly pretty predictable what the players are going to do. Overall, a player who plays Thief by the 2014 rules knows that they are going to be underpowered compared to most other martial subclasses but chooses that subclass anyway specifically to be able to do shenanigans.
Keep in mind that Fast Hands now allows using a bonus action to activate a magic item that's normally activated with either the Utilize or Magic action, which the 2014 version didn't. If you're in a setting with a lot of magic items, I think this more than makes up for the loss of being able to throw acid on someone as a bonus action.
Part of the fun is being able to do things that the DM is not expecting you to do. If the DM makes available a wand, periapt, boots, etc. that are magical, then most such items have distinct and very limited uses. There are a few exceptions (such as the Immovable Rod), but it's mostly pretty predictable what the players are going to do. Overall, a player who plays Thief by the 2014 rules knows that they are going to be underpowered compared to most other martial subclasses but chooses that subclass anyway specifically to be able to do shenanigans.
If you have two immovable rods, can you place them in front and back of a creature to pin them in place using Fast Hands and a Utilize or Magic Action? That would be unexpected.
Keep in mind that Fast Hands now allows using a bonus action to activate a magic item that's normally activated with either the Utilize or Magic action, which the 2014 version didn't. If you're in a setting with a lot of magic items, I think this more than makes up for the loss of being able to throw acid on someone as a bonus action.
Part of the fun is being able to do things that the DM is not expecting you to do. If the DM makes available a wand, periapt, boots, etc. that are magical, then most such items have distinct and very limited uses. There are a few exceptions (such as the Immovable Rod), but it's mostly pretty predictable what the players are going to do. Overall, a player who plays Thief by the 2014 rules knows that they are going to be underpowered compared to most other martial subclasses but chooses that subclass anyway specifically to be able to do shenanigans.
If you have two immovable rods, can you place them in front and back of a creature to pin them in place using Fast Hands and a Utilize or Magic Action? That would be unexpected.
Sure, you could do that. There are a lot of tricky things you could do with the new version of Fast Hands that you couldn't do with the old one.
There are alot of losses as well. The only build that made thrown vials, caltrops, ball bearings useful for their mechanical weaknesses was a thief with fast hands. It allows using such items without costing a whole turn (wich would rarely be a decent trade off).
Another use was taking the healer feat and bonus action using healers kits. It was the only non magic healing for anti-magic zones and counters pellets proof. Not to mention it was just kinda fun playing a shady doctor.
Basic Poison application was also a use of fast hands. Making it one of the only was to do Poison changes in combat. Especially since you want to pay attention to wich enemies got poisoned because of resistance and immunity being "the most common" types.
24 reworked some uses changing the situation but in general people don't use it. Even in 14 only really creative players tried such playstyles but at least the options were there.
There are alot of losses as well. The only build that made thrown vials, caltrops, ball bearings useful for their mechanical weaknesses was a thief with fast hands. It allows using such items without costing a whole turn (wich would rarely be a decent trade off).
Another use was taking the healer feat and bonus action using healers kits. It was the only non magic healing for anti-magic zones and counters pellets proof. Not to mention it was just kinda fun playing a shady doctor.
Basic Poison application was also a use of fast hands. Making it one of the only was to do Poison changes in combat. Especially since you want to pay attention to wich enemies got poisoned because of resistance and immunity being "the most common" types.
24 reworked some uses changing the situation but in general people don't use it. Even in 14 only really creative players tried such playstyles but at least the options were there.
You're not wrong about things like acid and alchemist's fire. Although the written rules don't technically allow a Thief to use these as a bonus action anymore (because they now involve an Attack action) I'd probably still allow it in practice.
But nothing has changed about ball bearings or caltrops in that regard; Fast Hands still allows using them as a bonus action. The Healer's Kit thing you're describing is still perfectly doable under the 2024 rules. So is applying Basic Poison, though it's less special since it's a bonus action for everyone now.
One of the best parts of playing the Thief subclass of the 2014 Rogue was being able to use a B.Action via Fast Hands to pour destructive liquids on enemies. Holy Water, acid, oil, alchemical fire, etc. This got taken away with the 2024 rules changes. Was there a specific reason given for this change?
They didnt give specific reasons for most changes.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Keep in mind that Fast Hands now allows using a bonus action to activate a magic item that's normally activated with either the Utilize or Magic action, which the 2014 version didn't. If you're in a setting with a lot of magic items, I think this more than makes up for the loss of being able to throw acid on someone as a bonus action.
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I kind of wonder if they thought it through. Did they really think, hey you know the best magic item user in the game should it be the wizard, sorcerer, maybe the artificer, no I got it the thief. or did they throw it in without really thinking of the implications of a thief with a wand of fireballs or a staff of the magi etc.
I'm guessing it was intentional since, at higher lvels, Thief is supposed to be the non-spellcaster capable of using all kinds of magic items. Also, the DM generally controls the existence of such in the campaign.
Part of the fun is being able to do things that the DM is not expecting you to do. If the DM makes available a wand, periapt, boots, etc. that are magical, then most such items have distinct and very limited uses. There are a few exceptions (such as the Immovable Rod), but it's mostly pretty predictable what the players are going to do. Overall, a player who plays Thief by the 2014 rules knows that they are going to be underpowered compared to most other martial subclasses but chooses that subclass anyway specifically to be able to do shenanigans.
If you have two immovable rods, can you place them in front and back of a creature to pin them in place using Fast Hands and a Utilize or Magic Action? That would be unexpected.
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My houserulings.
Sure, you could do that. There are a lot of tricky things you could do with the new version of Fast Hands that you couldn't do with the old one.
pronouns: he/she/they
There are alot of losses as well. The only build that made thrown vials, caltrops, ball bearings useful for their mechanical weaknesses was a thief with fast hands. It allows using such items without costing a whole turn (wich would rarely be a decent trade off).
Another use was taking the healer feat and bonus action using healers kits. It was the only non magic healing for anti-magic zones and counters pellets proof. Not to mention it was just kinda fun playing a shady doctor.
Basic Poison application was also a use of fast hands. Making it one of the only was to do Poison changes in combat. Especially since you want to pay attention to wich enemies got poisoned because of resistance and immunity being "the most common" types.
24 reworked some uses changing the situation but in general people don't use it. Even in 14 only really creative players tried such playstyles but at least the options were there.
You're not wrong about things like acid and alchemist's fire. Although the written rules don't technically allow a Thief to use these as a bonus action anymore (because they now involve an Attack action) I'd probably still allow it in practice.
But nothing has changed about ball bearings or caltrops in that regard; Fast Hands still allows using them as a bonus action. The Healer's Kit thing you're describing is still perfectly doable under the 2024 rules. So is applying Basic Poison, though it's less special since it's a bonus action for everyone now.
pronouns: he/she/they